Would you listen to $1000 interconnects? Will you hear any difference?
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- čas přidán 22. 07. 2023
- Interconnects costing $1000 and more are all the rage in the audiophile community. But will you listen to them? Do you think you will hear how amazing they are?
LINKS
Do all amplifiers sound the same? - www.audiomasterclass.com/blog...
Bob Carver (null difference test) - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Car...
Cable directionality test - web.archive.org/web/200112201...
Kettle lead test - web.archive.org/web/201103030...
Power cord ABX - hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11...
Blind testing - www.audiocheck.net/blindtests...
The Great Debate - www.stereophile.com/news/0509...
Are blind tests bogus - abx.digitalfeed.net/
ABX double blind comparator data - web.archive.org/web/201003270...
Effects of cable, amplifier and loudspeaker interactions - www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?...
CREDITS
Speaker cables - Cardas Clear Beyond ~$13,000
Morrissey - Caligvla CC BY 2.5
Counting horse - • The World's Smartest M... (Disclaimer - There is no reason to suppose this particular demonstration is anything other than genuine and the horse really can count.)
Coca Cola Santa - Presumed to be an original advertisement
I go by what professional studios use. I’ve never seen fancy boutique interconnects or cables in a studio. Just decent quality ones
And the installation wiring, foil screened twin - less than $1/metre. DM
Sometimes they even DIY to save money!
My dad did some heating/ac work at nick masons (pink Floyd) studio in the 90’s. Got talking to him about the gear obviously. Nick told him he used the cheapest speaker wire from bulk from Tandy, the cheap standard interconnects and just regular van damme mic and amp cables.
This longtime audiophile with a Master's in psychology agrees more than 95%. Thanks!
I talked to Mark Levinson once and he said that unless a person can truly afford it they should just stay out of the high end. He didn't mean it in a bad way... just that the law of diminishing returns is real.
Such a snobbish opinion and why I would not consider anything from levinson.
@@corcaightowner8881 He was actually cool asf. Way cooler than most of the high-end dealers in town. We jawjacked on the phone for an hour or so. He was just making a point that you don't have to spend six figures to have a great system.
Mark Levinson sold silver wire speaker cables in the past.
"Tests by Stereo Review Magazine in 1983 concluded that Monster cables did not make a difference in the sound and were "indistinguishable" from 16-gauge lamp cord. Whether someone claims they can hear the difference varies from person to person.[47] Many reporters and audiophiles have done double-blind A/B listening tests and are unable to hear the difference.[48] According to PC Magazine, Monster is "often accused of selling over-priced cables that you can buy elsewhere for a fraction of the price".[35]@ Wikipedia
Whenever my Smile/Giggle Index sinks below a certain level, I come to your channel for a TUNEup. Thanks much.
Making sure your interconnects are actually connected.. is perhaps the most important step to (great) audio from your source !
That and getting left and right correct. DM
@@AudioMasterclasswrong way you are just relevity listening with your head down and your feet up 😂
Finally, someone that looks at the limitations of studies, rather than citing them as empirical fact. Wonderful explanation on how bias can skew results. Thanks for the content. Personally, I never heard any exotic cable make a difference, agree as long as a cable has good copper and dialectic, it is plenty good enough. The more one cost does not mean you get more.
I heard that with the cola test the trick was to make sure one was just a notch colder. This also applies to A/B testing audio, if the volume isn't entirely matched.
You never heard a difference, because there isn't any.
Having the ability to enjoy $1,000 interconnects isn't the ability to discern audible differences, it's the ability to piss away 1K USD on interconnects thus enjoying them.
During my past studies in physics, where I studied topics like electricity and waves, calculations revealed that for the audio frequency range (20Hz-20kHz), any decent cable proves to be perfectly adequate, as long as it is appropriately connected and not excessively long. This knowledge is enough for me, and there's no necessity to concern oneself with investing in any extravagant 'interconnect' that would incur a cost of about 1000 GBP unless one intends to listen to signals in the MHz or GHz range :)
My thoughts exactly
Yeah I think understanding some theory here makes it hard to consider these cables anything but a scam. I'd say the main thing possible is there can be some capacitance/induction differences, for example from certain insulation or wiring patterns intended to reduce interference. I've been able to measure a very broad 0.006 dB/octave low pass filter effect I think stems from this when comparing my own cables, but I don't think it's a large enough effect to form any preference when even the most linear response speakers differ and wobble by hundreds of times more than this.
Although I agree with the criticism in the broad sense I would challenge the case that geometric effects on current are always negligible. There is a gathering amount of evidence that the type of pcb interconnects in amplifiers actually sound poor when compared to hand wired versions of the same circuit.
Spend the $1000 on new records. You'll absolutely hear the difference, between albums!
No $1000 interconnects for me. Just a reasonable quality, non-corroded and - esp for speakers - a reasonable thickness. All very cheap to buy or make yourself from parts from an electronics store. And let's not forget whatever 'magic' material is in these $1000 interconnects, is not present inside your amp, CD-player or wherever else you connect them to. The last mile is always some copper trace on a PCB.
Please do a video on the best sounding record sleeves. Tonality, pace, air, timing; all that.
Thanks for helping me become a more discerning shopper in audio equipment. I've learned that I don't have to pay thousands of dollars to have a great sound system. Please, keep up the good work.
I believe it was Tom's Hardware Guide that once did a comparison of a DAC that was integrated onto a motherboard vs. an expensive external DAC. They had invited an audiophile to join them for the testing. He refused to take part in most of it. The results they did collect (it was an abx test as far as I recall) showed that they couldn't tell the difference. Honestly, I think that deep down, the audiophile knew what the outcome would be, and refused to take part to protect his own reputation and ego.
I agree! A $100 DAC is indistinguishable from a $1000 DAC which is indistinguishable from a $10,000 DAC. That's why I bought and use a $100 Khadas KTB DAC fed from a JVC DVD player.
