Watching the Holland convo - I agree with HoopIntellect when he chalked it up to a possible fatigue/effort thing..when Ron locked in he could stay in front of guys and his body positioning against guys was a plus - he would use bumps and cut-offs that are a bit ahead of his age..but sometimes the bend just wasn't there, and I think that was a lock-in issue..he would defend standing straight up and feel like he could still defend that way using bumps; and that same lack of lock-in was there chasing guys . Castle on the other hand, his low center of gravity is a plus on both sides of the ball, and the effort is there - he's also chasing lesser athletes around.. Like HoopIntellect I'm a buyer of Holland's defense - I think the Gleague setting where it's a spaced court and super high pace and offenses are running you around actions - can be tough for an 18 year old to commit the amount he needs to defensively, especially with a high offensive work load
I feel like Bub has a very high floor. At minimum he’ll be a Jordan Clarkson type sixth man or D’Angelo Russell type. And more likely a CJ McCollum clone But there is definitely a chance for him to very very good as a Jalen Brunson type who is so good in the mid-range he can build everything else around it
My current big board 1a = Star potential and relatively safe high level role player floor 🤑 1b = Borderline Star potential and decent role player floor 🤩 1c = Elite role player potential/some star outcomes and various floors 😤 1d = Elite role player potential shakey floor🫡 2a= Should stick in NBA and decent to good upside 2b= Flawed players but clear path to an NBA rotation 2c= Backups/Boom or bust flyers 🤤 2d=A bench role very possible 🥱3a= Who? Maybe if I squint 🧐 3b= should this guy be an NBA draft pick? 🤓 1. Stephon Castle-1a 2. Alex Sarr-1a 3. Cody Williams-1b 4. Zaccharie Risacher-1b 5. Dalton Knecht-1b 6. Devin Carter-1b 7. Ron Holland-1b 8. Reed Sheppard-1c 9. Donovan Clingan-1c 10. Rob Dillingham-1c 11. Kel’el Ware-1c 12. Tidjane Salaun-1c 13. Nikola Topić-1c 🏥 14. Matas Buzelis-1c 15. Carlton Carrington-1c 16. Terrence Shannon Jr.-1c 17. Jared McCain-1d 18. Isaiah Collier-1d 19. DaRon Holmes II-1d 20. Ryan Dunn-1d 21. Yves Missi-1d 22. Ja’Kobe Walter-1d 23. Tristan Da Silva-2a 24. Zach Edey-2a 25. Ajay Mitchell-2a 26. Tyler Smith-2a 27. Kyle Filipowski-2a 28. Trey Alexander-2b 29. Jaylon Tyson-2b 30. Kyshawn George-2b 31. Johnny Furphy-2b 32. Pacome Dadiet-2b 33. Baylor Scheierman-2b 34. Tyler Kolek-2b 35. Justin Edwards-2c 36. Nikola Djurisic-2c 37. Jonathan Mogbo-2c 38. Cam Christie-2c 39. Adem Bona-2c 40. Bobi Klintman-2c 41. AJ Johnson-2c 42. KJ Simpson-2d 43. Jalen Bridges-2d 44. Antonio Reeves-2d 45. Jamal Shead-2d 46. Cam Spencer-2d 47. Kevin McCullar Jr.-2d 48. Harrison Ingram-2d 49. Trentyn Flowers-3a 50. Isaiah Crawford-3a 51. Enrique Freeman-3a 52. Jaylen Wells-3a 53. Dillon Jones-3a 54. Juan Nunez-3a 55. Ulrich Chomche-3a 56. Melvin Ajinça-3a 57. Keshad Johnson-3b 58. Pelle Larsson-3b 59. PJ Hall-3b 60. Bronny James-3b 61. Oso Ighodaro-3b 62. Tristen Newton-3b
I think the big difference with Holland and Castle is the sheer size and frame first and foremost, but also that Castle has a bigger passing rolodex and already uses a lot of hesitation dribbles to manipulate defenders. And so much of advantage creation is using strength to hold the defender once you create an advantage that I kind of don't care about Rob being more explosive. I think Steph will be able to play angles with his dribble to get his shoulder inside his defender then he can just use his body. (Similar to what Luka does. Obviously not saying he's Luka though.) With the shooting, Castle has shown good touch on floaters and his shot mechanics are similar to Kawhi and LeBron at that age. He has an elongated shot put motion shot and usually has his weight back. Both Kawhi and LeBron had similar issues and both shortened and compacted their shot while shooting with better balance. So it's easy to see the correction because we've seen this before. Holland scares me. His shot is kind of a mess. He has so many moving parts which is where the inconsistency comes from I think. He brings the ball in front of his face and turns the ball to square it but