Secret Mormon Temple Ceremony Explained (What’s With the Green Apron?)
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- čas přidán 6. 01. 2024
- The Mormon Temple Endowment is a sacred and central aspect of the religious practices within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). It is a ritual that takes place in LDS temples and is considered a deeply spiritual and symbolic experience for members of the faith. It is often criticized though for the strange cult-like aspects of the ceremony. Most members are completely surprised by this experience when going through the ceremony for the first time.
The endowment ceremony is designed to provide participants with knowledge, blessings, and covenants that are believed to be essential for their spiritual journey. It is seen as a step toward achieving exaltation, which is the highest level of glory and eternal life in the Mormon theology.
The endowment is typically administered to adult members of the LDS Church as they prepare for specific milestones in their lives, such as serving as a full-time missionary, getting married in the temple, or simply seeking a deeper connection with their faith. The ceremony involves a series of instructional and symbolic elements that are intended to teach participants about the purpose of life, the plan of salvation, and the eternal nature of God's love.
The endowment ceremony is highly symbolic, and participants go through a series of ordinances, including the washing and anointing, receiving a temple garment, and participating in various symbolic gestures and rituals. These elements are meant to convey spiritual truths, emphasize the importance of obedience, and instill a sense of sacred responsibility among participants. The ceremony has become somewhat more palatable overtime. Members complaints of the more radical aspects of the ceremony have caused the church to change the ceremony overtime.
It's important to note that the endowment ceremony has undergone changes over the years, with adjustments made to certain aspects to reflect evolving understandings and sensitivities. The LDS Church continues to emphasize the sacred and personal nature of the endowment experience, encouraging members to approach it with reverence and a sincere desire to draw closer to God.
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Learning that your entrance into heaven is dependent on secret handshakes is fucking hilarious.
Right! It sounds like a bunch of 6 year old boys forming a club!😂✌️
It’s stolen from the Free Masons. So, kinda, yeah. A boys’ club that needs to have, ouuuuu, secret handshakes and passwords, I’m sure.
Me going to mormon heaven (not Mormon) because a lady on CZcams called Alyssa showed me the Jesus secret handshake that gets me into the heavenly tree house:
@@barbowens8626I mean... That's basically Mormonism. It's a religion invented by a kid who had a tree house club 🤣
😂😂😂 it really is hilarious!
Good to know that the ultimate supreme being... the one who created the heavens and earth... the one who set trillions of stars in the sky among billions of galaxies... who defined universal physical and chemical constants... and created life itself - relies on a secret handshake to determine who's worthy of paradise.
Well said!
Only married, segregated VIPs with the secret handshake. Segregation in Heaven. Stupid. How the Hell can anyone know? Who can claim to know the mind of God? Cult bullshit to scam the sheep out of money.
Really shows how silly and made-up it all is, hey?
That’s how I know who my homies are. Why wouldn’t the big homie do the same? 😂
Perfectly said!
This is so blatantly Masonic and absolutely sounds like Joseph got pissy that his brother got to go to a cool club and decided to create his OWN cool club 😩😂
Joseph Smith was, in fact, a third degree Mason. If I remember correctly, he was inducted into the lodge and moved quickly through the degrees a short time before he introduced the temple endowment ceremony in Nauvoo.
Look at the images engraved on these Temples it is wicked, I’m blown away people think it’s Christian bc it’s not.
@@shaunalea823I think only Mormons believe Mormonism is Christianity
What would a fake Christian like you know?
@brantclements8888 Unfortunately for you, you don't remember anything that's true. Then again, you don't even go to any church. Hypocrisy works for you.
I was 20 when I did this. 25th June 2008. I remember just a long anxiety attack the whole day because I have memory problems. I was terrified I would be rejected and not allowed to get married the next day because I wouldn't be able to remember everything. I also got severely overheated and dehydrated and felt sick for hours after. It didn't feel like the day before my wedding so much as it felt like I had just taken a massive, life-altering exam that I probably failed. And for my wedding the next day, I looked around the empty room with only the temple workees, my parents, and my husband and just felt sad. Because none of my friends, his family, and most of my family could be there because they weren't worthy. The church truly is a cult that works to isolate their members.
I'm so sorry. Not having your friends at the wedding seems really sad.
I hope you're doing well these days!
That’s the number one thing I point out to people when they tell me LDS isn’t a cult. No other Christian church that I’m aware of exclude your family on your wedding day because they’re not “worthy” what a bunch of BS. Yeah, cuz that’s what Jesus would do. 🙄🙄🙄
@@atherisGAY I am happily divorced and no longer have anything to do with the Church except for being Facebook friends.
Oh, be quiet. You're just a fake.
Really. Keep pretending.
As a Christian, I believe that you should always be able to ask God and any church leaders questions. I tell my students in Bible school that God says the truth is freedom and life! Any religious leader who is afraid to answer hard questions or wants you to keep secrets is suspect and not to be trusted. Thank you for sharing your honest experience.
Absolutely, all the secrecy is honestly really unnerving.
Yes 100%. The churches I go to ask for and welcome questioning. ❤
I was told "When the prophet has spoken, the thinking has been done" many times.
same i also was told not to be a free thinker basically. im happy she is so straightforward and showing how fundamentally wrong mormonism is.
I would never want to be paired with someone or a religion that wasn't allowed to ask about anything. I don't think real men want obedience, that's fucking insane. Paul preaching mutual surrender to shared love seems healthier. I don't have a religious practice but I love asking questions.
When I first did the endowment ceremony, I was overwhelmed for exactly the reasons you stated: I experienced Mormonism as a sort of non-denominational church prior to it. During the ceremony, my dad kept grinning at me, and it really freaked me out. I literally kept asking myself "Am I joining a cult?" over and over for two hours. Took me over 10 years to answer that question.
If you have to ask, the answer is always "yes."
I am amazed you don’t get threatened for making these videos. I am appreciative that you do
She probably does. Mormons go crazy if anyone breathes anything that they consider, "sacred, not secret".
If this were 20 years ago, the Church probably would come after her. Because of the internet, this has all been pretty widely known information for years though.
I bet she is receiving lot of hate now, good that she is not in Utah!
Right now Julia from Analyzing Mormonism is live with this topic. Although her video is about the historical aspect of the mormon temple rituals.
she looks like a polygamist
I attended the temple for 40 consecutive years and never learned anything new but how to nap sitting up straight.
