The Demise of the Affordable Sports Car
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- čas přidán 1. 02. 2024
- Through the 60s and 70s there were quite a few affordable sports cars available to those on a budget. Today the cheapest sports cars will run you well over 30k out the door. Why is this?
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Three things;
1: These cars existed when it was very viable to have _both_ the family/work car _and_ the weekend/sports car on a middle class salary.
2: These cars existed when you could buy a house _outright_ with the wages you might've earned in 2-4 years.
3: These cars existed before legislators managed to choke automotive design with stacks and stacks of regulations.
Your first two points may be true for the USA but there were very few people in the UK in the 50s, 60s and 70s who could afford to run two cars and they definitely couldn't buy a house on 2-4 years wages. I think your third point is valid, but I think a further reason that has more bearing on it is people's desire for more and more comfort, equipment and performance, leading to larger cars and larger engines.
It also helps when you can take alternative transportation besides just a car. Then you can afford a fun car, and don't need to buy a car that you need to do everything since it's the only way you can get around.
@@guindle9291 train to work, walk to grocery, sports car on the weekend!
@@guindle9291 For some this isn't an option, I have a 30 minute drive to work and there is no public transport in my town, it was either buy a reliable car or risk not having a job because you can't get there anymore
The cars have to be much safer for occupants and pedestrians - hence the higher cost of production.
I am middle class, decently employed, living below my means and I will never be able to afford a new car, let alone a sports car. The system has fucked us young people.
This isn't an example of the system fucking you, there are plenty of those examples. This is an example of being priced out of a market by the manufacturers. You should never buy a new car anyway. It's just dumb.
I am 65 and I remember the time of aforddable sports cars (60', 70'), but now days we ar living in corporate world of strangled freedom. Sorry for my English.
get a used Miata, my first one was only a couple grand but had over 250k miles on it
@@jerbear7952Why shouldn’t you ever buy a new car? Buy a used car right ? So how are new used cars going to be made if nobody buys them new? This is a bad cope. Professional people SHOULD be able to buy a new automobile to take them to their work. I make close to six figures and most of my peers are also avoiding buying new cars if they can manage it because we can’t afford it. So you’d need to be well above double the average income to happily and truthfully be able to afford a new car ?
NO. It wasn’t like this before. Something is clearly wrong.
@@fortheloveofnoise9298buying a used miata is terrible value. They’ve gotten three times as expensive in the last 10 years
yall, hear me out and this is from experience. C4 corvettes, big enough for you a friend and actually quite alot of space in the hatch, Close to the road and with 300hp, you can have a blast. All that for 7K, thats how much i bought my '95 vette.
Yeah I had a '79 and most of the parts in it were in a wide variety of other GM products. One thing you aren't going to do with an old British sports cars is find cheap parts at the junkyard or have every mechanic in town familiar with working on the drive train.
They can also go around corners...
I second this. 1993 corvette with procharger. So much fun
I got a 84 that I’m swapping a LS into it, under about 3500 total for the whole thing so far
Barf party
The real biggest challenge is safety and backwards emissions laws. Those old sports cars were so minimalist in their design that they were cheap and lightweight by default, but that meant they didn't fare well in a crash, and you can't legally sell cars like that now. In places like the U.S., small cars are also held to much more strict emissions standards (which is stupid), so anything the size of a classic British roadster would need a very carefully designed engine with heaps of electronic emissions equipment to pass ridiculously strict emissions standards, or it would need to be a hybrid, and both options are expensive.
If emissions standards could be reversed to be less strict on small cars and more strict on big ones, we'd see gobs more small fun cars on the roads. However, big gas guzzling vehicles have higher profit margins, which is why we're stuck with the royally stupid safety and emissions regulations that legislate small affordable fun cars out of existence.
Spot on
I read that's why a lot of sports cars can't be made anymore(STI) and why Toyota is going towards hybrids for emissions.
Emissions nonsense killed the mini truck and now it's a big beast or nothing.
@@jeffarcher400 Kei truck
Pretty goofy predicament you've got yourselves into. Passenger pickups the size of a light duty cab-over will never not make sense to me in most use cases. I get the "big pickup twuck safer in US highways" arguement but I'd imagine people in the trades who actually use them to fulfill a practical use case would prefer a base model single cab with more usable bedspace to actually haul stuff in instead of whatever the hell great-wall-of-china-for-a-front-end-having arse trucks most seem to champion.
Absolutely 100% agree with you. All cars are giant fat bloated pigs these days . I think it’s just a way to force consumers to spend more . Sad thing is manufacturers sell brilliant cars outside of US, but force everyone to buy these giant fat things .
At least the Toyota GT86 and Miata are as close to real sports cars as we get .
The new Z is a massive disappointment.
I would say they are bloated because of safety regulations. I'm sure making them thin and smaller like older car would actually cut down complexity.
When I drive my 2000 4runner or my dad's 2003 Suburban you can feel every corner you can see out so well.
Now when I drive my 2018 Fit, or my families 2015 and 16 Camry and 4runner. You can see how much bulk every pillar has been forced to have and how small the windows got. I am more confident backing up that Suburban than I am with my Fit. You can't see out of these new cars.
The difference between the 4unners is crazy because every door and pillar and everything is just so big ans thick. It feels kinda cool tbh. But you can't see as well.
Good one!
Blame CAFE Standards and the NHSTA for your gripes with modern cars.
@@spartaninvirginia European fuel economy and crash tests are stricter than US, especially European pedestrian safety standards.
Yet we see brilliant cars in Europe from Ford and GM.
They just refuse to sell them here in order to force consumers to buy suvs
Blame soccer moms and overprotective dads wanting MoAr MeTaL to protect lil Brayden Kayden and Xandyr.
Sad thing is that these days the internet has really skewed what people see as a fun car, so many people hate on cars for having less than like 400hp these days, and they don't realize there's more to having fun in a car than acceleration and speed
The best times I ever had were thrashing around an 87' Grand Marquis, in all it's anemic glory of 150hp and a painfully sluggish Ford AOD transmission. That and ripping it around corners with a 190hp Ford Fiesta.
True, the most fun i ever had was with multiple 54hp VW Polos i owned. One of them i bought for a crate of beer.
