The Transit Solution Toronto Needs
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- čas přidán 11. 10. 2023
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Toronto's GO Transit has a lot of bilevel cars and diesel locomotives, but with the electrification of the system, a new type of train is needed. We talk about it in our latest video!
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Ever wondered why your city's transit just doesn't seem quite up to snuff? RMTransit is here to answer that, and help you open your eyes to all of the different public transportation systems around the world!
Reece (the RM in RMTransit) is an urbanist and public transport critic residing in Toronto, Canada, with the goal of helping the world become more connected through metros, trams, buses, high-speed trains, and all other transport modes.
I'm an urban planner in the GTA and I'm very thankful that you're making videos about this. I hope your arguments make it to the decision-makers (definitely not me, I'm just a maps and data nerd 😂)
Cool! I'm a student of urban planning and this is the passion of my life.
I think Toronto is perfect to set the North American standard on EMU’s. CalTrain ordered 23 Statler sets, but an order from GO would dwarf that multiple times over. With the order that they would put in, the economy of scale would bring costs down themselves, never mind if they went with Statler, who is already making them for CalTrain, or anyone else interested in the order, Marc, Septa, and TriRail come to mind. Probably not feasible to put in a fleet replacement order as it stands now, but adding a couple sets to a multiple hundred set order may get momentum moving.
A public tender for a sizable amount of trains over a span of years including 10-20 years of maintenance can easily result in bids of new local facilities and factory expansions. You scale the economies yourself at that point. Long-term government planning can do amazing things and they should absolutely do it.
@@Mr_Stone1 yes, but with the consistent inability for companies to pull new designs out of their….hats…..going with a company already making them, with a design they can approve, will streamline the process years, and millions in change orders.
What has to be done first is electrify the tracks. That's been discussed for many years, yet never seems to happen. Once that's done, you can run your choice of electrical propulsion.
Oh absolutely, it would be a huge order that could really change things!
Has anyone traveled province to province in a Train? Like ON to Sask or Manitoba via rail?
GO bi-level cars: 50 years young, no need to replace
TTC T1 cars: 30 years old, need urgent replacement
East when those Bi-Level just stayed parked at the yard for hours when it’s not rush hour back when there’s no all day service, but then again all day is like once an hour
Make it make sense haha
Trains that get used at an hour/half hour and 10-15 mins at most during rush hours vs trains that get used every 3-6 mins and run 18-20 hours a day
@@RMTransit Hawker Siddeley stuff is just built different.
Props for the EMU Emu joke, Reece 😁
In the UK, I think the only loco-hauled trains remaining are the sleeper services, which are pulled by engines that mostly do freight work, and the Class 43 (InterCity 125) trains, which are about 40-48 years old and being phased out.
This might also have something to do with the tiny UK loading gauge where double-deck stock is a non-starter - neither EMU nor loco-hauled
@ Yeah, all the low Victorian bridges make double-deckers basically an impossibility in the UK.
Still, only 1/3 of the uk’s rail is electrified. Cities like Sheffield (population 600,000 have ZERO electrified lines to and from them and projects like the transpennine electrification is taking 20+ years to electrify about 70-90 miles of track and won’t be done until 2041!
In the Netherlands, it's cross border services where they lasted the longest. With replacing the locomotive before crossing the border. Although most international trains now have locomotives that can run on multiple types of voltages.
@@random27 in Germany, there are still plenty of loco-hauled services. For regional, the last new locos we delivered about 10 years ago, but the long-distance branch is currently awaiting delivery of a whole new series of locos and coaches from Talgo, to be branded "ICE L"
Hamilton getting transit in the distant future is the only kind we get. Still waiting on that McGinty-era LRT...
Idk, the GO service to West Harbour all day is pretty great, and its frequency should be improved in coming years!
On Long Island, this is the same way with the EMD DE30AC and DM30AC locomotives and C3 coaches as much of the LIRR is non-electrified like the Greenport section of the Ronkonkoma Branch between Ronkonkoma and Greenport, between Huntington and Port Jefferson on the Port Jefferson Branch, the Oyster Bay Branch, and the Montauk Branch. The reason they're bi-levels compared to the rest of the LIRR fleet is because the platforms on the diesel branches are shorter, and so using bi-levels will help get the capacity they want while making up for the shorter platforms. The difference between the DE30ACs and DM30ACs, is that the DM30ACs can turn on electric mode to enter Penn Station.
Because of the fact the DM30ACs are limited, direct service to Penn Station from the diesel branches only happen during peak hours, but that's not the only major problem. In the case of the Montauk Branch, it is single-track between Sayville all the way to Montauk. Double-tracking all the way to Montauk may not be realistic, but there is no excuse not to electrify and double-track at least up to Speonk where regular commuter service ends. Electrifying, let alone double-tracking, would make a huge difference for those who live on the South Shore of Suffolk County and rely on the Montauk Branch as their connection to the big city. Not to mention those who live on Fire Island year-round and take ferries to the stations.
Glad to see Sweden's transit being mentioned! Feels like it doesn't get brought up often.
I try to bring it up pretty often!
I think if Toronto was to go (pun intended) with EMUs, they could retire an equivalent set of Bilevels for every EMU they buy, assuming they put up the wires before ordering hundreds of EMUs. That way each EMU fills a place where the Bilevels were in the yard. Eventually I could see those Bilevels (especially the cab cars) being rebuilt into actual EMUs for service instead of buying completely new EMUs.
Interestingly enough that was the original plan the MBTA had a few years back before their regional rail planning went off the rails (pun intended)
Potentially even more assuming the EMUs are better utilized!
Have the EMUs run single during off peak hours. Couple them into doubles or triples during peak hours and supplement with double deckers configured into long trains. That allows for high frequency, without the excessive wear on the material that comes from empty trains.
@@placeholdername0000not enough capacity during off peak, at least not for the main lines. I go during off peak and the trains are often half full.