That’s church overall lmao
Worth it! 😂
You learn that in the military because you aren’t allowed to lean on walls(bulkheads)
I don't even sit awake straight. You rock.
lol with that one @Lorenzo12257 choked on my tea, so true 😊
It's like a child's imagination created these rituals, costumes, and storylines. It is wild that grown adults are playing at this like it's real.
Power over people. Makes humans do ugly, scary, and often mean hateful things to others.
I read up a bit about Joseph Smith because a pair of Mormon twins were in my class all through school. It was a lot. It reads like someone who started a movement based entirely on spiritualist flimflam (he was a moneydigger and claimed to see visions via a stone in his hat, and would put his face in his hat to watch these visions.) The giant golden glasses came later. It feels like he wanted to sleep with as many underaged girls as possible, in spite of his wife throwing them out the house, and take over the United States as some form of Napoleonic leader on a white horse. He even called himself the New Mohammed. I'm not surprised he was murdered. What surprises me is he wasn't murdered sooner.
grown adults go into churches across the world and partake in ridiculous ceremonies every single week. that's not a Mormon weirdness that a superstitious nonsense weirdness.
I don't think it's childish at all... it's masonic
Well, no show, no cult.
A secret handshake to get into heaven is so wild
Do people without hands not get into heaven? I have questions.
@@stephengnbthat is an excellent question, I have read a lot of ex-M stories but never one from someone who is disabled and who went through the temple.
Masonic shit
The other option is to defeat god in a thumb war
Yeah, I remember my first time going through the temple. In the celestial room, my dad asked me if I had any questions (since we weren't allowed to talk about it outside the temple). So I asked why women had to wear a veil, and he said "...I don't know." He also recommended that I don't talk a lot, because we're supposed to be quiet in the celestial room.
Thanks Dad, that really cleared it up 👍
this made me spit out my coffee. "well son do you have any questions?" "yes dad why is this thing this way?" "I don't know son. Shut up."
Funny how Joseph Smith became a master mason and a day later came up with the temple ordnance which happens to be a rip of the degrees. Lol
Shhhh. Why do you think he said it was "sacred" and you shouldn't talk to anyone about it?
@@bethanysolimine5428right? Scammers be scamming.
I’m so glad you do this. Before Romney’s candidacy, I thought Mormons were just wholesome people who also believed in some wacko book of their own. There is so much more to it, though.
but I will hire a Morman before most else
Mitt Romney is an evil elitist. Very scary abuse of power in his history and mentality.
@@amberkreitz3388How do you know if someone is Mormon? Do you ask? BC that is illegal.
I recruit from BYU and the best and also you can see garments and it usually says on there application what hobbies are also I make all applicants open social media on their phone so i can see what type people they are.
Also its it really easy . no need to ask it is all there and i do ask where they spend free time 100% say church which allows me to ask further, nothing illegal but Bless your heart for thinking it was @@ivoted-5489
I wouldn’t, if I was working in finance, based what an MBA team mate told us about how he cheated non-Mormons.
We have two temples, both about 2.5 hours away. First time I went to the temple, I went to the smaller one in my state. Next time was the bigger one in the state next to me (Alabama and Georgia for context). I loved the first trip. I had a panic attack in the Atlanta temple and it got to the point my bishop was seriously concerned about me as I am normally really bubbly and completely shut down afterwards. Needless to say, when I informed him I was struggling with my testimony, he could understand to an extent after seeing how I responded to simply doing baptisms in the temple. Now that I'm in the process of leaving, he's not even upset with me as he's seen the effect that the temple had on me physically, and knowing that my testimony is non-existent at this point. I'm thankful that I have a bishop that understands why I'm choosing to walk away. Not everyone gets that.
One of my sibling's children was totally traumatized, too. When she came home from her mission, she refused to ever discuss it with anyone, due to more trauma.
Just curious, coming in late-was your bishop Nick Jones?
@@justkiddin84 it's not. He may be at one around me, but he isn't mine
I’m glad…but wouldn’t put my trust in him.
@@thekathrynwestjust wondered-he is the one who resigned and it got put online and went viral. Seems like a good guy.
Imagine believing in a faith that thinks there's a handshake you need to get into heaven, and then jealously guards that information. Nobody is allowed to go to heaven but the people we deem worthy! God can't make that decision, just us humans who pass on this handshake!
Audacious isn't it..
I had a sort of similar issue when i was thinking about being Catholic as a child. I took issue with the idea that anyone would need a middleman to God, and need to ask another human being to ask God to forgive you in confession. I didn’t think any other human is more important or better than God. I also felt that if “ God is everywhere, all knowing” Etc. that I could just ask him myself from anywhere anyhow. This was the main reason I never believed in Catholicism and decided not to do that any longer.
Trying to gather to worship God and then having these odd things that only involve humans that is supposed to overrule God mashes no sense to me.
Hey Alyssa, thanks for making this! As an ex-mo who bailed as a teenager, I had no idea just how weird things really were. I stopped at the cognitive dissonance; I couldn't reconcile why the 'history' I heard every week in Sunday school was so different from the rest of the world. They said things like Jesus came to North America, or that black people's skin was dark as punishment for Cain's sin. So I had to quit at the racism, misogyny, and blatant disinformation. As the oldest son, this made me a pariah in my own family--even with my own parents. It was only later, after one of my brothers came home early from his mission, that I began to understand how right I was to trust my instincts. I don't think there can be a more textbook example of what a cult is. Nonetheless, since I never made it to the temple, I was always a little curious, so I appreciate that you have shared this information. But I'm also glad I never went; what my mother described of her experience sounded like straight up molestation. Sounds like that has also been tamed down over the years, but honestly, even the current version seems...creepy at best.
Also, how much hate mail do you get? 😆
Thank you for sharing! I’m the oldest in my family and I just left the church a couple years ago. I went to BYU and was probably the most “devout” of my siblings (they were raised much more lax) so my family is “concerned im going down a dark path.” This is the happiest I’ve ever been! Hopefully one day they’ll believe me.
@aislinnberry8487 do you have to be Mormon to go to BYU?
