Why Did Marika Shatter the Elden Ring? | Elden Ring Lore
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- čas přidán 24. 06. 2024
- Although Alecto appears in only one item description in Elden Ring, we can get a surprising amount of insight just from her name, which is a genius allusion to Greek and Roman mythology. In turn, that lets us uncover all kinds of parallels that can help us answer one of the game's biggest mysteries: Why did Marika shatter the Elden Ring?
In this video, I explore the Night of the Black Knives, the Furies, the Aeneid, and evidence of a potential alliance between Ranni, Rykard, and Mohg.
Oh and a quick word on Black Knife Tiche, who, let's be honest, is the true Elden Lord. While in Elden Ring, she's the daughter of Alecto, her name is another spelling for Tyche, the Greek goddess of luck and fortune. While I couldn't find any myths that linked Tyche with Alecto or the other Furies, Tyche was sometimes paired with Nemesis, who punished hubris and excess. And Nemesis, like the Furies, was a daughter of the goddess Night.
00:00 Introduction
01:02 Alecto in Greek Myth
02:18 Alecto in The Aeneid
04:29 An Alliance Against Miquella?
#eldenring #eldenringlore #ranni #alecto - Hry
Somehow, despite having completed both Hades and Elden Ring, I've never noticed Alecto's name. Sure am glad other people are more observant than me.
Same.... I'm ashamed.
Referring to Mohg’s base of operations as “Neverland Ranch”, got me losing my shit 🤣 funniest damn thing I’ve heard in a long time.
WOW! IF all of it is true, the implications could be HUGE! It would make a lot of sense though! Having Miquella knowingly kidnapped by Mohg, IF Miquella had become a full God, Ranni's forces would have things MUCH harder! Miquella is the most fearsome Empyrean, after all! Having Malenia go on a mad search to find him, got her out of the way! Also, Miquella would have declared war on Ranni and all of her forces and allies! They knew they had no chance if Miquella succeeded in his goals, they would have been screwed! FRICK! (tin-foil hat coming), If Malenia wasn't cured yet, she could have turned Leyendell into Caelid! S%#@, if Marika KNEW about Miquella and how Godwyn was killed, they had to have her Shatter the Elden RIng to take out BOTH Marika and Radagon, because he would have been PISSED if he learned the truth! Morgott would have torn Mohg a new one for sure! No one else has talked about this like YOU have! DAMN! Keep these coming!
Thank you!
Miquella being the most fearsome Emyrean has far less to do with physical prowess and more to do with actual godliness. It's more a statement of deferential respect from Melania than it is something to take literally. That said, in the dlc which will probably take place in a dream (we already know dreamscapes exist, via the deathbed dream) we may see a truly fearsome version of Miquella.
If there was a true successor in spirit to Marika tho, I feel it's Miquella. I personally think that he and Melania are two aspects of the same being, similar to the relationship of their "parents." The Haligtree has a lot of twin babies and mothers hugging young children. I think the iconography there lends to both theories and I'm excited for the dlc.
All that said, Ranni was the chosen successor and clearly had as much, if not more influence in court than anyone save Marika if she was able to enact that coup. There are a couple possibilities that I don't think alot of people think about, namely that Radahn was working with Ranni.
We know he stops the stars to halt his sisters destiny but we don't know why. What we know is that the two fingers Ranni slays fell from a meteor into the cathedral of manus celes (literal translation is heavenly hand or hand of heaven) so it's possible he held them in place so they couldn't come and force her to succeed Marika. Marikas godhood is an enslavement to the greater will, she has no choice or say but Ranni still did at this point in time, which I find odd. Her two fingers could not have been active before then either because their appearance is what triggers the baleful shadow and it's death is what leaves them vulnerable for her to confront.
With all the meteorite and space iconography in the divine towers, I tend to believe each two fingers was sent by the greater will to enslave each individual demigod, with the towers being erected where they landed. Rannis was on its way when Radahn arrested the heavens and the part of Rannis plan that went awry was Melania fucking his shit up and the rot causing him to lose his mind, putting a major halt to Rannis plans. Nobody is insane enough till we come along to try and fight Radahn so they amend their plans.
Alot of speculation but thats how most of this stuff goes. We know the what's, we just never know the whys or hows.
I love how much the naming in these games can upturn and reveal. Great work as always!
Thank you!
Thanks Goldmask for bringing us another banger. I knew about Rykard's and Ranni's little alliance, but if it is true that Mogh was involved, this makes everyone involved seem worse than before. I wonder if Ranni also had something to do with Radhan and Malenia fighting in Caelid.
I’ve seen a few lore videos say the Black Knives and Ranni had similar goals, but somehow missed that Ranni admits she orchestrated the Night of Black Knives. Although the names of the Black Knives is a surprise to me.
Guessing Mogh was less an equal party and the others were just using him knowing he’s a creeper.
An interesting theory. I actually think you have it incorrect, but interesting nonetheless. The true alliance was between Ranni and Marika, as the Black Knives served Marika herself.
Marika had come to loathe the Golden Order (there are reasons for this, but they aren't essential here) and particularly Radagon, who had twisted her ideals into Fundamentalism. She anoints Miquella as her heir, supporting him in his creation of the Haligtree, precisely because Miquella rejects Fundamentalism and instead turns to the path of unalloyed gold. She allies with Ranni because Radagon's daughter has become disillusioned with the Two Fingers and seeks to break away from their control. Ranni creates the black knives, which Marika's retainers are then armed with and resulting in the death of Godwyn's soul and Ranni's body. This then gives Marika cover (in the name of grief) to shatter the Elden Ring and kick off the Shattering (the colossal war between her brood for the right to brandish the Ring and succeed her). Melina shares with the player a story in Marika's own words at the Site of Grace outside Leyndell near the battlefield in which Marika calls on her children to put themselves to the test and prove their worth, or be left with nothing in the failing. She was definitely involved.
Miquella is her preferred heir because he represents what Marika stood for more closely than his father. His Haligtree is an attempt to recreate the Erdtree without the influence of an Outer God tainting the process. However, because it is not grafted to the roots of the Great Tree, as the Erdtree was, it requires Miquella's own divine blood to keep it alive and growing until it can absorb the Great Tree's root system. Meanwhile, Melina is tasked with burning the Erdtree, by her mother Marika, so that the Haligtree may grow unopposed.
Mogh kidnapping Miquella shoots the whole plan in the foot and leaves the Lands Between trapped in an age of perpetual war. But Marika is no fool, and she considered that Miquella might fail despite her favor. Hence leaving the Tarnished in place, called back in order to offer a different path forward. But because you weren't one of her direct pawns/allies you aren't in on the plan. Which means you can reject it outright (and join the Frenzied Flame), or botch the job by restoring the Elden Ring and ruling from a broken throne still tethered to the Golden Order. Or you can choose the one path left open, which is to help Ranni ascend the throne, become a god and begin the Age of Stars. It isn't as ideal, from Marika's perspective, as Miquella. But it still achieves her primary objective. A new age free from the curse of gold.
“It does a lot of damage” killed me bruh😂
Very interesting theory! Though the one thing that confuses me is why Ranni would have Torrent then, and was requested to give the Tarnished Spirit Ashes from Torrent's former master, who we can assume is Miquella from the DLC poster. Torrent is much smarter than any horse, and would have an inkling that Ranni was involved with Miquella's kidnapping, since Miquella seems to be somewhat conscious or in a dream realm.
But then again, Melina is the one who gives us Torrent, not Ranni.
But also a very good catch showing the possible connection between Rykard and Mohg, which could explain how he was able to find Miquella and the Haligtree in the first place. We also find tortured Albinaurics in Volcano Manor, and only an Albinauric could have known about the location of the Haligtree in the first place. And if the Black Knives were able to sneak into the Royal Capital, they could also have been able to free Mohg from the Sewers.