@@adorabell4253 Plausibly, but the option of going between having 3 units coupled during peak and 2 during off peak is also nice. But for night services, I would presume one to be enough.
Even here in Chile we've bought CRRC, Alstom and CAF EMUs and our cities are sprawling fast, EFE Valparaíso alone has a 50km Suburban train and planning to extend it even further
Ps. Alstom's Xtrapolis trains are so good, here we have an older generation (like the ones in Melbourne) and a newer generation Xtrapolis (closer to CAF's Civia)
I wouldn't touch Alstom products with a 10 pole (unless it was bombardier equipment) since alstom has proven to not be able to make good trains for Use in the US or Canada as every single piece of equipment Amtrak has bought from alstom has been a disaster it's so bad Amtrak is looking to sue alstom over it because the Aveilias don't work
@@IndustrialParrot2816 down south alstom has been making pretty solid products, like the already mentioned xtrapolis, the alstom metropolis used in the suburban railways of brazil and for metro systems like in argentina, chile, mexico and so on
@@IndustrialParrot2816watched Alan fisher huh, Amtrak orders have been pretty spotty and Ottawa O train fiasco has been a been a design flaw
@@TheRandCrews don't forget the Coradias and PRASA's X'trapolis trains have had problems too and a bunch of other operators have had issues with Alstom products and again Amtrak has had nothing but headaches with every single piece of alstom rolling stock they have tried
CRRC is ban in the US. I don’t know how trade agreements are in Canada.
It honestly seems insane that there isn't a proper EMU suburban rail in North America. They're so "standard issue" in Australia. It's seems so strange to say that another country could learn a lot from transit in Australia as we are forever comparing ourselves to Europe and Asia whilst asking "why can't we be like that?" but the S-bahn style systems you find here would be a really good model to role out across North America, especially if you have a lot of downtown tunnels with multiple lines feeding into them (to give you near metro frequencies in dense areas) like we have.
Have to second this, suburban rail run with frequent EMUs is something that just works for sprawling cities.
we're fighting our own war against the emu up here
NYC, Philadelphia and Denver have EMU suburban rail
Hmm Metro North and LI RR and Septa RegionalRail
Philadelphia, Denver, San Francisco, New York, and part of Chicago all have electrified EMU service and Boston's MBTA is supposed to join them but sure are taking their sweet time about Electrification and Rolling stock procurement
Love your videos. I dont understand why you dont work for the city. You are so smart. I work at the ttc and literally nobody theres even uses public transportation.. so frustrating!!!
As someone uses the GO twice -three times a week, and is doing a presentation of accessible public transit thanks for this video!
Electric loco-hauled trains can be entirely fine on routes where there's more than ~4 kilometers between stops. Here in Copenhagen, my commuter line (The Coast Line from Copenhagen to Elsinore) recently moved from being EMU-operated to mostly using double decker cars and electric locomotives. But the service did not actually become slower at all, because the new Siemens Vectron locomotives have a very good acceleration. And this route actually only has 3-4 kilometers between stops, on average. On routes with tighter stop spacing, EMUs are a necessity. But for trains that are more regional in nature, electric locomotives can be entirely fine.
That said, some of the Bilevel cars probably should be retired by now. 50 years is very old indeed. They should be replaced with EMUs, preferably as soon as possible - but there's no need to rush through the replacement of the newer bilevel cars.
Also, the platforms in Toronto are so low that it is impossible to have a train with that floor height through the entire train. You could possibly have level entry on EMUs, but you would need to have stairs internally in the train due to the bogies. They would also have to be rather tall stairs compared to what you usually see in European EMUs which are built for platform heights of 55 or 76 cm.
Yes, but that will not / should not be the case for GO routes
@@RMTransit If we just look at the Kitchener Line, the stations as far as Mount Pleasant are all 4-7 kilometers apart, and it's similar on most of the network. At those distances, running loco-hauled stock is not a significant detriment in terms of acceleration. And even if an extra stop was to be built at Spadina, then having a single inter-stop distance of only 1 km would not be a big problem. For the stations that are furthest apart (7 km) you could even add new infill stations without running into any issues with the marginally slower acceleration of double-decker coaches. But I really do think you overestimate the difference between modern electric locomotives and EMUs in terms of acceleration. It's not that big.
Another reason why many cities want EMUs is because then you can have passenger accomodation over the entire platform length, increasing capacity, but that is not an issue with the very long platforms that GO has.
The best solution, as I see it, would be to start acquiring EMUs as soon as possible to replace the old (35+) coaches. The newer Bilevel cars (with electric locomotives) could then be moved to the express services, where there's a greater distance between stations and fewer stations where the passenger exchange can be an issue, while the EMUs would be used at the lines with more frequent stops. Then, gradually replace the remaining bilevel cars as they reach 30-35 years of age.
The youngest of the BiLevel cars are only 3 years old. Throwing them out because you want fancy EMUs would be a waste, when they can do the job almost as well. Didn't you make a video just a week ago on how we shouldn't throw 20-year old trains out, but refurbish them instead?
Kudos for expanding the thinking of what could be improved transit in Toronto…and even Canada. However it may be bolder to expand the thinking beyond the state of this technology within the G7 countries. For example, taking China’s models-where applicable, given they are now the leaders in this field. For example, station design with higher level of passenger amenities, intermodal planning, optimization of guideways, right of way and grade separations, funding method such transit oriented development, more advanced trains, controls, communication and payment systems, construction methodology, etc. etc… when you come down to the basics, it may be our political system that creates the inherent disadvantage in this sector. The short election cycles conflicts with long-term planning and implementation.
@@wasmic5zYou don't even need to buy electric locomotives. Regardless of the bilevels' fate, GO has a large fleet of diesels, most of which were bought in the late 2000s and 2010s, that will be out of work as new equipment is phased in. The surplus of motive power means you can double them up on the remaining bilevel-equipped express trains.
