U.S. High Speed Rail - Atlanta To Charlotte Greenfield Preferred Alternative Route Analysis HSR
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- čas přidán 9. 07. 2024
- Investigating the preferred alternative Greenfield route of the planned high speed rail line between Atlanta, Georgia and Charlotte, North Carolina via the Greenfield - Spartanburg, South Carolina area.
A little different on this one because I'm attempting to resolve a route chosen in an environmental impact statement rather than picking one I like independent of any study. This route has been studied to the point of a Tier 1 Record of Decision, which means the chosen route is ready for more in depth study in a Tier 2 analysis. A Record of Decision on a Tier 2 analysis would be 90% of the to actual construction.
You may notice the video poses a question or two for you, the viewer. Let me know what your opinion in the comments.
I will be doing more of these types of videos. If you have a suggestion for a city pair of 1 million+ each with no large metros between, please let me know and I will consider it and might make a video about it.
Midwest Economic Policy Institute Study:
midwestepi.files.wordpress.co...
Links to the Atlanta-Charlotte reports:
FEIS/RoD www.dot.ga.gov/InvestSmart/Ra...
Preliminary Routes Report
railroads.dot.gov/elibrary/at...
Stock footage was from Pexel.com and Pixabay.com, both excellent sources for free video footage.
0:00 Introduction
0:05 Project Area Overview
1:47 HSR Guiding Principles
2:07 Charlotte to Greenville-Spartanburg
5:35 Greenville-Spartanburg to Athens
6:58 Athens to Suwanee
8:01 Suwanee to Downtown Atlanta
10:14 Downtown to Hartsfield-Jackson
11:19 Cost
13:09 Travel Times
15:23 Conclusion
16:17 See You On That Big, Beautiful Freeway!
Topics:
CATS
Charlotte Douglas International Airport
MARTA
Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport
Greenville-Spartanburg International Airport
University of Georgia
Centennial Yards - Věda a technologie
Collegetown/University connectivity is incredibly important for HSR, especially when connected to airports.
I am very much looking forward to the proposed Atlanta - Savannah line via Macon. This would connect the most populated pockets of Georgia better than ever, with many small originally railroad towns along the route who would benefit greatly from a train stop near their classic town squares. I-75 between Macon and Atlanta during most hours of the day is a traffic nightmare, and any method that bypasses that traffic is a win in my book.
I appreciate you posting the updated thoughts about regional cost variation. I think having a collected data of videos-to-date with corrected values (and maybe overview of time/avg. speed) might be an interesting summary of the series so far, and may be less punished by the CZcams algorithm which as far as I understand doesn't like re-upload videos very much. OTOH, having a "fully corrected" version of each of those routes would be nice for advocacy, just don't know what it would do to your views...
The main thing I want to do is minimize misimpressions and viewers feeling like they got bad information. I do imagine reups will run into algo issues. Trying to cover my bases on the less well informed sections and videos might be the best approach. Those older videos don't get many views as it is. Given the lead time on every U.S. HSR planned and imagined, most route will probably warrant an update every year or two anyway as things advance.
@@LucidStew Yeah, it's annoying to me that CZcams makes correcting content such a boat anchor on the metrics they push creators to look at. Deleting the old videos and uploading new ones might be the best and most correct thing long term, given the inability to do what a newspaper might do and just replace the original video numbers, but the algorithm doesn't like it.
We really should be building both alignments. From what I've heard, NC and GA are interested, but unfortunately most of the route runs through South Carolina who seems pretty uninterested in passenger rail as a concept.
In the regional map, HSR Alliance has the southern route down as regional rail, which would basically be 125mph. One thing I don't cover is running costs, but according to the EIS, 125mph electric is a lot cheaper to operate than 220mph.
Too bad they can't just tunnel under SC and skip them altogether. It ain't much fun standing at your window watching all the other kids play outside. Lol.
Realize that there is already an Amtrak line between Atlanta and Charlotte. It's just not HSR however.
@@onlinesavant There is technically a train, but the schedule and frequency make it effectively useless for travel between the two cities
@@forestfeller My point, and I guess my question would be, why doesn't the federal government just upgrade that line? I don't believe there is any political reason that this can't be done, so I'm thinking that some portion of the $66 billion within the Bipartisan infrastructure legislation, will be directed to this agenda eventually. I believe I read that $8 billion would go to that project.
Great as always! There has to be something to say about the allure of highway rights of way (ROW) for HSR in the public’s imagination. This one is just close enough to the 85 corridor that folks-some are already in the comments-are going to push for using it even though 1) it’s not as straight as you think, and 2) it’s got more surrounding development than you would imagine, making the whole endeavor *way* more costly.
Your southern route however slots into a highway ROW much more easily, avoids the worst of slicing through suburban sprawl (as it exists today), and serves more people. Not to mention avoiding the very ridiculous looking “not-quite-a-loop” to the incredibly small airport. I would only maybe entertain that detour if there were strong guarantees that the city/county/state agreed to develop not just the adjacent land but also the airport itself into a high density area. IMO Greenville and Spartanburg (and Clemson) would be better with a faster regional train that goes much closer to their downtowns on the Norfolk Southern tracks with high frequency (perhaps by extending North Carolina’s Palmetto service).
Of course that proposal is outside the scope of a HSR video, but maybe compiling a comprehensive plan for the region akin to those national fantasy high speed rail network maps would be useful for advocacy. Something similar may also be warranted for a branch line of sorts connecting Athens to the southern route.
Definitely depends on the particular right of way. Many are not all that straight and have issues of some sort, like extensive frontage roads or they're just full.