Seeing how little these cars cost in todays money makes me realize my generation got the short end of the stick
Well, you could buy a Miata for $13,800 in 1990 ($32,400 in 2024). So Bart's video is quite irrelevant because a brand new Miata is $29,000, but you can find an nice old one for less than $5000, and it was impossible in 1990. There are a lot of things that are way less affordable today than 30 or 40 years ago but cars really aren't.
this is literally addressed in the video lol@@chucku00
@@chucku00The Miata RF costs around 32k.
@@Kev27RS And?
@@chucku00 Just pointing out that the RF version costs as much as the 1990 Miata in today’s money!
Well, costs even more if you spec it out with options! Close to 40k.
Agreed. No OEM will sell a car for $20k while folks line up to buy the cellphone edition for $40k....
Got a 2022 Moto G stylus for around $300 off of amazon last year with a basic $40/mo service pre-paid plan that suits my needs very well of calling, texting, GPS and basic web browsing with the occasional photo shoots. Besides the only different is the OS I have NO reason to get a iPhone or the top-of-the-line $2000 smartphone when, hell even a $250 phone suits most people needs now but all the fools who want to have a snobbish non-existing social status need to upgrade to an expensive phone every year that basically did the same exact shit like the last phone. It's infuriating.
As an nd2 owner. Im still mad at toyota for not putting the s-fr concept into prodution. A cheap ~10k usd base price and ~100hp tiny coupe would have been a dream.
The S-FR would have been cool.
The MX-5 RF already does the job though in looks!
Gorgeous car!
3 months after your absolute correct statement it is happening Toyota is doing it
I own a 1991 Honda Beat. It's the antithesis of the modern American car market and I love it for that fact. Coming off of a motorcycle, the safety isn't much of a concern to me compared to the sheer joy of 9000rpm on a naturally aspirated motor with ITBs in a car that weighs under 1700lbs.
Honda teased an S1000 based on the S660, but didn't bring it to fruition. Yamaha showed off a small, 1.0L mid-engine sports car, but that was killed by a change in management. Now, rumor is, Toyota is considering a stab at a small displacement, mid-engine sports car with a price tag under $20k. If they bring it to market, I'll sell my Fit and buy one, no questions asked.
Under 20k usd is like 26k CAD, I'd buy that
I drive an nc Miata I look at the Honda beat or really I would want the autozam but it's just a little too small for me I'm 6'1 I'm good unfortunately.
@@chasemoore1281 Beats are actually pretty roomy, height-wise. Only thing you'd have to consider is putting in a dished steering wheel. I had the factory Momo Ghibli steering wheel, which is a flat face wheel. I had to take my shoes off to fit my knees under it, but after installing a Momo Mod.Drift, which has a 3" dish, I have a ton of room. I'm 5'10", but I've had people well over 6' drive it with no issue.
It is the crash test requirements that killed the sports car. Instead of a humongous engine they had light weight, about 600kg. Today even small cars like a Toyota Yaris weigh over 1100kg
You're partially right. Mazda (mx5) and suzuki (swift, under 1000kg) prove it's still possible to make light cars.
They both weight almost double what a Lotus Elan does and I'm sure the R&D and manufacturing costs needed for them to pass crash and emissions testing increased the price.
And yet porsche cayman is not fat pig like m2. Nobody calls porsche "unsafe"
As someone who just drove her 1967 Triumph GT6 today, it’s not so much the test requirements, it’s the fact that everyone else on the road drives a freaking monster truck! I’ve known Miata owners who have given up despite their love for the car, and sold it for an SUV because they just can’t take it anymore! Heck, my daily driver is a large modern full sized family sedan and it is still dwarfed by your average vehicle on the road. Trucks, SUVs, a few crossovers, and then the ones that are lifted. You know how HIGH that bumper would need to be just to protect one’s self from a truck that only goes to the grocery store and back? It’s stupid! If you look at how big passenger trucks used to be in just the 90s alone, why do they need to be that big? Why did the industry trick consumers into buying these in the first place?
@@UmmYeahOkI believe Not Just Bikes has a video on this. If not, many others do. It basically comes down to three reasons:
1. Big body on frame SUVs were marketed as macho for men, they were shown off roading, hauling, and carrying things. To women they were marketed as being safer and more practical for them and their families. This convinced thousands of people who will legitimately off-road, tow, or haul anything significant less than 10 times in their lives to pay significantly more for something that can. SUVs *are* typically safer against smaller vehicles in head-on collisions, but when losing traction during a sudden turn, road surface complications, or facing collisions from the side and rear, SUVs have a MUCH higher rollover risk… so in reality they are not the rolling safe havens people think they are.
2. Emissions standards have gone back all the way to 1970s, and they are *good*! If you’ve seen pictures of the valleys in California cities and NYC streets you would understand. The air was filled with so much pollution that it would easily put down an asthmatic person in minutes or hours.
There are also fuel economy standards like CAFE which basically force an automaker’s vehicle lineup to have a certain average MPG rating or higher, and it has only gotten stricter with time. This further reduces the pollution in our air which is always good, the problem is that this CAFE standard is *imposed* on vehicles classified as light trucks of a certain weight or higher, this has led to automakers making more and more big, heavy vehicles like the F-150 and Escalade over time- which already command higher prices per vehicle. The smaller trucks like the Ranger and the ones Mazda sold are gone, as a much larger truck will not drag down the CAFE MPG rating which would lead to penalties if dropped below the standard.
Basically, smaller cars already sell less because people are buying more larger vehicles, *and* they affect the CAFE rating. Less incentive for them to be created.
3. This is going to be several reasons instead of just one.
One big reason is the state of the economy. The average household simply has less money these days. It’s not as often that you see the dad with the big four door sedan or station wagon he dailies to work and family trips, his sports car, and the mother with her small personal car… often only one car, or at least one *new* car can be afforded… and it’s probably not going to be a sports car, or small car, but a big, utilitarian SUV or truck that can do everything. If a dad needs something *new and trouble-free* that can move him, his wife, and two- three kids… it’s not going to be a BRZ, Camaro, probably not a Camry or Charger either, it’s going to be a big SUV or truck.
Another reason is the modern disdain of driving. There have always been people who see driving as a chore, but especially now with modern traffic, crumbling roads, and lack of a need to leave home for entertainment. This demographic will certainly not buy a fast, expensive, loud, stick shift car… but most likely a CR-V, Rogue, Equinox… etc.