Very true. Many Audiophiles obsess over trivia. Loudfpeakers and room acoustics have by far the biggest influence on audio quality. Moving a pot plant in the listening room will have more effect than using $1000 Magic Cables that defy the laws of physics.
Spot on Geoff. 100 percent agree.
That's your problem, you don't understand that it is exactly because of physics that cables do make a difference. If you understand physics, you would understand the relationships between inductance, capacitance, and resistance, and that this LRC relationship alters waveforms. The cables sheathing as compared to air holds a charge. Teflon I holds little charge as compared to most plastics. That's why capacitors with Teflon a dielectric is a more perfect capacitor than a poly cap, and why poly caps are less compromised than electrolytic capacitors. So, Teflon sheathing will smear the sound less than a polyester sheathing. Denying this is like denying the effect of rubbing a balloon against a polyester carpet and finding that it will now stick to a wall. Trons moving through a dialectic will be impacted by it. The weave of the wire, the amount of current flow, and other factors will impact the amount of the effect, but physics can not be cheated. Now if you are using electronics and speakers using electrolytic capacitors throughout the signal path, the difference may well be unnoticeable. The purer the signal, the more noticeable the effect. You are quite right to bring up room acoustics, they to have physics related impacts upon what you eventually hear. But to deny the physics involved in the electronic/electrical delivery shows great ignorance. Ignorance is man's natural state, it's certainly not an insult. Only God lacks ignorance.
@@louskimming4371 When you consider EVERY other factor involved in sound, ALL the experts in the field Dr Sean Olive , Dr Floyd Toole etc state cables make probably 1 percent difference.
Room acoustics account for 50 percent of the sound you are hearing. That's the Physics.
I would love scientists using pure physics to test your little snake oil theory.
Cables make a difference, but it's so minor compared to all the other factors.
Acousticians and people in the industry who have real tests and use real science and have real qualifications laugh at your snake oil importance of cables.
@@louskimming4371 I have qualifications in Radio Frequency Engineering. The effects you describe are not relevant at audio frequencies.
But why does it matter if the recording of what you listen to, did not get recorded on any special cable. Then the information "waves" should not have been recorded aswell? And you can not measure it at all, so there can not be any difference. Belive it or not but electricity, and how to transfer it, is well known and there is no more to understand.
When people hear great audio for the first time they're primed to believe the audiophile myths. I once thought speaker wires needed lugs or plugs on the ends, that spikes were required on stands, and ditto for similar features which were actually just mounting or installation techniques.
Blind tests are rules. Double-blind tests are rules twice. But $10 000 car tuning not always makes the car move faster - it just enhances the experience of driving this car. Worth it, nothing to regret ))
You are absolutely right. It is a pitty that a lot of other science is not based on double blind testing results either.
First of all, I really enjoy your videos. Thanks very much for making them.
As for $1000 interconnects, I would not listen to them, even if doing so would cost me absolutely nothing.
Why? Because I will not be buying them no matter what, therefore why bother?
As long as the shielding is adequate, the capacitance is kept reasonably low, the conductors are copper (of any variety) rather than CCA (copper clad aluminum), and the connectors are of decent quality, I have not found any compelling reason to spend more than $10 on an "RCA" cable.
Oh, and I use 10 or 12 gauge "lamp" cord for speaker cables. Horrors...
Corrosion at the connectors can indeed become an issue in areas with higher levels of sulfur dioxide in the air.
The tiniest film of dielectric grease works wonders, as does unplugging and re-plugging them periodically.
👍👍
4 of these $1000 "interconnects" would buy you a Nagra IV-S. Sounds great and look at the fabulous engineering! Most $1000 cable live their lives behind the couch. Not to be seen. I make my own cables, buy the plugs and use Gotham's cables (Swiss made) and solder them. Be proud and live happily ever after. I am biased! Keep up these video's. Such an enjoyment!
Recall a discussion with a salesperson in a high end audio shop. He asked how my cables were working for me. I replied " I turn on my system and the electrons find their way from my source thru my amplifiers to my speakers and I hear the music" He responded "what?' His colleague laughed and said "I think he just told you" LOL
I am more than happy with the QED performance interconnects at £26, just as good to my ears as the audiophile ones that cost me a weeks wage and much better than the £10 budget ones off eBay.
so am i decent cable with plugs that give a more positive grip to the sockets.
Cables do make a difference as well as type of caps and coil in speaker crossover. 2nd thing that makes difference even on the same type of cable is geometry. I have been trying interconnects from $10 to $10000. Expensive cables are not necessary better. For example, $10 Klotz MC5000 with $5 Neutrik connectors smoked out most of expensive audiophile cables. Go with decent studio cables (Klotz, Roland, Canare) and forget that everything else exist. Not gonna go into discussions with anyone. I have just wrote this comment here in case someone find it helpful and may save time and money. Cheers!
I was a cable sceptic for many years. I took the “blind” interconnect test between $20 and $100 cables. I preferred the sound of the $100 cables. However I’m not going to spend $1000 on an interconnect even if a blind (or double blind) test confirms a difference! Oh and I will say I did also note a difference with $150 power cables. But again it’s unlikely I would go to $1000 ones?
I DIY'd me a set of Mogami W2497 with KLE copper Harmony connectors. Total of $130. All copper from tip to tip and the connectors are silver plated. I believe getting rid of the brass and gold plating from your connectors, which has bad conductivity, makes a difference. I notice it in the clarity and in the Highs. First cable I have noticed an actual difference.
glad to hear about the corrosion. I had a heated discussion a few years ago with someone that really didn't believe that I could hear a difference when I stripped off a bit of my (pretty budget) silver plated copper speaker cables.
I bought four Audioquest $500 Silver Extreme IC's for $360. Even at the discount price I wasted that money. I learned my lesson! They look nice though!
Made the mistake of going to a Hifi show, a long time ago. Did learn something. In the cable room the only thing that changed, to my ear, was the smile on the demonstrator’s face when he connected hosepipe sized examples.