I thought Ranni's goal was to keep the Elden Ring away from the Lands Between rather than just have it shattered, based on the Japanese dialogue, rather than just keep it shattered. Otherwise why would she help a Tarnished like us in the first place, whose goal is to mend the Elden Ring?
Personally, I see Ranni capturing Alecto as a response to the Black Knives hunting her down due to her betrayal. I think that the Black Knives were duped due to Ranni causing only half of the Cursemark to appear since she killed her own body. This could help explain why the Black Knives would then be trying to assassinate Iji and Blaidd later on, as it would be odd for them to be suddenly ordered by the Two Fingers who they oppose as descendants of the Nox.
Still, awesome video, and love the connections to Greco-Roman myth! Hope the DLC sheds more light on this conspiracy!
Thank you for watching (and for leaving such a detailed comment!) That's a good point about Torrent, though personally I still think Renna was Torrent's former master, since she was heavily associated with spirit calling and it's hinted at that Torrent came from the north, since he likes the frozen berries. (I go into more detail about that in my videos on snails as well as the Gloam-Eyed Queen.)
Torrent's former master line could also be a subtle fourth wall break, since on NG+ and beyond, the player was technically Torrent's former master on the previous NG cycle. Though after that DLC image, Miquella also makes a lot of sense! I hope we can get a better idea once the Shadow of the Erdtree drops.
Yeah, the sheer number of Albinaurics at both the Volcano Manor and at Mohg's is another connection between Rykard and Mohg. We also know that the Cuckoos think the Albinaurics have defiled blood, and since Rykard was Rennala's son, his exposure to the Academy could explain how he got ahold of so many Albinaurics in the first place and why he's fine with experimenting on them.
As for Ranni's goals, she talks about her order in both the English and Japanese versions. Though since the Elden Ring is also identified with "Order," it's not hard to see the conflation. To me, the biggest evidence that she wants the ring shattered is the fact that unlike in the Mass Effect 3-style Elden Lord cutscenes, we never see the Elden Ring being mended in the Age of Stars cut scene.
I'll also point that when she first meets us, Ranni asks, "When will the Tarnished tire of obeisance to the Two Fingers?" To me, this implies that she expects the Tarnished will stop simping for the Two Fingers, and, seeking answers, will start simping for her. (And judging by both Steam achievement data and Rule 34, she's not wrong!)
There's a few connections they give for torrent, he might be been rannis, it could have been vykes as well because as the last tarnished too actually almost become lord, it's quite possible that Melina was vykes maiden as well. As both our maiden and vykes maiden are both found dead at our starting chapels. So it's possible Melina killed our maidens to assume their position as we were seen as promising tarnished that may be able to make it all the way and usher in a new age or to fix the current one.
But also that's pretty clearly torrent on the shadows of the erd tree announcement art. So that implies torrents lore must go much deeper than anything we can currently speculate from. I'd imagine they'll answer a lot of questions we have right now, but will open a bunch more in doing so
@@garrulousgoldmaskand yeah to me it's always been my headcannon that Melina got torrent from ranni. Like however many masters he's had and however much he's been around, just the timing in which we get torrent than ranni immediately gives us the spirit calling bell. The timing and context is very similar. I definitely think the night of the black knives was a massive conspiracy, and most like involved Marika, Ranni, Melina, Rykhard and possibly a few others along with the black knives.
And I don't think miquella was privacy to this information and since it seems he's likely torrents original creator, that at some point he gave it to Ranni or Melina or one of their close allies. So there's some betrayal there or perhaps miquella simply does just want Goodwyn to have a true death, but with Miquella being connected to torrents origins, that gives a lot more weight to your implication in this video that Mogh might also be in cahoots with Ranni and them. So that is definitely an interesting connecting that I hope we get more info on
@@garrulousgoldmask I can see the potential ties Torrent might have to Renna, but him having a preference for berries from the North would only make it more likely that he’s related to Miquella since he’s active, or was active, at Castle Sol. Not to mention the entrance to the Haligtree is at the Mountaintops of the Giants.
Also, if Renna was originally Torrent’s owner, why would Ranni say its from “Torrent’s former master”? If she’s pretending to be Torrent’s master Renna, then what she should have said could be “I bequeath this to thee, AS Torrent’s former master”, compared to “from” Torrent’s master.
Not to mention Renna being Torrent’s former master wouldn’t explain why Melina has him with her in the first place. There’s barely circumstantial evidence suggesting a connection between Melina and Ranni, but there is a lot more evidence suggesting that Melina has a connection to Miquella.
Melina has a pinkish colored hair that you can see when you mix red and gold (Radagon and Marika’s hair color), Melina has a butterfly associated with her just like Miquella and Malenia, has the same M letter in her name with the Empyrean twins, was born at the Erdtree like the twins, and is closely associated with the Frenzied Flame like St. Trina, one of Miquella’s alter egos. Furthermore, Melina was born to set the Erdtree aflame, which lends to the theory that Marika always intended for Miquella to replace the Erdtree with the Haligtree.
And also, I wonder if Renna really is the possible name for the Old Crone who trained Ranni. I know the Snow Witch set is looted from Renna’s rise, but that tower is located in a spot on the map called the “Three Sisters”. With Renna sharing a similar name to Rennala, and with the knowledge that there were other Carian Princesses before Ranni (Carian Filigreed Crest), Renna might be an older sister to Ranni or a princess of Carin royalty before Rennala, though the latter is unlikely given how it’s mentioned Rennala founded the Carian house as royalty.
@@garrulousgoldmask Just a bit of contention I wanted to mention: the Black Knife Assassins in the Evergoal in Ordinia are not prisoners, they're guards for Miquella same as the Albanauric Archers that's why the don't attack each other more over given the way that particular Evergoal functions and their invisibility they would have busted out in all of 5 minutes, they're there because they want to be.
Its part of why I think Miquella's mourning of Godwyn was a sham to conceal his involvement of the Night of Black Knives through the Black knife assassins and he had them betray Ranni by having them spare Radahn that night leaving Ranni's fate suspended and her ambitions with it thus eliminating her as a rival while toppling the Golden Order paving the way for his order of unalloyed gold and living up Malenia's title as the most fearsome Empyrean. I explain why I suspect as much in greater detail on a separate post.
the Ranni and Rykard connection makes sense, it fits well with the Mohg theory
Your videos are always packed with so much information; from jokes to stuff that's actually related to the lore you are discussing. And all that in usually under 10 minutes. Kudos man, just subbed!
Thank you so much mate, I really appreciate that!
This is one of the coolest Elden Ring videos. Nicely done on the research! This is part of my new head canon haha
Thank you so much!
LOVE the Men At Work reference. Haven’t heard that since I was a kid when my Dad used to listen to it.
Awesome content as always! Thanks for both the reference and the video!
Thank you!
unrelated, but how likely is it that long, long ago, Mt. Gelmir was a tree?
Well, this is Elden Ring so I suppose anything is possible, though I haven't really heard that theory before. Is it based around the connections between the Crucible and the Erdtree?
I've been saying that for ages! Look at the edges of the rock in the colcano, looks too tree lile not to be deliberate! I always leave messages in the game in places where you can get a good view of it and in my view it is 100% a tree.
To also add onto the theory that Ranni helped Mogh steal Miquella is the fact that Loretta served the Carians and more than likely sent her with Mogh to ensure he was protected.
Interesting. Although based on her armor description Loretta was really keen to find a place for Albinurics to be safe and call home. And Miquella's Halightree offered just that, so it would make sense for Loretta to be loyal to Micky. However there are tons of Albinurics in the consecrated snowfield and Mohgwyn palace so it's hard to say what happened there! They're all second generation though. While the archers in the field riding dire wolves and possibly Loretta are first gen Albinurics who have lost the use of their legs.
