How Speedrunners Broke Melee By Eliminating Luck
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- čas přidán 28. 05. 2024
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Chapters
00:00 - Intro
02:00 - How RNG Works
03:55 - All Stars Speedrun
07:35 - Peach Break The Targets
10:45 - Problems with HRC RNG
12:02 - HRC gets Solved
15:05 - Is this possible in multiplayer - Hry
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BigBrother
@@Akuretaki_Nikolay ?
You need to work on your pronunciations. Bespoke and subsequent are both words you have trouble with. You need to start using a short A sound with those two words.
@@shinji391 "Especially" is another one. Also it's a grammar thing but some words are "more" and some words are "-er" like something is "weirder" not "more weird"; he gets those wrong on occasion. I'm a grammar and annunciation/pronunciation buff so I notice every tiny slip people make and my brain immediately corrects it. I never intend corrections in a mean or unkind way, we all make mistakes that's how you learn.
Love to finally have the history of this all documented somewhere. Wonderful job putting it all together!
Do you know of summoning salt? if not, you’ll LOVE that channel then :) I’m guessing you probably but just in case :)
ah, so i see you’re a man of culture
Practical Tas's videos on break the targets are great
It's amazing. Content like this never ceases to amaze me. I remember being 8-15 and being stuck on some games and wishing there were clear play-throughs and guides. Fast forward to 2022 and we literally have scientific breakdowns of random results in games 20-30 years old.
This is the stuff that keeps me going
After all these years I just noticed that the Turnip faces are Kirby faces
My mind was just blown
First you draw a turnip,
Then you dot the eyes.
Add a great big smile
And presto, it's Kirnip!
@@BagOfMagicFood :D
@@BagOfMagicFood I absolutely love Kirbo. Saving the worlds for The Lord. ❤
I'm so happy these incredible events in Melee are being recognized more.
You make this complicated stuff look so easy to digest and understand. Awesome video!
always feel like changes to speedrun rules as long as they pass with vast majority of support from the people who actually run the game are fine. especially if they make stuff way more playable, cause whilst records are cool and all, this is all supposed to be fun
Yep whatever makes it fun and entertaining.
Exactly. For example link low percentage run is like 18 days normally and using an external tool to confirm angles saves you the 3 day wait to be told you did it wrong
@@thesheq5023 that's using a tool though.
As long as the tool doesn't directly interact with the game, I don't see a problem with it. People have been writing down notes for various things for years and this isn't much different.
Recording notes and Reading RNG values are so completely different you can't compare them
I don't speedrun smash bros games or even play at a high level, but to me it seems like the obvious solution is to consider the rng manip to be a form of set seed and then runs are categorized as seeded or unseeded.
This is amazing. Every time a video drops it's like I'm back in school, half understanding what's going on but fascinated by everything :O.
Also, this thumbnail is amazing
There was somebody who did cheat in a tournament by altering peach RNG numbers with a memory card which loaded a modded version of 20XX. It's a little different from what you describe here, but it is definitely doable.
It's been well over a year and I'm still in awe of the video you did on the stop and swap.
This Category is 100% broken
Savestate: hold my beer new strat found intantaniously
Great documentary! I learned a lot about a subject I already knew very well!
The way you featured the sponor of this video got me to order - awesome job!
Great video. Judge and savestate really put in work.
Wouldn't using the melee program to predict the rng be making your speedrun a TAS? As you are using an outside tool to assist in your speedrun.
Bit of a complicated answer but essentially a TAS is a run where there aren't any human inputs, it's all inputs being fed to a game by a piece of software.
As I said in the video using external tools to help in human performed speedruns is relatively new; in this case it's not doing any inputs for the players but there is an argument to be made that it's not in the spirit of competition as it's a quasi outside influence.
The melee community have decided to allow it, as have the Wind Waker with their tool that solves sploosh kaboom, so it's likely that for solving a single instance of RNG these tools are here for the long haul.
If you want to see a fully solved game, go check out my Hades video, as they found a way to manip RNG for an entire run.
@@Abyssoft that makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.
You could argue these are not TASes in the traditional sense because the tool is not being used during the speedrun itself, only in preparation before the speedrun begins. Ultimately the leaderboards are tracking a player's ability to play through the level, without restricting how they practice or prepare ahead of time.
What Scott said, you can technically do all this work by hand too, but it's faster for a computer.
Is referencing notes or asking chat about to remind you about something that happened earlier in a run "Tool Assisted"?