Not only does that mean you can save cost on new electric locomotives, but it would achieve superior performance: the Vectron produces 7000HP, 8600HP in its short-term "boost" mode, and 67000lbf max tractive effort, while each of GO's MP40PH-3Cs produces 4000HP and 85000lbf max tractive effort, and having two locomotives means that power is spread out across double the number of axles, improving acceleration in adverse weather and reducing wear on the track. It also allows you to run with a locomotive at each end, which reduces the acceleration forces passengers experience and makes grade crossing incidents safer for people on the train - a locomotive is much heavier than a cab car/DVT, and the driver sits higher up, so they're better-protected and there's less chance of a derailment.
There would be some bad optics to using diesel under wire, but I can't imagine the idea of buying electric locomotives to use for just a decade or so before retiring them would be seen as anything but wasteful.
Here in Dresden (Germany), we actually have the only S-Bahn system that still uses locomautive hauled bilevel trains. I think you showed them in the previous video about the GO-expansion.
I was looking for that comment :)
I think the comment about "major" German systems was meant to address that. Dresden is a nice city, but with the frequencies and speeds there, it barely qualifies as an S-Bahn service.
@@dda40x You should tell that DB.
As always, this is quite an interesting essay/video! Thanks for making this!
Transit in Toronto and Canada is a joke. Takes 1 hour and 30 minutes to go from Yorkdale Mall (major mall/centre in the city) to Scarborough (still in the city of Toronto). I’m from Vancouver but it’s the same thing here, good luck going from Richmond to Surrey or Coquitlam to Surrey. Never mind the lack of commuter rail to the further suburbs. They think everyone lives in the city of Vancouver and is going to and from Downtown.
GO is stuck in between either going for frequency or renewing their outdated cars (more expensive). Its managed to slowly yet strategically make its service better so that people *think* its getting better and they seem to be overly obsessed with making sure they make no mistakes in the limited budget they're given whilst also ensuring they're proving "results"
They seem to be going with the idea that people are more satisfied with smaller improvements every year or two than one big improvement.
GO has a huge budget for improvements, but "GO" isn't really in control - Metrolinx is
I love to see that you refer to trains in my hometown Stockholm 😊
Prague runs its suburban S-lines with the class 471 "CityElefant" double-decker EMUs and they are absolutely perfect for these lines. (more accurately Czech Railways operate them on behalf of Prague Integrated Transport)
And part of S7 lines are operated by push-pull units from 2 or 3 double decker cars, class 163 locos nad driving car. and one set with two dd cars and 2 locos for some reason.
All your points make sense and it wild to me that Toronto doesn’t have Emus yet. The little kid in me who grew up riding the go trains is like “but I get to sit on the top floor of the train”😡🥺
Indian Mainline trains are loco pulled (and sometimes pushed). The network is now nearly 100% electrified. I would love if you could do a video on it
Propagandists never rest! 🤦🤣
What’s so surprising about the fact that Australia has emus?
Haha, clever
I honestly got to say, go trains already accelerate pretty quickly even as diesel trains, so I'm not that upset by the decision to go with electric locomotives over EMUs, the bi level coaches are also already in good condition for the service they run, the only real change they need would be the use of Salt Lake City style level boarding.
All this from a guy who rides the Go Train fairly regularly from Oakville to Toronto
I have measured the acceleration of GO trains and the fastest I've observed is 0-100 km/h in 77 seconds, with a 6-car train. 10 car traind take over 90 seconds and 12 car trains take nearly two minutes. In the Netherlands, EMUs typically take about 35 seconds to get from 0 to 100.
They aren't quick! I think its worth going and looking up the stats for other trains as @ontariotrafficman has done!
Emu facts: The emu is the second largest living bird. Its height averages 5.7 feet (1.75 meters). Males weigh 110 to 121 pounds (50 to 55 kilograms), and females weigh about 11 pounds (5 kilograms) more than males. Emus are a member of the Casuariidae family, meaning they are closely related to cassowaries! Their necks and legs are long, but their wings are tiny, reduced to less than 8 inches (20 centimeters). After molting, the birds are dark, but sunlight fades the feathers and they become paler at the end of the season. The emu's range covers most of the Australian mainland, but the Tasmanian, Kangaroo Island and King Island subspecies became extinct after the European settlement of Australia in 1788
Emus have very strong legs which allow them to defend themselves from dingoes, one of their main predators. They can leap quickly (they can jump up to two meters) to remove their neck from the predator's reach, and they can kick with a lethal strength. They can also travel long distances at a fast trot and can sprint at 30 miles (48 kilometers) per hour for quite a distance. They were the subject of the infamous Emu War when during the Great Depression, they invaded the farms of struggling WWI veterans in search for food and water. An attempt to drive them off was mounted, with the army called in. While a number of the birds were killed, the emu population persisted and continued to cause crop destruction.
Thats exactly what im telling Gwinnett Transit in Georgia. They should buy the old cars from Marta (Metro Atlanta Rapid Transit Authority) and build their own lines, but they wont listen to me.
as a native torontonian whos moved to NZ this year, appreciate the shoutout lol.
Finally a Wellington mention! I'm really hoping you will make a video about our system one day, I can help you out with that 😁
Also plenty of trains can’t move to EMUs because not every line will be electrified (Milton) so just move old cars to those lines to increase capacity
The absolute shock of seeing my local station on the thumbnail for a RMtransit video!
A shock, but a welcome one to be sure.
A good train at a good station
Deutsche Bahn has quite a lot of experience with trains that are pulled by (electronic) locomotives. They use this configuration a lot on regional trains (Regionalbahn and Regionalexpress) which in some regions kind of act like an S-Bahn. And they're mostly bi-level passenger cars. The train connecting the airport in Berlin to the city center is one example.
a lot of experience yes but mainly because having a locomotive was the way to go for uite a while.
Deutsche Bahn is actually sort of phasing out those regional locomotive trains.