I'm always impressed when someone bashes out some top-class ancient literature references!
And I never connected Iji to sealing the Evergaols!! And I never realised Ranni probably shanked herself with the black knife!!!
Thank you so much!
Such a good video!
My alternative take is that Ranni originally only planned for Godwyn to be killed by black knives, but Alecto and some of the other BKAs just really hated the golden order, so when Tiche was killed while they were escaping the capital, Alecto blamed Ranni for it, betrayed Ranni’s plan, and began just hunting demigods, with some of the BKAs following her, while others stayed loyal to Ranni. Eventually Ranni tracked down Alecto and imprisoned her, and the assassins loyal to Alecto now hate Ranni. As for the assassins loyal to Ranni, they’re the ones at Ordina, because Ranni doesn’t really need them anymore, and can send them to guard Miquella/the Haligtree (possibly after Mohg kidnapping, when it became clear the Haligtree needs more protection)
The lore of this game is soo specific it really makes you study the minutia. Like…. Who’s armor was left for you to get? Is there a black knife assassin posing as a normy somewhere?
or maybe it’s the black knife assassin that takes on the form of the baleful shadow blaidd right before the lake of rot, which is a long shot considering the distance and lack of connection. considering the location of the armour it’s probably more likely that the assassin (presuming she still lives) travelled to the haligtree. if we think of this in context to the video, upon realising rannis plan, the assassin may have done this in order to reach miquella/malenia before mohg did. alternatively, the assassin may have simply done this to take refuge in the haligtree which isn’t unlikely considering the number of black knife assassins who appear to be in hiding following their fleeing from the capital after the night of black knives.
This video brings two very interesting theories, but my favorite part has to be how you shone light to the connections between the Black Knives and the Furies (Their origin from the underground, their relationship with the night/nox and their scaly aspect). Not to mention the connections between the two Alectos
I totally agree with you! Velka in DS1 was always Nyx-like (also, part Euronyme from the even older pantheon). She is a pre-Hellenistic era female creatrix who is overshadowed by the later pantheon and subverts their efforts to maintain order. Miyazaki has always been obsessed with the Orphic worldview.
Ooh, I never thought about Velka in that way!
@@garrulousgoldmask Your videos are incredible! I’m so glad I found a fresh perspective. Keep up the great work!
Damn, that's some good analysis, didn't expect this kind of detectiving after the game has been out for quite a while .. good work, you earned a sub ;)
Thank you!
I've been critical of your videos in the past, and admittedly misjudged you and had to apologize. That said this is probably one of the best ER lore videos I've seen. So very well done. I'm glad I was wrong about you and had this opportunity to see what you're capable of. Thank you!
Thank you so much--that's high praise indeed! And no hard feelings!
Great new details, First time i'm hearing these deductions
Radahn probably conspired against miquella too. There is a theory out there that Redmane Castle isn’t his and how it looks eerily similar to castle sol. So malenia went to caelid to claim it back.
@@armandaneshjooI honestly don’t know, perhaps when he heard that miquella wanted to perfect the golden order he intervened believing it was fine to begin with. But that’s just my speculation.
@@armandaneshjoo idk man I’m just speculating
One problem to this theory could be that Marika seemed to know about what was to come when she robbed Godfrey and his warriors of their grace, sent them away to wage war until they die and then revive them, giving back their grace and telling them to return to the lands between to wage war and "brandish the Elden Ring".
I like the speculation that Ranni/Rykard helped Mohg nab Miquella. The fact that both Rykard and Mohg's factions invade Tarnished's worlds may be more than just a neat link; it could be crucial to how Miquella was kidnapped.
If you think about it, it should be basically impossible. There are many fearsome warriors guarding Miquella and the Haligtree, such as Loretta and of course Malenia, so force is impossible. And there's so many soldiers and knights crawling over Elphael that a big horned Omen wouldn't be able to slip in by stealth and then back out too. One headcanon is that Mohg invaded at the Haligtree Roots as a phantom, and waltzed off with Miquella on one arm with none the wiser.
Melania was in caelid when Miquella was kidnapped. And theres a good chance loretta wasnt at the haligtree yet. We also know that both the omen twins can protect themselves to other locations (mohg under the capital, margit) so its likely he just walked in and grabbed him, killing anyone who tries to stop him.
2:35 idk If you noticed but that throne at 2:35 looks VERY similar to the thrones in the eternal cities and selia but may just be a coincidence…
I'm surprised people still fixated on the idea that Ranni orchestrated the whole thing just because she blatantly takes all the blames on her.
Ranni at one point helped imbued Destined Death into the weapons of the Black Knives because it benefited them both: they both need a weapon to slay the Two Fingers - The Fingerslayer Blade - the thing that can only be born of a god / demigod's corpse. Anyone who thinks Ranni had the power to command the Black Knives simply doesn't pay attention to the end of her questline. What do you think the Black Knives show up at her rise for? They're there to claim the Fingerslayer Blade that Ranni stole from them. The Black Knives never meant to do anything for Ranni, nor to give her their Fingerslayer Blade.
The whole grand scheme to cut off any bit of influence the Greater Will and the Two Fingers have on the Lands Between is as follows:
1. Have Godfrey banished to a faraway land until he's no longer influenced by the Grace of the Erdtree, then summon him back to build a new Order, starting a new Age.
2. Have Melina go to the Forge of the Giants to burn the Erdtree. However, she failed the first time because the thorns wouldn't die since Destined Death had been confined.
3. Have Hewg forged a god-slaying weapon because it is known whoever makes it inside the Erdtree will have to face Radagon.
4. Have the Black Knives obtain the Fingerslayer Blade to slay the Two Fingers.
Someone thought of all this because they realized:
1. The Erdtree has been broken for a long long time, it no longer bestows the Blessing Dews.
2. The Two Fingers have been lying about communicating with the Greater Will. The Greater Will already abandoned the Lands Between long ago. The Two Fingers themselves have actually been orchestrating everything in the name of the Greater Will, building themselves a whole religion in which they are hailed as the holy messengers of a supreme god. I'll let you guess which real-life religion inspires the relationship between the Two Fingers and the Greater Will.
3. The Golden Order cannot last forever because it is against one of the rules of nature - flowing water is pure, stagnant water will only accumulate all kinds of filth until it is completely rotten.
With all that said, I'll let you guess who in the whole Elden Ring game is capable of this grand scheme.
I never thoght of the blood portal and black knife assassins in the snow fields as enemy faction encroaching on Miquella, but it really makes sense.
Godwyn is referred to as a Scion of the "Golden Bough" (a book exists with this title that I need to read) and then Scions of the Eternal city are involved in this plot... were they promised they'd get to replace Marika? I was under the impressiom that Nokron and the Nameless city and Nokstella were banished under ground. But at the time of Godwyn's assassination the black knives were living in the capital city. Specifically in the part of it that is now just water. Right underneath this part is the Nameless city which someone on reddit pointed out means it was sunk to the deeproot depths after the shattering. Not sure where I'm going with this! What's Ranni up to? Why is her phantom face the exact model as Melina? I've been trying to figure it out from a Jungian angle as well based on videos by "The Centered Tarnished". Is Melina a part of Marika's consciousness? Or Ranni's? Melina's closed eye is the same eye that Ranni and her phantom face share. Always with the eye symbolism Miyazaki...
There's just no end to the mysteries. Ranni's occult hand position is also interesting. Upper hands form a pyramid while the lower hands are on her lap. Maybe a symbol of the dark moon. While the pyramid pointing down would be a symbol of the full moon (feminine, womb shape, etc.) And Ranni bqsically cast aside her empyrean flesh (aka child bearing abilitt as per The Tarnished Archeologist's vids). So this is a Ranni who rejects her fate and seeks to bring a new order. But at what cost Ranni? Why you gotta turn yoyr bro in to a fish man?