No wrong answers, and it often depends on how each speedrun game community structures their rules and definitions. Basically, if everyone in that community thinks something should be allowed or banned, so be it!
Their argument obviously isn't about what's performing the inputs. It's about the fact that gaining knowledge about the game's engine by peaking at code is literally tool assisted. I didn't finish the video yet, but are you saying you can decipher how to manipulate the RNG purely by hand and without any tools to visualize how the memory changes?
Neat analysis video! Looking forward to another RPG World Record analysis! Thanks for uploading!
Thumbnail is pretty excellent abyssoft
5:40 If that number had a checksum, I predict it would be NINE. :-)
Yay more melee videos!
My boy Judge, the legend.
Judge9 is such a great tag for someone who revolutionized rng manipulation.
I believe this rng manipulated runs should always have their own "category" so that cool any% runs won't be replaced for a souless RNG manipulated boring Speedrun where you watch a guy pressing specific keys for 2 minutes so he gets the perfect run
Great summary and explanations
I personally think that the use of external tools should not be allowed in speed running, as said tools give information to the player that was not intended to be accessible. Speedruns should only use the console, game, controller, and TV. Nothing else. If a casual player can't see the current RNG value, neither should a speed runner. While I don't think RNG manips should be banned, runners should only be allowed to have access to the information that a regular player on a regular console has.
So it's a TAS.
The only thing it changes is not needing to do the same monotonous task over and over again just to wait for you to get lucky
5:17
SRM,
Stop Randomness, Mario
alright tomato skip got a chuckle out of me
I think this rng manipulation is totally fine. You could do the same thing with a piece of paper that has all the rng values and just lookup your specific rng to find how to get to the desired seed. It’s not a tool that injects a seed into the game.
I love Melee more than life itself. Great video!
Lol
Genuinely curious, what made you decide to use the 20xx training build for so much of the footage in this video? It overhauls how AI works so i found it kind of curious- could be a mistake, but could be deliberate. I'd love to know! If it has to do with having a setup with everything unlocked, there are other ways to go about that while maintaining vanilla behavior and Speedrun eligibility (not that you are doing runs yourself but for the sake of gathering footage for comparison it might be easier/more accurate).
No RNG stands for Random Number Gesus.
RNG determining random characters on the character select screen explains why when 2 people both pick random on slippi rollback, the result will always be a ditto. now I get it
Looking forward to this. I love the smash games.
I hope somebody's epitaph says "He spent his entire youth and middle age discovering how to draw both a beam sword, and a specific turnip from Princess Peach's busum" XD
my thoughts on external tools is that as long as the player manually enter the input variables required for the program to function then it is fine. if a program can automatically input its own set of input variables then it isnt OK. my line of reasoning is that one requires the player to engage in the game being speedrunned to keep track of the input variables while the other can do it in the background without the player engaging in the came to keep track of anything. obviously there is a sort of theoretical critical mass of what a runner would have to keep track of so it isnt a perfect line of reasoning. though ultimately it is down for the community and its moderators to decide
There is nothing i love more than shitty luck based things fucking up speedruns then getting completey taken out of the equation
I'll add that knowing how to manipulate what trophies you will get from the trophy machine has had some RNG manipulation as well. Although I don't know all of the info on that one sadly but it's based on system clock for some things on top of everything else RNG related. Just for some fun context and facts here.
I like how you substituted "groundbreaking" with "game breaking"
You asked: what they're using is a *tool* outside of the game to *assist* them in a *speedrun*. It's a tool assisted speedrun. If it has its own category it's fine and good. Or I guess if the whole community is doing it like I believe they did in Minecraft, then it's not cheating, but it is, by definition, a tool assisted speedrun.
Your hands are tools too though, and so is your tv 🤔
@@wolfetteplays8894 and are traditionally used to play video games. Also not tools. Hands are a body part, television is an instrument.
Dang bro that tomato skip was nuts
RNG? No, you see anon, it's pure skill.
I haven’t started the video yet but as someone who is fairly active in the pokemon RNG manipulation community I have asked the question if it’s possible in melee. Hopefully this video is going the direction I think it is.
As a wise man once said, “Melee is sick”
This is one of the more soft uses of rng manipulation. It just makes it so everyone can start trying attempts right away instead of resetting for it for hours.
You look at a lot of RPG game rng manipulation and those literally mess with how the fights go. So I would say this one is not an issue at all.