he doesn't really get his elbow under the ball. And he has a one motion shot but he also dissipates the energy transfer by kicking his feet out reach requires him to aim with his fingers and use his arms to generate power because the ball is falling away from the rim. It's almost like a middle schooler where he has to load up to generate the power. And even getting stronger won't fix that issue. Holland shoots kind of like Steph but that's not a compliment. No one should shoot like Steph. It's a miracle and testament to Curry's insane hand-eye coordination and fine muscle control that he can replicate a shot so complicated. But for 99.999% of players you don't want that many moving parts because it is so hard to replicate. That's why Holland's shot looks fine, especially when it's in rhythm and he's not thinking, but he still misses a lot. There's a lot of room for error because of all the things that need to go right. I think it's a complete teardown if you want the shot to work long term. More broadly, I think he's similar to Jaylen Brown in terms of how raw he is and how much work there is to do. Except Brown had a much bigger frame and was probably a little more explosive even. Castle is just a lot closer to a finished product even if he's also raw.
IMO ppl are too high on Salaun, he has a great motor with elite length and the 3pointer might translate but to what degree and what else? Not a crazy athlete. Defence is ? Passing? Creation? Not great athletically. Shot blocking? He's def no Bilal Coulibaly but he's getting that bump
No one wants to miss out on the next Giannis. And Giannis kind of proves the point: big and agile with a great motor and elite length works really well. But yes, hrs very boom or bust. In a normal draft someone like Salaun would go mid-first. Although if you trust the shot even a little his floor is a bigger PJ Washington
@@dlo3607 Giannis averaged 8 points and shot 44% in a league that was the equivalent of high end American high school. He was a better ball handler than Salaun -- though a worse shooter -- but his finishing was not good either. Idk if people remember how much of a hail mary that pick was. Giannis isn't exactly Ben Simmons athletically. Giannis was 20 pounds smaller so he moved better than Salaun but guys like Giannis and Tatum are gliders just like Salaun. (And Risacher) People seem to really undervalue fluidity but 6'9"+ 230+ wings who move like guards are a problem because they can physically overwhelm 80% of defenders. Tatum is instructive because one of the major changes he made to his finishing and driving/ball handling was to stop playing like a wing. If you watch him now it's straight line drives and he does what Giannis does. It's essentially just, "I'm bigger than you and I'm going to bulldoze my way to the rim and finish through you" Shaq couldn't finish or dribble either. That's an extreme example but being very large and coordinated and playing hard goes a long way to make up for skill in basketball And again if you buy the shot Salaun is also super safe as an oversized 3-and-D wing. The exact kind of player every team needs Everyone in this draft is bad right now so if you're betting on four different kinds of skill development anyway might as well take the guy with the highest upside
Hoops Intellect is so good 👏🏻
Yes! Love @HoopIntellect and would be lost without the film and breakdowns and projections expertly provided by @KeandreAshley
Game theory x hoop intellect amazing collab. Can’t wait for the draft
The biggest crossover event of the 2024 draft season!
Watching the Holland convo - I agree with HoopIntellect when he chalked it up to a possible fatigue/effort thing..when Ron locked in he could stay in front of guys and his body positioning against guys was a plus - he would use bumps and cut-offs that are a bit ahead of his age..but sometimes the bend just wasn't there, and I think that was a lock-in issue..he would defend standing straight up and feel like he could still defend that way using bumps; and that same lack of lock-in was there chasing guys . Castle on the other hand, his low center of gravity is a plus on both sides of the ball, and the effort is there - he's also chasing lesser athletes around..