Simens desiro, stadler kiss or the bombardier twindexx are the common replacements which are bilevel EMUs. Or at least can be the bilevel part is optional on the desiro and the EMU part is optional on the twindexx which is kind of a hybrid anyways.
Still electric locomotives is not the modern standard anymore but since most of the rolling stock isn't 50 years old it takes some time to replace them.
So yeah, there would even be emu bilevel alternatives if they absolutely want to stick with the bilevel design.
Well thought out piece. Makes sense to me. Too bad none of the politicians that could effect change will ever see/hear your ideas or have the stones to break against the status quo. ☹️
Make sure that no matter the stock, ensure the GO system is completely isolated and won’t share rail corridors with other rail traffic. The SL commuter rail system in Stockholm isn’t and creates severe headaches for commuters, particularly during the winter
It isn't and likely never will be. But there is lots of capacity so that should be fine
The planned future decommissioning of the DPZs of the S-Bahn Zurich is not due to the performance (with one locomotive per 3 cars no problem anyway) but due to its age and lack of accessibility. However, they are still in good shape and extremely reliable. The reason for the low frequency is not the vehicles but the fact that the tracks are all at their capacity limits, remember: many lines are still single-track.
In Montreal, it's go up and not long. You save on platform space and infrastructure in emerging regions. The BiLevel or the MultiLevel, I forget which, will load from ground or platform.
Montreal had planned on using BiMode DEMU's on Deux-Montagnes, but REM sorted that out and not worrying about carrying diesel into the M-R tunnel.
Train-type separation may be what pushes railroad wagons onto HFR inter-regional transport.
Stockholm mentioned AND shown ‼️‼️‼️‼️‼️
Great video! Let's put a stop to the austerity theatre!
I agree, we should have a good train ;)
Someone needs to show this video to Keolis, the operator of Boston's commuter rail lines. They steadfastly refuse to move away from diesel locomotives in spite of all the problems they cause.
4:38 Vienna also, big time! On the high frequency trunk line. But our next round double deckers are going to be Stadler Kiss like everywhere else...
Yes, please do a video commenting on the status of level boarding
So would EMUs mean getting single level trains like the Toronto subway or still sticking with double decker? And would it maybe make sense to automate it if it is just going to be another subway?
Well thought out and invaluably informative. You should be talking to city Council and the province because everything you said makes absolute sense, and I don’t know why Metrolinx didn’t even consider it from the get-go.
because if you buy 1 train now, and one train later........EVERYONE is happy (everyone means the maker, metrolinx, politicians, intermediaries, contractors ------well, even the users (because they see "constant" improvement). As long as taxes keep going up, or inflation pays for everything; WE, the idiots, are happy...?
For transit and suburban rail with relatively close station spacing and of course if significant grades are involved, MUs are the way to go, at one time using unpowered (and a lot cheaper) trailer cars were quite common (in NYC almost half the trains were trailers, what might surprise is that locals that did way more stops than the express trains, had a lower number of trailers since the issue isn't one of power as much as motor heating since the motors work both to accelerate the train out of the stop but also for dynamic braking when coming to the next stop). It seem like all of the newer trains on both the NY subway and the LIRR are all power cars. For less dense suburban railways and regional trains, using locomotives is cost efficient. I know that some folks thinks this slows things down but often the ability to accelerate and brake the train exceeds the ability of riders to stand up. This slowness is often reinforced by systems that simple don't use enough head end HP, old GP freight diesels often could drag long trains but were slow to accelerate. I remember this was common on the LIRR main line and made worse later on when they used old MUs with motors removed to replace older rolling stock, the MUs needed electricity from somewhere to power lights, heat, and AC, so they use several worn out locomotives with rebuilt diesel gensets to do this, these could also function as cab units rather than buying expensive cab cars, these added over 100 tons to the train without adding to the push. This was a double benefit to the LIRR in that it has a lot of grade crossings and locomotives are way better at wacking trucks than cab cars, I try to avoid riding in cab cars myself as I've seen what can happen. A push pull operation with locomotives at each end will in most cases provide enough acceleration to meet any need and protect the train in case of accident. Note that this is the arrangement that Brightline uses in Florida. Both diesel and electric locomotives are designed to be easy to service and have very long service lives, not so true for MU cars especially newer ones, cramming motors, switchgear(electronics), braking equipment, and AC units under the car gets rather crowded and makes maintenance a headache, remember each MU car is in effect a not so little locomotive, developing upwards of a thousand HP during acceleration (not a continuous duty rating).
Like a giant shipping container, a bi-level bombardier train car would be perfect for turning into a house or cabin. That's definitely a good way of repurposing them.
I’m part of the 0,5% of people who watch your videos from New Zealand ahah 🙋🏻♂️ Originally from Canada though and I miss Montreal’s metro and REM so much 😩. Public transportation in New Zealand is so bad, it’s insane.
10:00 didn’t realize GO brought it trains to Ottawa.
Bi-level cars could be easily phased out progressively and redeployed on longer distance services which are less frequent for the most recent models.
Part of the MU fleet could also be dual mode as you suggested. However complete electrification should also be though of, especially on these type of suburban services.
What could be possible is:
- Phase one : EMUs for the 100% electrified routes, push pulled with the most recent sets elsewhere.
- Phase 2 : electrification extension, new EMU order, final withdrawal of push pulled services
Like this you avoid to withdraw trains prematurely while getting the most benefits for the main routes.
Well maybe, but again the bilevels are so old. A lot of them probably should just be retired.
I think that GO would very much benenfit from more express options. by that i mean, from the first station that maybe stops 2 or 3 times, then thats it. When go is actually.. going, it actually goes at a decent speed. bUt it stops so often
Belgium's NMBS also has a ton of bi level bombardier coaches and have many more on order. they seem to work quite well over there with electiric loco's. they absolutely should have single level EMU's to allow more frequency and less waste running massive 12 car double deckers and open up those extra routes.