This one really has my brain racked. Half of me agrees with you, but half of it still feels like it's some form of cheating. That half of my brain says "This isn't just an all stars run, its an all starts set seed run." Like i think there's a decent comparison to minecraft speedruns. There's a random seed run where they gotta roll the dice on world generation every time, but then there's also set seed runs. Wouldn't this just be a set seed all star run? But like im not even fully convinced of that argument because a set all star run seed "feels" different than a set minecraft seed, i just cant articulate why.
@@jacobreinitz1334 In a minecraft set seed run, literally millions upon millions upon millions of small chances come together to create a completely unique outcome, in these set seed runs, the only difference is a guaranteed 1% chance at the beginning, which is way different
@@coreblaster6809 So is there a line then where the amount of RNG manipulated become acceptable for a regular run? And if so, where is it in between 1 roll of RNG and 1 million rolls of RNG is it acceptable to manipulate RNG while still being considered a "normal run"?
The more i think about it the more i agree with you though. The core gameplay in a set seed all stars run is a lot more volatile than what occurs in a set seed minecraft run. In smash, there's a lot more room for mixups and skill expression, i imagine with minecraft all the top players do the same exact thing for set seed runs.
But yeah very interesting thought experiment
@@jacobreinitz1334 It all depends on what the speedrun community around the game agrees upon as making it fun to play and fun to watch. If there is enough interest a separate category can always be created.
@@inthefade that's fair. i guess searching for some "objective line" is the wrong approach.
I'm fine with the RNG seed program for 2 reasons.
1. You can't stop/catch people so banning it only hurts people who follow the rules.
2. It just tells you what seed you're on. It doesn't do any part of the run itself for you.
"A huge improvement of almost two seconds"
S tier content dude. Good video editing as well
"Technological advance is an inherently iterative process. One does not simply take sand from the beach and produce a Dataprobe. We use crude tools to fashion better tools, and then our better tools to fashion more precise tools, and so on. Each minor refinement is a step in the process, and all of the steps must be taken."
-Sheng-Ji Yang
if this tool is cheating, then i would imagine practice roms, as well as using save states to practice, and even using a timer outside of the game's own built in timer, would also be considered cheating. because you're basically trying to draw a line with invisible ink.
It sucks that you get so many views but no one subs your actually my favorite CZcamsr
Tournament viable: no
at that part I just imagined 2 tas bots both vibing in their corner trying to manipulate rng in their favour and their opponents disadvantage, playing 5d chess.
Dragon Quest (Warrior) has a category split for using RNG manipulation, as do several other games
Can’t believe the tomato skip keeps getting optimised bro
Beautiful video breakdown
To me, using a tool to inform the runner of what's going on with normally unviewable variables fits the idea of a tool assisted speedrun.
It’s not considered tool assisted because the program used is just giving the runner information about the game state without affecting the actual run attempt. It’s just streamlining the resets for a perfect seed. The tool is also not affecting the game code in any way, as the runners are manually entering the information themselves.
@@DuckDoolittle In the end, the tool is giving assistance to the player, because it is giving info that is not suppose to be seen. I can take it as valid if you can memorise the data without any external tool or modification to the game. Like in mistery dungeon that they manipulate the paths and pokemon's behavior, but it is still another branch with/without QS. It is not like in sunshine either where they choose to skip the intro, but there is a part that need input, if I remember correctly.
@@ZATCHBELL2007 The fact that the tool is giving the player assistance is irrelevant here, because A: the game and all connected hardware are unmodified, ie the tool is not reading or affecting game data directly, and B: the tool is not being used by the player once the run has started, only during setup. It’s no different than using a metronome to hit a startup frame during resets of Pokémon speedruns.
@@DuckDoolittle I do not know that they need a metronome, but still, it is the player that knows when to start, and not the metronome that tells the player the info, and the tool is giving directly unobtainable info. In mario kart they make a move that boost speed that is not intended by nintendo with worn out controllers. You can say that it is not a modified hardware, but gives unfair advantage to the player (even if all of them can worn out their controllers), thats why in the end they created separate records, or in the run of super mario bros, the speed runner waits few seconds prior the beggining to access the seed he wants, but he doesn't inpunt any info or recieve info with external tools, just his memory and experience, for me that is a valid manipulation. In the end we will have diferent ways to percieve the word "assistance", and what can affect the run which can be a set up, in mid of the run like the quick saves, or even the runs that trigger the end like super mario world.
@@ZATCHBELL2007 “It is the tool that tells the player when to start” This highlights my point of the run hasn’t started yet, so this would all fall under preparation for the run, not part of the speedrun itself. Therefore, the speedrun cannot be considered tool assisted, because no tools were used durning the run.
