About Overtraining
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- čas přidán 29. 08. 2018
- So let's talk about Overtraining. Who's at risk? How can it occur? Does it actually exist? Don't forget to let me know about your experience with this subject down below, would really appreciate your input!
About Overtraining by Mani the Monkey
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I have quite a long recordord of local overuses like tennis and golfers elbow, impingement, etc. I agree with you that the cause was often not just in climbing, but also in bad habits (bad computer posture). However I would not call that overtraining but rather overuse. In my opinion overtraining is a more systemic condition and overuse can be a result of poor regeneration due to overtraining.
When I was in an overtrained state there was always a component of constant tiredness, emotional instability, weightloss and so on. I totally agree with you that stress and sleep are much bigger contributors to that condition than training. Especially because climbing stresses local and doesn't 'shocks the whole body system'.
Long comment :-) could have gotten even longer.
Thanks for that episode.
Try doing some lacrosse ball massages on your outer and inner elbow. And try some nerve gliding. Kinda too been ailing with elbow issues in the past. And try high rep curls extensions light load for your elbows as prehab rehab.
@@Asadc1995 Thanks, but at the moment I'm fine.
I found antagonist and mild concentric exercises helpful. Like you said massages are also quite good, as well as stretching, taping, Tigetbalm, Arnika or NSAIDs (in the early stage, they are becoming more controversial though)
I think I've experienced some form of overtraining, began climbing about 18 months ago and got really into it and trained too hard too early. Eventually I got into a state of feeling constantly tired/weak and my limbs felt inflamed all the time even when not climbing (when doing the dishes etc). Stopped training hard for about 1-2 months and it got better, haven't had any major problems since due to listening more to my body and letting it recover sufficiently in between workouts which has allowed me to progress faster as well.
Keep up the great content, Mani!
Overtraining isn't about the intensity of a single session, it's about the accumulated volume of training in relation to recovery over a longer period of time. When one train, one breaks down muscle fibrers etc, that's one reason why one's weaker after a session than before. And when one stops training recovery sets in and those fibres starts to get repaired, and if done correctly there will also be some sort of super-compensation. But without adequate rest one will simple keep breaking down the body and never building it up. And first signs of overtraining aren't injuries, it's general fatigue, worsened mood, body stiffness and a decrease in performance. And as someone said, if overtraining doesn't exist, why don't we do maxhang-sessions 3 times a day everyday?!
Agree with everything you said here. I like mani's videos but this just screams bad advice. He also states in anothrr vid that you may need extra rest between sessions if going hard, erh yes that makes sense otherwise guess what you overtrain.
This is what i like to hear! Be healthy and listen to your body! This motivates me even more the live like a climbing monk!
As always Mani, a very logical and comprehensive explanation. Everything you said makes perfect sense and is straight to the point. The body is very intelligent in it’s own way and will tell us everything it needs, we just need to listen to it.
Hey Mani,
thanks for sharing your personal thoughts on that matter. I think, once one overtrained the recovery process takes like ages!!! (I am still recovering from a A1 Ringband pain)
Keep up your weekly uploads and of course -keep crushing!-
Great video Mani! Once again you speak the ugly truth that no one wants to hear: Get rid of your vices, stop drinking, smoking or getting high and none of this can happen if you stay in the same circle of people that constantly do those things... I myself am trying to stay away from drugs and alcohol, but lately realized it is only possible if I stop hanging out with my circle of friends that are doing all that stuff. Thank you for giving us courage and inspiration.
I get what you're saying Mani.
I have been trying to push my training threshold recently.
The limiting factor has been healing time between sessions.
I'm nearing the point where I can train 2 of 3 days consistently. But if I had pushed it too much in the early phases I would have been injured or so sore that I would have been stopped from training for a few days and set back to zero.
Personally I view overtraining as "the point of diminishing returns". Where more work equals less gains.
For example I was doing long mountain routes with several hours of walk in for 5 days a week this summer. On the 6th day I was so sore that I knew if I did another day I would be wiped out for a week to heal.
That's just my definition. Training so much, too quickly, that you are forced to stop training for a long period to recover.
Currently I'm at 2 days climbing, 1 day healing. If I pushed it, I know i would do myself an injury. Muscles grow fast. Connective tissues condition slowly. Iv not had any climbing injuries so far. Hopefully I will keep it that way!