Take the bi level to run more rural northern line or sell it to Translink to run more west coast express possibly can better utilize the old fleets.
Lots of options!
5:01 This is not quite true, as DB does operate the S-Bahn Dresden, which since its inception has used locomotive hauled bilevel cars and continues to do so to this day. Although the trains are way shorter than in Toronto, sometimes only having two cars, which mitigates the worse acceleration of loco hauled trains.
I guess you could make the argument that Dresden is not a "major" S-Bahn system, but it's an S-Bahn nontheless.
Additionally he forgot to mention the S-bahn Rhein-Main, which is undoubtedly much more impressive and important than the S-bahn Stuttgart.
@@Thomasmuller2309But they did not use(d) bilevel cars 🤔?
The Nuremberg S-Bahn used locomotive trains as well.
@@sea75300 So doesn’t Stuttgart. I’m referring to the list at 5:09.
Dresden is pretty minor, I didn't mention other major networks that I hadn't yet covered
Now that you mentioned the x60, do you have any plans to make a video on Stockholms commuter/light rail network? Like the video you made on Copenhagen for example
The new S-Bahn trains for Munich look amazing would be smart if Toronto actually looked at what kind of train and constellation the network requires and got a bunch of train manufacturers to bid to come up with a perfect train model
Got to ride the Thameslink trains recently and they’re also a perfect fit for the uk network but you could even just use kiss / flirts or desiro ml / mireos since they also have to navigate Austria and/or Switzerland which get lots of snow just like Canada
Bowmanville extension video mentioned 🔥🔥🔥
I was at Aurora on the Barrie line today; I hope this was a wakeup call for metrolinx to go with EMUs. We just had a failure of a locomotive that wrecked the schedule today, especially since there's only one track right now.
Is there anything stopping them from phasing in EMUs? Can electric locos and EMUs coexist? If sticker shock is the biggest problem could they introduce the better technology in bits to justify any increase in cost they're afraid of?
I agree. If the tracks are upgraded and electrified, EMUs can be phased in over time.
Yes, they can coexist and they do that all over the world. Any train can coexist with others as long as they support the existing infrastructure (gauge, signaling, height and other infrastructure restrictions) although major speeds difference slow down the faster trains.
That said, they are not "the better technology". They do have advantages, mentioned in this video, but also disadvantages, like fixed less flexible length (there are a few that has some flexibility) so you cannot adjust the length depending on changing demand and a malfunction means the whole unit is out of service, with a loco howled train you can easily replace any car, and the loco itself.
They should start with ALP-45DPs the same dual-mode locomotives that NJ transit uses
@@IndustrialParrot2816and Exo in Montreal
@@AL5520 EMUs are much easier to reconfigure throughout the day than a locomotive. You can decouple trains outside of peak periods without the need to discuss shunting in a yard.
Can you make a Montreal version of transit solution needs
It amuses me to see that train CRAWLING along that bendy viaduct near the airport - here in Sydney the track between Waverton and Wollstonecraft is a 200m radius S-bend with a 50kph speed limit. It makes a rather loud screeching noise which I can't imagine is great for the wheels or the rails! (Or the residents!)
Can you please make a video on the latest update on Eglinton crosstown lrt, Eglinton lrt extention and Finch west lrt?
Even though an Emu isn’t as fast as an ostrich, I prefer them.😀
(Silly comment to feed the algorithm.)
By the way, the last scene with the white S-Bahn train running into the station is in Stuttgart, not Munich as indicated in the top left corner
An extension through the airport to Brampton and Kitchener? The track the UP Express runs on, from Union, almost to the airport, already goes there and beyond to London.
Walked past 10 trams stacked nose to tail last night on King street. Easily outpacing them all over a 6 block walk. Walking back home on Adelaide I watched City crews ay ing down even more rails on the parallel East/West street. It seems like madness.
Only 10?
If they want to retain some Bilevel trains they should buy the Siemens Desiro HC EMUs which are combination single and double deck train with better accessibility in the single deck sections and more seats in the double decker sections
A lot of these videos seem too high level and hand wavy regarding costs. Changing the trains means updating maintenance facilities, switching supply chains, retraining staff etc. Sticking with the existing trains is a smart iterative approach that reduces risk.
This is why the TTC tends to replace the streetcar fleet in one shot. It isn't long from when the first of the new appears until the last of the old is gone.
The issue is that you will say its too hand wavy, but someone else will comment that something is too technical.
Re. costs I think these issues should mostly be dismissed (and I did address some like maintenance facilities). Again Ontario is spending a *ton* on the project, the cost of new trains would be minor, and issues like retraining staff are going to be happening anyways. Supply chain is already up in the air because we are already moving to new equipment!
@@RMTransit In the video you mention new trains would cost $4 billion. This cost should be dismissed because we're already spending $10 billion on GO Transit upgrades? I'm not sure I follow this argument... an additional 40% is not negligible.
I'm curious your thoughts on how these trains would move the needle on daily ridership?
We need you to be the transport minister!
I don't think the fate of GO's bilevel fleet should be decided solely by the age of the oldest cars. EMUs should definitely be GO's long-term plan, but in the shorter (medium?) term there's nothing wrong with getting the purchased value out of your diesel-hauled trains until the equipment ages out, especially as you pointed out in your last video that effective upgrades can maintain a high standard of passenger experience even with old stock.
Also worth considering is that any manufacturer is not going to fill even a partial bilevel replacement order of EMUs instantly. MTA, for example, took delivery of their M8s from Kawasaki over the course of about 5.5 years, and that was for a total of 471 cars (223 married pairs, 25 trailers) - not even half what GO would need to fully-replace their bilevels. As you said, unlike CalTrain GO doesn't have the space to just park new EMUs somewhere until they have achieved "critical mass" and can replace an entire line's worth of diesel trains with them at once, so there needs to be a transition plan for the years - maybe decades - it will take to fully phase-in EMUs.