I don't like the Greenville-Spartanburg treatment. At a minimum this would require the entire Greenville-Spartanburg area to come up with a comprehensive passenger rail plan to feed a station at the airport. Otherwise, it seems like it would be used much less and somewhat defeat the purpose.
We need rail so badly in the upstate (SC). Our cities are growing at a crazy rate (Greenville and Spartanburg have the second and third highest growth per Census data for SC). 85 is clogged both ways with people cutting through between Charlotte and Atlanta. Columbia, on the other hand is well positioned because it is overbuilt with interstates. Yes, their capacity isn’t appropriate for the population, but they are undergoing interstate projects now. Being against the foothills, there are not many opportunities for other major roads or interstates. Rail would be a life saver for us.
@@johnpro318 Ideally both routes could be built, but gotta get one done first. :) The main advantage of the Greenville-Spartanburg area is that its on the Southeast HSR Corridor. That makes it easier to get federal money. Unfortunately the preferred alternative is a half-hearted attempt to service the area.
As a resident of Anderson, SC. I really hope we can get a station here. I would use this rail all the time.
Aren't y'all getting a buckys??
@@theshortschanal2723 yeah and maybe a costco
I know Lucid prefers his southern route, but there really isn't anything wrong with the Greenfield route either. I believe regardless what is built, it will be faster than driving 3:30~4:30 it takes now between Charlotte and Atlanta.
I was farther apart on the two before looking into it more closely. Previously I saw the problems with the existing rail approaches and balked. Once forced to confront the solutions, they turned out to be less treacherous than I previously assumed.
The southern route makes more sense to me, but then again I'm looking at it from way over here, and given how many people who aren't from California seem to think it would have made _more_ sense to build CAHSR in the _literal_ middle of nowhere rather than along a highway/rail corridor that serves the fairly large and growing population of the Central Valley ... well, perhaps it's best to leave it to people who live where the thing is.
Most of the time figuring out how to get this through the general route without blowing stuff up, I felt really bad for all the people that live in these peaceful, rural areas that will at some point have a 200mph train passing their house every hour.
I feel like both routes could use HSR and could both have HSR coexisting (In a fantasy world at least), there are 2 major metropolises on each end, with multiple smaller size cities on each route, the problem with the northern route IMO is that it misses a lot of these cities like Gaffney, Spartanburg downtown, and Greenville downtown. The airport connection seems redundant to me, but if the alignment closer followed I-85, I wouldn't have such a problem. Whereas your southern alignment did hit all the major smaller cities, although I was surprised Athens was not included in the first video, in hindsight it makes sense since it would be a bit of a detour and not follow an existing corridor like I-20.
I do prefer the HSR alignment coming in from northeast Atlanta since it hits a lot more of the suburbs, but like I said ideally both would be built one from the northeast and one from the southeast, and possibly even an HSR from Nashville to Atlanta the comes in from the Northwest where a lot of suburbs also are located. I do think your alignment from the ATL airport to downtown Atlanta is much nicer, and if in a crazy world, both HSRs end up existing they could share that portion.
Ideally every intercity passenger route would electrified and physically separated from freight. Then top speed could be determined by route geometry and demand.
They should be looking into an HSR via your southern route because there is no existing commuter rail via CLT-Columbia-Augusta (this rail line stopped service sometime in the early 20th century) so there is currently no intercity regional rail to build on there. Unlike the Amtrak Crescent line which already is along this corridor and could look to be upgraded to higher speed. They could develop frequently used regional rail; maybe further connecting the NEC if they can get it to Richmond then eventually Charlotte and go to Atlanta with it that way. Then the HSR route should go through Columbia which would be a central distance for rural areas in Columbia (History tells us that makes sense because the capital moved from Charleston to Columbia for that reason). As well as, closer accessibility for people in rural parts of Georgia to the south of your southern route.
I made a comment on your other video also addressing the central location of Columbia giving that it can be a western directional HSR route that’s also more central to Florida as well. Central South Carolina is in the middle of NYC and MIA and will help connect those two corridor as well as opening quick HSR access to head west. (I have more points to share on this potential Columbia route) you willing to help me make a presentation to take to the SCDOT to reevaluate their stance?
The Greenfield Route sounds (with some adjustments) like a nice regional route with trains up to 200 km/h (125mp/h)
The >110mph section is basically all 220mph capable, so they may as well electrify and go as fast as they can.
I think the Southern route should be chosen with an upgrade done to the existing Crescent corridor to 110mph with 4-5x daily service under the Peach Queen name.
HSR Alliance has it the other way around. The general opinion seems to be high speed one and regional the other.
@@LucidStew My proposal is for regional service...90-110mph is regional , 125mph+ is HSR.
NOPE too slow and too infrequent. Dozens of trains a day at 150+ mph is much better and would be used by more people
@@Nexis4Jersey reality says otherwise. 90 mph is suburban express. 125 is regional 150 mph plus is true HSR 😅😅😅😅 5 daily trains between fast growing cities is downright insulting
@@qjtvaddict well considering that there would be more frequent service on the faster route I don’t see it as an issue. The people going between the big boy cities will get they’re fast rail, Augusta and Colombia get rail service and the people on the upgraded route will get more frequent service
A nice informative video of the trans regional train from Charlotte to Atlanta.
Running through Gwinnett county and Athens would be incredible. I know people in the Gwinnett area have argued on having Marta expanded that far for several years, so I'm sure this route would upset many...but they would get over it lol. Offsetting the traffic on 85 for commuters would also be huuuuuge
Bro needs to make a dedicated video to cover Cascadia!!!!!👀👀👀
The fact that we could connect an awesome college town with Eugene, a laid-back bike city with Portland, a massive tech hub almost rivaling that of the SF bay area with Seattle, and a beautiful cultural center with Vancouver together with a 250 mph bullet train would be jaw-dropping
As a Portlander, a yearn for the day Wsdot starts doing serious work with this!