Most automakers have come up by first selling simple, affordable, reliable economy cars, then perhaps light trucks and SUVs, then luxury vehicles… but sports cars almost always come dead last. They have the smallest demographic and cost the most to design. This is still true today. For all of the reasons listed above as well in points 1. and 2. Many modern sports cars are joint creations between two companies who both save money together. The FR-S, 86, and BRZ are Toyota and Subaru’s joint creations. Sports cars are expensive to produce and have a smaller and smaller buyers market.
Sports cars perform better when kept small and lightweight… this does not go well with modern crash safety standards. One of the reasons why the Viper was discontinued was the need to fit more airbags into what is really a small car, and its poor sales… it also barely passed emissions standards on its last generation with its DuoCam technology.
You’re not wrong in the Fit suggestion because today, compromise is needed. We have a ‘14 Mazda 3 - base model, no less - and handles great. Under 10K used. 40mpg
But SUVs became the status symbols years ago. Weird.
Fiat actually made a car based on this concept (Fiat Barchetta) and it is in my opinion one of the best bang for your buck cars you can buy today
@@henninghedstrom3554MGF is another example. But it's about new cars here.
My list would be: Miata, Alpine 110. No idea why I should have a bigger or faster car.
@@asphalthedgehog6580 to overtake easily? to merge easily? etc
British know how to make a car thats fast everwhere
They just don't have the funds
@@clarksonoceallachain8536 depends. BBR surely knows how to modify nearly perfect drivers cars to perfect drivers cars. The problem always has been: British designed cars were never reliable enough.
You know what they say about TVR: you buy a car, but you have to finish the product yourself.
Yes, that would be great.
I bought an 18 month old Spitfire back in ‘74. It was my daily driver but not really up to the job. Hardy a week went by without something breaking - I loved it but it broke my heart and my wallet.
In 2002, i bought a 12 year old Japanese import Miata - Eunos Roadster on the badge.
It was my daily driver for a few years and I drove it for over 150000 miles without any issues - same clutch, one set of brake pads and just enough servicing - oil change etc.
Additionally, it was an absolute hoot to drive, even getting the tail out occasionally but in a very controlled way.
Sadly it was stolen and written off. I miss it.
It's hard to get the tail out on a Miata. Usually when you do, you end up pulling a 180 with the thing. Once they break the tire, which is really hard to do, getting it tom come back is not weasy without oversteering the thing. I know. It is a very well planted car. Low center of gravity is always a good thing. But the real joy of a Miata is to be pushed, and not pulled ! Once you experience that, it's hard to go back to a front whee drive car. Which I have thought was the craziest thing for car companies to do, all in an effort to save a few bucks. Making the front end drive, stop, and steer the car and manage the pot holes from hell, with the rear axle just for show since ya gotta have one, is ridiculous if you ask me. lol
I think the biggest issue as to why this class of light sports has died out, and as you touched on in your video, is cost. Light sports cars may have been cheap to buy, but the maintenance costs plus the fact that you could not have one as your only car meant you now need ANOTHER car. Now you're in on two cars, their maintenance costs as well as somewhere to store them which is probably way more expensive than the purchase costs on the previous two points combined. As you mentioned, wages have stagnated so the additional costs of the previous items makes the idea unattainable for a lot of people. This is also why the MX5 endures, as it is 'just enough' that it could be your only car if you really wanted to. In this current economic climate, it is the bottom floor for sports cars and this won't change until costs go down or low and middle incomes start going up.
@@punkinhoot I am simply voicing my own experience in which I am struggling to store my wife's car, my work car and my personal car all while moving between various rental properties. The work car is owned/financed by my employer and we outright own both our cars, but the cost of keeping 2/3 of these cars off the street is surprisingly expensive. Another thing I've witnessed is people buying these larger vehicles (dual cabs and the like) justify it as they can use them for work, leisure and commuting/errands. When I ask people (indirectly, to not be rude) on the cost of their purchase, they tell me they claim the increased running costs against taxes because it's an operating cost for work, in the same way someone here can claim against their electric bills while working from home. Apparently, this all comes out cheaper than owning multiple, dedicated vehicles even if they're forced to finance this single, more expensive vehicle. I haven't taken the plunge so I don't know the exact numbers, but I believe them.
As for your first point, I don't see how that contradicts anything I said. Directly post war the public had no purchasing power, car manufacturers built and sold utilitarian cars. When the public purchasing power improved, sports models started to pop up. In America where the industry and infrastructure wasn't bombed into the ground, they were able to build and export just about everything the free world needed and made a lot of money doing so. As a result the American public had excellent purchasing power post war and a small domestic industry of light sports cars existed. They were all hand built and used existing running gear, and they all went the way of the dodo the moment GM hinted at the Corvette.
To anyone who is interested in how a car is designed and built, I'd recommend the book 'Inside the Machine' by David Twohig. He's an engineer who documented his experience building multiple kinds of cars for different manufacturers, and something that really shocked me was the profit margins on 'regular' cars. They're non-existent. The idea is that single percentage profit margins with be sufficient because they expect to move so many units.
This is why while I absolutely love Barts idea of taking a proven platform like the Fit/Jazz and making a sports variant (especially because this is exactly what Honda did in the 80's with the Civic -> CRX) they simply would not be able to hit his target price point AND generate a profit for such a niche model, even with the cost of development already paid for by existing Fit/Jazz. It would be priced comparable to the MX5/Toybaru twins. Because that is the bottom floor for the cost of a sports car today, and why all the models we think of in this niche either moved upmarket (the New Z for example) or died out (Bart's example of the Camaro will be discontinued at the end of 2024). I don't even want to touch on the expansion of the supercar/hypercar market.
Proof reading this, I realise I sound like some sort of politically obsessed, terminally online individual who blames their financial situation on anyone but themselves. But if your issue is the shrinking or disappearance of certain markets or businesses, it is most likely related to the greater economic issue of a shrinking middle class. In short, until the public can afford to buy cheap sports cars, we will not see any more cheap sports cars.
Also, hot hatches and sports sedans have eaten market share. To most buyers those let you have your cake and eat it too.