“The tool is giving directly unobtainable info” This is demonstrable false, as the tool is not connected to the game, and it is not pulling values out of the data. The tool is basically a calculator, it is helping the players determine where in the RNG they are so they can correctly start the run at precisely the right moment.
Once the run starts, there is nothing assisting the player externally, it is all their own inputs and skill. This is therefore, by definition, not a tool assisted speedrun, where the tools in question change how the inputs are done ie with frame by frame, rewinding, and precise controller inputs using a program.
I don't see anything wrong with this particular use of seed manipulation - of course, as an FF8 speedrunner I use a similar sort of program to determine the SeeD ID for that particular run, which cuts several minutes out of the run as we don't need to go to the Tomb, so maybe I'm biased. XD
What's the details on the FF8 run 👀
@@Abyssoft Well, in order to determine the ID, you take various factors like the first random fights you encounter (not just enemy composition but even how the camera moves at the end) and how many electric poles you see while on the train to Timber. It's been awhile since I practiced because I'm in graduate school, so my memory is a bit scuffed, but there's a lot of factors that go into that. It's probably the only "major" skip in the game due to the nature of JRPGs in that era (and it's not even major because the only decent thing you get there aside from the code is the Brothers summon), and everything else is more or less basic routing.
Well, I say basic, but there's a lot of variation even there because you need to unlock Ice-MAG RF and, for some routes, Card Mod, in order to save the most time in battles... Despite the length, I highly recommend watching the GDQ run from a couple of years ago, because the guys running it are absolute legends and know as much about the game's mechanics as I do about the lore.
You mean im just now learning thag sheiks needle height not only varies, but is random 🤔🤔🤔
using a program outside of the program to manipulate rng has always seemed fine to me, but I have never seen it being used for a speedrun outside of the run itself, that to me seems like it should be part of the speedrun, but also not cause theoretically you could just get the perfect seed by luck, this just removes the luck in that way it seems fine.
Nah I think if you can manipulate RNG through skill that's ok.
Using a tool removes skill.
Same reason NASCAR has gotten significantly less entertaining.
RNG is IRL any% by that I mean you save resets therefore saving lifetime over a setup.
I dislike when runners use external tools to manipulate the RNG. I don't generally watch certain RPG runs because of it. It is literally a tool-assisted run, and even though it's not run by a bot that doesn't make it any less tool-assisted. Just feels like it should be a separate category to me.
But did bespoke post send you a cowboy hat for the authentic taco speedrun experience?
or was that burrito.....
I have never understood: Why do fans still make a big deal about Melee, even after three additional games in the Super Smash Bros. series?
Melee is one of THE games. The entire SSB competitive scene sprung because of this. Nintendo did basically nothing to push it, it was all grass roots.
Unlike basically every fighting game that came before, Melee had a ton of stuff in its single player. Many other franchises took inspiration from this; Soul Calibur being one of the obvious ones.
The sequels since have been good or great, but they don't have that same spark Melee has. Just like how people still play Street Fighter 2 decades later, or Super Mario Bros 3, or Grand Theft Auto 3.
It this point I’d say just use a cheat code to allow pulls of whatever item you want, it’s essentially the same with less convolution
Determining what’s “cheating” will always be a problem in a community primarily based around discovering exploits/glitches/skips/manipulations. Lol it’s pretty unavoidable
I swear I taught Tipo how to 2k Peach waaay back in the day, but there's probably no proof left on GameFAQs or SWF. I was TimeSpaceMage back then.
you probably did! My guess is it would have been over AIM, as I was relatively late to GameFAQs. I was a squeaker for sure LMAO
Sand bag: I would let peach hit me and pay. Wait - ow -ow -OW STOP! Your gonna make me go to the suuuuuuuuuuuuuun
You REALLY used the one Undertale fight with NO rng as an example of subtle rng, huh.
whats the song called that plays during the sponsor segment?
That's a comission from novadrome, not sure if he's uploaded it
I love videos about RNG manipulation!
15:50 That *was* conveniently placed.
Great video!
If you guys want to see a more in-depth video into Peach's BtT's record in particular, I suggest you watch this video: czcams.com/video/FnKWKICUqWU/video.html
It's an hour long, but very informative. I know there's also a vid about how a specific goal for BtS was achieved (having all cumulative times for every character be under either 3 minutes or 5 minutes, I can't remember which), but I actually don't remember it's title or who made it.
😱BtS meal
Is it a 3rd party tool assisting with a speedrun to do something beyond what an average runner is capable of?