Also Ranni's dark moon to me is possibly the portal to Helphen. This is the dark moon that was meant to "swallow" the sun at castle sol and let Godwyn's soul cross over to the lands between through this portal. However the movement of the moon and stars were arrested due to Radhan (another co conspirator?)
It's really hard for me to decipher Miquella's motives as well. The cut side quest with the sleeping draught was very sus. And St Trina arrow description makes it seem like he gained followers through weird means... Aaaanyway! What were we talking about? Oh elden ring!
hmm, what's that outfit you're wearing when you're talking about Ordina? i like the look of it
It's the altered version of the Alberich Robe! It pairs well with a ton of different sets.
I had always been suspicious of some kind of beef between Ranni and Miquella. We know someone orchestrated an assassination attempt on her, as evidenced by the fake Blaidd mask, which may also explain why Miquella doesn't have his own Shadowbound Beast that we can meet. I think it's also quite interesting that all of Rykard's minions draw their power from red glintstone, which although the lore is sparse, almost certainly has some kind of connection to the Blood Star, which more likely than not has some kind of connection with the Formless Mother, as we can find the Great Stars weapon near the Writheblood Ruins. Not only is there strong evidence of Mohg's activity there, but it is also along the route Leyndell's troops would've had to take towards Mt. Gelmir, and given all the Miquella and Trina lilies, as well as a bow and crossbow said to be crafted by a certain genius of Fundamentalism strewn throughout the battlefield, Miquella was likely involved in the battle.
Not sure where I was going with all that, but I'm really hoping that the DLC specifically delves into the family drama of the Shattering, as I think that is one of the most sparse aspects of the story.
Oh I think there was definitely Beef between Ranni and Miquella. Indeed I think Miquella was really the one pulling the strings of the Black Knife Assassins on the Night of Black Knives.
I mean really given Ranni's goals and needs, why would she just betray allies as useful at the Black Knife Assassins by imprisoning their leader? Especially since you know since she needed the Finger slayer blade the secret relic held in the same Eternal cities where the Black Knife assassins hailed from? To get leverage on the Black Assassins? At what point in game do the Black Knife Assassins seem like they're under Ranni's thumb, they don't give her the relic she needs and they attack her crew once she obtains it. In game Ranni and Black Knife Assassins seem to just be in open conflict so no leverage there at all. To conceal her involvement in the Knight Black Knives for starters imprisoning Alecto wouldn't do a whole on that front anyway since all the other Black Knife Assassins obviously knew she was in on the Night of Black Knives seeing as they were wielding the knives only she could imbue with a fragment of the rune of death and were in possession of a black knife print Rogier was able to use to determine Ranni's involvement. More over given their Banishment underground, and the destruction of one the Eternal cities, and their Black Moon all at the hands of the Greater Will and the Golden Order pretty sure the Black Knife Assassins would not tell any agents of the Golden Order anything. More over Ranni literally had the perfect alibi and cover because by all outward appearances Ranni was also one of targets of the Black Knife Assassins that night even if they tried to claim Ranni was involved, most no one would believe it.
I have different take on why Ranni imprisoned Alecto, she did not betray the Black Knife Assassins, they betrayed her. How so? Given Ranni's ultimate goals I think it comes down to who they did not kill on the Night of Black Knives and the one person Ranni needed dead more than even Godwyn: her brother Radahn the mightiest Demigod holding back the Stars and with them Ranni's fate. A betrayal that suspended Ranni's fate and her ambitions with it for an entire age. A betrayal that Ranni certainly would return with imprisonment of their leader in relation. And accounts for their open conflict with Ranni.
So why would the The Black Knife Assassins betray Ranni? Because they had secretly been working for Miquella the whole time, only working with Ranni because only she could craft the Black knives necessary to kill Godwyn and bring down the Golden Order to make way for Miquella's order of Unalloyed Gold and they left Radahn alive under Miquella's orders to ensure Ranni the one empyrean who could and would rival Miquella would effectively neutralized with a suspended fate.
Too many people overlook that the Black Knife Assassins in Ordinia are guarding the seal to the Haligtree and are in the service of Miquella. Note how they are not in conflict with the Albanauric Archers in that Evergoal and given how that particular evergoal operates and their invisibility, they would have been able to leave it with impunity easily light the torches unseen so no they are guards of the Evergoal not its prisoners. You even have a spectral Black Knife Assassin just walking around Ordinia (you have to have a sentry torch out to see it) along with the spectral wolves and albanaurics .They also are not the only former Ranni/Carian ally in Miquella's service Loretta also is in the service of Miquella along with the bulk of the Albanaurics and there's another notable retainer of Ranni's who may in fact be in Miquella's pocket as well: Pidia/Seluvis who schemes to make Ranni into a puppet... using an Amber Starlight shard... found at the foot of a hidden statue of Miquella/Malenia also fun fact the Ants the Sword mistresses are riding in Nokstella are bewitched with Miquella's bewitching branches.
If I'm right Miquella helped orchestrate the fall of the golden order while using and neutralizing the only Empyrean in opposition to him after the fact. All without anyone ever realizing it even seemingly Ranni. Most fearsome Empyrean indeed.
@@Terminalsanity I'd agree with all of that, except that Ranni was clued into Miquella's plans to some extent. I don't think the Black Knives intentionally left Radahn alive; they either never managed to get close to him, or he just murdered everyone that they sent after him. Miquella would have reason to kill Radahn as well, as he is attempting to summon the eclipse at Castle Sol, but Radahn holds the stars in stasis. When the assassination plot failed, that is likely when Miquella asked someone more competent, his sister Malenia to take on the task. Plus, it seems that the assassination of Godwyn was meant to result in a true death for him, but Ranni threw a wrench in that plan by half-killing herself.
Interesting theories, as usual!
I've been wondering if Ranni may have set this in motion through a third party - possibly having the Snowy Crone (who could be Renna!?) arrange her and Godwyn's assassinations with the Black Knives. Ranni's original body being at the top of her divine tower with barely a sign of struggle seems like she could've been waiting for her attackers to "surprise" her rather than carving herself up. This also gives her plausible deniability and why the Carians would also be eager to capture the assassins if they were unaware of Renna's parlay with the Black Knives. Ranni could've have also set things in motion against the Crone, using Seluvis to kill her to provide the puppet for Ranni to inhabit. This would've eliminated the primary link to her and the initial Black Knives attack. The Crone/Renna may have even been on board with this as self-sacrifice as way to exact revenge on the Golden Order and Radagon/Marika for the state that Rennala was left in, and the puppet body is a tribute to her sacrifice. This would also throw Seluvis off the scent of the depths of Ranni's machinations. The two demigod killings were the flashpoint that could have bolstered the rebellions of Rykard, Mohg, and the Gloam-eyed Queen with the latter the only one that the Golden Order could remove from the battlefield so to speak. Rykard was too fortified, and Mohg was literally out of sight and out of mind, but the ensuing chaos provided them a "golden" opportunity. I would speculate all this with the ending of a "resurrected" Ranni approaching both Rykard and Mohg afterwards and cementing their alliances. As for Iji and Blaidd, they seem so loyal that they could have been completely aware of the scheme (Iji - hence his mirror helm) or simply believed whatever Ranni told them about the situation without question (Blaidd).
Also, great pick up on Alecto's name origins. As another commenter said, I didn't even put that together with Hades (great game) until your video!
@@armandaneshjoo how is geq sister of marika??
So what does Tiche stand for?
She was the goddess of luck and fortune, often on the city-level, and was sometimes paired with Nemesis, who was another daughter of Nyx/Nox. So Tiche (often spelled Tyche) could be seen as representing the capriciousness of life.