I'll be getting to that as part of my FRA HSR Corridors series. It's a few months away. It almost surely wouldn't go 250mph in service, though. 200-220 is generally max service speed with wheel on rail technology due to energy demands rising near exponentially with speed.
@@LucidStew there is a possibility though, if the French were able to get a TGV up to 357 back in 2007, it's possible for us to have 250 in 25 or so years
I believe in technological advancement, we could make it happen!
@@CrazeTheZilla Its not a technical issue in terms of being able to achieve speed. It has to do with efficiency in operation. At a certain speed, vehicles require more energy to propel than its worth in terms of passenger revenue gained and maintenance costs incurred.
Another gripe about the “not-a-loop”: instead of going to the airport, some of the trains should diverge completely (via bi mode trains or whatever) to the freight line in Anderson to go to Greenville and Spartanburg’s near downtown stations before continuing to Charlotte. That wouldn’t be fast at all (current Crescent schedule along the route from Greenville to Charlotte is ~2.5hrs!) but, not to sound callous, a slow frequent-ish train is kinda the level of service the region merits given its low population numbers and intense sprawl.
imo leave the original videos up with links to Twp videos: 1 with just the cost adjustments for all prior videos and 2 with the edited version. I don't like deleting the discussion from prior videos
love the effort you put in!
That's a good point. I hadn't thought of the comments.
Funny enough, the "gulch" used to be a huge train station back in the day, but I heard no plans for creating a new mmpt under Centennial yards 😢. Having the train station under (or over) the downtown connector between 17th st and north ave would be interesting
The study was done in 2021 when it seems like the Georgia MMPT was still a thing. While researching Centennial Yards(I'd not heard of it until I made the first video), it did seem like that idea had fallen by the wayside in the newer plans.
When I was researching that first video, I took a good, long look at the midtown area between North and 10th before ultimately settling on the location between the Five Points station and the Centennial Yards development.
I think there should be a rail connection to Athens and Clemson but your solution is better overall. The bend to a stupid airport instead of properly hitting Greeneville and or Spartanburg is dumb. Connecting universities to our major population centers seems like a good idea to me.
Honestly... I'm for the southern route. Even if the up front costs for it are shockingly more than the preferred alignment, I could see the preferred alignment being stalled for years or even decades with the sheer number of potential law suits that would come from imminent domain. The Southern Route just seems like a far more efficient route that could also be a landmark project for the rest of the country... illustrating how to maximize the existing medians of interstates to solve a problem.
Atlanta would make a great High speed passenger train hub, AtlNta to Charlotte,N , Atlanta-Macon-Jacksonville,FL,Atlanta-Macon-Savannah, Atlanta-Augusts-Charleston,SC, Atlanta-Columbus,GA, Atlanta-Chattanooga would be great High speed routes.
Its a ways off, but that seems to be the way things will head. What are they going to do? Build the second largest airport in the country, too? They're actually studying building a second airport.
Given that they're so cheap, both should be built eventually. The south doesn't have alot of rail, and this is a good opportunity to build it.
I have similar thoughts about enhanced passenger rail in the south. The area is growing. Build it now and reap the benefits over the long haul. This in contrast to places that waited too long, like the northeast and California that aren't really growing and are finding it expensive.
It seems the planning consultants deliberately picked the route so that NIMBYs would kill it! I think it should run down 85 or existing railways as much as possible except for a detour through Athens GA.
An interesting take. The I-85 route is pretty nasty. I avoided it. The study concludes it would be much slower and about twice as expensive. I find both believable after looking at it long enough to conclude I didn't like it from space.
One possible city pair to look at could be Calgary-Edmonton. Both metros are around 1.5 million people with strong population growth and some of the highest LRT ridership in North America. They are located 300km apart, but there has not been any passenger rail service between the two cities since the 80's despite many studies.
It's interesting seeing a youtube video about rail through (quite literally) my back yard.
Like they literally would probably take part of my back yard if they don't just stop at Doraville
There is room in most of that ROW, but yeah, there might be some places where it doesn't quite fit. On the bright side, if the back yard stays intact, at least the trains wont be going very fast. On the down side, the study wants to run 12 roundtrips a day. 😬
A nice and informative video the fast trans Regional Train.👍
STEW they avoiding Columbia with it because the growth Greenville has had in recent years but that’s solely due to being in between them on the closest CURRENT route by CAR. Columbia is not only the capital of South Carolina but it is placed in the state center for a reason. The HSR should go through Columbia as it is more centralized and the city has a lot of underdeveloped areas in the places you mentioned in downtown Columbia making any construction cost a whole lot cheaper compared to the preferred alternative.
I dunno. My gut says go with the Southern Route. I get it, the approved alignment will serve Athens which is not on the Interstate and pass through the largest city in S. Carolina, but all that use of imminent domain screams law suits. This project could get set back for decades because of legal issues. It's not simply a case of "build it in the middle of nowhere just to build it", it just makes way more sense. Nice touch building it to the Atlanta airport, the MARTA is underused as it is.
Very cool video, thank you for making this. I wish there would be a collaboration with Amtrak + GA DOT + MARTA to combine the MARTA and freight ROWs north of 85 into an expanded, electrified freight + commuter line. Everyone would have to retrofit equipment I'm sure, and MARTA would probably have to tear out all of their track. Still, it just seems like a space that is underutilizied and could do with something like that.