Another commenter suggested that EMUs can take over stopping diagrams first, where their acceleration, larger doors, and better layout would be very welcome upgrades, while express services can make use of the remaining bilevel stock. I think that's the best solution for the coaches, but I will also add that GO could use up the remaining useful life of the diesels that still have them (the newer MP40s and MP54s, not the F59s) this way too by doubling them up on the remaining bilevel express trains. Sure, diesels under wire is never good optics, but if you're only keeping the bilevels around for only another decade-ish, then the purchase cost of new electric locomotives is much harder to justify.
Totally agree with your assessment, Toronto always seems to be penny wise but pound foolish.
I think a compromise is to keep the younger bi-levels for express and regional routes and buy higher standing capacity EMUs for the local routes.
One factor that affected the design of the GO trains is they run over track that was used by traditional passenger and freight trains. This meant using ground level doors, instead of raised platforms. Also, the UP express had to fit into an existing built up area, which is what forced the tight curves. While you generally have a good series of videos, you seem to be lacking in background, as to why things were done. I have been interested in transit, particularly rail, since I was a kid and am now almost 70. I also used to work for CN and I commuted on GO for most of the years between 1973 and 1995, and so have experienced much of it's evolution. The 2.5 years in the mid 70s, when I wasn't commuting on GO, I was frequently on CN passenger and freight trains, as part of my work.
The ‘why’ of tight curves is often because of penny pinching rather than necessity. The Bowmanville extension was meant to avoid tight curves by building a rail bridge over the 401 and bypassing the current Oshawa station. But the Ontario government chickened out after a while and locked us into using a rickety existing freight bridge over the 401, necessitating tight bends and a doomed slow service into Oshawa Central and beyond.
@@davidcook8065 I'm not familiar with that extension, as I live in Mississauga. However, I used to work near the airport and know how built up the area is. Also, the CN track the UP Express uses has been there for a long time and it dictated much of the connection to the airport. It's one thing to have a "green field" solution and another to have to deal with the real world. But yeah, penny pinching often causes problems. One I'm aware of involves the Hurontario LRT. There was supposed to be a loop around Square One, which would bring it near City Hall, the main library branch, the YMCA and several office and condo buildings. It would have been the busiest stretch of the line. Yet the Ford government killed it. Another thing they did was cut the extension to the Cooksville GO station platform across Hurontario, which would have made for a better connection between the LRT and GO train. They did that despite the huge job of replacing the old bridge and adding 2 more tracks in the process, which made the extension a trivial cost. To do it later, will be a lot more expensive. As is, they'll be building a 2nd bridge, put tracks on it, demolish the old bridge and build the new one, with tracks, leaving 4 tracks where there had been 2 and 2 bridges where there had been one. Compared to that, the platform extension would have cost next to nothing.
@@James_Knott All too familiar a tale it seems.
9:29 As a Swiss it kinda bugged me, but Stadler is pronounced "Shtadler", even in other languages (or at least in English, French and Italian)
10:20 Same for Stuttgart, every time you have a ST in German it's "SHT"
He's speaking English, not German. I don't get mad at people who say "Toronto" differently from how we say it in "tronno" because I understand that people from different places have different accents.
@@OntarioTrafficMan Also: Einstein. Most English speakers say the name _almost_ like in German except they don't pronounce the "st" as "sht".
@@OntarioTrafficMan Of course not, but it doesn't mean you can't pronounce it correctly once you know the right way. I've always said "Toronto" until I went there and learned you don't pronounce the T. People weren't mad at me, they just explained, as I was doing right now.
Also I think there is a broader issue about English vs the rest of the world here, since if I mispronounce loaned English words in French or German, like "Week-end" or even "Boeing" if we're staying on companies' names, ppl will laugh at me or think I'm dumb, but for some reason an English speaker mispronouncing something gets a pass. I think it's better to politely teach each other instead of laughing at them or dismissing them because "we speak English here, okay?!"
Last month, I took the UP EXPRESS to union for the first time, and I was surprised that it was diesel when I heard it moving, and it wasn't electric as I thought it should
Why would you think it's electric since no mainline trains in Canada are electric??
@@TheTroyc1982 bc the trains themselves looked like it was powered by 3rd rail or overhead wires. Bc that should be how trains get power eventually
Riding Electric trains gives me satisfaction especially when I think of air rail link
With the level boarding problem - the current bi-levels have steps down to a low platform, and toronto wants to buy single level EMUs with high floors (for more space inside due to no wheel arches) and level boading. Couldn't Toronto transit place some steps up on the platforms and have the new single level EMUs line up with these until the old bi levels are retired and the platforms can be raised a bit?
Most of the regional trains I've seen in my life are multiple units and the only locomotive hauled trains I've seen in general are either the old intercity or doubledeckers trains, both of which are more or less justified (one for the economy of scale for constant travel, the latter because of the space requirement for the motors) and even the latter get more and more replaced into hybrids i.e. powered cabs in an otherwise modular train. On top of that, the only *diesel* locomotive hauled passenger train I've seen is the Frankfurt to Stockheim one (also a doubledecker) while your average unelectrified line is served by railcars and twin units like LINT, Desiro and Talents instead for their lower service and passenger count.
On that aside, I also feel like that GO should make not all the trains serve the heart of Toronto either with some of them bypassing Union Station, thus making it less overcrowded while still providing some good service on the branches (and these are good candidates for shorter trains as well).
Actually there are lots of issues in regards to electrical trains in Toronto and also in Ontario. The Toronto subway system was built largely between the 1950 - 1970 then nothing was built except the shepherd stump until the extension to York U which opened about 4-5 years ago. Since nothing got built the province ended up creating metrolink to take over and finally public transit is being built( with some conversely but things are getting done) The whole Eglington line is still being built but it is a much needed improvement. The problem with creating electric lines in Ontario is that often there is very few lines places that can actually accommodate the lines, since the existing rail lines run through various cities and towns and have level crossings. The only way you could actually get a fast rail connection between London and Toronto would be to use the north line which goes through Kitchener.