💀 wait did u censor “Knight”? 5:12
What the hell lmao
I like alot of your ideas. I'd point that most of the multiplayer items are all fingers or fingers made from dead bodies. Corse wax, fyi is the result of decomposition when hydrolysis comes into play. Basically wet bodies undergo a different putrefaction and the byproduct is corpse wax.
Human remains are required one way or another.
Another thing to consider is how the battle lines of the Shattering don't seem to be every demigod against one another but each family lineage fighting for supremacy. You got the lineage started by Godfrey and Marika, the lineage started by Radagon with the Carian queen, and the lineage started between Radagon and Marika. There is no evidence anyone within their own lineage fought another. Even the fight between Malenia and Radahn is suspicious as why would Radahn care is Malenia decided to abandon the capitol? Unless he knew what she wanted and making sure she couldn't get it was the point. Morgott is of Godfrey's lineage and considered all but Godrick traitors. He even came to Godrick's aid by trying to stop the tarnished's approach. So the evidence seems to suggest the different lineages were fighting for supremacy rather then a free for all like the stories suggest. Although Mohg being a creepy pervert does seem to strain things a little with his brother. Even so they both seem to rely on each other still so it can be said that when push came to shove siblings would side with each other over their cousins.
It could also be that Black Knives are named after Furies like the Crucible Knights are named after geological periods; note that Alecto's daughter is named Tiche, which sounds like it might be short for Tisiphone.
Tiche is most likely a variant on Tyche, greek goddess of luck, not Tisiphone
People say that Ranni's end is the best, that she's amazing... But i can't agree with it. This video made me fully realize why. 😂
Speaking of Alecto and the black knives, the English lore states “close ties too Marika” and “Scions of the eternal cities” and I believe their part in the night of black knives, is due too Marika betraying her people/roots and becoming the god of the golden order that banished them underground and uprooted their culture.
There are other references to Greek myth also in vers 1.00. For instance there is a reference to a Graverobber Lord by the name of Sciron. Sciron, in the myth, would rob people and then kick them into the sea where a giant turtle would eat them. I always wondered if there were plans for Patches to be revealed as Sciron since he likes to trick and kick people, and since he "turtles" behind his shield.
Edit: in ER he is named Sceiron, which is an alternative spelling.
Oh, great catch! And I like that theory for Patches! Though I'm still surprised he didn't have a cameo in AC 6...
This makes sense of why malania was firghting Radagon as well, if Radahn it was know that Ranni was involved in this then maybe malania thought her brother might might be involved, maybe he was involved (always thought he might have held back the stars because Ranni needed time to prepare before her fate was set in motion again)
Malenia fought Radahn because Radahn held the stars preventing Miquella from achieving his goals about Godwyn and the eclipse.
Now this other part I’m not sure but Maybe before the battle Malenia saw Miquella sacrificing himself to the Haligtree and entering a kind of dream state (Hopefully the DLC explain what happening) and she literally didn’t want her brother gone, overcome by rage she marched to Caelid and gave up eveything just to defeat Radahn so Miquela can fulfill his goals.
@@nnnnnnnnn8888 yeah that makes more sense in a away, but I don't know why Radahn would be holding back the stars in that case unless he just really hates Godwyn/Miquella. Unless he was holding back the stars to protect his family who's fates are bound to them, but it was also fucking up Miquellas ritual so Malania was sent/chose to kill him
Jarren even works for the Carians hosting the Radahn festival and hunting down sellen, and it seems like the festival is more than just a way to get Radahn killed to him he admires Radahn
Alecto is my fav sumon .. the lore is incredible.. black knight are all women .... thks for those precisions....
And people still defend ranni. everything in the game tells you that she is a scheming egocentric person that uses everyone around her to her personal gain.
Those deadly Ballerina XD
Godwyn has been accused of being a “willful traitor” by Morgott.
Godwyn is the Caesar of Elden Ring perhaps.
(Also, Godwyn-Gwyn, obvious but maybe could be another allusion)
I'm not sure about all the Miquella thing for two main reason. First, Ranni never says anything about being against Miquella. It's a prove? Not really, but she have no problem to talk about all the Godwyn thing, so i don't think she would have trouble talking about it. Not even when we discover Mohg and Miquella. Second reason, the thrones.The thrones that we see during Morgott's cutscene are the thrones of the demigods who, plausibly, gathered after the breaking of the Elden Ring and divided the pieces while Morgott was elected King. And we see Miquella's throne between them, so he was stil around after the shatter. Alternatively, it is implied that Mohg took Miquella while Malenia was fighting in Caelid. Otherwise, Malenia would have fought Mohg, and even if they used a trick, Malenia would not have been "waiting for Miquella's return" (DLC pleeease).
About the assassins, Alecto yes, it's so damn obvious as a reference to the fury. But, about Ranni, i don't think she cared to push Marika to madness. From what she tells us, I think Ranni just wanted to not be a tool of the Fingers. Her whole mission isn't about becoming a Goddess, it's just about freeing herself. Even choosing Godwyn I don't think it was out of hatred towards him, but pure and simple opportunity (Kill Rykard or Radahn? Nah. Morgott and Mohg probably nobody knew about them. Miquella and Malenia? They might not have even been born at that time, and even if they were, no one is stupid enough to try to attack Malenia.) All the massive genocide of Demigods (The ones we found inside the walking mausoleum) it was probably all Alecto and assassins' idea. Like, Ranni gave them the knifes: "Yo, go to kill Godwyn in this exact way, then have fun."
And the betrayal. Oh, this will be fun. Ranni is not a good person. She's not a monster, but she's not a pure poor girl, she manipulated, killed, deceived and exploited people for her desire of freedom. Seluvis works under her protection, and we know what kind of person is Seluvis. About the assassins? She probably used them for her own ends as long as they were useful, and as soon as the entire continent was pissed off at them, she abandoned them to a world that wanted them dead. I also don't think they were happy about causing the rise of Those-Who-Live-In-Death and the near-destruction of the world. That's why they try to kill her at the end of her quest. Perhaps also because, despite everything, they wanted the Night Lord to reign , not that the Elden Ring would vanish among the stars.
P.s: About Ordina, The assassins are probably there because Ordina is like Sellia, descendant of the Eternal Cities, and the Assassins are descendants of the Nox. Plus, it's a good place to hide, away from anyone. (Then we all know how the mountain region has a lot of things out of place, so the Assassins-Portal for Elphael relationship might just be due to time and production delays.)
Gideon’s line about Marika’s sorrow being justified always made me wonder if she was aware of Miquella’s plan. I think Ranni was supposed to be her first successor, with Godwyn being his Elden Lord. She then said nope and killed him. A desperate Marika then birthed Miquella and Malenia to be next in line.
That makes total sense! That also might explain why Marika had to abandon her role as Radagon and leave Rennala mourning over the loss of Ranni and her husband. No wonder she was so broken afterwards.
godwyn was alive and well.... after miquella and malenia were birthed..... indirectly according to the sources.... as they say miquella was sad after hearing his brothers death and tried to give him proper death... meaning they had a brotherly relationship before his death... unless miquella could talk to the "soul-less" godwyn.... and made a relationship later lol
A compelling theory, but there are three bits of lore that also point to a different explanation: Marika was possibly behind the murder of Godwyn. The first reason I suspected this was that if you notice, through all her candor Ranni never once actually says she was behind Godwyn’s death. She never says she had Godwyn killed. She talks about forging the black knives “through fearsome rite”, being involved with stealing the shard from the rune of death (more on that later), and slaying her own flesh (as you very clearly point out, she says she did this herself with her own hands), but for some reason, she never says she had Godwyn killed. Why would she admit to everything else but not that?