The southern route not requiring land acquisition is pretty cool. Hopefully this route gets enough momentum and funding behind it to get built this decade.
Greenfield got a Corridor ID grant last year. That means a Tier II EIS could receive funding as early as this year. Generally a 2-3 year process on that, another 2-3 years of planning and design. Optimistically, could be looking at construction this decade. Personally, I'd still like to see the southern route as well at a slightly lower standard as regional rail. The southeast is one of the few places in the country that has the opportunity to get this infrastructure in place relatively inexpensively before growth makes it much more difficult.
Time for the Southeast Corridor to become a reality.
Very nice video. It is really descriptive regarding the HSR between Charlotte, North Carolina and Atlanta, Georgia, and the preferred “Greenfield Alternative”, and compares it to your own southern route. And also, do you have plans to make an Unreal Engine 5 representation of both this HSR line and your own southern route?
I will have some in a video(s) I'm eventually going to do about the Southeast HSR Corridor. Might be a little while until I do anything more because this route has gotten a lot of attention from me for the amount NC, SC, and GA are doing with it.
I get the feeling that phase 1 of this project is going to start the row at dorville station to cut costs.
Depends if they electrify from the start. If they go with diesel-electric it leads to all sorts of weird possible compromises.
Prefer your allignment tbh although always with the downtown connection no matter what
I like your video as they create serious discussions.
I'll keep it more general this time.
First of all I'm not a fan of airport HSR stations. There are some situations that building one is beneficiary but in most cases it doesn't make sense. If a destination has a reasonably sized airport it will be more logical to flight directly into it than take a train from a different airport and if it's not possible to fly directly into your destination there than HSR will be your best option even if you'll need to take a ride into the main train station in the city. Local and regional rail services are far more important than HSR for an airport and the savings can be used to increase and improve those local connections.
As for speeds,
I'll say it again, highway's ROW cannot be used for HSR as it reduces the speeds far more than the estimations. The world has been building HSR for years now and there is a reason why no one does that.
We just got a confirmation for the over optimistic estimations given in the US. Brightline Florida promised an "under 3h" duration between Miami and Orlando airport (I believe it was something like 2h59) that ended up 3h33-3h38 (+ delays).
As for your current estimate. Brightline West plans to fully use a highway right of way with just a handful of necessary viaducts, no tunnels just only 3 stations and mostly single track and their current estimate is $12B for a much shorter rout compared to the southern option so it seems your estimate is a bit low. Personally I doubt Brightline West will manage to stay in the $12B budget.
On major airports I'm basically looking at it like if it happens to be right next to the route between cities, then connect. Otherwise, skip it.
It really depends on the highway. There are some. I would say the majority can't support more than 110mph consistently, however a few interstate rights of way are straight enough to support 175-200mph without alteration for as much as 30 miles. These numbers improve if some straightening slightly outside of the ROW occurs. I-85 in this study is an example of the former. They found that utilizing the interstate ROW resulted in a significantly slower and more expensive route. In support of the latter, as shown in the first ATL-CHR video, I-77 & I-20 are a different story. It is possible I overestimated average speeds, but even assuming so, that route is capable of true high speed. The GDOT route alternatives report agreed.
I don't think the Brightline Orlando story is over yet. They will refine that over time. They will also likely get a federal grant to grade separate here and there, and those times will improve. This result is also with the class 7 section being nearly entirely single-tracked, which is also an interesting previous of potential dilemmas with BLW.
I also doubt BLW will come in at $12 billion. I have it at $12.8B. The reason the cost of that and these ATL-CHR estimates are close is due to huge disparities in construction costs between the two areas. In addition, land acquisition in the Carolina is extraordinarily cheap, while Brightline's land acquisition costs along Interstate 15 might be quite high for only needing to cover 6 miles.
If this gets built the corridor should follow I-85
According to the EIS that corridor has issues and its both much slower and much more expensive.
@@LucidStewYou have to explain or at least point me to a link I can read this.
150 mph is a fast train. America finally needs to develop in highspeed bullet trains. 200 plus is true bullet status. Anything less is just a fast train and needs improvements. High speed bullet trains and maglev super train technology is the new american dream...
You're the first source I've heard gatekeeping at 200mph. Generally accepted is top speed of 250km/h, which is usually simplified to 150mph in Imperial. Besides, as far as 150mph goes, we're talking about average speeds here.
@@LucidStew Yeah you're right, (here) like i said, we are decades behind. We cant fandom the speeds that the far more advanced countries of the far east have been doing for decades. We have a long ways to go...
We cant get fully functioning last mile bus routs so Idk man
I disagree that the Greenville Spartanburg metro area is no where the seize of the Atlanta metropolitan area in size nor population 🤔. But we Atlantans still love you. GOD BLESS 🙌 🙏 ❤️.
It actually is similar in size, but 1/6th the population. That was the point of bringing it up. It doesn't doesn't have the density generally necessary to support high speed and high frequency rail. There is no way of disagreeing with statistics to the degree that the population of the two areas would be equivalent.
Southern route is better. Augusta and Columbia are big enough to justify the increased length and travel time for the connection. I also thing your are too reluctant in using tunnels. Charlotte Douglas International Airport could be connected by using a 6 mile long tunnel with an underground station between the parking garages. Tunnel would start west of the I77 and come up at the Steel Fab Inc. High speed approach, high speed departure for the trains, short ways to walk for the people. Same for Atlanta. Tunnel should start at Brockwood, before the current Amtrak Station, going south for about 3 miles to a underground station
I put the Charlotte Douglas station where it is because I ran across more than one article where CATS ran into difficulty with the airport authority concerning station location. A tunnel there would also be something like $3-4 billion more with little benefit over the alternative. In regards to anything in the Greenfield route, that wasn't for me to alter. I was just trying to figure out how to make their alignment work. Realistically once you went underground at Doraville, you could just stay there through Downtown. Would be expensive, though.
