Personally I prefer using Xorg with no compositors because Wayland forces compositing which can increase overhead and increase input latency compared to using Xorg with no compositors (Xorg with no compositors faster than Wayland) And I dont have to play games at Fullscreen when using Xorg with no compositors since im already using no compositors
This is (sort of) outdated information, Wayland now has the "tearing" protocol, which should remedy those problems, only thing is Gnome doesn't support it yet, but a lot of other desktops and compositors already do...
Very cool that they switched to wayland. They finally solved the tearing situation. That being said, one thing is gpu opengl acceleration, that was always there on chromium/firefox. What isn't is media decoding acceleration. Rpi5 announcement was clear, it only decodes h265, and outside the browser so far. So, youtube will never be hw accelerated for media decoding since it uses h264,vp9 and av1, which aren't supported on rpi5 at all. They will always run on software decoding. Other sbcs like the radxa zero 2 also does not have media dec acceleration due to lack of drivers, but they have the hw for doing so.
Thanks for the informative comment. While watching the video I was thoroughly disappointed in the CZcams playback demonstration; good to have some context for why it's so poor at least.
The new Pi Os rocks and just highlights why you buy a Raspberry Pi , support !!!!!! My first gen Pi4 now runs just over 100 MGHz higher , cooler and rock solid no random crashes... My Pi3 B+ runs harder on cpu , gpu , core and mem .... The Pi3 B+is far quicker and far more usable although mousepad seems to have a problem starting up quickly , I found Pluma does not... The Plank dock works 32 bit system on the Pi3 B+ but not on the Pi4 64 bit system .. The one thing that is missing at the moment from the menu is the Themes option under Preferences... You can however install the KDE desktop and ever thing works great... !!!!!!! Well done Raspberry Pi Foundation.... !!!!!!!
Havent seen any performance improvements on a Pi 4b with a fresh Bookworm install and the Wayland desktop...still sluggish AF...thanks for the vid Don!
@@1st-1ast yea was using a "fast" SD card so I may try it on one my faster usb3 sticks to see if there is any improvement...my Samsung T7 is currently occupied by an Odroid M1 that doesn't like nvme drives lol
Nice video thanks. I heard BookWorm changed the way you manage and run python projects, in that you have to do everything in virtual environments, or is that not true?
Had loads of problems with Wayland and second monitor. Has got better but still lose controls, especially in Firefox. Maximizing the window fixes it but I often want it windowed.
My Raspberry pi Bookworm OS keeps breaking. Every now and again it gets stuck in the auto login boot/command screen and won't boot to desktop?? One time I managed to get in but it defaulted to the Debian desktop. My GUI gets all screwed up like internet browsers go funky colors all loses the top part of the window.
I can't find any distro for Raspberries that Mission Center will produce graphs. I have been told Mission Center is written in Rust. MC claims it can't get GL context.
nice content, just curious, can i install android studio on raspeberry pi 4 or 5, does it support this? also another curiosity i saw your another video installing android os 13, and i want to know which very cheapeast 14 inch display touchscreen does it support since i will be using android os and i will be using touch screen😊 and let say my budget is 200-300 us dollar, can i get this stuff done within that budget
Thanks for a great review. Pis are getting closer to being worth what they cost. Right now Ebay is full of $50 x64 mini PCs running i5s and i7s. Spending more on a hobbyist toy would be foolish...unless you're the hobbyist lol
Well, as a ‘hobbyist’, I have 95% of my RPi’s running jobs that require GPIO and/or CSI/DSI connections. I have looked and looked for “$50 mini PC’s running i5s and i7s” that have both GPIO & CSI/DSI and nope, none found. So this ‘hobbyist’ will continue to be ‘foolish’ and run RPi. There simple fact is that I never saw (nor acquired ) the RPi as a “desk-top”. (BTW, my latest inventory of RPi show thirty-seven of them scattered around or embedded in my house, happily acquiring and analyzing signals 😊)
So VNC got even more stupid. I’m a radio amateur and I use Pi’s in the field. They broke VNC and Pulse Audio with the latest desktop for Pi4 and now they are breaking everything else. What used to be a great platform for shifting Linux applications to has become a convoluted mess. I have pretty much given up with Raspberry - I burn more time getting it to do what I want after the OS has been faffed about with (read “updated”) than using it. I can’t be bothered any more. I don’t need a f**king supercomputer, I just want a reliable Linux platform without bells and whistles that has been bought to market to piss against a wall of irrelevance against Rock and other vendors. The Pi had and has its place - it’s good at what it did. Going down the route of diverging from the original design brief is not what traditional users want. I dread to see the list of gotchas in the new chip that are going to percolate through user experiences. What used to be a dependable, low power, great design has just become another irrelevance. I give Pi 5 years at the max.😅
@@microlinux People keep on telling me Wayland is awesome. I have constant issues e.g. random lock-ups if I have more than a certain number of tabs open and I am using an AMD card on my main machine. Xorg continues to work fine.