Now let’s turn to her co-conspirators: the Black Knife Assassins. As you said, Alecto is imprisoned on Ranni’s land. Black Knife Assassins attacked both of Ranni’s closest allies and friends, which results in Iji’s death and Blaidd’s madness. So yes, it is incredibly weird that these assassins seemed to have turned on Ranni or she turned on them (or both), even though they clearly conspired on the night of the dire plot.
Here’s where it gets weirder: The lore on the Black Knife Armor ends with, “The assassins that carried out the deeds of the Night of the Black Knives were all women, and rumored to be Numen who had close ties with Marika herself.” Everybody focuses on the Numen part, their likely history as part of the Nox, but nobody focuses on “had close ties with Marika herself.” The connection also makes sense since we know that Marika herself was descended from Numen. So why would Marika’s closely tied assassins want to murder Marika’s beloved child? We are given no indication that there was any schism between the BKAs and Marika. In fact when you first arrive to Marika’s bedchamber, sitting outside is a clearly dejected BKA, uselessly guarding the room like a knight without their monarch. And in Ordina, you find the BKAs zealously guarding the only way to get into the Haligtree. We know from other lore that Marika actually supported the Haligtree, so she may have sent her best people to lurk near the flames and kill anyone who tried to get in there without permission. I think that’s the real reason why the BKAs are there.
Lore piece #2: The Remembrance of the Black Blade. At the end of that lore, it says, “Maliketh was a shadowbound beast given to his Empyrean. Marika's sole need of her shadow was a vessel to lock away Destined Death. Even then, she betrayed him.”
So Marika betrayed Maliketh, and it had to do with him locking away Destined Death. While there’s nothing I’ve found anywhere that explains exactly what that was, it seems entirely possible that Marika, without Maliketh knowing (because keep in mind, this lore does not say Maliketh knew he was betrayed) was the one who lent her Numen assassins to Ranni in order to steal a shard from the rune of death. I’m open to there being other possibilities for what this destined death betrayal was, but this really seems like the only possibility given what we know.
The third piece of lore is the dialogue of the Finger Reader Crone in the Deeproot Depths:
"Ohh... Oh, Lord Godwyn...
Such cruelty, such humiliation... My poor, sweet lordling should have died a true death.
As the first of the demigods to die.
As a martyr to Destined Death.
But why must it yet bring such disgrace?
A scion of the golden bough, sentenced to live in Death...
How could such a thing come to be..."
Note that she, the Finger Reader Crone the furthest down in the depths of the world, in the place where Godwyn was buried, doesn’t lament Godwyn’s death. She says he “should have died a true death… as a martyr to Destined Death.” He SHOULD have died a martyr, in a full death. She’s lamenting that Ranni ruined Marika’s plan, for Godwyn to be killed by Destined Death, as a “martyr” to Destined Death (the thing Marika has been obsessed with getting rid of; she went to war against the Gloam-Eyed Queen to take the Rune of Death and then had it sealed away, she clearly has it out for that thing).
I think you take all three of these put together and it implies that Marika was behind the Night of the Black Knives. They were her assassins, we know she “betrayed Maliketh” somehow, and we know at least one Finger Reader believes that Godwyn was “supposed to die a full death” as a martyr. And we know that Ranni admits to every part of the Night of the Black Knives EXCEPT having Godwyn killed.
That's a pretty compelling argument that's given me a lot to think about!
8:24. What do you mean Iji can seal Evergaol? I never heard that
Oh if you do Blaidd's questline, at one point Blaidd gets locked up by Iji in the Evergaol where you fought the Bloodhound Knight Darriwil.
Don’t forget though that Ranni calls Miquella her ally
Rykard could acted alone in the conspiracy with Mohg.
I am interested in the theory that Marika orchestrated the Night of the Black Knives, she would also fit more as a Hera-figure. (+Juno often being depicted wielding a spear, similar to the guardian statues of Leyndell)
The connections you make are interesting, but not all are convincing. Comparing Ranni to Juno?! Princess Ranni? Plotting,hiding Ranni? Trickster? Witch hidden from common eye?
But alas,though the theory holds, I have other reasons to be unconvinced.
"Ohh...
Oh, Lord Godwyn...
Such cruelty, such humiliation...
My poor, sweet lordling should have died a true death.
As the first of the demigods to die.
As a martyr to Destined Death.
But why must it yet bring such disgrace?
A scion of the golden bough, sentenced to live in Death..."
"The assassins that carried out the deeds of the Night of the Black Knives were all women, and rumored to be Numen who had close ties with Marika herself."
"Marika's sole need of her shadow was a vessel to lock away Destined Death. Even then, she betrayed him."
I want you take a look at two things;
Look at the Rune Of Death.
Now, look at the Cursemark Of Death.
Now, tell me why people treat them as if they are the same; as if they must be expected to have the same effects.
Tthe Cursemark Of Death, when reformed, has another name;
The Mending Rune Of The Death-Prince; a Mending Rune that will create an Order of Death restored.....
But where Life In Death is also part of Order.
Now,ask yourself; why create such a convoluted Rune?
Simple; to permanently cheat Death.
Alecto served the true God-Queen; her and her fellows. Such is only natural; unlike Juno, Ranni has no leverage downstairs to use to command them, unless attacking her followers( us) is the Nox's idea of hospitality. To this day, they hunt down Ranni, whilst their leader is imprisoned. For what? Wasn't their operation successful? Didn't Godwyn croak?
" My sweet lordling should've died a true death
As the first of the demigods to die,
As a martyr to Destined Death."
What would've happened if the full Cursemark had found it's way trhough Godwyn's flesh?
He would die a full death....
And then, achieve full Life In Death.
Complete ressurection. Immunization. Perfection.
" Oh great sun; frigid sun of Sol! Surrender yourself to the Eclipse! Grant life to the soulless bones!"
What does the Eclipse remind you of?
But alas; perhaps the Queen's sorrow was justifed.
everything is fine but i believe reviving godwyn wouldn't bother ranni in anyways as ranni herself says the path taken from cursemark is path of darkness and both godwn and ranni are treading on path of darkness both have common enemy (goden order, light, haligtree) we can even see carians with godskins who served DD in past and godwyn is one who harbors the DD in present. All these things makes ranni and prince of death natural allies (it is also interesting to note we can find many BKA near deathroots and servants of deaths)
Good catch with name Alecto though I think there are some problems with your theory:
For starters we know Marika shattered the Elden Ring before Miquella was kidnapped because she gave all of her Demigod children Great Runes after she shattered the Elden ring including Miquella.
Also The Black Knife Assassins are not imprisoned in the Evergoal in Ordinia they are guarding the seal to the Haligtree along with the Albanauric archers for Miquella as they will not attack each other also given the way that particular Evergoal functions and the abilities of the Black Knife Assassins they would be imprisoned within it for all 5 minutes before effortless breaking the seal. No those Black Knife Assassins in Ordinia are serving Miquella just like the Albanauric archers, and Ex-Carian Knight Loretta.
Also Miquella wasn't trying to revive Godwyn at Castle Sol he was trying to revive the souless demigod in the nearby walking mausoleum because they apparent were comerades with Miquella.
Also you kind of glazed over why Ranni would betray useful allies like Black Knife Assassins especially since she still needed the Finger slayer blade from the Eternal city from which they hailed, without too much thought. Alecto clearly did not give Ranni any leverage over Black Knife Assassins as they attack her crew the moment she frees her fate, nor would capturing Alecto alone conceal Ranni's involvement as all the Black Knife Assassins were aware of her involvement as the carry the Black Knives she crafted and the Black Knife print which we know from Rogier's quest-line can be traced back to her. Also its highly unlikely the Black Knife Assassins under any circumstances would reveal anything to anyone related the existing Golden order as being Numens form the Eternal cites having been banished underground by the Greater will and the Golden Order and thus actively hated the Golden Order and Marika which was almost certainly why the Black Knife Assassins joined the conspiracy in the 1st place. Moreover outwardly Ranni appeared to another victim and target of assassination for the Night of Black Knives and its highly unlikely they would be believed Ranni in essence already had the perfect alibi and cover.