SUGGESTION video:.. Where to build New Thruway Bus connections and Stations to Feed all the fancy HSR
An interesting idea. I do like the area and the transit possibilities. Someone tipped me off on the Gwinett County transit plan. Might be good to take a look how that all hooks up. Sounds very research heavy, but might make for an interesting series concerning any of these potential HSR lines.
Any route that avoids demolishing houses & buildings seems preferrable to me, but I'm no expert...
There's a balance. Its more or less impossible to avoid demolition and you want to be able to move people effectively.
What is the cost of reconstructing every interstate overpass on the Southern Route? Also, this could be very inconvenient as it would slow down the current travel routes for interstate and commuters.
Its built into the estimate, but most of those intersections are of the up-and-over type where the tracks would fly over existing. Its seldom the case on interstate rights of way that I've seen where intersections need to be rebuilt. There's usually a way to work around what's in place.
One more thing: curious if using your new and improved cost formula you have an estimate for OG Brightline’s construction cost? My half-hearted searching doesn’t seem to find an agreed upon number, so wondering if you have a ballpark.
Mine is more geared to minimum double-tracked electrified HSR. All they did was add a track to the ROW, in some cases where it had previously existed. And then stations, signaling, control systems, facilities, train sets, but I don't think my method would apply as all that is built into my per-mile costs. I got $3 billion search for All Aboard Florida. What did you find?
I don’t like the premise the study started with connecting Airport to Airport when doing that you make a train station in the middle of no man’s land and you still have to find your way to downtown but it took you longer to get there.
Yeah, I think they placed too much emphasis on the airport connects. Although a way to connect Charlotte Douglas and Hartsfield-Jackson could be helpful to reduce airport building in both regions as those two are big hubs and you'd be able to remove short haul regional from that corridor nearly completely.
If you make high speed rail then put in a lot of stations its no longer high speed rail. Its regional rail
I've heard this opinion and don't really get it. Either its high speed or its not and the standard is speed. There is nothing stopping a mixture of service types, including express, other than line capacity.
@@LucidStew we need regional rail. But its scope creep for high speed rail if we add stops at every small town and it makes a worse service overall if there is 10 million stops. This can be fixed with express service. But only if you build for that with bypasses and dont have the regional service blocking the express service.
Exactly what I was thinking. HSR is a point to point system which shuttles people from one major area to another in a timely manner. It biggest competitor would be airport shuttles. But it also a big benefit to the airport in moving people to more favorable transfers.
If it stops EVERYWHERE it becomes less attractive to Airport/Business and on the Demand Travelers.
@@LucidStewwell maglev can safely make stops every 20 miles and still run beyond 200 mph and do the trip in 8 minutes!!!!!
@@TheJttv I don't disagree with that, but a high speed system being poorly designed and implemented doesn't make it NOT high speed.
Is it possible to make the southern route go to athens then augusta to columbia?
The main advantage of the southern route is that it sticks mainly to interstate rights of way, minimizing land acquisition. Many things are possible, but in terms of likeliness if anything is built it will be the Greenfield route.
Can the HSR share rail with MARTA?
Not sure. MARTA is 3rd rail, so they'd need to add catenary, but no idea if they're built for it. If yes, this simplifies things significantly, obviously. Also doesn't affect performance because those are slower speed areas anyway.
@@LucidStew The biggest problem I think it's the vehicle size limit. If the HSR uses Talgo train set, it may barely fit in the MARTA's size...
Probably not unfortunately. MARTA recently bought new rail cars and published information about their desired specifications. Anything on MARTA would have to be a tiny train compared to other high speed rail systems. This might be technologically possible since UK runs some really small trains due to their tight tunnels. The next and bigger issue is weight. Their maximum is significantly lower than any other rail car I’ve seen (even less than the *light* European/Japanese EMUs).
Extending MARTA service using a new super train, even if it’s slow, would be really cool for the region though!
@@Whatneeds2bsaid Talgo's coach fits the dimension of MARTA. The engine is a bit bigger, but maybe it can be customized to a smaller dimension?
The detour required to get to/from Greenville, SC doesn't make a lot of sense. Keep the route straight, and add a people mover commuter train to get to/from Greenville. Best to avoid any kind of tunneling in or around Atlanta.
The analysis in the initial route thinning process unnecessarily biases these routes to connect to Greenville-Spartanburg IA, DT Atlanta, and HJAIA and I think that is reflected in choices that otherwise seem mysterious.
Just what I was thinking. This guy is running a point to point system like a Regional Rail. And still making us think this is HSR and a good use of built resources.
For his information, stations are a big part of construction budget. And if a system like this is going to be attractive, it must take the shortest route and only stop in major population centers.
Want it now
How accurate is this map the rail line runs right over my old house on the map and like 3 mins form me now lol
I would describe it as close, but not perfect. There are probably places where it deviates by 2 or 3 miles from what would actually be built. The maps provided by the GDOT study are pretty high level.
Good presentation. My thoughts differ in some of the fiddley details. How often would the trains run? Once daily each direction? Twice daily? Hourly? What happens if the route skirts major congested areas by five miles, with the short connecting feeders provided by the local and regional governments? (Bus routes and light rail feeders). Underground becomes a better option as the cost of tunneling drops when the Boring company goes into full operation. You lose ridership if the passengers have to wait for more than a half an hour for a connection. This is, after all, a transportation system, not a theme park with rides where people are willing to wait in line for sometimes hours. Don't give up.