Great video! Have you presented your arguments to Metrolinx, the ministry of transport, or your MPP? I would be curious to hear their response.
One thing that I find frustrating with the current Go network, and the upgrades underway, is the lack of interconnectivity between the lines. When there is a track shutdown for whatever reason, most of the line is shutdown causing chaos for train users. There should be interconnections between lines so that trains can easily bypass issues.
The province should also be laying down new train tracks next to new highway construction, such as the 401 expansion between the GTA and Kitchener, or the planned highway 413.
I thought about emus but didn't expect the actual mention lol
You should do a video on the level boarding progress for the GO Network
14:56 The Stockholm train reminds me of the „Talent 2“.
Please do make a video on level boarding
Before migrating to Canada 20 years ago, I thought of Canada as an advanced country. CN Tower, The Dome - all that stuff. 20 years since my landing the country still basically is on the same level - not sure if not even lower. Nothing significant has been built, Internet and cellphone services are the most expensive in the world, housing crisis... But what drives my mind crazy: we are in the list of the only two developed countries who still use diesel passenger trains. But they already announce stops on busses and street cars, and TTC fleet is updated. Finally. Not on Subway Line 2 though. But I still, same as on my first day in TTC Subway hear the announcements in the Subway: Sorry for the inconvenience... I've been in many subways in many cities, having more that two subway lines. I visited China and was in an awe: in 30 years they became technically and technologically one of the top. I was on MagLev train and travelled on Bullet train from Shanghai to Beijing ...
Is there any way to promote this cause by reaching out to MPPs or anything along those lines? Great vid btw!
I would love a video on level boarding! Via Rail desperately needs it at union and other intermediate stations. It's wild that they only have it in Montreal and ONE platform in Ottawa. Not only is it safer and more convenient for passengers, but injury rates among employees would plummet.
While I don't have access to UP Express passenger data, I would hazard a guess that it's more useful as a way to get downtown from Weston or Bloor/Dundas than an airport shuttle. Given that I never see the original 3 car consist passing by, my impression is that it's not considered a good airport/downtown mode of travel. An airport limo will get you right to your destination door. Would love to see EMUs on Go and Via Rail but will likely pass away from old age before anything like that could occur.
According to Demographia, the GTHA’s urban density is 2900/km2 while Berlin sits as 3100/km2. Not a huge difference. So even less argument to use a different system in Toronto vs Berlin.
10:02. Lots of GO Trains in... Ottawa?? Back around 1992 when LRC trains had to be taken out of service for technical faults, VIA substituted GO bilevels on the corridor, and likely to Ottawa to.
Accident!
I was one of the first passengers on the LRC. Shortly before it went into service, they had an excursion for CN employees, from Union to Oshawa and back.
15:50 An S-Bahn train in the distinctive new Stuttgart S-Bahn livery pulling into a station (probably Osterfeld) while the caption says "Munich"
Österfeld. S2 to Filderstadt. In the background the STEP Areal right next to the nord-süd Straße. So. Yes. Stuttgart.
Yes, my mistake. The trains are quite similar to the Class 42X which obviously operate in both so my mind just went to the more recent video I was making - on Stuttgart.
@@RMTransit They are 423, used in Stuttgart, Munich, Frankfurt and Cologne (and use the same front as the 424 used by the Hanover S-Bahn), but the new Stuttgart livery is rather distinctive
When GO trains first started, back in 1967, they had diesel multiple unit trains, though they didn't last long. Also, there's not a single bi-level GO train car that's been around 50 years. Back then, they had the original single level cars, including DMU. They experimented with bi-level cars, borrowed from Chicago. I don't recall when this happened, other than it was after 1981, when I moved from Scarborough to Mississauga. BTW, one great advantage to the bi-level cars is they banned smoking on GO trains. Prior to that, with the single level cars, one end was smoking and the other end was non-smoking, but that didn't stop the smoke from poisoning the entire car! I also had an experience with one woman who claimed that since the smoking section was full, she had a right to smoke in the non-smoking end. I soon set her straight. I first rode on aGO train in 1967 and commuted on them for many years, on both single level and bi-level trains.
There are still first generation bi-level cars made in the latter half of the 1970s, more so pushing 50 than are 50 years old
@@TheRandCrews I met my wife on a single level car in Oct. 1978.
This. This needs to be read by the folks putting together the Regional Express Rail service plan. The bi-levels and locomotives have been legendary - they are to this date the greatest suburban commuter rail network in North America.
They can be used as a patch for a time when there’s 15-20 minute all day service on all the lines, but it’s got to go in the long term. They need to upgrade the network in such a way where electric locomotives and EMUs can run for a time together. I don’t know if this is even possible? Or I guess having a dedicated EMU line, like a Brampton-Pearson-Kitchener line
I had a discussion with some people in the Discord server, and someone mentioned that on an EMU system, it's not necessary for every unit to be providing power. Could it be possible to buy EMUs to replace every 50+ year old Bilevel and simply attach them where the old Bilevels would have gone on a typical GO train?
I suppose so. Over here Bombardier (now Alstom) created the Twindexx Vario platform that did exactly this: They provided new powered cars and those could be attached to existing bi-level cars (to be fair in reality it is mostly all-new cars, but still). The downside to this concept was that the existing cars do not allow any form of high-voltage power transmission, meaning each new EMU-style car had to come with its own pantograph. Depending on the condition of overhead wires this could potentially cause issues.
god i love trains
The GO train yard at 10:01 is still labelled Ottawa! I dont think OC Transpo has the budget for that
Actually, ÖBB, the Austrian national rail operator uses electric locomotive push/pulled bilevel trains (ÖBB Dosto) for regional express trains. These drive through onto the Vienna S-Bahn system and stop at every station. And the S-Bahnn has a frequency of up to 2,5 minutes/train. However these units are planned to get a replacement soon in form of EMU's.