My kingdom for a 2-door economy car! I've been wanting a small car (in rebellion of my town's fixation on SUV's and Pickups) that could be just a little fun, the idea that sports cars are still luxury products when you should be able to save money by taking two doors off the Kia Rio and put a couple extra options in there to have a really good cheap starter coupe is still a little galling. most people commute by themselves and most people shouldn't need to pilot a $50K wrecking ball in order to feel like their car is a good buy.
By no means a mechanic/car enthusiast/gearhead, but the last two years I've discovered I love this stuff and bought a 88' Supra and a 01' Celica GT-S. Done a ton of work on them myself and they are both miles away in driver experience and fun than modern cars. I honestly have zero interest in anything newer, Toyota just did it right back then and I don't need more.
I also own a GTS and 190 hp is more than enough for a sports car.
@@jasonhengst8897 lol I wish. 180 here in the states. It's fantastic for 2,500 pounds and I've deleted some stuff too.
@@rushnerd why did they do that? immitions mabye as far as i can tell its only in the states. im in Australia and we got the same as the Japanese
@@jasonhengst8897 Oh it's an emissions/milage thing. Same reason Japan/Euro gets all the cool stuff and US gets the less desirable JP cars, or at least back then.
I remember my old Mitsubishi Diamante was pretty popular in New Zealand too and they are still around there. I had mine like 5K miles before the tranny snapped.
Toyota and Subaru attempted this with the original FR-S and BRZ
Now they sell for the same price they were new with 100k+ miles. Ridiculous how we price our selfs out of cars
This old Boomer owned from-new several of the cars shown incl (in series order); '68 Camaro RS/SS, '70 MGBGT, '72 240z, '72 Fiat 124 Coupe, 66 Stingray coupe (sole one bought used), '74 GTV and '91 Mustang GT (all manual gearbox). These days, my '06 MINI R53 provides mountain road giggles galore when I drive that vs one of my 4WD vehicles.
Cum increased costs of technology, safety crash and emissions standards and labor since then seems more than offsets inflationary factors, IMO.
I always wanted to buy a brand new sportscar or muscle car. Just born at the wrong time, graduated High School in the middle of a deep recession in the 80’s and was laid off from the first seven jobs I had as the economy tanked. We had 60% unemployment for my age group. New cars had tripled in price from just a decade before and had half the power. Gave up and headed to school. Took me a decade after graduating High School to land a decent paying full time job that wasn’t going to imminently end but by then there were student loans followed by a family and a mortgage.
Apparently, graduating high school, going to work and buying a brand new car soon after and then every two years or so was a normal thing for Boomers as I’ve heard many relate such experiences.
From the states here! If you think about it, an entire generation is being forced to turn to used, old, and outdated sports cars that have depreciated from their original price, just to get into today’s car scene or enjoy a sports car at a young age.
Most people can’t afford to take out crazy loans or finance modern performance cars. More and more I’m starting to see people buying up NA Miatas, C4 Corvettes, 986 Boxsters, and really anything they can get their hands on. Im starting to worry about whats going to happen when the reserve of used and neoclassic sports cars vanishes..
Its kinda always been like that.
People coming to age in the 70s drove old 60s cars, 80s drove 70s, 90s drove 80s, 2000s drove 90s. Used is cheaper, only the well off buy new sports cars.
What will happen as one era ages to become classics is the subsequent era becomes the contemporary used market.
The problem is the lack of numbers. Sports cars have fallen out of fashion and sell less and less leaving less used cars of this era available.
Classic corvette is more fun than anything new on the road today 😃
My grandfather was able to obtain a Opel Kadett, MG Midget, and a Chevy Impala all while working as an engineer on a government salary. The Economy is truly not the same, but there are still hidden gems out there.
I've followed in his footsteps with a passion for affordable obscure sports cars and have owned, Miata NAs, NBs, Mini coopers, Fiat 124s.
I think companies still have the drive to make these cars, but people are so fixated on the power they lose sight of what it's like to drive a good handling car. Not besmirching Honda at all, great cars, but I've had friends with civics hop into a mini, or a miata and truly lose their mind at how a cheaper slower car can be so much fun.
Now we have really reached the end of the sports car as the Miata is the only RWD affordable car next to the GR86. Even Sporty affordable FWD sports cars are dwindling in popularity as they phase out the Ford Fiesta, leaving only the Mini cooper as the cheapest entry point.
As car prices got goofy, I’ve shifted to the motorcycle world as a youngin that doesn’t make the best money right now. Motorcycles have that raw feeling that many cars are missing these days.
Okay but counterpoint motorcycles are insanely dangerous. I know many people who have been severely injured or almost severely injured in various motorcycle crashes
Please be safe
Great video ! spot on.
The problem is that today , sports cars are not really selling.
Even the Mita which is one the most successful sports cars, is sold in puny numbers compared normal cars at 8,973 in 2023.
Compare it to corolla at 290,000 or rav 4 at 434,000 and you get the picture.
The world doesn't care about driving as a hobby/pleasure as much .. people hardly remeber what color is their car.
That's why I own a BRZ and love it so much , a rare breed indeed.
Nd miata and gr86 are keeping the “affordable” sports car spirit alive. Those cars have souls
Idk they are pretty expensive for what they are. Especially the gr86
I had a 2013 Fit “Sport” manual and loved it. I hit a deer in 2022 and it was totaled. Last year I bought a 2007 S2000 and a 1993 Civic del Sol Si manual. Both stock with
The Daihatsu Copen and Honda S660 probably would fit the bill, but sadly they're only sold in Japan.
I had a 1972 Triumph Spitfire like your thumbnail... they are NOT cheap to own! 😂
If you buy from moss they are expensive to maintain but eBay is pretty good
@yipperdipper3189 I had to rebuild the gearbox, it took 6 months to locate a new 2nd gear cog haha
When I was looking for a used car to daily, there was a 2000 Z3 BMW at the same dealership for 8.9k with 62k miles so I decided why not i’ll give it a try. Yes, it is an old BMW. BUT, it IS an old BMW. With proper maintenance it can last quite a long time. About 220 HP paired with a 5 speed manual transmission. Never in my life have I ever enjoyed a car so much. I was so surprised by how responsive it was and connected I felt to the road itself. For 8.9k and about 3k in maintenance (if paying a shop) it can be a seriously fun car that will put a smile on your face anytime you get into it. The style may not be for everyone, but it is literally a peppy miata.