However, in an awkward corner elsewhere, a German chap was playing some industrial metal, if that is a genre, through a small floor standing loudspeaker and removing and replacing one part of a two piece “cone” beneath. He would raise and lower his eyebrows. The improvement to the sound’s definition was unmistakeable. His unforgettable comment on the music in accented English was, “ Is not nice, but is good”
Many moons ago I went to an audio show in Canada. The guy from that AQ cable company was there with his own little demonstration area.
So, we all situated ourselves in the chairs provided, with music playing, waiting for the sales pitch to start.
The guy came out and pitched his new cables, saying how they opened the sound, improved definition and soundstage... you know the usual spiel.
Then he ducked down out of sight for a moment to plug in his marvelous new cable and Son-Of-A-Gun if there wasn't a very noticeable improvement in the sound! Everyone heard it.
A couple of minutes later the display is unattended as the salesmaker is over talking with a couple of customers. So I went behind it for a look...
The entire place nearly burst into a riot when I pulled out an equalizer, connected into the system and placed it on the display for all to see.
The salesmaker made a mad bolt out a side door.
Security showed up and calmed the fracas then escorted my friends and I out of the hall with instructions never to return.
I didn't need to go back... I knew in that moment the whole game is fake.
Yes, I would listen to a hifi system that utilised a £1000 cable. I think I would be extremely unlikely to be persuaded to buy a £1000 cable.
The first ever hifi system I put together, included a CD player I purchased for £2200. I’ve never been a TV addict, a video or film enthusiast. I’ve never invested heavily in viewing equipment. For years, I never had a DVD player, until a friend bought me one for £18 from Tesco. I plumbed it into my hifi system. I’ve a number of duplicate copies of CDs. Birthday presents Etc. I put a copy of the same CD, one in my £2200 CD layer the other in my. £18 DVD player. After volume compensation, it was extremely difficult to tell them apart. I think that speaks volumes.
The fact my blu-ray player cost £50 compared to the Goldmund Eidos at $135,000 has never prevented me enjoying a good movie. DM
In the electronic measurement (calibration) industry its all about reliable and short connections. These always provide the best results when measuring signals. Loose connections bad... tight connections good, shorter the lead the better. I make all my own RCA cables. Coaxial is perfect.
I am currently utilizing approximately 10,000 interconnects/cables, which provides a noticeably superior auditory experience for me. I am able to discern the difference in sound quality. Moreover, I have the advantage of being able to test various types of equipment cables within my own residence. Consequently, my purchasing decisions are primarily determined by my personal experiences and the performance of these equipment in my system.
I worked in a HiFi shop briefly and I realised some customers' opinions were coming directly from something they'd read (I used to read them all for free) and I heard them talk to eachother with these opinions, including some the sales floor people too. The way it came out wasn't always the usual "being as percentage of budget should be interconnect" to kick off discussion. One time there was this speaker and interconnect combination that supposed to have some subtle sound quirk, I heard two customers and one sales guy listening test and discussing hearing it whatever it was supposed to be, while I'm hearing something else.... and I'm thinking "can't ANY of you hear that? ??"
5 mos. ago, I know. You may not see this comment. But I'm reminded of an experience I had a a hi-end audio shop in San Diego in the 1980s. The staff and customers were comparing two bits of gear -- whether amps, speakers, turntables, or phono cartridges, I don't remember. It was a very expensive system for the day, well beyond my means. So there was all of this discussion about which was "better." Meanwhile, what I heard was a badly off-center record. To me the music was excruciating. I had to leave the room. Nobody else seemed to notice! They continued to debate the gear while I left the room.
I reached to the conclusion it's all in the mind @@curtiscroulet8715
Cables have always been snakeoil, but to see them carry it over to digital cables is just hilarious.
Many musicians can hear the difference between different guitar cables. Mainly when it's a radical difference between them such as a very cheap one versus a reasonably decent one. Or a normal length versus a significantly shorter one. But the reason for this is cable capacitance and the way it affects a high impedance signal. HiFi equipment line outputs are low impedance so this cable capacitance has far less (practically zero) effect. That's the guts of it really.
Absolutely correct. DM
I thought I was really going wild when I bought a pair of TRS to XLR interconnects for $60. I've also used a coat hanger as an HDMI interconnect, so, you know.
I've just spent the first week at the Proms at the Royal Albert Hall. 7 or 8 concerts of various kinds. I heard Benjamin Grosvenor playing the piano and will go the 250 miles down to London again later on to hear Yuja Wang. Anyway for these first concerts I stood slightly left of centre in the front of the arena. Now if I'd have stood 10 metres either side, it would have sounded different. If I had sat in the stalls, or in the gods, or the gallery it would also have sounded different. From the front some of the violins are just 3 or 4 metres from my ears. The trumpets are probably 10 times this distance. So I hear the trumpets some time after I hear the violins. But they are all (more or less) in front of me, unless I turn my head a bit. Sometimes there are instruments up in the gallery. My room is not as high as the Albert Hall and my speakers struggle to make sounds appear to come from so high above me.
When I listen at home, I am aware that there are numerous microphones connected by numerous cables of various lengths. The sound goes along these to a big mixing desk in a van outside the hall. I guess the phase and time delay between these various cables makes a difference to the sound which eventually gets to me, 250 miles away, via various cables, air of various densities and temperatures, and even via satellites. I often record the broadcasts on, horror of horrors, a DAB radio with an SD Card slot.
But it generally sounds musically satisfying because it is the music I listen to through my 76 year old ears, and I grew out of the search for perfection 50 years ago.
Excellent way of holding your audience rapt all the way to the end. Promise it Bettie and Debbie...!
I was with you as you compared Coke to Pepsi and, obviously, Coke would win (incidentally, while at a restaurant, I ordered a Coke but was served Pepsi...I immediately noted it and the waiter was surprised as she thought everyone would accept any cola offered). However, you lost me when you revealed that you didn't like either!