With reading your comment that has not been answered from an ExMo, @@longlegflamingo9107 I can also answer it for you😊 No you do not have to be Mormon to go to BYU. I only discovered this through my Mormon best friend as I am not Mormon & was half way through college & moving away & she recommended me doing classes through BYU because I was able to. I am now a college graduate with a BYU credit under my degree because I did one class through the university while I moved away before moving back home to finish my schooling & get my degree😊
@@longlegflamingo9107you don't have to be Mormon to go to BYU. That being said you have to abide by their strict rules/standards to go there. Also they pray before and after each class/event so you'll be heavily exposed to the religion
BYU cost a lot more if you aren't a member of their church.
I'm not a former member of the church or interested in converting, but I still think this is so valuable to learn about. It's very important to educate people cultish behavior in churches like this, and I fully agree that the church forbidding members from speaking about this is a huge red flag. Thanks for sharing
The church doesn’t forbid members speaking about it. We are taught that it is sacred, thus we don’t talk about it in everyday conversation, but we do talk about it in certain spaces.
Wow, what garbage
Exmo here. Growing up, I always thought the temple clothes were just white clothing. Like you see temple workers wearing when doing baptisms for the dead. I didn't find out there was more to it until a couple years back (been out of the church for a decade). I work at a mortuary and an LDS man passed away. Many LDS get buried in their temple clothes. I saw him in his casket and ready for his viewing and that was the first time I saw the clothes. Other than looking pretty ridiculous, the thing that annoyed me the most was how cheap they were?? Like the apron itself looks like it's made out of material you'd find in a halloween costume from Spirit Halloween. I was like the Mormon church has SO much money and these are supposed to be sacred clothes you wear in the most holy place on earth. And THIS is what they come up with? That sh*t should be made of silk! hahaha
My adopted siblings and I got sealed to my parents in the temple and I remember being really confused and kind of disturbed when they walked out.
As a fellow exmo that left after only doing baptisms and thinking of going into the funeral industry, thank you for this knowledge. My mom only ever says that her friend that works in the crematory loves that Mormon funerals are relatively hands off
@@flutenanyidk1806same.. I wonder how much of the ceremony I've locked in my mind vault. That or I was distracted by looking for/at the eternal mirrors. Don't remember if they're in that room or if I just saw them in an open house
@@lilmisskalik On second thought I'm not sure Mormons do viewings in their temple clothes. So the man I saw may have just been ready for burial. My LDS grandpa had his viewing in a suit and then they changed him into his temple clothes before burial. I think it's because they don't want non-members seeing the temple clothes. And generally members do volunteer to dress the person in their temple clothes because the mortuary staff usually doesn't know how to do it correctly.
OMG, I'm a seamstress, and that's what annoyed me most about the horrible nightgown endowment dress. It's clearly rock bottom polyester levels of cheap. You can see skin tone through the sleeves! ARGH
The leaf aprons are a weird choice, because according to Genesis the leaves are what Adam and Eve tried to use to try and cover their own nakedness. A few verses later, it says that God made them garments of skins. Fur or leather would make more sense for the symbolism... But then, you can't expect logic from a cult.
Fig leafs are very common depiction in artwork about the "first transgression" or even eating the fruit.
@@donalddavis303 That just makes me think that the person making the choice didn't/couldn't READ the passage, and just went by picture and vague memory.
@@FullMoonOctober en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fig_leaf#:~:text=The%20use%20of%20an%20actual,the%20genitalia%20of%20a%20subject.
My grandma recently joined the Mormom church. She's extremely gullible and I worry for her. Thank you for talking about things like this, it's important for people to know.
I grew up in the church. In my opinion it's a whacko misogynistic cult, but not harmful for someone older like your grandmother other than they will want her to tithe. It can actually be a great community of support for older lonely people. I would actively discourage a younger person from joining the church because this is a religion that consumes your entire life. I know many ex-mormons who feel they wasted the best part of their lives.
She was lonely.
Everything you are saying is true! The temple was even creepier when I went for the first time over 40 years ago. Blood oaths and more! Love your videos!
Can you go into further detail about the blood oaths? Are you referring to the cutting of the throat and bowels or something else?
@@bubblegumnnebula The blood oaths in the LDS Church temple ceremony, which were discontinued church-wide in 1990, depicted a willingness to have one's throat cut from ear to ear should the participant reveal certain portions of the sacred rituals or fail to keep promises given during the washing and anointing ordinance.
Like a drug cartel oath 😅
@@bubblegumnnebula not op, and I hope you don't mind me jumping in. The blood oaths used the same signs used now, but they had movements associated with them. The first sign where you put your right arm at a right angle used to start with you dragging your thumb across your throat. The second sign where you make a cupping shape and put your left arm to a right angle used to start with dragging your left thumb across your belly and the cupping shape represented you catching your bowels.
Sometime around 1900, plus or minus a decade probably, they removed the vengeance oath where you promised to exact vengeance on anyone suspected of having contributed to Joseph Smith's death, including the U.S. government (which is why it was dropped, lol). It was a major factor that led to the Mountain Meadows massacre. I vaguely remember it being associated with Utah attempting to become a state. That or the Reed Smoot hearings.
I don't know beyond that. I've learned that from online research. I went through the temple after 1990 but before you remained clothed for the washing and anointing. I left the religion about 6 years ago.
I remember hearing about it growing up. The Blood and Vengeance Oaths. Also curses, John Dee Lee was cursed by Brigham Young.
To think at one time the washing was done by strangers on naked individuals. Did they remove the washing completely?
To think my mother is upset about my tarot cards. Laugh, her religion has way more occult than my oracle cards. 😂
Thank you for doing this. I've been struggling with having left the church and deconstructing my experience.
Throughout primary and young woman's classes there would always be a joke about how cult like we sounded saying the young women's theme or the proclamation to the world, but stepping into the temple and heading to the change room for the first time to go through the anointing and seeing people coming out of the celestial room in their full garb was when it first hit me that this might really be a cult. And now being out of the church and thinking over what i went through, i understand why they discourage young single adults to not get their endowment until they were getting married or going on a mission.
My initial reaction when i saw your video, i felt tense thinking 'how you could talk about this outside of the temple?'. 'Was this allowed?'
But i want to thank you, this really helped me process my thoughts on this. I've still got my temple clothing in a carry-on suitcase at the top of my closet. Not sure what i am going to do with it. Part of me wants to just throw it out, but another part of me wants to alter my temple dress or use the fabric for something new.
I don't know if i will have the courage to discuss everything that happens in the temple as you have done in this video, but i hope to get more comfortable talking about my experience with others, in the church or out.
Thank you for starting this conversation.