Like HoopIntellect I'm a buyer of Holland's defense - I think the Gleague setting where it's a spaced court and super high pace and offenses are running you around actions - can be tough for an 18 year old to commit the amount he needs to defensively, especially with a high offensive work load
Been two of the best draft voices for years. Incredible collaboration
Thanks guys! Great podcast from the two of you! Two of my favorites!
I love keandre's channel, great collab
Love this crossover
Love this collab! You guys are my go tos for info on prospects and NBA content in general honestly!
Been hoping for this collaboration. Great work!
Loving the content and appreciate your hard work Sam
Sick collab!
Hoop Intellect for Commissioner
Ron doing what he did at 18 with his size and his flashes is insane, and is now underrated.
I love keandre and I love this time of year when you do collabs, the recent episode with Danny Leroux was awesome
I feel like Bub has a very high floor.
At minimum he’ll be a Jordan Clarkson type sixth man or D’Angelo Russell type. And more likely a CJ McCollum clone
But there is definitely a chance for him to very very good as a Jalen Brunson type who is so good in the mid-range he can build everything else around it
My current big board
1a = Star potential and relatively safe high level role player floor 🤑 1b = Borderline Star potential and decent role player floor 🤩 1c = Elite role player potential/some star outcomes and various floors 😤 1d = Elite role player potential shakey floor🫡
2a= Should stick in NBA and decent to good upside 2b= Flawed players but clear path to an NBA rotation 2c= Backups/Boom or bust flyers 🤤 2d=A bench role very possible 🥱3a= Who? Maybe if I squint 🧐 3b= should this guy be an NBA draft pick? 🤓
1. Stephon Castle-1a
2. Alex Sarr-1a
3. Cody Williams-1b
4. Zaccharie Risacher-1b
5. Dalton Knecht-1b
6. Devin Carter-1b
7. Ron Holland-1b
8. Reed Sheppard-1c
9. Donovan Clingan-1c
10. Rob Dillingham-1c
11. Kel’el Ware-1c
12. Tidjane Salaun-1c
13. Nikola Topić-1c 🏥
14. Matas Buzelis-1c
15. Carlton Carrington-1c
16. Terrence Shannon Jr.-1c
17. Jared McCain-1d
18. Isaiah Collier-1d
19. DaRon Holmes II-1d
20. Ryan Dunn-1d
21. Yves Missi-1d
22. Ja’Kobe Walter-1d
23. Tristan Da Silva-2a
24. Zach Edey-2a
25. Ajay Mitchell-2a
26. Tyler Smith-2a
27. Kyle Filipowski-2a
28. Trey Alexander-2b
29. Jaylon Tyson-2b
30. Kyshawn George-2b
31. Johnny Furphy-2b
32. Pacome Dadiet-2b
33. Baylor Scheierman-2b
34. Tyler Kolek-2b
35. Justin Edwards-2c
36. Nikola Djurisic-2c
37. Jonathan Mogbo-2c
38. Cam Christie-2c
39. Adem Bona-2c
40. Bobi Klintman-2c
41. AJ Johnson-2c
42. KJ Simpson-2d
43. Jalen Bridges-2d
44. Antonio Reeves-2d
45. Jamal Shead-2d
46. Cam Spencer-2d
47. Kevin McCullar Jr.-2d
48. Harrison Ingram-2d
49. Trentyn Flowers-3a
50. Isaiah Crawford-3a
51. Enrique Freeman-3a
52. Jaylen Wells-3a
53. Dillon Jones-3a
54. Juan Nunez-3a
55. Ulrich Chomche-3a
56. Melvin Ajinça-3a
57. Keshad Johnson-3b
58. Pelle Larsson-3b
59. PJ Hall-3b
60. Bronny James-3b
61. Oso Ighodaro-3b
62. Tristen Newton-3b
This was great
Been watching hoop intellect for long time didn’t know he was that young
I think the big difference with Holland and Castle is the sheer size and frame first and foremost, but also that Castle has a bigger passing rolodex and already uses a lot of hesitation dribbles to manipulate defenders. And so much of advantage creation is using strength to hold the defender once you create an advantage that I kind of don't care about Rob being more explosive. I think Steph will be able to play angles with his dribble to get his shoulder inside his defender then he can just use his body. (Similar to what Luka does. Obviously not saying he's Luka though.)