What were we talking about again? Cables? Put me in the "no" column for $1000 cables (unless they are VERY long).
And yes to star-quad cables. They are great for low-noise (and, typically, high flexibility). I used them in the cinema industry when wiring up magnetic heads for 70mm and 35mm projectors where the preamps were, typically, 10m (or more) away from the projectors/mag heads.
Here's a very simple test anyone can do right now, with almost no effort...
Relax, let your face to limp ... now listen to the sound of your room. Got it?
Now, using your fingers, gently pull your ears back and up a little bit...
Hear the sound change?
Relax again.
Then without touching your ears concentrate full hard on the sound of the room...
Uh-huh...
This is actually a normal reflex when paying close attention.
Now you can ask "what changed" and answer "my hearing changed."
$1000 interconnects can be detrimental to your system in unexpected ways; these high-end cables are often heavy, thick, stiff, and come with very heavy solid and tight-fitting plugs; they can place quite a bit of mechanical strain on the RCA connectors of the amp & CD-player etc.
And, of course on the inside of the amp there is likely a _much_ lower $/m bit of cable that takes the signal from the RCA connector to the volume control, if not simply a decent length of unshielded copper track on the PCB that serves the input selector circuitry. So the signal sees $1000 of super highway, followed by a few inches of dirt-track to negotiate, so to speak.
You might be surprised by how many amps and receivers I've replaced all the connectors on after someone put massively heavy cables on them.
FYI... the original RCA plug was designed to be supported by the center pin, not the shield ring.
Audio pro here (and hifi enthusiast, but not an "audiophile"...that very word fills me with horror). Only twice (in many, MANY years) have I ever "noticed a difference" in cables, and in both cases it was hardly surprising. One time was with speaker cables. I was having a party, wanted my hifi out of the way, so moved it to my bedroom and ran long cables to the speakers. Long, cheap cable I'd "borrowed" from work. Sounded crap...and no big surprise there! To be honest, I thought it would be up to the task, but it just wasn't. Kept at a more "normal" length, the cable would've been just fine. Second time was a cheap 3.5mm to RCA cable from my Mac to an amp. Nice-looking cable, cosmetically, but had woefully inadequate shielding. Again, no big surprise, and in a less electrically-noisy environment it would likely have performed just fine.
People who spend insane amounts on "interconnects" would do well to understand that audio signals travel all over the place through thin strips of ordinary copper PCB tracks inside equipment. So long as the external wiring is at least as good as that, which most "ordinary" cables are, and as long as cable lengths are kept as short as possible, then all will be fine. Cables have to be pretty bad before you'll notice any negative effects, and there's really no significant difference between an "adequate" cable and an "audiophile" cable. Besides the price tag 😄
_"and hifi enthusiast, but not an "audiophile"...that very word fills me with horror"_
Recent introduction...
Friend: "This is Doug our resident audiophile"
Me: "I see no reason to be insulting."
New Guy: "Laughing hysterically".
Back in the '70s or '80s, whenever high-end speaker cable had just become a thing, Stereo Review magazine did a double-blind study comparing the new cable with hardware store lamp cord, using audiophiles as judges. The result: no significant difference. I've been suspicious of any and all audiophile claims ever since.
Stereo Review was sure no Bible. Eveeyyhing was "decent." You didn't even have to read the reviews; you knew they were going to say that from the start. Despite being technically knowledgeable Julian Hirsch couldn't hear differences between things, for instance saying all amplifiers sounded alike. When some high end audio reviewers would spot him at a show, one of them mentioned that they had an irresistable urge to sneak up behind him and look into his ear.
@@sidesup8286 If an amplifier sounds like anything but the music it is amplifying, it is not a good amplifier so how could you tell the difference between good amps? They should all sound the same...like the music they are representing.
Amplifiers presumably don't necessarily amplify the whole spectrum equally. So it's probably pretty subjective
I tried a speaker cable that made around a 50% improvement in the sound quality. It singlehandedly convinced me that GREAT improvements are possible with cables. Even a 25 to 30% improvement is a whole new listening experience. I knew i.provements were possible by experimenting with various cables, but never anything like that percentage. Estimated of course. It did cost in the thousands (new). It was a used pair.
Cable manufacturers buy their raw materials and each one does different things. How they draw the metal, how they cool the metal, some use different guage strands in the same cable, they have different windings, they have a different core and spacers, a variety of metals in conjunction is sometimes used. Different connectors are used, solder of different purity is used. Some conductors are even welded. One manufacturer even puts light dimming extremely high voltages into the cable. Some use damping materials within the cable. The cable jackets are known to be able to affect the sound. One Cable Designers designed fighter planes for the Air Force; physicists are commonly used. One track mind people think they know it all; when really they know nothing, from their cheap experiments with cheap cables.
@@sidesup8286 Maybe your original cables just sucked? Maybe they were too long or you had them crossed with other wires.
After a certain point any improvements are only visible on a graph. Your speakers and listening environment are the biggest factors.
I have an example of where expectations influence opinions. I owned a barber shop and one of my elderly customers had recently been in hospital for a few days . This stay was in Stamford hospital. He said he preferred Stamford for hospitalization as the food was better than that in Peterborough's hospital. The fact was , the food served in Stamford was prepared in Peterborough's hospital kitchen and delivered by van to Stamford. This I knew as true as the van driver was also a customer of mine. Human beings are easily influenced by what they expect.
This example is not that good, because a lot of food taste better if not eaten "direct". Stewz, Lasagne, Carbonara is a few examples that will tatse better if you wait a day before eating it. Expensive cable though is a total scam. There is powercables for 50k that even measure more poorly then the standard 10$ one. And HDMI cable, and even ethernet cables for many thousands of dollars.
I agree completely. If a number of "good ears" cannot reliably detect a favorable difference in double blind testing, there is no "cash worthy" difference. Manufacturers and reviewers make many claims (anyone can claim anything), but rarely is there any proper evidence. Much of this phenomena (paying big $ for audio illusions) reflects that audiophilia has little to do with reason.