Compost or burn? I don’t know what the fabric is but changing its state even just by making things out of the fabric is an excellent idea!! A physical manifestation of your path.
Use the fabric to make a top that shows off your free shoulders! And wear it to burn or compost the rest, as suggested above! Ceremony is not bad if it is individual. It can be really good for us.
Make cute bathroom window curtains?
If you don’t mind me asking, as someone who was raised agnostic if you all knew what you were doing/saying was cult-like how did you never think that was maybe because you were in a cult?
@@sari9645When that's the only thing you've known growing up, it can be hard to realize it until you actually learn more about the rest of the world :/
I was a freemason around 2008 or so. The whole reason I went down the street to the Masonic Temple was because as a gay man, I knew I'd never get my endowment, which I wanted to badly. I tried for years, to no avail. I was a very active, faithful, Mormon, I did Baptisms for the Dead, I paid my tithing, I went to church every Sunday, I read scriptures and prayed every day, and...I can tell you, as a former Mason and Mormon...this is ACCURATE AS HELL. The stuff that happens in the temple is straight up Masonic, there's nothing sacred about it, Joseph Smith was inducted into Masonry, and then came up with this ceremony 2 weeks after that. I left, and I've never been happier. I was also a Golden Investigator. (Have you heard that term, Alyssa? Is that something you could do a video on?) I still live here in Salt Lake, have for 20 years, and can't wait to get out. Mormonism was the best, and also the worst, thing that ever happened to me. I was devastated to find out it was all made up, and I came from an Evangelical Christian background. I converted in 2005, because again, Golden Investigator. Love the interview you did with John Dehlin, keep it up, this stuff needs to be out there because people have a right to know what they are getting into before they join. To go in blindly, like I did, is a Fools Errand. I don't go to church anywhere, now. And before all you current Mormons come for me and tell me to come back, or just pray harder, NO THANKS. My life outside of Mormonism is better than it ever was inside the church.
I admire the self-control of the couples for not laughing hysterically over the "dork" factor of these ridiculous costumes! No wonder it's so secretive!
Minor thing: the sure sign of the nail (second Melchizedek sign) also interlocks pinky fingers. So it's intertwined pinkies AND touching the other's wrist with your index finger. It's really minor and easy to forget. Even when I was a temple worker, I frequently had to remind attendees by hooking pinkies first. Otherwise, this is incredibly comprehensive, neutral, and well-done.
Wait, so you were a temple worker, are you still in the church? Or I should assume you're not since you're publicly talking (and giving details!) about one the handshake? I wonder how many people have walked up to God and not gotten into heaven because they forgot to intertwine their pinky 😆
My step daughtet converted to LDS when she married, and later left the church after her youngest made an observation about how none of it made sense. Turns out her husband had wanted to leave for years. She told me she felt regret about all years wasted, and I told her to let it go. Our very dysfunctional family life meant she needed that structure so she could make a real family, and if there is one thing LDS churches do it is that. You sound very Lutheran now, open to questions and discussion. There is reverent ritual and then cult obsession, and endowment crosses that line imho. Mormons are right there with Masons as far as secret handshakes and all that nonsense.
You're right on the money about the handshakes: Joseph Smith was a Mason, and copied a lot of those rituals for Mormonism.
I also took a temple prep class and they didn't talk about anything that actually happens in the temple. They only very vaguely talked about taking oathes covenants, but didn't go into any specifics and definitely didn't talk about temple garments at all.
I had already done baptisms for the dead in the temple from the time I was 12 though, which is a way for them to gradually introduce the weird and culty aspects of the temple over time and starting at a relatively young age. Like, doing baptisms for the dead seemed like a perfectly normal thing to me at the time. It's essentially like being groomed into a cult.
Baptisms of the dead?
@@maryarney1350 yeah, Mormons do by proxy baptisms for dead people. It's really strange, basically necromancy.
As a native the idea my ancestors could of been forcefully baptized after their death makes me want to cry
What is baptism of the dead about please.
@@maryarney1350 The LDS church believes that millions of people weren't given the opportunity to hear the glorious news about Joseph Smith and the Church so they perform Baptism ceremonies for people who have passes. Some, quite a long time ago. I believe they only Baptize people who were in their direct lineage.. Yes, just saw the church website. It said members are encouraged to offer names of the dead for Baptism, only of their own family. It's considered an "act of familial love". Uh huh. I don't know how you can Baptize someone without their consent. That kind of makes it null and voice, doesn't it?
Thank you for shedding light on these "secret" rituals of the cult. You're educating and helping people with it. I hope you're safe and not threatened by any higher ups.
That’s what I was thinking.
I cant believe how ridiculous this all is🤯. I was a very devout Mormon convert at age 26 and i went as far as taking the temple prep class where i thought i would FINALLY get some not-vague insight as to what "promises" i was going to make. When the class literally taught me NOTHING i just didnt feel comfortable rolling up to the temple to wing it cause i was like "what if i get there and dont want to make the promises??" So i just never went and i left the lds church shortly thereafter. And despite leaving, i never really looked up much temple info "out of respect" for the Church. I just didn't want to be disrespectful and nosy. But when this video popped up in my recommendations today i thought why not. And holy moly, i can't believe how ridiculous it all is 🤯🤦♀️. So glad i didn't go thru with it 😂.
Yep, you didn't miss anything. We didn't learn anything new "about eternity" in the Temple, like we were led to believe. Nothing new but the handshakes and penalties and having to pantomime unaliving ourselves. I tried so hard to make it a spiritual experience, but it just wasn't.
I'm so grateful to you for making these videos. I'm not LDS, wasn't raised in any church, don't practice any faith (I've been an atheist for years), but I believe it's important for anyone who decides to join a church do it willingly and with full consent as well as a comprehensive understanding of what will be expected of them. Pressuring anyone a week or a month before one of the biggest events of their lives (like going on a mission or getting married) seems dangerously close to extortion.. And I agree with you that practices should be able to withstand the light of day, open discussion, and questioning. Good for you, Alyssa! Please keep offering your unique perspective. I have to imagine you've been a great comfort to LDS young people.
Oh wow, I'm further in the video now and you are sooooooooo right: #cult (and how dare you reveal the Secret Handshake!) #eyeroll
@missyvanwinkle9247
Just a suggestion, if you look up Job middle of the Bible and read Job 36,37,38,39& 40 you may second look at a Creator. Best wishes
Respect someone's right not to believe. Religion or not having one is up to that person and only that person. @@suestephan3255
I *am* religious (but not a Mormon, now or ever) and I would not join a church that wasnt willing to tell you everything they taught and believed, openly and for free, as well as what members of the church do and what their worship and activities are like.