Got my 1958 Sprite in the early 80s. It was my everyday car. FUN City! I lost control on a Los Angeles Freeway onramp once and didn't touch a thing. Tiny and cute., but yes, slow.
The Honda S660, a joyful k-car
Back in the mid 1970s I was in the Air Force stationed on the north side of Sacramento (Calif) at McClellan AFB.
I was in the lower enlisted ranks and so were all my friends (i.e. we didn't get paid very much).
One friend had an MGB-GT (hatchback with 4-cylinder 'tractor' engine), another had an MGC-GT (same basic hatchback with an inline 6 cylinder), and then there was the guy with a TR-250 (basically a TR-4A with a 6 cylinder in-line) in fire-engine red (when sitting in the TR-250 it felt like you were below the level of the tires).
Our base had a wonderful auto hobby shop ... run by a mid-level sergeant with a mad aversion to even a drop of oil on 'his' floor.
I learned (mostly) to read British technical English (though the idea of 'refurbishing' a fuse still causes a hiccup).
I helped my friend with the MGB-GT balance his two-barrel side-draft carburetor and made some road-trips with him .... getting to do some of the driving (on one trip we went up to northern California to the area near Mt Lassen).
Later, when I learned a bit more about those cars, I was astonished to find how little horsepower their engines were rated at.
Those cars were FUN and didn't cost much to keep in-repair so long as you had a good assortment of tools (British sports cars of that era always need adjusting) and don't mind getting dirty. Even better it kept young guys busy when off-duty.
- Paul
My NC2 Miata was used when I got it with 26k on the clock. It’s far less than $20000, only weighs 2500 lbs, handles amazing with upgraded coilovers but the stock ones are fine, has over 160HP, and the best manual transmission feel ever. Mine is also retractable hardtop with limited slip. Can’t beat it for the sports car ethos you are describing and they aren’t worn out like NA or NB cars are. Early Miatas are also expensive now for early cars in great shape. Add in the reliability and inexpensive parts and you get the ultimate sports car experience for the least money. You just have to deal with the NC body style looks- it’s love it or hate it I guess! Some can be had VERY cheap now with bad motors if you wish to do a motor swap or race the car.
The ND is great car as well!
Love the RF version!
After 5 motorcycles, I bought a 10 year old TR-4 - it kept me broke till I sold it - but down-shifting to 2nd on a hair-pin to break the rear-end loose to sear with my right foot was almost as much fun as sex! However, the one 1960's sports car I really like to have again is the 1969 FIAT 124 sport : DOHC 1438cc, 5 speed, 4 wheel disk brakes, coil springs on all 4 wheels and a top that could be taken down with one hand
Me 86 Mustang coupe with no options 5.0 5 speed is as raw and visceral an experience as I need. My 2014 GT I daily with three times the horsepower is an entirely different experience, and it ain't as sophisticated as more modern stuff.
If you live in Europe I would recommend buying a Fiat Barchetta, they are really cheap have a fun although not so powerful engine (130 hp) and are a blast to drive
Always liked those in orange!
You hit it squarely on the head.
The car would be the equivalent of the Royal Enfield Interceptor motorcycle. Just enough tech to make it reliable, but no more.
I think the most faithful "modern" continuation of the tiny British sports car was the Smart Roadster. Only downside is that in only came in automatic
My first view of this channel. Nice work. You clearly know the subject. Seems like some automotive channels these days also do Pokemon card reviews and have no idea how to pronounce car makes and models that came before they were born. Keep it up!
I'm happy to have been given (yes, given) a Triumph TR6 that I've been fixing up this last year. It was in decent condition and after all my work on it it should be a nice fun car this spring when the snow is gone. It's a perfect little cool British convertible.
A very interesting topic. I wasn't quite sure if it was a financial issue or an automotive issue. I do remember purchasing my VW scirocco in the 80s spending more than I should have. I was able to pay it off and kept it for almost 12yrs and 200,000 miles. Sold it to my who had for several yrs who then sold it to my sister. By the time she sold it we had 300,000 miles on it. We definitely got our money's worth
Awesome video Bart. When I want to feel nostalgic I take out the 91 Miata se brg. When I want to feel fast I take out the Speed Twin.
It's more fun to drive a slow car quickly than a fast car slowly.
You have a typo, I think you meant to say "slow car", not a "show car". Anyway, there's no shortage of "slow" cars, all entry level models usually are, but are they really fun to drive?
@@pyridonfaltis9761 corrected the typo. I was paraphrasing a common motorcycle saying.
@@ryancraig2795 Huh, I didn't even know it was originally a motorcycle saying... Anyway, are there even any really slow motorcycles?
@@pyridonfaltis9761 yes. I had a Kawasaki KLX250. 26 HP. A Corolla would probably take it off the line and definitely best it in top speed (the bike was good for about 120, maybe 130 km/h, tops). Anyway, in a world of 200 HP open class race replicas, or even 120 HP SuperSport 600s, many bikes are relatively slow. And if course they don't all handle like race replicas do.
@@ryancraig2795 Slow, as in lower top speed? Because I'm pretty certain most motorcycles will beat an average car in 0-60mph/0-100kph acceleration by a large margin. Even the so-called "slow" bikes. But what do I know, I've never driven one, slow or fast...
*Edit:* I checked the specs for KLX250. Even with that low hp, it's still has more than 100 hp per ton power to weight ratio, I don't think a standard Corolla can match that...
Thanks for the great content and calculating the price equivalents.
it makes me grateful my dad kept his datsun 280z all these years. driving it is like nothing else I've ever experienced. it does feel more raw and viceral, less floaty and smooth or like it's holding my hand. It's like I'm the one pulling turns, the one stopping the car, the one pushing it forward and stretching my legs. I'm the one in control, and it's both difficult and liberating.
I’m on my second NA Miata and my daughter has one too. It’s a great reliable balanced sports car.
I don't know if there is much money to be saved in a Miata. A detuned engine would not necessarily be cheaper, and saving on aspects such as the suspension or sharing a platform with an economy car would negatively impact the engine.
However, in Europe there used to be fast superminis. Economy cars with a spicy engine and go faster decals. Think Peugeot 106 GTI or fast Renault Clios.