Audio comparisons are always one of the hardest to perform. Unlike an image comparison that can be displayed side by side, audio comparisons have to be made serially with some time gap in between. Audio comparisons realizes on one to remember the quality of the the last audio segment that has been played and compare it the present audio segment. I'm guessing a persons ability to remember audio quality can be problematic and subjective.
Critical listening on audio, is done on repeat of very small and specific parts, and you will only remember it for a very short time. So anyone telling you need to listen to the cable for a long time (burn in) already then you know it is bs. If someone says a cable is directional run and never look back.
A masterclass in audio...thank you.... I just reconfigured my systems layout in my room (my BIL's advice) and improved my sound considerably. I also went back to my good but inexpensive cables (to my BIL's horror) soon after and hear no difference.
The reason for the cable switch was the high$$ cables were big fat ugly and hard to configure. The cheaper ones are more pliable and easy to use. The whole thing looks more tidy and sounds the same. Do I have a bias due to the looks of the cheaper ones? Maybe.
I have to say...the Morrisey bit about we all want to be loved just like everybody else does...well that had me rolling on the floor! Great video! And yes...Wire is wire...Sorry to piss on anyone's cheerios but it is a fact! I have worked not in the audio field but as an Industrial Maint Tech for years...yep! It's wire, it moved electrons! End of story! Just subbed!
I really like your videos. It makes me think
I remember being shown 2 concepts about mic preamps back in the day, one was " adding color" the other was "wire plus gain", hinting at the "fact" that wire tends to be transparent, so "wire plus gain" stood for a transparent gain stage. The other thing that comes to mind is that far more important than participation bias and confirmation bias is the so-called "belief perseverance" and the "backfire effect", meaning that the more one is confronted with actual scientific facts contradicting ones' core beliefs (such as that cables do make a difference) the more he/she will defend his/ her core beliefs. That response closely mimics the 'fight or flight" response and originates in the same part of the brain. It's base programming and people fall into these patterns, regardless whether the topic is politics, religion or the audiophile hobby. It's human nature.
Exactly so on the preamps. A transistor preamp will normally be designed for accuracy because when transistors sound bad they sound very bad indeed. A tube preamp on the other hand will often have both gain and output controls so you can set the gain to get the required amount of tube warmth, then set the correct level with the output control. DM
@@AudioMasterclass Thanks, my point being that there was a time when cable (wire) was considered transparent by professional for all practical purpose, hence the expression "wire plus gain" for a transparent gain stage. I do adhere to that belief with the caveat that cable impedance does matter in digital connections.
I've had all the air in my lounge pumped out & replaced with genuine silent air from the purcell room. I'm saving up for RAH silence. my neighbours think I'm mad BUT THEY JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND.
It's a generaly known fact audiophiles have sixth sense hearing if not radio frequency or subsonic hearing.
It's easy to test though, run an audio signal through 30 and 1000 (your currency here) cable, sample the result with a dac at 24 bits 96khz, invert one signal, time align them and add them up. The result is the difference between cables. Listen to the difference at the same volume as you listen to the audio signal. Can't hear a thing? Boost the signal and if you just hear the noise floor, there's no difference that you'll hear when listening normally, unless yoe have 6th sense hearing. Then you don't need cables at all.
Dac should be adc
Audiophiles might say that something was lost in the digitising process and that would be whatever adds the value to a $1000 cable. I wouldn't say that of course but someone will. DM
You can rely on measurements. They are objetive if done properly. And, in fact, they usually show no audible diference between 1000£ and 10£ cables. But like anything else, due to participation and confirmation bias, or even the placebo effect, what matters is that, at least for the listener who bought the cables (or someone who knows how much they cost), the music sounds better. Just like buying a beautifully designed tube amp or pair of speakers. The way they look and feel makes them sound better to your ears... Great video as usual!!!
It's the "Timex Conundrum" ... You go out and buy a very beautiful luxury watch made by a world famous craftsman... but you end up constantly asking your friends what time it is so you can adjust your high end watch to the right time.
Imho, a listening test is very subjective. A technical test with a cro and signal gen could show measurable differences of band width, resistance, capacitance, noise etc. To me, this is a proper test and would likely show, given clean termination, the truth.
Spot on! 😊
I can't believe how much some people self-deceive when it comes to stuff like cables. So long as they are mechanically sound and are properly shielded there is no hearable difference beyond a low price point.
I Believe in good cables, NOT expensive ones. I always make my own ones and i use good microphone cables that cost less than a pound for 3 ft and good connectors that i get from ebay or aliexpress. works great and sound great.
Way way back I used two stage monitors for a stereo in my living room. That isn't the point. I also used the bands speaker cables. It wasn't the best sound. So one day I heard about oxygen free cable and picked some up, monster cable, and switchcraft phone plugs. Yes that's what we used 40 years ago. Anyway I made two OFC speaker cables and swapped them with the band's cables and there was a noticeable difference, in my living room. I found the OFC weren't better. It's just that the bands cables were crap. Or more politely, they were of poor quality and poorly made. So I saved my money and made OFC speaker cables for all the monitors and PA cabinets. The result, any improvement of the band's sound wasn't noticeable. What can I say.
I get it, you might be right, but about 30 years ago I bought some very expensive cables (speaker and interlink) from Transparant. A few years ago I bougth some relatively cheap cables that were hot in the market to see if quality had improved with time. I had hooked them up and was playing music when my wife came home from work. She didn't know I had changed anything but she said: "What have you done with the system? It sounds like crap!". ..?
This wouldn't be the first time that an audiophile's wife can hear more than the audiophile can. DM
@@AudioMasterclass At first I was in denial, I bought the stuff. In the end I atmitted she was right. Anyway we both heard a difference between the cables. To decide what cable was best took a couple of hours though:)
Over 98% of this discussion is crom people who've never come close to living with a thousand dollar cable. Nothing quite as meaninful as discussing how nice Spain is, with people who've never been to Spain.