If ever you're in Snowdonia, look me up!
Nice one mani Reading the comments etc maybe a follow up episode 👍
Can u overtrain if u don't train?
Hi, I have been climbing for about 1.4 years now, your videos have helped me a lot from the very beginning, love your stuff!
I had a climbing session in which I did my normal warmup routine, started climbing a some v4-5s and got the worst pump ever! 1.5 hour session.
After that I made a break played some ukulele and started climbing again working on 2 v6 problems (4 hour session) the pump was gone at the beginning of my second session!
Would love if you did a video about getting rid of the pump because I’m clueless to what had occurred in that session😅
i yust have to remember the Chec-guys that went up every morning,after a heavy party in the Refugio in El Chorro.Many of these guys climbed 8b"s and 8c"the next (same) day.They had a very good social live,so to say...i"m talking about late 90"s...
I think one of the main problems for me is I do not train (enough), i try to do boulder problems that leads to too much "max stimuli" this again lead to something that can resemble the symptoms of over training imo. This is something I am trying to figure out.
In addition to what you say, overtraining can probably only happen if don't have a reasonable training plan or that you have very little knowledge about training/periodization. And also very little knowledge about your usual performance. For example, when someone knows that he's able to hang one two holds for 8s and starts a training one those holds with a 4s hang...it definitely triggers an alert.
Hey Mani, I´m a month into bouldering and climb 3 times a week. My social life and stress is very well. I would like to train more (4-5 times a week). Think that can be done? And what can be done aside bouldering on "rest days" to improve climbing? Thanks! :D
I have recently come to an epiphany regarding my training volume, which is that I have blunted my performance gains through excessive training. I consistently consume caffeine in the form of coffee and yerba mate, which I do believe interferes with natural physiological feedback mechanisms which normally would generate important biological signals such as fatigue, hunger, thirst, etc. I have come to the conclusion that I have been engaged in an unsustainable training pattern: high-volume, medium to high-intensity, high frequency. This has resulted in chronic overuse injuries, mainly in the forms of elbow tendonitis (epicondylitis) in my right elbow, and partial TFCC ligament tearing in my left wrist. These injuries have been especially precipitated by power-endurance bouldering circuits consisting of 40-50 total problems of 5-8 moves each in the submaximal range (V4-6, my limit is V8/9). My conclusion is that I have an affinity for this type of training not because of its objective efficacy, but because of the purely subjective, positive psychological feedback provided by reward sensation.
Rather than electing to train low-volume, high-intensity advanced exercises which would more than likely prove to be highly effective and much more appropriate for a climber with my level of experience and performance output, I have chosen the easier, softer way involving an erroneous assumption that "more is better." This is a common fallacy among athletes training in any capacity. A much more intelligent strategy, I believe, would be increased duration of rest intervals, coupled with concise, disciplined, high-intensity training exercises which would truly provide effective training stimulus. For me, this means summoning the courage to implement new, unfamiliar exercises with a steep learning/performance curve and high probability of failure/frustration. One-arms, campus exercises, max hangs, front levers, etc.
It seems to me than outside of base-fitness ARC-type training periods (in which "more" truly is "better", to a certain degree of course), high-volume training should only be an exception to the rule, utilized in circumstances such as training work capacity for an upcoming performance trip in which one will only have a 3-day window of consecutive climbing days to complete a limit project, for example. Hope this is helpful to someone out there, and thanks Mani for all the content you work so hard to publish!
-Kyle HT
Oh, Mani, I love your advice, but this one is wrong. Its not fatigue, although that can contribute to a body breakdown. Tendons, ligaments and muscles are physical things that can be pushed past a healthy point...think of how many soccer players damage groin and knee joints. I have a friend who was climbing at a high level, campus boarding every day..his elbows are shot.
.. How is it that so many people are interpreting his advice differently? Surely if you're listening to your body you won't train through tendon pain. Wasn't that the main takeaway from the END of his video? Listen to your body and balance your life outside training? Did you get to that part?
I agree with N7Titan, I think Mani was trying to say most people will not reach an overtrained or overreached state because they'll either stop themselves because they're too tired or they'll get injuries before that point. True overtraining doesn't necessarily involve injuries, it's a large drop in performance due to a imbalance of exercise to recovery. I've never been overtrained, but from what I understand you feel like you have no juice in the tank anymore. And despite resting, it can take a few months before you feel "unpumped" again.