The Fiat Barchetta was built on the Fiat uno platform and ended up being a fun and affordable sports car so it can be done
A modern Fiat 500 Abarth seems to be a kind of "old-school" sportscar - low weight (approx. 1150 kg), low horsepower (140-190 hp stock), not a lot of comfort features (no cruise control, mostly cheap interior materials, lack of soundproofing), 15-years old engine and gearbox technology, simple suspension setup (McPherson front and semi-independent rear) as well as pretty low prices for used cars. And yes, it has a convertible version as well:)
I agree with you on driving an old sports car, in 1973 as a 19 year old I bought a 67' Triumph TR4A that I bought used and really enjoyed it for a while, but went on to muscle cars soon after that, now driving a manual only 2019 GT350. Now after all these years I still yearn to have an early 70's TR6 with wire wheels and a tuned exhaust.
I had a '68 Fiat 850 Spyder I drove to college three days a week and worked on it another three days a week to keep it running. To avoid emissions controls, Fiat reduced the displacement of the inline 4 to 817cc (49.85 cubic inches). It was a great learning experience for me, and I really loved driving it. I'd love to see another inexpensive (but reliable) small & light sports car to hook the younger generations, but with the push to kill internal combustion engines I doubt we'll see one.
Agreed. I think the Miata may be the last remaining, affordable combustion sports car before we move to electricity. That said, electric sports cars might deliver their own brand of fun, but those will only become affordable once they're used and that could be some time.
Loved these little cars. Had a rubber bumper MG Midget. Go cart for the highway.
When they got too expensive used... which they are now... I switched to driving motorcycles for my spoked wheel fix.
The only current brand new options available that will relive this: Mazda 3 hatchback with 6-speed manual, Honda Civic Si (or Type R) with 6-speed manual, or ND Miata with 6-speed manual. The first two being FWD, but still fun to drive. You could suggest a Mini Cooper, but they're just so compact and a bit difficult to work on because of the size and inherent front end geometry. I'm glad you mentioned the Honda Fit. Those are the only cars that fit the bill as a really practical daily driver that are still cheap, economical, fun, and reliable. Probably the cheapest out of anything available now. Mayyyybe the first-gen F87 BMW M2 with 6-speed manual, used, to reach that budget. Thankfully BMW is offering the Z4 soon with a 6-speed manual again. Another potential option when it becomes 3-4 years older on the used market. Or a used newer Boxster/Cayman. But what do I know - I'm happy with my E28 1988 BMW M5 and 2000 Honda Civic Si as fun cars, and my 2015 W212 Mercedes E250 Turbodiesel as a daily driver.
Edit: If you just want a really reliable fun car, just buy a used NA/NB/NC Miata, even as a daily driver. Then buy an early 2000s to mid-2010s Tacoma or Ford Ranger as your second vehicle for hauling stuff from Home Depot.
When the Miata was first released, I called it an MGB, but reliable. 🤣
Yep, it follows the old adage, it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow.
There is something wonderful about elemental driving machines. It's the visceral connection to the road without hitting insane speeds. It's the quaint design from a bygone era when regulations to a backseat to unvarnished fun. Sure, power cars are thrilling, but so are go-karts. I've owned three Miatas but I current drive a nicely restored 1974 Triumph Spitfire. My British machine is mildly enhanced to adapt to modern road realities, but it still appears stock. This car is so low to the ground, I can almost reach out and touch the ground. Add the raucous four-cylinder engine, popping exhaust sounds between shifts, the distinct whiff of oil and gas, vibration though the shifter, and tossible handling make the car feel alive. All of those qualities enhance the sensation of speed and that's the appeal.
It is dangerous? Probably. Unsafe? Probably. If I get hit by an SUV, I'm squished. Hell, if I get hit by a Corolla, I'm squished. In a world of smartphone zombies, I drive with a motorcyclist's mentality of head on a swivel. Defensive driving goes a long way in avoiding accidents, but it won't eliminate all risk. And yet, truth be told, the element of danger is also part of the experience. I guess that why people like skydiving, motorcycles and car racing. A little bit of edge to your wellbeing stirs the sensibilities.
My recommendation? Find a vintage machine in decent shape and give it a whirl. Be prepared though... costs and frustrations go along with ownership. Affordability is relative so know your pain points before committing. However, once you've hit a steady state of reliability, appearance and acceptable performance, it's the fun that keeps on giving. 🙂
I loved British sports cars, growing up in the 1970's. All my friends wanted a muscle car, but I wanted a Triumph or MGB. What you have said here describes why I wanted them. Simple. Visceral. Now, I also want dependable, so I have a Miata.
That car could have been the toyota S-FR, a small rwd coupe with only 130hp which was like a cheaper version of the miata. It was shown as a concept in 2015. Very sadly it will never be produced. Such a shame.
There was also talk about an european/international 1000cc version of the honda S660.
Stupid regulations and poor customers taste (SUV...) killed those very promising cars.
You have summed up my opinions perfectly. I own a mk1 midget and it's the most fun car in the world. I have always felt like we are missing a true sports car in the modern market. I know it is a lofty goal, but I am studying mechanical engineering with the goal of one day starting my own car company. I want to build a 1700lb sports car that will be a true successor to the midget.
I support you 👍
Even worse for off-roaders. My first job out of college paid ~40k. I bought a mid tier four door Jeep Wrangler for $26k, or under $30k out the door. Fast forward a decade or so, and comparably priced Jeep has an MSRP of $60k.
In my state (MD), the average entry level salary for a college grad is only $45k. Also, total cost of tuition has doubled.
Cars are just too expensive for young folks to buy new. Well, financially sensible folks, anyway.
Sports cars need to be small, reasonably potent and rear wheel drive, so what are you going to base it on?
All the 60's - 70's stuff were parts bin specials based on the mechanicals and sometimes lightly modded floorpans of small saloons . Who is going to spend a small fortune converting the floorpan of a modern hatchback to RWD, then chop the roof off and be able to sell it cheap to a very limited market, especially when Mazda has that market sewn up.
What we need tofay is mas transport as the main way of transport. Then a personal car is an option, not a nevessity. Therefore there will be less cars on the road, less gigantic SUVs and more focused drivers.
Did I mention it will akso cost less? You will decide when to use the car and spend on gas and also decide when to repair your car if something brakes.
Having cars for less than 20k new is already hard enough. Sometimes some not sports cars, like you said the Fit, have more to give than on first sight.