@@suestephan3255 This is so rude. It's as rude as anyone who's not a member of your religion coming up and telling you how your beliefs are wrong and why you should follow their beliefs instead. You're not changing anyone's minds; you're just being arrogant and inconsiderate.
Can I just say thank you so much for explaining all this? Transparency and Truth are some of the highest ideals and I love seeing you shed light on the forbidden.
Regardless of what the church may think, you have viewers, supporters and fans. We're watching. We appreciate the education, your ability to clarify and explain things easily and in a way where we can process it with no confusion, etc. Thank you, Alyssa. You and your channel are wonderful.
The more I know about the Mormon church the creepier they appear.
I feel it’s incredibly concerning the level of secrecy to the point of no informed consent when you finally do go. I could imagine feeling very shocked and overwhelmed.
❤
I think you're entire video can be summed up with a phrase that was said to me a few years ago: safe adults don't keep secrets.
The fact that the church thrives on secrets is just all the red and all the flags
I have watched several of your videos. Thank you for explaining some of the questions I had about your former faith. My hometown is where Joseph Smith married his first wife. The elderly people in my small hometown spoke about what their parents or grandparents did. Joseph Smith said he could walk on water. He told the townspeople to meet him at the river in the morning. The parents (or maybe grandparents) of the elderly residents saw him putting planks under the river surface that night. Instead of "telling" on him they left most of the planks in place except for the middle of the river. They took those out. The next morning Joseph Smith started walking across the water and everyone was awed - then he reached the middle of the river and fell into the water. His scheme was discovered and he was run out of town. There is a historical marker at the fairgrounds marking the place where Joseph Smith's house stood where he married his first wife. To this day, there is no Mormon church or temple there. There are still a few holes that he dug looking for some sort of treasure.
People, especially the hardcore religious people, get angry when their religion gets deconstructed and demystified.
It's important to demystify ALL organizations so that all people will be informed of what it really is and make decisions based on that.
I looked forward to going to the temple my whole life and when I finally went after all those years (before going on a mission) it was the biggest let down of my life. Looking at my mom and dad in their silly garb is one of my funniest memories. I’m glad I’m out of the cult.
Went through the temple to take out my endowments and got married the next weekend when I was 20. NEVER WENT BACK INTO THAT BUILDING, it freaked me out!! I only went back on my wedding day cause I actually had to because that’s where Mormons get married and the plans were all made. Stopped going to church within a month. The most culty experience ever. I might as well have been in a devil’s church. It creeped me out, it felt so wrong! It never ever resonated with me and after a few more Sundays at church I turned and ran!! Never looked back and I questioned my sanity because people that I know and loved were in it deeply. I went my own way and never looked back. I now look upon the members with pity because most of them were born into the religion as I was. However I chose to be a free thinker which is frowned upon by the leaders. They tell you that the devil is the one who makes you question things. Nope it’s not the devil, it’s your “ inner knowing”, your gut feeling. Never question your intuition. It is ALWAYS correct. Be your authentic self. Live your life to the fullest, do not let anyone tell you that you are worthy or not worthy. There should be no middle man between you and the creator. You were born with inner knowing. Believe in yourself!!!!
100% agree that there is no need for a middle man between you and God. Ever
Truth!
I found this fascinating. A good friend of mine, who grew up in Catholicism, like me, married a man, and took on his religion, which was Mormonism. I asked her 1 million questions but she couldn’t really answer them. She has since passed away, but I know that she prayed for my past, and for my soul to go to heaven. This whole thing is fascinating. I’m also learning about Scientology since it’s been in the news so much. I don’t really practice any organized religion anymore. My relationship to God is my own and private.
Scientology is a cult and theres so much proof to back it up. Listen, I'm all for experimenting and learning, but be careful. if the religion was invented after 1000 years ago its not worth your time. Also I'm a private practicing christian and I've never felt so much peace with my relationship with God.
seventh day adventists and jehovah's witnesses are also really interesting modern day cults. you should check them out. both still going strong in the USA. Prince was a JW. Honestly if Prince ever tried to sell me a "Watchtower" I would probably buy it lol.
Your last sentence is spot on.
As a young deacon I remember a very boring class teached by a very boring lady. I had many calluses on my hands form working on the farm and I was rubbing them together because it felt weird. Out of no where she yelled; "BY GOD, YOU LITTLE SH**, GO WAIT BY THE BISSHOPS OFFICE NOW!" Having no clue what happened I walked around to the office onto the best chairs in the building and pulled out the gameboy at the bottom of my book bag, I was so mad about getting kicked out of class. After class about an hour later she requested to talk to the bishop about an urgent matter. It was about me doing the handshakes one for one in class, I had no clue and when she told the bishop he laughed. He was a family friend and knew there was no way I would know about them. He sent the lady on her way and give me a hand full of candy.
After I left a had a old Seminary teacher tell me that she puts my name in to be prayed on. Funny how someone who has rejected god gets their name "blessed" daily.
@@Razzle_Dazzle5not really? If you believe you're right and that no one who disagrees with you will have a good outcome- it's really horrible to not hope they'll come around. How much must you hate someone to genuinely believe they'll burn in hell and not care at all?
I can’t lie, I have been hoping for longer form content and I am SO happy
Will you talk about your wedding/ceremony? Do you have any regrets? What do you not regret?
What benefits do you or your hubby feel like you receiving from being raised Mormon? Or do you think that there were none?
Sorry for all of the questions, I’m fascinated. You are the only person I’ve come across that lays things out in detail like this!
not sure if you saw, but a couple days ago she posted a video about her wedding 🙂
I think the biggest benefit is like… don’t do drugs and being pretty boring in all honesty. If anything the other parts of my life is that boring is stable, which is nice.
I don’t like being shoved into one very specific box though. Just because I want to HAVE THE OPTION to be a stay at home mom doesn’t mean I aspire to be a perfect ‘50s housewife my whole life and feel pushed into that role.