With the shooting, Castle has shown good touch on floaters and his shot mechanics are similar to Kawhi and LeBron at that age. He has an elongated shot put motion shot and usually has his weight back. Both Kawhi and LeBron had similar issues and both shortened and compacted their shot while shooting with better balance. So it's easy to see the correction because we've seen this before.
Holland scares me. His shot is kind of a mess. He has so many moving parts which is where the inconsistency comes from I think.
He brings the ball in front of his face and turns the ball to square it but he doesn't really get his elbow under the ball. And he has a one motion shot but he also dissipates the energy transfer by kicking his feet out reach requires him to aim with his fingers and use his arms to generate power because the ball is falling away from the rim. It's almost like a middle schooler where he has to load up to generate the power. And even getting stronger won't fix that issue.
Holland shoots kind of like Steph but that's not a compliment. No one should shoot like Steph. It's a miracle and testament to Curry's insane hand-eye coordination and fine muscle control that he can replicate a shot so complicated. But for 99.999% of players you don't want that many moving parts because it is so hard to replicate. That's why Holland's shot looks fine, especially when it's in rhythm and he's not thinking, but he still misses a lot. There's a lot of room for error because of all the things that need to go right.
I think it's a complete teardown if you want the shot to work long term.
More broadly, I think he's similar to Jaylen Brown in terms of how raw he is and how much work there is to do. Except Brown had a much bigger frame and was probably a little more explosive even.
Castle is just a lot closer to a finished product even if he's also raw.
If you come across this, please send your prayers and positive energy. I’ve been battling health issues for years.
My guy Hoop Intellect is the best let’s go ❤
Think it's time to upgrade my phone. Why is Jaxson Hayes in black & white.
IMO ppl are too high on Salaun, he has a great motor with elite length and the 3pointer might translate but to what degree and what else? Not a crazy athlete. Defence is ? Passing? Creation? Not great athletically. Shot blocking? He's def no Bilal Coulibaly but he's getting that bump
Yeah I don’t see it either. Rissacher looks mid asf too lol
No one wants to miss out on the next Giannis.
And Giannis kind of proves the point: big and agile with a great motor and elite length works really well.
But yes, hrs very boom or bust. In a normal draft someone like Salaun would go mid-first.
Although if you trust the shot even a little his floor is a bigger PJ Washington
Problem is he can't finish at the rim or dribble and isn't even close to the same athlete as the Greek freak
@@dlo3607 Giannis averaged 8 points and shot 44% in a league that was the equivalent of high end American high school. He was a better ball handler than Salaun -- though a worse shooter -- but his finishing was not good either. Idk if people remember how much of a hail mary that pick was.
Giannis isn't exactly Ben Simmons athletically. Giannis was 20 pounds smaller so he moved better than Salaun but guys like Giannis and Tatum are gliders just like Salaun. (And Risacher)
People seem to really undervalue fluidity but 6'9"+ 230+ wings who move like guards are a problem because they can physically overwhelm 80% of defenders.
Tatum is instructive because one of the major changes he made to his finishing and driving/ball handling was to stop playing like a wing. If you watch him now it's straight line drives and he does what Giannis does. It's essentially just, "I'm bigger than you and I'm going to bulldoze my way to the rim and finish through you"
Shaq couldn't finish or dribble either. That's an extreme example but being very large and coordinated and playing hard goes a long way to make up for skill in basketball
And again if you buy the shot Salaun is also super safe as an oversized 3-and-D wing. The exact kind of player every team needs
Everyone in this draft is bad right now so if you're betting on four different kinds of skill development anyway might as well take the guy with the highest upside
I'll take salaun over Holland all day
I really enjoy the thoughtful information provided but it looks like you're broadcasting from inside your closet.