The route Alternatives Development Report appendices have a lot of interesting information. 12 daily roundtrips are suggested. This is not my route. The southern route was one I created, but it coincidentally is also close to one the Alternatives Report considered. I was attempting to figure out the routing particulars of the Tier 1 EIS from a broader description. As such, I did not go "off script" from the Greenfield route(the preferred alternative).
As for waiting, it depends on the area. Atlanta and Charlotte both have capable connecting transit systems. MARTA in the Atlanta metro and Charlotte's LYNX light rail both run at 20 minute intervals. Schedules between all three would likely be coordinated.
@@LucidStew Not disagreeing with you at all. What are the possibilities of going through the National Forests to minimize the cost of land acquisition? After all, We The People already own that.
@@oldgandy5355 Maybe in more level areas, but then you have to contend with wildlife that has no clue you're going 200mph.
@@LucidStew True, but there are ways to mitigate the wildlife issues which are much less costly than buying private property at highly inflated prices. If I bought a piece of property five years ago, it's going to cost the government at least ten times what I paid for it, not counting the court costs for litigation of imminent domain. I've seen that issue many times across the west over oil and gas pipelines. The most insurmountable thing I can think of are the naysayers who aren't willing to try. Stay with it, we'll get there yet.
I've said this on other videos of yours and can I first say I the video, I love the analysis, I do think the constraints placed on the route, and the need to more than just the two main cities is commendable, but when I see the way this route goes into and out of Greenville it made me laugh. Now there might not be any alternative to this route based on the geography and other factors but to me it looked as though the line should either head out from Athens on a more direct route towards Greenville then a more direct route out towards Charlotte (which I can only assume isn't possible) or have a station for Greenville and a regional train service to the airport/city, which I think is a preferred option.
I hate to say this again but this isn't high speed rail, it's kind of an inter city connector rail, which is needed in the US (which doesn't use freight owned lines), using the trendy HSR tag line to pull people in and maybe get them on board with the project. Apologies to anyone in the Greenville area but having traveled around the US a fair amount I've never heard of this airport so is an expensive rail line connector to it really necessary (maybe it is, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm skeptical)? I also think that there's enough work getting from Charlotte to the center of Atlanta without going out to the airport (with HSR anyway). There should be a good service to the airport from there anyway, is there isn't that should be a completely different project as it looks expensive and if there is already a service (which I think you said it the video there was) it's just duplicating this, which to me seems unnecessary). That said if it was part of a different "HSR" scheme heading out last the airport by all means incorporate it into that (this would make sense).
All this said I like the video, and you did say the route was someone else's you had used so I can't blame you for this. I just think this video especially highlights the fact that many of the midsize to smaller cities, that are either college or possibly satellite cities to state capitals or big cities, just aren't on the rail network, it's commendable that you're trying to include them, it's just that going in and out of urban areas where the demand I doubt would be big enough to justify the cost and difficulty of getting the kind in and out, as well as slowing down the journey time between the main urban centers that the route is primarily meant to serve.
I've heard this criticism before, but as far as I know there is not a standard saying HSR means dedicated express right of way. Even then, "high speed rail" as a plainly read statement does not mean that. So, I think the "this isn't HSR, it's ICE" argument is incorrect if an ICE line does in fact run at high speed. Same goes for the idea of bypasses. Those may be features of well-designed and efficient HSR systems, but that doesn't mean systems without them aren't high speed. Also, if I put up a video where a line ran exclusively from Charlotte to Atlanta with no stops between, I guarantee someone would leave a comment saying "this is HSR, not a flight".
On the subject of Greenville-Spartanburg International, in my general area we have Ontario International Airport, which is a suburban relief airport for LAX. That airport has nearly 3 times the traffic of Greenville-Spartanburg, and it feels empty compared to St. Louis Lambert, which I flew through many times while living in Missouri. STL in turn is quite small compared to megas I've been through like LAX, DFW, and DEN. So, yeah, its tiny. I can only imagine its a compromise choice to serve the entire area. And for whatever reason, in the initial route analysis, routes got points for going to it.
I’m from the area. The twist to the GSP airport is totally unnecessary in my opinion. I think it not connecting would actually be better for the region because it might give us a boost to push for our own light rail option. A station in Greenville would be game changing. Progressive (for the state) and urbanizing at a fast clip with pretty good policies as well. Establish a train to the airport from downtown.
@@johnpro318 I always like hearing the local perspective because there are tons of things to missing when looking from a literal 10,000 feet. Ultimately I think the preferred alternative works against you, then. There is an alternative that parallels I-85, but it is relatively slow and expensive. Downtown Greenville would be tough without tremendous expense. Due to the spread out nature of the area, it might be better served by a 110mph regional rail line that can make more stops. My general thought on that entire area of the south is that it is ripe for some visionary development it can grow into.
@@LucidStew yea I don’t really care if it is HSR. Just tired of driving everywhere. Lol
I don't care which route is chosen. I just wish someone would start building it.
I was thinking about this the other day, and this is one of only 5 projects in the country at any stage beyond 0 that has a true high speed option. This is the cheapest of the 5.
I am trying to make a rail proposal for my hometown of greenville nc and I am struggling to find cost to build a viaduct. I am wondering what number you use to determine the cost of building a viaduct?
My methodology is pretty primitive. I am interested in refining it, though. I'll look into it and if I find anything solid, I'll let you know.