@@dave7244sure, but your PC has a lot better gpu with far better mem bandwidth than an embedded system like arm linux SBC'S, that's why it's so important. Wayland compositor tend to reduce the memory bandwidth constraints and that's why the perform better, specially on our systems, not that much on x86_64 platforms like yours.
Does this has any effect on CZcams playback? On this new release I am seeing 500 dropped frames on a 17 minute 1080p video, but on (now) legacy Bullseye I am only seeing around 70 dropped frames for same video in Chromium...
for the menu bar, i usually find network throughput with upload /download more important than cpu gpu, yet it seems to be overlooked or lower priority. i hope it is included and without going through many hoops. that was one thing i liked about the previous menbar.
latest Pi 5 OS does not work with Nexdock laptop, OS is backward compatible with a Pi 4 , latest OS does work with PI 4 but does not work with 2 cable set up with both Pi's.
i'm curious if it can handle fedora silverblue. My RP4 got shelved when my sd card got corrupted it was running XBMC my issues was it can only output 4k 30. Now i'm running Minisforum UM250 ryzen 2500pro i used it mostly for movie streaming. I'm looking forward for RP5.
```While we have been using Wayland and PipeWire internally for nearly a year now, the sheer scale of the changes means that, in some specific usage scenarios, one or the other may cause problems. For this reason, the Advanced Settings menu in raspi-config includes options to re-enable the old X11/Openbox display system and PulseAudio```
It's like going in for surgery, and the anesthesiologist says, "We just got a new anesthesia that most people say works better than the old stuff. You'll get to try it out, and then you can tell us what you think after your surgery!"😞 This could be good, or it could be terribly painful.
Don did yo test this on the pi4?? I tried it on the pi4 with 8gb Getting the thunder bolt icon on the top menu bar... I am using the original power supply... The mouse works but the top menu is non responsive 🤬
Weird, because I never had tearing with X either. You might have had things configured wrong when it was still using it, but in the past 6 years I've not had tearing with any computer, even my Pi's.
KEY ISSUE: how to run vnc server for pi 4 / pi 400 ? The VNC server icon has gone, software is there and is installed but now matter what I try using raspi-config the icon does not appear in the taskbar even after switching back to X11 as it has been adviced by others. I can only connect to that new pi os whatever vnc server which is crap cause I need vnc connect to have access from remote. Terrible move I was not aware of. I hate all these changes called improvement which will end in a mess cause I have to work 2 days to get my systems back running - at least partially. 2 days lost with just this topic now for bookworm 2 days or more I had lost with bullseye removing WLAN support during update due configman or however that crap had been called. Pi has become a mess to deal with. And no, I need an upgrade path and not a full new install which would take far longer till I get the same system back just on a new version.
Here's a challenege for anyone interested: Is there any way to manually setup a dark theme/mode for the raspberry Bookworm (Wayland) OS? ... As someone who suffers serious eye-strain, I depend on dark themes/modes and cannot for the life of me find a solution to this, there must be a way, surely?....
Is this really Raspberry Pi 5? Its desktop performance looks terrible! Of course my Pi 4 with the new 5 OS and Wayland enabled sucks too. After so many years they are still not able to extract decent performance from these socs. Everything can be laggy even when CPU and GPU has some performance to spare. I wonder if the GPU is the culprit or the Arm support in the current Linux kernels?