If yes, its a TAS
If no, it is a regular speedrun.
There is nothing wrong with a category being TAS using only a specific tool, but it should be separated from runs not using the tool, especially if the Tool makes the strat widely available to all skills of speedrunners. (IE. Reading RNG values is MUCH harder for an average human vs them using a notepad to record down a passcode. Both are tools but one is much more specialized then the other.)
Great video covering this topic, more Smash videos are welcome!
12:04 does anybody know the name of this song? It's so good.
That's a commission by Vividity
Super interesting video and well presented :)
TBC! - Er, i mean... FF7 HYPE! FF7 HYPE! 🤣😂🤣
I wouldn't really call this cheating but methods like this were always kind of lame to me. Though it's definitely nice for cutting down the time spent long term lol. Pokemon Colosseum has a similar type of tool used I think where they look at the pokemon in the random VS battles and then time starting up the game to get the ideal stats/IVs
Looking from the outside in to these rng manipulations, now that we know the game changes based on inputs and/or timing in menus, why don't the speedruns timers start during these menus? Or at the very least most runs that don't differentiate between manipulation or not should start doing so, shouldn't they?
I don't see any issue with seed manipulation because literally all it effects is if you play the run or not. It's like finding a good world seed in Minecraft, literally all it automates is having a playable run. It's not like it automates an actual skill runners need to have in the run itself. ~~unlike the Minecraft speedrun~~
I don’t think the RNG manipulation is cheating exactly but save state beat the world record by 2 seconds. How much time did it take to get the right seed? Probably more than two seconds, right?
taco speed run. TACO
I wonder what would happen if a pro Smash player is fighting against a Smash speedrunner? Hmmm...
The pros win it's an entirely different skill set
All hail RNGesus
I definitely don't think RNG manip at its core is cheating - it's akin to any other technique that might be used in a speedrun, like a zip or wrong warp.
Now, if a third party tool is needed in order to monitor the RNG seed or anything like that - I feel it gets a bit murkier. I don't like the idea of needing a third party tool to perform a speedrun; it feels like a speedrun should be performable just on the original hardware and original game.
That's my take. If you can memorize stuff, develop the physical skills to manip it on your own, that should count.
If you're using tools then... Meh. That just seems cheap to me.
I'm a simple man. I see ann Abyssoft video, i press like.
if you are using tools it should be labeled as a tool assisted speed run
Bro I forgot to subscribe so I didn't get the notification.
That's okay, I'm subbed now
Im here to add a different definition to random to make it an actually useful term so you don’t have to constantly say “appears random” or “usefully random”
Currently we treat “random” as “completely unpredictable”
Unfortunately, nearly everything is deterministic (and i am of the opinion that even quantum mechanics is even though we can’t test it, but that doesn’t matter) so the term is useless to us
Basically i am proposing that random should be used to mean “irrelevant to the current subject”
So, if your rng is based on the characters position, it’s something you interact with all the time and isn’t really something that can be usefully very random. But if its based on time that passes, which is basically impossible to control, it is totally irrelevant to your actual experience as a player. Its useful because it is irrelevant making it “feel” completely random.
It also means “random” things like tacos and dinosaurs, would be random because they are irrelevant.
I just fucking hate the word because it doesnt fucking describe ANYTHING. It has to have a new definition sooner or later, especially because you all use it like this definition anyway, hence the term “rng” being used in programming at all
1:55
Savestate is just the best. Love seeing their name pop up
I BEG YOU TO DO ULTIMATE
I have had my brain wrecked by that bull shit game
I can't NOT click with a thumbnail like that.
9 seconds in and i alr know im boutta have my mind blown
5 minutes in: huh, don't I recognise that name?
5:40 in: ah, right, I _definitely_ recognise that name. savestate is even more awesome than this video makes him out to be
I fucking hate RNG.
If that video from the tacos is in your house, please don't use tortillas like that they are supposed to be heated first.
This is an unsettled argument and I'll forever be on the side of not toasting soft shell tortillas for tacos
if a speedrun is assisted by a tool, it is a tool assisted speedrun. If the community wants to play the TAS-light version of the game, sure why not. But don't call it Any% because that is a lie.
edit: I feel the same way about ninjabrain bot for minecraft speedruns.
This is very cool, but I believe this should be left for TAS. Because you can’t read the information you find by hand, using the tool to make up for a human deficiency is stupid.
My opinion: as long as you are only manipulating with the game code itself from the inside "not adding code that didn't exist with external programs" its fine.