Made the mistake of going to a Hifi show, a long time ago. Did learn something. In the cable room the only thing that changed, to my ear, was the smile on the demonstrator’s face when he connected hosepipe sized examples.
However, in an awkward corner elsewhere, a German chap was playing some industrial metal, if that is a genre, through a small floor standing loudspeaker and removing and replacing one part of a two piece “cone” beneath. He would raise and lower his eyebrows. The improvement to the sound’s definition was unmistakeable. His unforgettable comment on the music in accented English was, “ Is not nice, but is good”.
I'd rather spend $1000 on acoustic treatment for my room than on cables... I did a blind test once on a hi-end store, we were 4 people listening. The test system was extremely high-end. I could hear the difference between $0.5/m cables and $100/m cables but I didn't hear any difference above that price point, nor did the other 3 people... And all this despite the store owner trying to sway us toward the most expensive stuff
Just make a null test, as I suggested to a customer that wanted to test any difference. Same cable length. Needless to say that the Null was perfect.
Easily enough done ...
Signal generator feeds 2 cables ... one a control the other under test... exactly the same signal.
Oscilloscope monitors the far end of the two cables, which are loaded with identical impedances, and does your null test between them.
The really neat thing about null tests is that they show any and all differences, without discrimination or filtering ... Channel 1 shows the control cable. Channel 2 shows the cable under test. The third "null" trace shows the difference. It does not matter what you feed in... sine waves, square waves, music, your uncles bathroom habits... displayed right down to microvolts.
If you get a flat line... no difference... easy peesy, mystery solved.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 I do know. That's why I suggested him to do it :-) He have made it with white noise.
@@Not-Only-Reaper-Tutorials
My explanation was mostly for readers who might not know how to set it up...
The idea that you might not know how was running a rather distant second. Note that I never said you didn't know.
Blue Jeans Cable for me.
Their prices seem quite reasonable compared to some www.bluejeanscable.co.uk DM
Wilkos used to sell a good quality speaker wire but it sold so slowly they didnt bother reordering it and the cable drum has been sitting
empty for 3 years , which has brought an end to my speaker projects as you dont see many washing machines in skkips these days.
There is one thing to notice here, that is almost never discussed...
_ALL of these fancy cables and doodads audiophiles love so much are external to the active equipment in their systems ... and... they are replaceable without the use of tools_
They know their audience well.
This actually points out a very interesting divide in the hobby ...
Those with technical skills are not, by and large, cable enthusiasts. They tend to use well made but relatively inexpensive cables because they know, from training and experience, the expensive ones are simply a waste of money.
These same people, informed by technical skills, are also prone to point out the lies and misinformation in the advertising of these products.
Those with almost no technical knowledge are the ones playing with fancy cables, all wrapped up in the garbage handed out by audio reviewers and manufacturer's advertising sites. They claim magnificent change and improvement in ways that are generally known to be impossible while relying on their ears without ever looking beyond their own subjective experiences. Heaven forbid they should explore WHY they heard what they did!
This group will decry the use of skills they don't have and equipment they don't understand, rather than admitting they have no real clue what's going on inside the boxes.
The snake oil guys cater to this second group for two pirmary reasons:
1) Being the most ignorant person in the room also makes you the easiest person to lie to.
2) Easy changes sell better than those requiring skills.
It's sad, but in the 6 or so years since I rejoined this hobby, the only real observation I can make is that a once enjoyable hobby has reduced itself to a childish pissing contest between smart and stupid.
If either side of the problem had even the first lick of common sense, they would be helping eachother.
I can only say that whenever I would hear the difference between a 10$ and a 1000$ cable, surely it is not worth the difference of cost.
But I can tell that I hear the difference between a very cheap 1m RCA cable and a 5-10$ standard grade cable. I don't hear hear the most difference in the high frequencies (as I expected), but the basses are less deep and dynamic. Not an important difference, but there is, and it is worth the difference of cost.
You question the use of the term 'interconnect' by audiophiles. Although I take your point and agree that they are just cables, the term does help to clarify that it is the link between say a CD player and amplifier or between a pre and power amplifier that is being spoken about as opposed to speaker cable.
Different things do often benefit from different names. I sense it's more a matter though that people will buy $1000 interconnects, but would baulk at $1000 cables.
I had a work mate that spent $2K AU about same as $1.6K US and I asked him if I could borrow them for a night,not a weekend,just one night,and he refused,I think he thought I would make fun of him,if I hadn't heard a difference,compared to my own DIY cables,amps and speakers,In Australia finding a good tube tech is quite diificult,and I had to learn how to bias my own amps,when he bought new tubes for his original Dynaco ST70 and needed the tubes biased correctly he didn't have a problem asking me to do it for him. 😆
a lot of speculation, I have 1000.00 XLR cables but I make the more critical digital cable myself for about 26.00, thanks!
Yeah, I often look at these things the way I look at cars. Hyper-cars are often several times more expensive than super-cars (the reasons are usually not very clear to satisfy the price difference), while super-cars themselves are often several times more expensive that regular sports-cars which are quite close or on par with the super-cars in outright performance, just not looking as outrageous as super-cars often are. So, the are differences, but not at the level that makes much difference. The 1000 pound or dollar cable might make a difference but not the one remarkable enough for me to spend that much on a cable.
What cables do you use and/or recommend?
Take your pick from the Canfield Audio catalogue www.canford.co.uk/ DM
This is just another example of the way things are in a 40 plus year service economy were a lot of items are purchased with credit. Split hairs and blow up the significance of each hair.
I'm not an audiophile nor do I want to be one. I do like listening to music on a good sounding system. I also enjoy watching movies and I have a nice home theater. I have never heard of a home theater installer using super expensive cables in an installation.
You might actually be surprised to know how much "Science" and "Technique" exists only in the Audio hobby ... Reality be damned, we're going to believe what we want!