Found one example in Palo Alto that is ~$440 million/mile. This is roughly what I use for "urban viaduct existing ROW". Applying the cost differences between CA and NC with 10% normalization toward the national average, that gives me $100 million/mile in NC. I'll put the URL for the Midwest Economic Policy Institute study in the description. It's for highways, but should apply to rail as well.
@@LucidStewThank you so much!!! I really appreciate it I’ve been looking for a good week now (mostly like North Carolina sources) and couldn’t find a direct value for Value/Mile you really helped me out!
Why not the Southern route but linking up with Athens to Atlanta?
Its an option. I avoided shared track on the "southern route". It is quite slow between Suwanee and the airport... It also becomes an attempt to cover bases that is less effective. Like, let's say you're in Augusta and looking to take the train to Hartsfield-Jackson. Do you really want the extra 40 minutes a detour through Athens is going to add to your otherwise theoretical 50 minute trip? I think at a some point a combination of HSR and competent regional rail is a better solution than attempting to route the HSR to cover more places.
This just cost 14-15B? Just for a reference, a county in Georgia just proposed a bus transit plan for... 17B!
What's the county? I'd like to look into that.
n/m, found it. One thing I'll say is that only about 40% of the project is in Georgia. The SC and NC portions are vastly simpler, and land acquisition is very cheap, especially in SC.
Also, it's not really fair to portray that as a bus plan. That's for their entire transit system all the way down to bike and pedestrian.
Don't understand how the project only costs about $50 M per mile. There are some tunnels. That cheap do so now.
@@LucidStew If this project only costs 14-15B, build it already!
Even Hawaii's HART system cost about 15B for just the rail rapid transit...
I live in gray court near fountain inn why don't we get a stop😢
HSR lines don't have a lot of stops. If the area managed to build a complimentary regional rail system that interfaced with the HSR main line, you could have a station where it would cross I-385...
Anderson has an old station under its downtown.
Imagine watching this video and seeing your house nuke emoji.
Someone commented that the train will run straight through their back yard!
I feel your preferred route takes the easy route relying on local transit for last (30) mile connection. That is less than ideal. Good HSR ends in the city center of the major destinations (Atlanta and Charlotte) - though suburban stations are ok for small intermediate stations. Local transit is slow, often infrequent/ unreliable, and generally an undesirable trasfer. Key destinations need to be one-seat rides, not transfers.
You have some very good comments on the greenfield route - it is poorly prioritised - as always US looks at HSR and things "speedy commuter rail" with too many useless stations that diminish the value of the line as HSR. It's just a symptom of US having poor grasp on the concept and thus poor project planning skills and having so little rail so when a rail plan xomes along they try to have it do too many things all at once.
Your southern line is what most European states would build and what California is building. A route that is not the straightest, or the fastest, but provides a lot of intermediate connections. (Japan and France are notable exceptions - but they have functional "conventional rail" - US should be inspired by Germany not France .. but I digress). It is likely the best route politically, as it hits a LOT of key destinations in all three states (especially with my suggestion below).
I feel if you acccept that HSR should serve the center of Atlanta, you can (obvs for added cost) exist the city somewhat towards Athens and swoop that city on your way to SC and even further improve connectivity.As mentioned elsewhere - college/university towns are huge ridership prizes. College kids often exist without cars and also tend to travel a lot more than usual adulst with kids.
Athens is not impossible from Augusta, but one of the attractive parts of the southern route, in my opinion, is the adaptability of the interstate ROW into something with good speed and less hassle. Augusta to Athens could still be very fast, but then you introduce the hassle of 50 miles of route acquisition. And once you get to Athens, you're still left with the dilemma of how to get to Atlanta with any expediency. One reason I picked that was because I looked at the various rights of way into Atlanta from the east and that's the only one that wasn't terrible. When I actually sat down and tried to figure out how the Greenfield route would work, it wasn't quite as bad as the first impression, however its still pretty challenging. The compromise is to accept that it will be relatively slow the last 30-40 miles.
so whats the thought on trainsets like britline instead of a string of cars?amtrak might buy several britline train sets using the same motive power now
The Siemens Charger is the main motive power of Amtraks long distance services and state supported services. Brightline is using the Charger for its Florida route as well. Ideally this would be electrified
Amtrak already uses the Charger and has been switching over the Siemens Venture cars as well. They're planning to replace a significant portion of their fleet by 2026. The only difference really is the engine to car ratio.
i hink planning for hsr soth of a charlotte is kinda oremature thought really intresting amtrack should first get at least the same frequenct of servise south of charlotte that it has north of charlotte so people can get used to seing more trains. i acually building it is at lest 2 if not three generations away.
. and also his ould give busling atlanta a chance rto build a decent commuter rail system.
I think the Southern route is better
Me too. I think something like high speed southern route with a less aggressive regional rail option near I-85 up north is a nice combination.
The area desperately needs it
Why bother making a job to the Spartanburg airport? it's pinned in and if it needs to expand it will need to move.
Yeah, just seems like a very unsatisfying political compromise.
This completely missed all the places that actually need intercity/commuter service.
Such as? I'm not from the area, nor have I been there so I don't have the best idea of where the traffic is outside of what is obvious from a map(e.g. I-85 corridor)
Are you serious. The United States of America needs to build (The United States Atlantic bullet line) from Boston Massachusetts to Jacksonville Florida stopping in one or two major cities in each state it travels through. You could move millions of americans up and down the entire United States Eastern seaboard with great comfort and at speeds of 200 to 225 plus mph. Yes this would be a difficult endeavor but not impossible. This is something the mighty United States of America should of had decades ago. This would greatly improve infrastructure and economic growth. But till America wakes up and does it,highspeed bullet trains and maglev super train technology will always be the new american dream....