I have different take on why Ranni imprisoned Alecto, she did not betray the Black Knife Assassins, they betrayed her. How so? Given Ranni's ultimate goals I think it comes down to who they did not kill on the Night of Black Knives and the one person Ranni needed dead more than even Godwyn: her brother Radahn the mightiest Demigod holding back the Stars and with them Ranni's fate. A betrayal that suspended Ranni's fate and her ambitions with it for an entire age. A betrayal that Ranni certainly would return with imprisonment.
Why would the Black Knife Assassins betray Ranni like that? I have 2 theories:
1. (I think this is the less likely of the 2) the Black Knife Assassins refused to kill Radahn because his holding back of the Star saved Sellia which was secretly an above ground outpost for the Eternal cities and where the night magics that were used in the creation of the Black Knife Assassin's concealing armor was created.
2. The Black Knife Assassins betrayed Ranni because they had secretly been working for Miquella the whole time, only working with Ranni because only she could craft the Black knives necessary to kill Godwyn and bring down the Golden Order to make way for Miquella's order of Unalloyed Gold and they left Radahn alive under Miquella's orders to ensure Ranni the one empyrean who could and would rival Miquella would effectively neutralized with a suspended fate.
Too many people overlook that the Black Knife Assassins in Ordinia are guarding the seal to the Haligtree and are in the service of Miquella. More over they are not the only former Ranni ally in Miquella's service Loretta also is in the service of Miquella along with the bulk of the Albanaurics and there's another notable retainer of Ranni's who may in fact be in Miquella's pocket as well: Pidia/Seluvis who schemes to make Ranni into a puppet... using an Amber Starlight shard... found at the foot of a hidden statue of Miquella/Malenia also fun fact the Ants the Sword mistresses are riding in Nokstella are bewitched with Miquella's bewitching branches.
Yeah I think Miquella is cast in the mold of Griffith and his public morning of Godwyn was nothing but a sham to hide his involvement of the Night of Black /knives I'm not even sure sure he was in fact kidnapped by Mogh and is in fact using him because his plan with the Haligtree fell through and failed.
@@armandaneshjoo Thanks the way I look at its a fromsoft game I kind work off the assumption none of the major players are entirely on the up and up or in the right.
Also when you break it down there's just a lot of evidence Miquella was in on the Night of Black Knives through the Black Knife Assassins Ordinia where you literally find Black Knife Assassin armor set, has the same architecture as Sellia aka the secret above ground base of the Eternal Cites, where the Black Knife Assassins came from I mean come on you even have a ghost of a Black Knife assassin just strolling around in Ordinia (you have to have a sentry torch out to see it😆) along ghosts of wolves and Albanaurics and the name of the is Ordinia liturgical town, IE: Ordained town of whorship and who are they whorshipping there? Miquella. The environmental storytelling is practically slapping you face but so many people just miss it.
Bro woke up and decided to start yapping the mausoleum outside of castle sol has nothing to do with castle itself no one in fort is serving the cradling mausoleum instead they are serving the passed spirit of master of commander niall stop misleading people if you dont understand basics only person which would miquella wanted to give life is godwyn as he is one corrupting lands and he is one close to miquella
@@armandaneshjoo
1. Ordinia is the secret entrance to Miquella's Haligtree and in the evergoal there the torches you light to unseal the teleporter to the Haligtree are literally Statues of Miquella, not exactly how you can say it has nothing to do will Miquella it has everything to do with Miquella. Remember the Night of Black Knives and the shattering all happened thousands of years before the events of the game so all of that fits just fine most of what's in the Consecrated Snowfield is tied to Miquella it literally can be only reached by using the Secret Haligtree Medallion given to the Albanaurics specifically by Miquella so they could reach the Haligtree we know this from Latenna's questline.
2. There was nothing to inherit without the Night of Black Knives. Marika is called the Eternal for a reason and had literally removed the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring so no one in the Lands between died under the Golden Order until the Night of Black Knives. Miquella was also number 2 behind Godwyn Marika's eldest and favorite child. Furthermore we know that Miquella had become disillusioned with the Golden Order as it could not cure himself or Malenia from their afflictions. We also know that Miquella knew his Radagon was fundamentalist and never allow a rival order like Unalloyed gold to exist if Radagon could help it seriously we have to burn down the Erdtree and defeat him in combat to establish a new order. For Miquella's Order of Unalloyed Gold to rise the Golden Order would 1st have to fall.
The way I see it there were multiple parties with separate and conflicting agendas behind their Participation in the Night of Black Knives:
Ranni wanted to free herself from the influence of her 2 fingers and the Greater Will and well as her own fate so she could take the Elden Ring away from the Lands between and let its denizens figure things for themselves for good or ill without being made to submit the the influence of a God like herself no matter the cost or consequences.
Rykard wanted to rebel against the Erdtree and then consume all even the very Gods.
Miquella wanted established his order of Unalloyed Gold to cure himself and Malenia of their afflictions wanted to craft a more perfected Golden order of Unalloyed Gold that had a place for all those rejected and demonized by the Golden Order like the Misbegotten, the Albanurics, and the likely creators of the Albanurics the Numens/Nox that the Golden order, Greater will, and Marika had banished to the Underground Eternal cities and subsequently astel who wiped out one their cities taking away its sky (likely the nameless city) and destroying their Black Moon. Much like Ranni Miquella would seek to establish his order no matter the cost or consequences.
The Black Knife Assassins regardless of whether or not they served Miquella (and I'm pretty sure they did) definitely wanted revenge on Marika for their aforementioned banishment and destruction of one of their cites and their Black Moon at the hands of Golden order, Greater will, and Marika, and to bring down Marika and her order then replace her with their artificially created Lord of Night but since they never seemed to be able to create one successfully (Isuspect as a consequence of the destruction of their Black Moon) I think they settled for Miquella when he made a secret pitch to them probably in his St Trina guise.
@@armandaneshjoo Thanks for the compliment. Its especially rare to get one from someone who disagrees with with aspects of my theories. Rather glad for that glad its unusual to find someone who can just politely disagree but acknowledges that I do try to explain where I'm coming from at length and why.
You have me something at a loss with the inside production considerations since I'm not as familiar with them as I am with the in game content. But the final in game Timeline would indicate that Black Knife assassins equipped such as they are couldn't have been in the town that became Ordinia until just before the Night of Black Knives as they wouldn't have those Knives until Ranni did her rite to create them and they appear to have been working with the Albanarics in service to Miquella for long enough for one to become a specter walking the place. If Miquella wasn't in on the Night of Black Knives and was legitimately fond of Godwyn it would be very strange for them to be taken into his service immediately after they killed his beloved brother also would be kind of weird for the Black Knife assassins to just work with Miquella especially if Marika was game for his plan because they definitely should not be cool with Marika at the time of the game as far I can gather from the implications of them originating from the Eternal cities.
You know considering what was done with Mogh and Miquella was very late game ( I know that much about the production of the game) if there's anything to my suspicions about Miquella I 'm willing to bet the Devs at Fromsoft said "Screw it, just go to the Berserk well again and started modelling Miquella after Griffith in the 11th hour.
I guess we'll see when the DLC drops. Until I'll just keep toiling around with the fragments of evidence we have.
@@armandaneshjoo
1. Mean I know in theory the Building in Ordinia could have been build since whenever the Numens arrived but on the same token it could have been abandoned and reoccupied at any point.