I became inactive at around 18, I had doubted since 13, hearing about this and watching this feels so taboo and surreal. I never knew anything about these parts of Mormon religion, my parents and siblings refused to answer any question I had about temple things and I’m honestly glad I never went to get temple endowments Thank you for making this video, and your others too, it’s helped me understand more about my religious trauma and why it was so strange the way I was brought up
Thank you for talking about this stuff! I wish I'd been able to see it ahead of time before I was endowed 21 years ago. It took me ten years to finally step away and admit out loud that it had been awful. If you are a young person reading this - you don't have to go through the temple. If you go and you don't like it, that's okay! So many of us out here understand, even if everyone in your circle of family and friends tell you it's amazing. You aren't crazy for thinking it's not. ❤
You just another fake. But don't worry. You don't believe in God, he doesn't believe in you.
Comments such as yours will, hopefully, make the path to freedom from any religious organisation much easier. Thank you 😊 👍🏽🥰🥰♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️
All II can say to ya is enjoy outa darkness then
@@thepreacher5934leaving the church isn't an automatic ticket to outer darkness.
@@chlyri For apostates that fight against it, it is
Thank you for the explanations of the ceremonies, handshakes and garments. Demystifing a religion makes it easier to understand. Growing up all I knew about Mormons was they had a choir that sang Christmas songs. As an older teen, my family visited the Mormon headquarters/visitor center/museum in Salt Lake City. Now I live 30 minutes from Church of Christ Temple Lot in Independence, MO. I have no interest in converting to the religion but I like learning about the practices and philosophies.
Did you mean the LDS Temple in Independence? Not the Church of Christ temple...they don't call any building a "Church", they believe the people who attend are the Church itself.
@dod2304 Interesting! I guess you could be a church all by yourself, in that case? I was very lucky that I grew up in a non-denominational family, and I feel sorry for those who are born into zealotry. It's just down to pure dumb luck, I guess. 🤔🥰♥️♥️♥️
@dod2304 whichever one has the spire that they believe Jesus will descend down. I know it by sight not name.
@vikkiledgard8483 I was raised Secular Humanist by two teachers. Curiosity was encouraged.
There was a temple recently opened in Bentonville Arkansas which is incredibly close to independence which is also called the foothill of zion at times. Hi I'm a lifetime Mormon and now 18 and very confused as my mother and father push me towards my mission and this ceremony. I'm glad I can know what to expect now if I do end up going if I can't escape before that
I'm 25 and never went through the temple. This explains so much about church leadership, devotion to callings, and my parents. Thank you for doing this
I hope you won't get too much backlash, this is really interesting to me as a non Mormon
Well, no Mormon could comment on this video at least, since they would be admitting to conducting “forbidden research” (that’s what I’m going to call watching porn from now on).
Baptism for the dead was a trip. I remember thinking mine didn't count bc I had doubt. Was unbothered. Final straw was being told my sister wouldn't make it to heaven with me.
My mom asked me who I felt and I said cold 😂
Nothing say "cult", quite like secret handshakes, lol! Any god that requires secret passworda or handshakes is not omnipotent or benevolent.
Lol I read "omnipotent" as "competent" the first time
I am a 32 degree Freemason--A lot of these sacred endowments are straight out of Freemasonry. Smith was a Freemason. Were these really given to Smith by God?
👀
Yeah they teach about how “beautiful it is that God inspired Joseph Smith to bring back the ancient temple rights through free masonry.”
They’re just stolen 🤷♀️
Thank you for confirming this. Aren’t all or most the past and present LDS apostles 32nd or 33rd degree FM? Isn’t the symbolism outside the temples FM? Asking for a friend…
@@krisgeorge25I can't comment on on the LDS apostles--I have doubts, as Mormons have always denied the theft of Freemasonry Ceremonies.
Exactly.
Thank you Alyssa for your CZcams broadcasts. It takes incredible courage to break the no-talk rules. I have never made a comment like this. I am a 72 year old mom and grandma. The last week I have been listening to many broadcasts about Mormans that have left the church. I’ve listened to some bishops who have left also. It breaks my heart to hear your stories, of the pain and loss. I too left a legalistic church and experienced many of the same abuses. My husband was the one with the courage to break the no-talk rules. I send you lots of love and a big hug. I am praying and will continue to pray for you and all of you that have left a legalistic system. Man does a great job messing up things!! What legalistic churches are missing is grace,
God’s grace! I have feasted on God’s grace and unfailing love, that comes through Jesus Christ. And I have healed. I am doing a study on the book of Acts. It was interesting to note that the early church (Acts 4:33) was described as, “great grace was upon them all”. “Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ”.
As a kid, I thought the temple was for three things: 1 I knew you could get married there which I assumed was just like a normal wedding but inside the temple. 2 I knew about baptisms for the dead and that seemed understandable because why shouldn’t the dead also be able to get into heaven? And lastly 3, I had heard about people going back to the temple even weekly so i assumed that’s where you went and they would give you a Sunday school lesson and then you just got to sit in the celestial room for a while and think and pray and whatever. Never knew about the clothing or the handshakes or the secret names or the rituals or the symbols on the garments or the chanting or the veil or pledges. So weird to think that my parents and all 6 of my siblings have done this and are still somehow believing in the church?? Like what? How is this NOT a red flag? The church has always taught that you get into heaven by being baptized and following Jesus, never did it say anything about handshakes and magic clothes. It feels misleading and dishonest. Quite frankly it feels betraying
Thank you for finally answering all the questions 14 year old me had about what was going on in the areas of the temple I couldn't see, I thought leaving the church killed my only opportunity to find out lol
This now helps me understand why Stephenie Meyer hasn't donated any money from the successful twilight franchise to the real quilleute people who are fundraising to help move their buildings... its because everything God may bless her is for the church.....
Joined with family at 10, baptized at 12, baptized 15 times for the dead and sealed to my parents at 16. Left at 18. Having "missed out" on a mission and temple wedding, I am grateful that I wasn't even more traumatized. Thank you for confirming further that I made the right choice for myself xox
I'm not Mormon, but I was in a sorority( Gamma Phi Beta), and this reminds me so much of that. the mysterious and secret nature of it all is so similar. initiation was the scariest part. once we were initiated, we learned about our founders and history, and we learned all of the traditions. we also had a secret handshake and password that we would have to give to be let inside our chapter meetings.
Thank you for making this really informative, levelheaded video about the temple.
I've been out of the church for the better part of a decade and, barring a website that spoke in vagueries about the endowment, this is the first time I've actually seen the process explained. Not for lack of content, but because I'm finally far enough out of it to where I don't feel a pit in my stomach every time I see the signs and tokens outside of an LDS standpoint. I never went through the anointing or endowment, but used to do baptisms for the dead every week.