I saw the news that Ivan Espinosa (Nissan global product planning boss) said in an interview with Top Geer that “car manufacturers - in general - have forgotten about the passion for cars” and Nissan wants to create an entery-level sport car for a young audience
My grandpa bought a dissambled triumph tr6 about a year ago and put it together in his garage. It’s such a simple car. Annoying to work on because it’s all crammed into tiny spaces but Its such a blast to drive. Even if it’s extremely slow
for some reason, i see MG's and Triumphs absolutely everywhere where i live, i may just have to grab an MGB
The thing that always boggles my mind is the fact that the government is all "no you cant buy an affordable kei car its not safe, no these cars arent safe they have to be BIGGER" but then they let people drive sports bikes at 120mph and have mopeds/scooters on the roads unlicensed and just blatantly disobeying traffic AND pedestrian laws. They need to make up their minds (they never will)
Great video. I think something that's important to remember is that even a 10-20 year old small sportscar today is going to perform better, be more reliable, have more creature comforts and last longer than buying a brand new cheap sportscar back in the 60s. So in terms of overall value for the dollar, things haven't really changed very much, you just can't buy it brand new anymore.
Couldn’t agree more these new cars are way too much, I was looking at classic cars but I started noticing that those prices went up too, I settled for a 89 celica and it’s a semi fast car but like you mentioned I can push it without going over the speed limit it’s fun handles well and it’s stylish, looking at todays “affordable” sports car like a GR 86 these things are expensive and not worth it
I think the autocycle really fits in here. A slingshot starts in the low 20’s and the newer ones drive a lot better than the first generation
If you own a sports car light a miata, sprite, never sell it. I can say this as a major OEM engineer, cars as a segment are dying for big tech "mobility" appliances, and the enthusiast segment is shrinking every year. I bought an S2000 last year and will keep it forever, anything newer and faster feels disconnected, driving for you almost. Look for something garage kept and well maintained by the previous owner; they will never make anything as good as cars from 20-50 years ago to drive.
When someone crashed into me and totalled my 266 HP V6 Infiniti, I bought a manual 2.4L 2013 Fiat 500 convertible with 101 HP in mint green. Blasting through all these gears and driving it like a super fast go-kart rather than a slow car is the most fun I've ever had behind the wheel of a car. Second only to the 2015 Fiat 500 sport that I tested when I was shopping for my car. Seriously, everything you described at the end of the video describes my car. It also has stiff steering and heavy pedals, and was in nearly brand new condition for $7,000. It doesn't look like a car guy's car at all, but I'm having a blast.
I drive a 1994 mk3 golf 1.6 with 75 bhp. I have it polybushed on coilovers with strut braces front and rear and it’s infinitely more fun to rag around than my 2021 abarth 595
I raced go-karts starting when I was 8 and have always loved performance driving. I also own a 2015 Honda Fit (LX 6 speed). It's way more fun than it looks and I wish I knew how good they were yesrs ago. Had I known what I know about them now, I would've bought one brand new back in 2017.
surprising to most people the first and second gen mazda3 a are the lightest sedan on the market and still come with a respectable ~150hp, with the right spec and used they are close to the fit! and might have better handling due to the multi link rear suspension
Regulation and required safety features have really made this a harder thing to accomplish. Pair that with the fact that if cars this fun existed those lower price points, other lower priced cars might not sell as well from the manufacturer's own product stack. I do wish this existed though
It’s also normies hellbent on buying crossovers, dealers make more money on higher trim cars, and clout culture making people obsess about specs
Cannot agree more, I have a 1976 triumph spitfire that is far more fun to drive than any modern car I’ve been in. It’s sad to see that every new car has to be as big as a house crammed full of electronics that separate you from the raw feel of the road and cost a fortune
I restored 2 Datsun roadsters 67 1/2’ and 69’ in the late 80’s. Lots of fun but pretty dangerous being so tiny. I moved into 72’ 240Z 😊
I miss the small family coupes that common brands like Opel and Ford built in the 70s. 4 max 6 cylinder, light, good handling and space for a small family but cool styling and a sporty feel for cheap. Opel Manta, Ascona, Kadett, or Ford Capri, Escort ... those were fun, cool and easy.
That's a great analysis; thanks for posting! In addition to what others have said, I think one reason sports cars are more expensive is because all cars are more expensive. Things like power door locks and air conditioning used to be luxury options, now there are standard. So much is computerized. Car buyers have gotten used to this level of complexity and cost.
Here are some prices I remember from the '70s:
VW Bug - $1990
Fiat 850 Spyder - $2190
Triumph Spitfire - $3000
Triumph TR6 - $4000
For reference, in '76, Dad bought a Ford LTD for $5000 out the door.
For our fantasy of a bare-bones, affordable sports car, check out the Toyota Hilux Champ. I know, it's a truck, and there are no plans to sell it in the U.S. Presently it's $13,000, and it's not hard to imagine a roadster sports car body on that frame. It wouldn't be sophisticated, but it would be fun. Maybe if we all write enough letters to Toyota....
I have a 2012 Mustang with the 5.0 Coyote V8 with more power than can be used practically in every day driving. I also have a1980 MGB that makes a fraction of the Mustang’s power. The MG is by far the more fun car to drive precisely for the visceral experience you’re describing.
The base Scion tC was right at $20k, fun, a little different looking, and a Toyota at heart. 😍
Hiya Bart. In Japan, they absolutely exist. Go look at the Honda S660.
I’m 23, always loved the classic old, top-down roadsters. The shape, long bonnnet, slight coke bottle hips, rwd, and not over-engineered just like the old cars made it a no-brainer for me to get so I just went all out and got a new one. It cost me most my savings but so happy with it, and to be driving a sports car so young.
One day I dream of getting a jag e-type, classic corvette sting Ray or a cobra.
My first sports car was a 1964 Triump TR4. Lots of fun but always leaked oil. My second is a 1980 Mazda RX7. Bought it new and still drive it to this day. It was my daily in the beginning, but needed a 2nd after getting married. I hope Mazda brings back a rotary sports car, but doubt that it would be just the basics. The fanciest gadget on my RX7 is the motorized antenna. I didn't get air because sports should not have it! Just the basics. I love driving it and feeling the road and listening to the engine with mo radio playing.