Also, these Trains only run on each of their lines about every hour or sometimes half-hourly, and sometimes even those courses get run by Desiro ML or even still the 4020. What GO is doing is like operating all S-Bahn-Trains with DoStos, which is far from the reality here. And indeed, the'll get replaced soon.
Actually, it‘s less than every 3 minutes and that includes both S-Bahn and REX. That‘s considerably less than most other S-Bahn trunk lines in the German-speaking region (even Zürich!) and partially due to the fact that these sets are loco-hauled. 2,5 Minutes is the proposed goal once the new EMUs are deployed and ETCS has been installed. I‘d be really impressed if that works reliably though, since dwell times usually aren‘t great with low-level platforms and double-deck trains.
@@CityNaturePig Yeah, but if it's possible to run them mixed with EMU's in Vienna up to every 3 minutes, it should be possible to run only such trains every 5-7.5 minutes
Locomotive hauled trains work fine for regional express services, the problem is that GO also wants to use them on the local services within the city.
Key phrase:
"However these units are planned to get a replacement soon in form of EMU's."
What this actually makes me wonder about, is electric locos or DMUs? If you can only afford either electrification or new units, which would you choose, and why?
Double decker wagons and locos can absolutely work in high frequency services.
Zürich and Vienna are prime examples for it. While both are set to rpelace them with EMUs (Stadler Kiss in the case of Austria) the current ones work just as well.
Except they don‘t. Zürich only manages to run a high frequency service because they have multiple sets of platforms at each station in order to bridge the ridiculously long dwell times (and it‘s still not anywhere near the frequency of Frankfurt or even Munich). Vienna runs a total of 18 trains/hr with most of those actually being single deck EMUs. In both cases getting rid of loco-hauled trains is currently #1 priority in order to increase frequency. In Zürich there are even plans to phase-out some double-deck trains in favor of single-deck ones because that would allow for a further increase in capacity and frequency (S-Bahn 2G).
@@ft4709 Vienna has 28 trains an hour on the "Stammstrecke". Loco pulled double deckers aren't the issue here. Overall capacity on the line is the limiting factor in this case.
@@toaster98 Correct, overall capacity is the limiting factor. And said capacity is determined by a mix of signaling, service pattern, choice of rolling-stock and dwell times. So no, loco-hauled trains with poor acceleration and long dwell times are most definitely the biggest issue here. Otherwise I guess ÖBB and SBB are just scamming legislators, or why are they themselves claiming they need to replace rolling stock in order to increase frequency?
I don't know where you found that number of 28 trains per hour but it's definitely wrong. During peak hours Wien Mitte station sees 38 departures in all directions (yes, including S-Bahn, REX and CAT). That's a total of 19 trains per hour per direction. Proper S-Bahn-systems with EMUs manage 24 (48 respectively) even with conventional signaling. Feel free to explain why that is, considering the choice of rolling-stock is the only discernible difference here.
@@ft4709 28 is in fact correct.
Source: I work there...
Locos are prefectly capable of keeping up with the EMUs there without holding up the rest of the system.
Greetings of the day from the 0.5
It's also worth pointing out, that the Zürich S-bahn locomotive hauled trains use one locomotive per three passenger cars. So decent acceleration is still granted.
I was going to, but this would also probably be the case in Toronto
You are so right about the Union Pearson Express. I took my first ride on it yesterday and the first 5 to 10 minutes weren't that "expressy" and the whole thing made it feel like i was travelling in an older longer bus with a loud diesel engine. I genuinely wasnt expecting it to be a diesel engine powered as I got in. It was unfortunately pathetic for the money you pay for "express" travel
I agree. the up express is almost 15$. they can do better.
I would be really interested in a emissions LCA of the steel used per km of electrified track vs diesel consumed. On a low use track it might favor diesel for a long time.
Heck, batteries might be the best option. But you must also consider the last mile issue. If you have a 500km mainline with wires, electrifying the 10km branch might make sense even if the branch can't justify it alone. If you need to run a diesel train under wires or bring a battery along for the last stretch, you're losing out on a lot.
or hydrogen
This seems like a waste of effort, electric rail is offseting hugely emitting alternatives. It's a big win for the climate.
A video about why we need to replace our GO fleet bc they’re old and the costs are marginal a week after a video about why we don’t need to replace line 2 trains cus old trains are fine and it’s expensive is wild. I’m hopeful as soon as GO runs out of coaches once they switch to electric locos (shouldn’t take long given the service increase) they will order EMUs for future train sets (current contract is only for new locos no new bilevels). It would cost billions and take many more years to entirely replace our fleet with electrification instead of slowly phasing in EMUs as we need the capacity. Don’t forget GO will still be running plenty of diesel services with locos, I doubt we’ll have enough bilevels for all of this service in the coming years.
What makes line 2 different from go? Not really sure what rm's logic is going between both of these haha
Yes electric locomotives make sense as a starting point, but GO is planning to keep using them indefinitely, without making any plans to gradually add EMUs when the fleet gets expanded and olde BiLevel coaches get retired
@@cheef825The trains are much younger than the go trains, and aren’t locomotive hauled.
The T1s are 25ish years old, as highlighted early on in the video the Bilevels are much older?
At the soonest we will have a line electrified in 4ish years based on the timeline in SF, we need to get going with EMUs.
Part of the point as highlighted in the video is also having better technical standards for things like curves we can build to.
I do think that they should probably get new EMU trains in the future, but I don’t think that the use of locomotive hauled trains is as much of a barrier as you suggest it could be. They could always go to a push-pull model (though it would require more locomotives) in order to increase acceleration. So I think any new trains or increases to the fleet should be EMUs, but I don’t think it’s unviable to run the network with loco hauled trains, the reason why no other cities do it is just that when you replace trains EMUs make more sense, I don’t think it means that loco hauled trains are far and away much worse