I once saw a $1000 power cable that goes from the socket to your amplifier. I couldn’t belief anyone would invest in this. After all the power travels for kilometres tough the power grid in to a transformer and along standard power cables in to the house to your socket. Somehow that final bit of cable from the socket to the amplifier is magically going to make a difference, I don't think so.
I can only imagine that such a wonderful power cable will transmit whatever interference there is on the mains much more accurately. DM
I have found that some of the very best "Speaker" cabling can be purchased at The Home Depot, in the extension-cord department.
16ga lamp cord ... the nice soft flexible stuff... perfect.
This argument will rage for eternity but we all secretly know bell wire wrapped in tin foil sounds great (mains cable isn't bad) and that the BD140/39 are the finest transistors ever ! and as for Valves isn't that just more 2nd harmonics rubbish ? fascinating stuff..cheers...Give Betty her money back and give Debbie a decent Tee Shirt !
I always liked the BC109. A bit hobbyist perhaps but I always had a soft spot for it. BC177 not so much. DM
Most of it down to marketing. In particular, the technique of FUD - Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. Call something an "upgrade" and Mr / Ms Muggins are bound to but into it.
There are two steps in every 'upgrade' : what difference does it make, and what is that difference worth to you. With cables, I would say that, among technically decent cables, there won't be any audible difference, so what it's worth to you becomes a moot point. I simply buy cables I can trust (which does not include anything built just for looks or a low price point, even though they may be fine).
You are indeed a wise person. DM
@@AudioMasterclass Not a patch on you, David. But after 45 years of upgrading (sort of high end now but nothing crazy) one tends to get a little wiser (or just madder in other cases).
“If the opportunity came up?” Yes I would. I would love to. Just for my own sake. Ive heard quite an obvious differences in instrument cables of various kinds - so would it apply here? No point in saying “no” (kneejerk kneejerk): because I have never listened to them. But I want to!😂
I'm using ordinary but well made solid core aerial/antenna cable from NKT covered in a snakeskin like sock and with RCA/Phono plugs soldered on, using a larger than average solder joint to compensate for the higher restistance in the solder itself.
Works absolutely perfect. And they're dirt cheap.
Wow... What is it RG-58u? RG-59u?
That's RF transmitter coax and it has a fairly high capacitance. Generally, given the low power levels in interconnects (it's in microwatts) you will do best with ordinary microphone cable which is more than adequate for runs up to 50 feet or so.
This is one case where lighter wire is actually better.
Well, you know what. Losses in RF (which is still nothing more than plain old AC) coax is measured in dB per 100m (In Europe). The higher the frequency, the higher the loss in dB. That may very well be due to capitance, seems plausible, but that's all levels of MHz and GHz going though 100 meters of coax.
So instead of tripping over all of this, how about just looking at my fine little interconnection here, *transferring 20-20KHz AC through 60-80 centimeters coax* and tell me if capitance influencing MHz and GHz with a number of dB over hundreds of meters, *have any impact at all here.* No. Zero.
All this theory you go through in order to be right. It doesn't really matter at all.
I don't need 50 feet of cable. I need two and a half. So come on, okay.
@@DK640OBrianYT
RG-59 has a capacitance of about 20pf per foot. At the impedances in the receiving end you would probably be down about 3 or 4 db at 20khz in a 6 foot cable. (120pf and 100k == 13khz corner frequency)
There are other reasons not to use heavy and stiff wire for interconnects. You probably won't believe how often I've replaced the female connectors on the back of some very expensive gear after a cable broke them.
But, it's okay, you do you.... I remain unimpressed.
@@Douglas_Blake_579
*Listen to me*
*I'm telling You*
*You can't do that*
I'm doing it. Therefore I can.
@@DK640OBrianYT
Whatever
The best way to listen _to_ $1000 interconnects is to apply increasing amounts tensile stress to them while plucking them until they become clearly audible.
Audio cables for me must have the following properties: Non-oxidizing (gold-plated) plugs, well shielded and well built for durability. That's it and I sure as hell don't have to spend $1000 or more to achieve that. 😁
Having the plug and socket made from the same material is more important than what the material is! Dissimilar metals + electricity causes corrosion.
@@fredygump5578
Not when interfaced with noble metals such as gold or platinum.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 In the field of high speed digital systems where I worked, connecting a gold plated connector with a nickel plated connector would soon fail. And platinum was probably too cost prohibitive.
@@donaldbundy3499
Yep, I've seen that in some cases. But it's really not much of an issue with home networking where most signals are 2.5gbs or less.
Especially if they are diamond-encrusted! Lab-created diamonds are really noisy, though, if it was really noisy in the factory when they were forged.
🤔I don’t believe I’ve ever heard a cable, but then again, I’ve never heard an Angel singing either!😉
Some people can’t seem to grasp the concept of diminishing returns. 😵💫
Hard core enthusiasts typically fall into this category.
👍My man, Dave! Best Audio “biased” channel ever!🤣 Much respect, David!👨🏻
no, not diminishing returns. Just no returns.
@@polarbear3427 Make no mistake..electrical and physical parameters are real entities. The issue is that beyond using reasonable quality 12 or 14 awg stranded copper wire with good connection integrity over the typical speaker wire length in a home audio system, any “improvements” will be impossible for a human to discern, but are quite willing to be imagined.
A lot of the technical arguments made apply to very high frequencies that can’t be heard, even by a dog, or very high powers or very long speaker wire lengths that most people having nothing to do with. Hence, “good” is actually “good enough.” But if people want to spend 10 times more than necessary for “peace of mind,” it’s their money, not mine. They can waste their money as they like. 😉
I already spend some serious money. Moving forward, will Not. Thanks for the enlightment.
Remember when I bought my first lcd tv and Blu-ray player for a lot of money. The salesmen tried to convince me to spend another couple of hundred pounds on some audioquest hdmi cable. He just couldn’t get it in his head that a digital signal either works or it doesn’t, that the bog standard hdmi cable will suffice.