One thing that struck me was the temple rolls. I've had members of my family tell me they've put my name in the temple rolls, and had it explained that that meant temple workers would pray for me.
This is probably a little silly, but I sometimes took comfort in knowing that, somewhere, someone was personally praying for my wellbeing. To learn that my name was actually thrown into a sack with a ton of other names while a generic prayer was said over the sack is...disappointing.
Baseline tip: 15%
When you said talking about and showing tokens is the worst thing you could reveal and you were about to reveal them: 20% tip
Brought out the extra hand: 50% tip
I don’t know you but I’m sure we would be good friends 😭😭😂
I’m stuck in this rabbit hole of ex-morman content and Im not even a n exmo but you might have been the only one who gave us an extra hand 😭🤣
I went through when I was 17 and it was TRAUMATIZING!! Everyone kept telling me how beautiful it would be and how wonderful I would feel….nope, I was scared and I didn’t understand what or why I was doing things. People are touching you while you are naked under a sheet and telling you to say these crazy things! It was not a good experience!!
Wait whaaat? Why are you naked under a sheet?
@@ivriyah8456control. fear. manipulation.
17? how long ago was that? i could have sworn everyone had to be 18+.
@@chlyri It was in the 80s. I know lots of people that went through in their teen years.
im not mormon but grew up in an area where it was a prominent population. this channel is eyeopening and i want to thank you for sharing your experiences
I was raised Anglican ( Church of England) and also participated in the Masonic Temple's girl program, Job's Daughters. I always wondered why (in Job's Daughters) we didn't have Mormon or Jewish girls. Once a month, we'd visit a church en masses, wearing our white satin robes with long, braided cords encircling our body. Think angles, with no wings. We also wore a purple and white ribbon in our hair, like a headband. Our three elected leaders wore knee length, purple velvet capes. Hearing you speak of your experience brought that memory back for me.
I went to the temple in 1988. When they did the you cut your throat and bowel BS. I was thinking the whole time.. WTF does this have to do with anything? I never went back.
I appreciate all that you do to educate and advocate ❤❤
Very interested in the anointing ceremony if you are making a follow up video. My grandfather was a Mormon convert and desperately tried to push my dad into it who rejected it vehemently. After my grandma died who was the love of his life, he was ordered by the church to marry this horrendous woman “for time on earth” and it destroyed our family. Always wanted to know how he was swayed by all this secretive magic nonsense to leave his real family behind.
That is something new I have never heard. That the church MADE him marry someone he didn't want to. Never have I ever heard or seen that.
By getting people to do strange rituals under cover of secrecy, it's intended to reinforce the 'insider versus outsider' mindset, to be part of a group that 'knows something others don't' that makes them special. The fact that it's silly and nonsensical in a lot of ways also helps to separate people from the outside, because they'll want to stay with those that normalize the experience, rather than risk ridicule by outside influences. Very culty, yep.
One reason I left the church was because no one would tell me what this ceremony was all about. I could not reconcile that with being able to exercise my free agency. As an anthropologist I can appreciate how pagan the Mormon religion is too. It's been an interesting 30 years working through the religious trauma.
It made me smile to know that you and your husband still do the handshake sometimes just to be funny-that you are able to have a sense of humor about your former religion even though it’s caused you a lot of heartache. Thank you for the work you do on this channel!
This is so educational. The Mormon Church should write a book on "how to trauma bond people to your religion with these simple steps" book 😅 They are clearly experts on the matter. The whole thing is just one big "yikes" moment
You’re not supposed to talk about the handshakes because then people will realize they’re Masonic handshakes 😂 those are exact handshake Freemasons use to greet each other. Told all this to my mom and she still tried to justify it. She’s still so engrained. Please give me advice on how to help her because I just don’t know what to do anymore
PS: Alyssa your hair is so darling. You’re just so darn cute
I don't have advice for helping her but be grateful you're still communicating with her
Thanks, as always, for sharing these videos! I always learn so much.
I always appreciate all the ways you share how Mormon beliefs/practices are different from “traditional” Christianity (e.g. Protestant, Catholic, etc).
I’m learning more about my own beliefs by, what at least feels like, a “reject the Null hypothesis” kind of thing.
Aka, I’m learning more about my beliefs by realizing how different LDS beliefs are from my own.
Super interesting! Thanks again for sharing!
I went through this 30 years ago but to make it worse, I had to take out my endowments at the LIVE session at SLC temple. It took like 3 hours!!!! I was in shock and wanted to run but by then you feel you’re locked in. NO one and I mean NO one could prepare you for this. And at that time you had to do the sign/token of slitting your throat. AND they told you over and over if you talked about these signs and tokens you would surely be burned in hell. Then ..the mission. What PTSD I’m going through listening. It’s so great to hear young people like you are out there spreading awareness of this cult but I need this step away for a week and then come back to listen to more. I feel nauseous. 🤢 great work Alyssa!
Liars relate to liars.
As soon as you said "they've made changes," i kind of gasped. So glad you went into how that felt for you, thank you.
Using “sacred” and “secret” interchangeable is the hallmark of a cult. Treating something as sacred is reverence. Treating it as a secret makes it a cult. If it is for all, then you should share it with all.
YES
Yup just like their justification of hiding 129 Billion dollars. 🤷♀️
I’m a Catholic, and I can see how this could be harmful…especially the belief that you have to do these things to enter a higher degree in heaven. Thanks for posting. I come from a faith tradition where we believe baptism is a necessary part of becoming a part of God’s family. However, it’s also important to know that we believe God can give this grace to an unbaptized person just through their genuine desire for it…It’s called baptism of desire. :) So, technically, we can never make a judgment of who gets into heaven or doesn’t get into heaven, whether they’re Christian or not. This is all super interesting to me because I enjoy learning about different faith traditions, and that’s why I’m taking the time to explain what I believe.
Thank you for being so brave to explain some of the inner workings of the Mormon church. I know it's not easy, and would be easier to go away quietly, but so many things are cloaked in secrecy today. Kudos to you for being one who is exposing the lies.
Thank you for what you do. I left the church in 2013 and so many non Mormons around me are learning from videos like yours about why I was upset.
Have you thought about getting married again to your husband but with the wedding that you missed out on? Or is this something that you don’t really care about? I loved my wedding dress and can’t imagine getting married in something that doesn’t make me feel beautiful.