What can be bad with few spliffs before going to sleep?
How many hours a week should you be climbing before you incorporate things like hangboard/campus board
If your still progressing with climbing alone, then just climb, don't add something just for the sake of it.
Mani, I feel you need to read a little bit into cellular biology biochemistry to understand the phenomenon better. At the cellular level organellas (functional apparatus ) of the cell can only function successfully at certain pt level and anabolic processes (general building up process, including building of muscle fiber unit - myofibrils ) occur only at very narrow ph levels when cellular enzymes are getting activated. With overtraining, the lactic acid is building up above this range (for different people it happens at different speed because genetically we all are able to metabolize lactic acid at different rate) and at this point it starts destroying organelles in the cells because different catabolic (destroying used up tissue) enzymes are becoming active.
It is a very simplified model, but and of course you can read more about it. Nowadays all those conversations about "body knows what to do" are not very rational, just because a lot of scientific research has been done in athletic adaptation all over the world and its results have been applied successfully in training athletes in order to avoid overtraining. The results and articles are public. Just dig a little further on the topic and you will get a much better explanation of what is going on.
You ever come to red river gorge kentucky let me know mani I get you together
"you cant overtrain, your body is going to regulate itself". this is excactly what overtraining means. wtf mani? surely you can overtrain if you are healthy but train too much. i love your videosbut it is getting tomuch opionin
and too little actual sience in my opinion
edit: basicly if you are healthy you dont need any restdays at all? come on.
I think this is often forgot when people glorify the body. Yes, the body is able to deal with pretty much anything, but it does so with very little regard for how you feel.
actually he's right, it is very hard to overtrain and will almost never occur in most people, you can read this series of articles: bodyrecomposition.com/training/overtraining-overreaching-and-all-the-rest-part-1.html/
also please stop using the lack of scientific data argument, i am a doctor in medecine and i can tell you this:
there is very litte robust scientific evidence in the fields of human nutrition and training : why ? because these are subjects of biological complex multicellular organism, and the state of the art science in 2018 has only uncovered merely a fraction of the full understanding of these dynamic systems. So ultimately it is ALWAYS a matter of opinion, and you have no choice but to bias your view on anyone's subject. If you want real hard science, you can go look at physics or chemistry. But otherwise please just accept the fact that in the field we are talking about, backing your opinion with scientific papers does not actually get you closer to the truth, it only helps you fooling people that do not have enough scientific knowledge and experience (but yet still enough to ask for it) that what you are stating is more than your personnal opinion.
Yea if you do campus boarding for two hours everyday your gonna overtrain and get injured
it's not the definition of overtraining : please read the article
A doctor in medecine that doesn't spell medicine correctly? :> Also links an 'article' that isn't peer reviewed and is actually just a blog post, your doctoring is amazing.
Additionally, you don't need to completely understand a multicellular organism to run a scientific trial on that organism, we dont completely know the biochemistry and molecular biology of humans and yet we conduct clinical trials. If you actually read medical papers or any clinical study you'd realise that pretty quickly, doctor.
If you're able to read in portuguese, here is my experience and some exams "to show for it", while running ultra-marathons professionally. oquevive.wordpress.com/2016/02/11/over-que/ . The problem with this intelligence of the body, is that you're constantly training to withstand more and more discomfort and pain which leads to a point where is hard to distinguish between actual signs of the body and just bad days. Most athletes will just shake-off the warning signs and, consequently, enter the "death zone", where you're just making it worse and prolonging the recovery period, if you're lucky to get out of it intact. It took me more than a year after this to fully recover, that is, to run even short distances without having a felling of "being drained" by it. At the worst of it, i could not walk for an hour without headaches and extreme fatigue... Lesson learned. Respect your damn body! If I may, I suggest the book "When the body says no", which came across me on that period and helped me a lot. Do remember, the one which does not rest, does not advance ;)
I think I understand your point but you really should have define clearly the definition of over training. Obviously one should listen to his body and recovers when it asks to. If not you can hurt yourself :/
I'm undertrained 😅😂
That's too much opinion considering the subject imo
Overtraining in an omnivore diet with all the aminoacids and no kcal deficit
THATS IMPOSIBLE...
Zanzara
You ... again!
Stay polite :-))
@@felixd1127 i can gi e u a selfie of my face...
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