There could be a grey area where jitter could creep in. I have in mind to look into this further for a future video.
Question: Did you find someone in your circle who could confirm, that CD's get a bit wobbly and therefore present the laser/lens-servo with challenges.
CDs can indeed be wobbly. I once had a disc that rattled in the player but the audio seemed OK. Certainly not ideal though. Early car CD players had problems. My first was a Sony which was good. That got stolen and I replaced it with some other well-known brand but I can't remember which. Any bump in the road wouldn't make it skip but it would mute for a moment with a slight chirping nose. Irritating. DM
$1000 will get you a good used slate-bed pool table in the UK.
I know what gives *me* value for money. :)
$1k cables would sure make me feel special, but then kind of dirty after a while. Best to avoid. Another thought: imagine the costs of setting up an ATMOS system with said cables!
Sure, I'll listen to them. As long as someone else is paying for them.
Cables can make a difference. Different isn't necessarily "better".
This
I only dig out my $1k cables for those special albums which were also recorded using $1k cables or better.
When a power supply toroid with a rated capability to source 20 Amps of Current costs 129 bucks and HEXFRED ultra high-speed, soft recovery, diodes a few bucks apiece, if you're going to spend a grand on a straight wire, maybe a meter in length, invest the cash matriculating into 3rd semester Physics, E&M, and a semester of Partial Differential Eqs., then you'll know how looney tunes the cost of the $1000 wire is. But as the Kinks in 20th Century Man sang, "Its the age of insanity". So if you're wealthy and stupid, enjoy.
Theoretically speaking, I have just completed a mix and now I'm doing the obligatory "listen on as many different speakers, headphones, ear buds, car stereos as possible" test. If the mix still sounds good on all of your available options a much different and reasonable question arises.
Is it statistically possible that every single device or place that I've just listened to, all happen to be using the exact same cabling/wiring? I think not.
If someone believes that they've somehow unlocked some mysterious amazing things from my mix... Who am I to disabuse them of their belief? 😂
To cover all bases perhaps you should also audition your mix through $1000 1-metre RCA cables. Just so you can hear it as audiophiles will. DM
Haha! That's definitely going to affect the clients' bottom line when they see that bill. 😮
@@gabrielgodwin9953 Do you buy new cables for every mix you make? Wow!
Haha! Of course not... but that expense would certainly be passed on to the clients.
Not that I have many. 😂 It would be an unfair burden on them to make such a foolish decision.
However, if someone were willing to invest in supplying all of my equipment, headphones, cars, etc. with magic copper wiring... well, I would accept the generous donation.
I have most definately heard a cable. I recently replaced a 25yr old amp with a new one. It was a huge improvement. Then on a whim I replaced the old originally provided interconnect between it and my CD player with a £27 half meter mid range one. It was another clear improvement. That'll do me now though.
While I mostly agree, what is the point. if 1000€ cables makes someone happy, why not, unless they need to be protected of making such purchase :) The biggest reason however that a cable just one link on the chain, so how ever good they are, the recoding is not that good, make hundreds of maters of far "inferior" cable.
Here is another test you can perform easily, that's what I did when I was working at a HiFi dealer. You give your customer 3 cables to test them, privately at home on his own stereo. You don't tell him the price and you make sure that all 3 cables are really different because there are a lot cables out there that look different but have more or less the same thing inside like i.e. the classic copper cable with silver coating. Now when the client returns the cables you simply ask him what the differences were on his stereo. "How did they sound mate?" And then wait for a description and surprisingly with 80-90% accuracy people describe them the same way. Maybe that was like the horse counting and only happened because I bend my head in a certain way but I guess not because my co-workers did the same with the same results.
The real problem with cables is that if you go into a factory and let them produce a few kilometers for you all the cables cost more or less the same. The differences are usually only a few cents while the sales prices can be insanely different. There are cables that cost 1000€ per meter and there are cables that cost 100€ per meter but they are basically the same only that one cable has another colour or looks more fancy in general but the real cable inside is identical. So undoubtably there are scammers out there, but that does not mean all cables sound the same. Only because there was one Bernie Madoff does not mean you can't make money with stocks. Some will rip you off and some don't, that's life and has nothing to do with HiFi in particular.
What I dont understand is how ANYONE could believe that a $1000 cable at home would somehow give them better reults than the $30-$150 microphone cable the studio used to record the audio in the first place. Or even worse, the cable they had to bodge together after the drummer tripped over the cbles while setting up his kit. And we all know that kind of thing happens
Not to mention the number of times the pro-cables get stepped on.
No names, but only last night I saw some RCA cables thet were GBP 25,000! You'd have to be insane.
There’s a word for it in marketing, which I can’t remember, but it’s where a manufacturer has a crazy-priced product that no-one is expected to buy to make their merely high-priced products seem good value. Could be that.
I just noticed from your thumbnail today how much you look like Paul McCartney I know this is older but had to mention
Just payed 225 $ for 3 meter RCA's and 2,5 meter speaker cables from Mogami. Refuse to pay more.
Platinum coated gold is the best.
I think of it that way. Imagine how much your sound will be improved when played trough a $1000 cable. Now imagine how much your sound will be improved if you put an extra $1000 towards your amplifier and speakers.
Agreed. Speakers in particular. DM
But what about 50k cables? I am assuming that is only for billionaires like jewellery and money no object, and is a couple of hours interest on the money? I feel very sorry for "normal" people that buy that kind of snake oil cables, by that time i belive it is an addiction as serious and economical devastating as gambling.
I have the bad luck to clearly hear a significant difference between cables (a.o.) on my system.
I have the good luck to make the cables myself, so I did not exceed 70 euro for a rca-interlink.
At least I didn't hear any different on speaker, and on headphone. But I can hear the different in IEM. It is not an illusion or psychology feeling. It may depends on how sensitive is your gear.
Is it worth to spend 1000 dollar is another issue. But I can hear it 😂