She did speak about this in one of her videos and said she would like to have a second ceremony.
Thank you for sharing! I truly hope young people still in the church get to see this so they know what to expect, and if it’s truly something that aligns with them.
Dude those handshakes are wild (I’ve been thinking about leaving but I’m still living with suuuuuuper religious parents who are paying my bills)
I hope you can get out soon and experience the wonders of the world! One of the easiest ways to get started is go to college in a different area or even a different country (it's dirt cheap in most places). Apply for all the scholarships and grants, work on campus and eventually as a TA for free housing.... It makes it a lot easier to move somewhere completely new. You could also do the same for trade school.
Or if you have work experience, you might be able to find a good company in another city/state and move there; sometimes they'll even assist with housing. This could include entry level salaried positions like working as a bank teller.
Either way, financial independence is SUCH a huge piece of the puzzle. There are probably forums and Reddit groups filled with advice on how to gain this independence, especially as an ex Mormon. Once you have that, you can start living your OWN life. Wishing you luck!
Also, not being able to have coffee or tea is so strange to me because tea is one of the world's largest consumed beverages. Seems like a really strange thing to tack on there.
Honestly the tea and coffee is just a random. It’s not about the caffeine as Mormons like to say as they are allowed to drink/eat other things that contain it like energy drinks and cola and chocolate. Basically it’s just to display obedience …they are told specifically not to drink those things so they don’t. There is no reason why except they were told in a revelation not to.
People who like coffee and tea sometimes like to get together and sit around and talk. The Morg likes to totally control group meetings, in order to control the narrative.
It comes from the time when Joseph kept coming home drunk and Emma said she was done with him - then he revealed that alcohol wasn’t allowed, but he was pissed that she kept having tea parties and having her ladies around - so he revealed that tea and coffee went against the word of wisdom too…
it all is just controlling people.
Joseph Smith probably didn't want to pay for tea for all his concubines.
It's crazy how many people go through this process and never once think "is this a cult?"
This is absolutely fascinating stuff, and you are skilled at explaining things!
It really feels like you care about your audience, and share the basic facts, as well as your own thoughts on it, really eloquently. I can feel even through explaining that its believed to be disrespectful to share these "secrets", that you still have a level of compassion for the people that believe this stuff, and how many don't have a solid chance to step back and analyze it, for the many reasons the church contrives. It's a very well insulated echo chamber. I recognize your bravery even if I don't have the same depth of understanding you do of growing up in a high control belief system.
I'm excited to see more of your deconstruction journey, and just your thoughts and reflections on life in general
🌌🦋🌈
Thank you for sharing. More education should never be hidden. Knowing gives you choices and know what you are following.
At first I was a Catholic, not so much out of conviction, nut because all of my family were. Going to church on Sundays was, for me, just a habit, and I can't really say that I felt enlightened at any time. I listened to everything they said, and even though I understood it psychologically I can't say that it ever really touch my soul. As the years progressed I asked myself more and more questions about the message itself, and after several years of evolving my position towards religion and god, I have become an atheist. Ever since I came to that conclusion many, many, many years ago I have never looked back and am 100% at peace with my decision. If there were more people like you, with your open-mindedness, eloquence, clarity of thought, and impecable delivery of your message, the world would be a better place. Thank you for what you do, and thank you for making all of us who watch your videos more knowledgeable.
Alyssa I found you on TikTok and I LOVE your content!!! I’m so happy you found your truth. I saw your book was published and I’m gonna buy it! I am a proud supporter of you! Just wanted to say how fantastic you are ❤❤❤❤❤
Thank you for coming forward and sharing this difficult time of your life with us
You are wonderfully brave
Thank you for sharing what you went through and pulling back the curtain on the whole religion
It’s soo important
They temporarily opened up the Mormon Temple in my area to the public a few years ago and I got to go into the Celestial Room and I was sooooo confused as to why there was a fancy lounge on the top floor. They did not explain anything about it (now I know why) so I thought it was like a reception area for holy people. This explanation makes everything make sense (kind of)
All they said was it was a place to contemplate your faith. I fully interpreted it as a fancy time out room like “go to the stark white hotel lobby and think about your actions”
Thank you for the work you're doing. This ritual checks off so many criteria of the BITE model, particularly the information control section.
I have the utmost respect for you Alyssa. Such strength to see is wrong to not be allowed to learn and speak
As a former Mormon I applaud your honest videos about the church. I was baptized at a very young age when I just went along with what I was told. Many years later I tried to educate myself about what I questioned but became very skeptical that what the church believed and how it changed over time. I found another Church family and asked to have my name removed from the membership rolls. Not that they don't still come knocking on my door. Interesting how my name and address gets passed along as I move.
I really appreciate all the information. First hand accounts and explanations are invaluable, and I like to be well informed on these kinds of practices. They're honestly incredibly fascinating.
Thank you! And I hope your channel continues to grow
Thank you for sharing what putting your name on the prayer roll means. I was Mormon for 35 years, but never made it to the temple, so I never knew exactly what that meant. My ex mother-in-law would always tell me she was doing that for me and to know that all it entails is my name in a bag that people pray above is pretty disappointing lol.
This is why I love @youtube. Thank you, Alyssa, for teaching me something new and telling your story. I grew up in the Seventh Day Adventist church and the salvation based pressure and cult-like rules still have a lasting impact on me as an adult. I had to depart and, though my family isn’t pleased of course, I’ve found my own way with the Almighty. This is affirming and interesting, thank you so much. Sending much love and good vibes to you.✨🙏🏾💓
Thank you for your bravery and transparency.
Love your content! I see you put a lot of effort into presenting this information and I really appreciate your work.
i think the final straw for me when i left the church was when i was being pushed by my mom to go through the temple and get the garments. just something about it seemed really really off. now i know why
thank you for making this video. to be honest i was always scared to go deeper into the temple beyond baptisms because of how secretive it was. if someone started speaking very vaguely to me about something that happens in the temple, other people would give them a very scary warning "dont do it" look and that always scared me a lot
Fascinating! Thank you so much for your honesty and remarkable courage in sharing this information!
This content is uniquely brave and honest. Exclusivity lies at the heart of the church and most that question these practices remain quiet for fear of letting the wrong person ‘get in on’ it, or some divine retribution that is truly just the judgement of those that wanted to be in an exclusive eternal club so badly that they never questioned it.