I'm serious. Right now we have mostly 79mph passenger trains and 110mph is considered speedy. Worldwide in-service speeds beyond 205mph are extremely rare due to operational and maintenance costs rising dramatically with speed. The purpose of the subject is to discuss what building a moderately fast train would actually entail. Part of the reason I have chosen to do this is because completion of CAHSR is endangered partially due to overambition on speed. However, if you watch every video I've made, you will see some routes with average speeds in the 175-180mph range which may satisfy you more.
@@LucidStew Even at 100 mph, the mighty United States of America dosent have an Atlantic line.All they have to do is build the tracks because Acela already has the bullets. Extremely rare world wide you say? Al Boraq: 198 mph, Eurostar e320 and TGV: 200 mph, DeutscheBahn ICE: 205 mph, Haramain Western Railway: 217 mph, The Italo and Frecciarossa: 220 mph, Shinkansen H5 and E5: 224 mph, Fluxing Hao CR4OOAF: 249 mph. And ofcourse the next level of highspeed bullet train technology is maglev super train technology. The Shanghai Maglev: 268 mph, The Chuo Shinkansen maglev super train currently under construction between Tokyo and Nagoya and then Osaka. This technology can reach speeds of up to 375mph. And China has come out with it's Maglev super train technology which when completed will reach speeds of 621 mph. Now, any questions? See we are americans. We know how to put some fool on the moon but when it comes to travel on land, we suck, sorry to say. The far more advanced countries of the far east are seriously proud of their trains and trust and believe, they run them at speed. It's the west who still has a long, long way to go. Infact, im going to Japan next year to experience what many americans never will. Again, Highspeed bullet trains and maglev super train technology, the new american dream.....
This line could be shorter and put on the interstate. And it could be point (Charlotte NC) to point (Atlanta GA). Let Amtrak offer the local service if they can find the money to build in the places that you proposed.
The reason why you have High Speed Rail is so it can effectively complete with Air travel to these cities. If hsr stops EVERYWHERE! than it is not an attractive choice for these two major cities.
So we put the HSR on the straightest highway and call it the day!
The I-85 alternative as rejected. It is slower and quite a bit more expensive.
@@LucidStew I need to look at some drawings and see if I can come up with a better plan. But I want this HSR to be straight as possible. And as a point to point system: Downtown Charlotte and Atlanta and Airports. Very simple!
Good luck getting the conservative South Carolina politicians to support a HSR project that goes through their state but that has 0 stops in SC...
@@jaydeeificationThe Secretary of Transportation may consider tunneling under SC.
@@davidjackson7281 HILARIOUS.
atlanta's amtrack station should have a hst station and get more slower trains to new orleans -hoston- galveston.
Atlanta's Amtrak station is weird.
Marta doesn’t have any heavy rail.
Multiple sources disagree with you. Let's hear your argument.
You’re very correct, I mistook the definition of heavy rail. We have both heavy and light rail with our “Atlanta streetcar.” I would love to see Atlanta (my residence) connected with Macon, Augusta, Savannah, and the I-20X corridor would be incredible. If Florida’s bright line could connect to Georgia’s northern cities, tourism would boom!
@@fordfarmer6465 Atlanta is setting up to be incredibly well connected for passenger rail. Unfortunately right now it looks like that could take a long time. But we'll see. Maybe the momentum will change as the current projects are completed.
No HSR should be place on Freight Right Of Way. It should run separately.
It should run to the downtown centers of the two cities as you proposed. And an airport connection is a wise idea, even though Marta goes to the airport as well. But Marta is a different market and just an.inconvenience.
Oh! An extra connection to Marta outside the downtown is not necessary.
We are not talking about Regional Rail sir. And not even Amtrak intercity rail makes this except.
We are talking about a HSR that is a point to point system. A system designed to shuttle people from one high population area to another.
This is my understanding of what HSR should be. So your conception of HSR is flawed and should be redrawn to reflect the needs of the population it suppose to serve.
This is not my plan. This is the Tier 1 preferred alternative. But I'll say that everyone seems to have a different opinion about what HSR is and there is no universally accepted definition, so it's a bit difficult to tell anyone that their conception is flawed.
Do you read history? Your opinion is based on unrealistic expectations. Even 19th century rail was not built directly in downtowns in fact the train stations came before downtown development around the station. Trying to go downtown is an extra expense that also doesn’t even reflect the fact that most people don’t live downtown anyway. So many won’t need to transfer. Most people transfer from HSR to other modes anyway get over it.
@@qjtvaddict I did not know the U.S. ever hosted a HSR system other than the one that goes to Penn and Union Station. Teach.
@@qjtvaddict HSR is designed primarily for specialized business commuters and occasional travellers. It is a high end service. Because of this feature, it should go downtown where the office towers and high end hotels are. Stop trying to turn this in a mass transit system. And this is not *19th Century anymore.* We need dedicated transit that is fast and efficient!
I prefer the southern route because it avoids the university of georgia.
Not a big Bulldogs fan?
@@LucidStew czcams.com/video/7Wmx5DkX4eI/video.htmlsi=DPeUClHqYt03XXMo
NEWSFLASH! There is no reason for high speed rail between Charlotte, NC and Atlanta, Ga when neither state has any passenger rail whatsoever! No one will use it, period.
That logic doesn't actually make sense. If there's no passenger rail somewhere, how could you know how many people would use a potential line?
It is not true that neither state has passenger rail. While I don't have a crystal ball, the assertion that no one will ride effective transit is hyperbole at best.
See NCbytrain