2. I meant the Knives they are carrying in ordinia are specifically spiked meaning they had been imbued with with a fragment of Destined death by Ranni. Meaning those particular Black Assassins could have only gone into the Evergoal/become a specter just before or sometime after the night of Black Knives.
3. I know the seals in the town and the Evergoal are the result of a spell but I assumed the Specters/spirits there were just that specters/spirits of the same sort you see all over the mountain tops of the Giants since they're colored the same way also you don't see a single wolf in the Evergoal when go in like you do with the Black Knife Assassins and the Albanurics (Thank heavens for that I don't to image that evergoal with mobile Albanauric archers around).
4. Can't argue with the possibility of Miquella using mind control. Though that could work under my theory about Miquella commanding the Black Knife Assassins on the Night of Black knives too and how he got them to betray Ranni. I suppose the reason I suspected collaboration there vs mind control was that the Nox use the same sort of bewitchment on the Ants the ride Nokstella meaning either they developed a similar so of magic as the bewitchng branches on their own out they obtained them from Miquella.
5. Fair enough, also I suppose is Miquella was using mind control that wouldn't even matter.
6. Well let's face Fromsoft takes a lot of inspiration from Berserk and I wouldn't be too surprised if they dipped into that well again to come up with fast ideas in a crunch.
Cool stuff I always did wonder about Placidusax's fled god.
Who do the Black Knives serve....
Justice for Godwyn! I had a theory that Godwyn was involved in his own death because he wanted a mommy gf.
Morgott did call him a willful traitor.
I suspect that Miquella could also be an active participant of this plan, but it didn't well for him.
After all, his signature move is scoring an impressive *near* win.
He tried to make the Golden Order work and gave up on it eventually. Goldmask proved that it was possible, and it required only intelligence and an honest effort.
He tried to suppress the Rot in Malenia, but she became the Goddess of Rot.
He tried to make a competitor tree. One trunk has fallen already, and the second one is rotten beyond repair.
He tried to give Godwyn a proper death, but it was Fia who succeeded.
He tried to protect racial minorities from the Golden Order, but it seems unnecessary with Goldmask and Nepheli. As Miriel puts it, "all things can be conjoined".
And his final failure to this day: an attempt to be reborn, only to be stolen by Mohg and to let all those minorities down.
And he gets praise anyway, despite all his failures. That's truly the most terrifying of all Demigods.
Cool theory, but I disagree with one point. Mohg wasn’t working with ranni and rykard. The evidence u give is very loose and I believe that mohg caught Miquella after shattering while malenia was off fighting Radhan.
I'm betting in the DLC we're going to discover that Miquella orchestrated the black knives by orchestrating Ranni (using that bewitching branch thing)
Ranni is lowkey evil
Uhhh Miquella’s kidnapping happened after the Shattering not before. That doesn’t make any sense and Mohg being accomplice doesn’t makes even less sense. He been a secret from everyone and I doubt Ranni would know about him. Also giving Mohg an empyrean that could potentially ascend to godhood under the Formless Mother would be a direct issue for Ranni which would make her plan you suggested incredibly stupid. Also you didn’t even explain well why Ranni would need as an ally Mohg.
Secondly, you have misinterpreted the dialogue of Gideon. When talking about Marika, you are most likely correct that him talking about the “the queen’s sorrow” maybe really about Godwyn (That’s also questionable because it pretty clearly Marika has been planning to destroy the ER an the current age of the Lands Between with many character designs to do so). However you went towards something way to nonsensical afterwards. When Gideon talks about Miquella he mentions he was told about what happened to him.
“So. The Haligtree, now but a husk... I HEARD SPECULATION Miquella embedded himself in the Haligtree.”
He’s just acknowledging that the stuff he heard about Marika could possibly be true if the rumors about Miquella were true as well.
“How vexing. That the All-knowing didn't have the full story...
Perhaps the Queen's sorrow was justified...”
It has nothing to do with Marika being sad about Miquella’s kidnapping especially since she wouldn’t be able to due to it happening AFTER THE SHATTERING. Miquella was around for the burial of Godwyn.
This is apophenia to the max lol snap back to reality man. Miquella was kidnapped waaaaaaaaaaaaay after Marika was imprisoned in the arc by the Elden Beast (who is not the Greater will but more like it is the embodiment of the tree itself?). But yeah that part was confusing me, melania only departed after the shattering took place intact everything pointed to how marika was absent most of the time and had rather more interaction through the guise of radagon. She was losing her sanity right after she slaughtered the giants and exiled Godfrey. Melania never left until after the shattering in hopes to get all the rings for Miquella. When she left, Miquella was kidnapped by mogh. Marika was waaaaaaaaaaay gone before that because she attempted what golden mask wanted : a conversation with the greater will, instead she just shattered the entire lands between.
You have to get the established time order right: no demigods started beef until the shattering took place. The only other wars that took place before the shattering all involved their parents: renella, radagon and Godfrey. The wars of the children took place after the shattering. And no one conspired with mogh. Other than Morgott, no one knew of his existence. Mogh doesn’t share with anyone but his own dynasty. As far as getting a wife or infatuating with Miquella, it’s Miquella’s power: the unintended and uncontrollable charm. It explains why Melania is a complete slave to him.
Actually, I have a question regarding Ranni's questline.
We know Ranni used her body, and Godwyn had his soul used as sacrifice. But why do Ranni's two finger have the mark of death in the cave? It's not really mentioned anywhere as to why considering both Ranni's body and Godwin's body are marked.
I believe this is a reach. The character of Alecto has very little parallel to the actual black knife assassins in-game, the Greek history of Alecto does not lead to any definitive in-game conclusion either.
Also I disagree on the timing of the shattering. The shattering occurred way before Mohg stole Miquella. The shattering of the Elden Ring resulted in the war where all the demi gods were able to acquire their own piece of the Elden Ring, that's why the demi gods all transformed into their monstrous forms where they were regular humanoid shape before acquiring their great runes, hinted by their chairs in front of the Erdtree entrance. We know the clash between Melania and Radahn occurred much later in the war, and it was during Melania's absence from the haligtree that allowed Mohg to steal Miquella inside the cocoon.
The timeline should be, Godwyn/Ranni death > Marika shatters Elden Ring > demi gods fights and acquires their own shards of the Elden Ring as great runes > Melania fights Radahn in Caelid while Mohg stole Miquella from the haligtree
How do we know Miquella was stolen during Malenia’s absence? I actually thought the dominant theory was she left the Haligtree to get him back (tracking him to Caelid, directly over Mohg’s palace)
@@CreativeUsernameEh hey that's a great theory. Although Mohg's palace is directly under Caelid, how would Malenia know where it is and how to gain access to it? There's no hole like the crater left by the meteor after defeating Radahn. I thought the dominant theory was that Malenia marched to Caelid to fight Radahn since he was holding the stars in place, which was something that was preventing Miquella from draining the sun
Ranni is just the worst.
If she enters a room with the Dung eater, he isnt the worst piece of Sht in that room anymore😂
That’s a weird way to say Ranni is best girl
@@nickytheanimal2413 shw isnt even a girl. The girl died.
Ranni is nothing more then a traitorious little sexdoll that uses basement dwelling lonely tarnished simps to kill her brother, her dog and plunge the whole World into a chuthulhu nightmare.
She is even to evil for the devil
I absolutely wuv Elden Wing. It’s the gwatest game ever made.
Wanni is my favowit character.
I can’t wait to we pway it all over again in new game pwus.
Congrats on someone finally noticing Alecto. Your theory is...incomplete. But not too unhinged. Also, Goldmask is one of the worst choices out there for an ending.
I'll throw you one tho...that's not Miquella inside of Mohg's egg.
Ur hilarious
I know you did not just call miquella, a young looking BOY, Mohg's waifu. You're weird for that, even if it's a joke.
Mohg literally tried to make Miquella his waifu ya dipshit.