I drove a first gen MX5 once, was my first time driving anything that came sporty from the factory so I was pretty hyped and its reputation for being very raw made me look forward to it a lot. I've never been so disappointed by the lack of feel in a car, I'm sure it would've been fun sending it in the corners which on my first drive I wasn't going to do but it just felt so boring to drive because flooring it did nothing exciting, and I drove a slower car at the time so it definitely wasn't a lack of power. Granted coming out of a 1987 Renault 5 non turbo with a stripped interior, cage and basically a rally car is a pretty high bar for raw, but I expected a lot more than I got, now owning a gen 1 MR2 it also feels much more fun in every way than that MX5. Great cars don't get me wrong, but it ain't for me
They did a comparisson of all the supras on Donut and the conclusion James came to is that he really, really likes the new one, but he wants to feel like he's going trough a corner fast enough to kill himself, not actually go fast enough to kill himself, and so the mk3 or 4 (been a while since i watched it, I can't remember) took the cake. I think that really captures what you're talking about here, and I agree. I love the hell out of my MR2. The outdated naturally aspirated 2.0l might not be that powerful, but in a car that's about as big and heavy as a matchbox it's plenty enough and even tough there are cars that corner way better and are way faster today, I've yet to sit in one that would feel as good and confidence inspiring in a corner, both as the driver and the passenger.
Two words: Mini Cooper. The body weight on the bugeye sprite makes its handling very different from the midget. My personal favorite from British Leyland is the Spitfire.
A cheap, lightweight sportscar would be great! With 125 horsepoer, 800kilos and a simple construction it would be loads of fun for 20k. The problem is the pedestrian protection in the front making it huge, the 30 airbags, the zonal AC, automatic transmission with 11 gears, adaptive cruisecontrol with radar, auto-headlights, BOSE soundsystem, 30 inch ipad dashboard controls, heated electrically adjusted seats with memory, 400 kilos of sound deadening, triple-layer tinted electric windows, raised rideheight for better road clearance to appeal to soccer moms, 800 liters of trunk space, 21" wheels, the 5 extra seats and the 500hp engine that is needed to propel the now 1800kg SUV-crossover... would make it cost 80k instead of 20.
This is why I say Honda’s early (pre-turbo era) Type R models are PERFECT. You had small, lightweight sports cars with high-revving, naturally aspirated engines that were a basically street-legal race cars, and you could still get them at an affordable price. It’s a shame they were (mostly) never sold in America.
I see your point, the “modern” equivalent to purchasing a “cheap sports car” is buying an old sports car and modifying it or resorting it. All the new cars totally lack the driving experience that people crave. I’m restoring an s13 240sx, it’s my “modern equivalent” to a cheap sports car. Bought it for 5, about to sink 2 more into it. It’s my affordable sports car. Restoring older sports cars is the only option we have. It’s the only thing that is every going to give us the driving experience we crave.
I've got a 85 Pontiac Fiero GT as a fun car and I'm loving it. Enough power to be enjoyable, easy enough to work on with most parts still available and always gets comments when I take it for a drive. Has enough trunk space for a grocery run but it's a second car so more cargo isn't needed, though it could carry a decent load if I used the luggage rack. I paid a little bit above market at 10k for mine since it was in great shape with only 24k miles, but good looking and running ones can be had for ~6-8k. People love to engine swap them but the v6 is working just fine for me, sounds amazing too. Only affordable mid engine car you can buy unless you want to roll the dice with a high mile Porsche boxter.
MR2 Spyders can be had for pretty cheap as well.
These are exactly the reasons I got a manual, base, Honda Fit in 2011. And then a Miata... And a second Miata... and a then an Alfa Spider showed up.
I may have an addiction...
4:33 that’s especially true in regards to government regulations. It’s impossible to build a light, cheap sports car because of government laws on safety and what should be considered “barebones” for a car. Some of it is small and kinda necessary, like airbags and as late as 2018, backup cameras, but all of that adds up. It makes the cars heavier and all of that tech eventually adds up to the cars costing more as well.
Backup cameras are absolutely not necessary, that's one hill I'll die on. If you can't use your mirrors, you have no business having a license.
@@ThatWolfWithShades according to the government, they are. Doesn’t matter how you feel about it.
BMW z3 can be bought pretty cheap now and they are great little sports cars. Rear wheel drive, naturally aspirated two seaters
Since I saw it for the first time in 1958, the Austin Healey Frogeye Sprite was and is my dream car. Fortunately I owned one in the 1970s. And it was really one of the best cars I ever had, albeit not the ideal car for everyday use. A possible replacement for the Sprite was the Reliant Scimitar SS1 in the late 1980s. With the 1400 cc Ford engine and an excellent chassis it was (almost) as much fun to drive like the Sprite. Unfortunately Reliant was to small to turn this car into a success. The 'real' modern replacement for the Sprite was the Suzuki Cappuccino. Its small 660 cc turbocharged engine was superb. But again, due to its size it was not the ideal car for everyday use. The best compromise for a real sports car which meets the demands for everyday use as well is the Mazda MX5 (Miata in US, Eunos in Japan). For the last 25 years I had 3 of these.
anyone know if the honda s660 is like this? i know its really slow and weak but im curious if it handles like a go kart
I have 2 Ford Fiestas and love them. A 2015 1.0L Ecoboost and a 2016 ST. I love them bc they feel like little sports cars. They’re just hatchbacks instead of roadsters.
The S660 is literally what you described. A small, comfortable, fun and cheap car. Shame they stopped production
The thing that's changed is other, quite average and mundane cars having got so much faster. I personally think that a modern 100hp sportscar would be frustrating on todays road. This is kind of my issue with the previous Toyota GT86, beautiful looks but the straight line performance of a small hatchback.
I love my NB miata. I always will. I completely agree with you. The ethos of lightweight, spritely little cars is something that's sorely lacking in today's cynical, 'bigger is better' car market. The only cars that really fit that bill anymore are the miata and maybe the 86, although both still end up being around $30k. I'm excited to hear that the MR2 seems to be coming back, but am honestly really disappointed that it seems to be following in the steps of the SW20 MR2 as a high power, heavier, and costlier offering, as opposed to the cheaper and lighter AW11.
There are a lot of really cool sporty Japanese kei cars that would be really cool to get over here in north america.