I made a NAS with a Pi4B and a 18TB USB HDD. But I couldn't get any system monitor graphs or graphs from Mission Center. I have ordered a celeron based nuc, so I can get back to mainstream, and ditch the toy Raspberries and their immature/unstable linux distros. I've had enough of Arm junk. The new nuc has 4 3.2 usb ports, a 2.5 GB LAN, and an NVME SSD. I'll be able to run makeMKV directly on it, avoiding the time to copy movies over ethernet.
Thanks. I'll stick with the tried and true X11. I'm never that anxious to implement the newest thing if mine works for me. Plus, I liked confusing new admins by explaining why X servers run on the display machine, and what X clients were... ;-P
Ehhh.. wayland it's way faster than x11.. did you ever tried to run glmark2 and make comparisons. Probably you have a problem on your setup and wayland runs on software or so, bc wayland it's considerably faster.
@@microlinux I use light systems because I want what is best for my boards. Show me a side by side. Most apps are not ready for Wayland, Gnome isn't a great example because they want to be the Metro of the Linux world ( on UI for all ). I removed Gnome/Way of few SBC got better formance from them. I get great performance from XFCE with X11, when I have to bogged own with Gnome/Wayland and it killing board. Remember SBC using med to low in GPU, usually Mali Chipset, not a video call like NVidia/AMD, and they don't have memory for the graphics, it's shared. Wayland is great for those that better GPU/Memory.
@@terrorpup ohh, there are tons of different wayland compositor for lightweight operations. Labwc, wayfare (the one used here on rpi os).. in fact, I tested one that runs amazingly as kiosk, cage compositor. I run cage chromium-browser from tty, no desktop whatsoever, best performance ever, specially of you set chromium to use native wayland.
You are trying to run gnome wayland, a heavy desktop, not bc of wayland, but bc of gnome as a desktop environment... on a very low end sbc. That will not work great, on xorg or wayland.
@@microlinux I am sorry I can't follow what you are saying, please full English and not internet speak, I have no clue what bc means. I use what the board maker release, most only seem to know how to build an *buntu release with gnome and wayland, which is over kill for SBC. I been working on SBC for 12 years now, I am happy that Armbian has both *buntu and Debian.
I was wondering when Wayland would drop on the AArch side of things, this looks extremely promising.
Fantastic video.
This thing is underrated. Probably the XFCE alternative for Wayland I was looking for, for years
I have an old Raspberry Pi 1 b+ (file server) and had already more than a month Devuan Pi with SysVinit (fork of Debian 12 Bookworm).
_Translator:_
It's very poor that 1080p60 video doesn't run smoothly in 2023 👎
Personally I prefer using Xorg with no compositors because Wayland forces compositing which can increase overhead and increase input latency compared to using Xorg with no compositors (Xorg with no compositors faster than Wayland)
And I dont have to play games at Fullscreen when using Xorg with no compositors since im already using no compositors
This is (sort of) outdated information, Wayland now has the "tearing" protocol, which should remedy those problems, only thing is Gnome doesn't support it yet, but a lot of other desktops and compositors already do...
Can't wait for your Kodi and Ubuntu tests
Very cool that they switched to wayland. They finally solved the tearing situation. That being said, one thing is gpu opengl acceleration, that was always there on chromium/firefox. What isn't is media decoding acceleration. Rpi5 announcement was clear, it only decodes h265, and outside the browser so far. So, youtube will never be hw accelerated for media decoding since it uses h264,vp9 and av1, which aren't supported on rpi5 at all. They will always run on software decoding.
Other sbcs like the radxa zero 2 also does not have media dec acceleration due to lack of drivers, but they have the hw for doing so.
Thanks for the informative comment. While watching the video I was thoroughly disappointed in the CZcams playback demonstration; good to have some context for why it's so poor at least.
The new Pi Os rocks and just highlights why you buy a Raspberry Pi , support !!!!!!
My first gen Pi4 now runs just over 100 MGHz higher , cooler and rock solid no random crashes...
My Pi3 B+ runs harder on cpu , gpu , core and mem .... The Pi3 B+is far quicker and far more usable although mousepad seems to have a problem starting up quickly , I found Pluma does not...
The Plank dock works 32 bit system on the Pi3 B+ but not on the Pi4 64 bit system ..
The one thing that is missing at the moment from the menu is the Themes option under Preferences... You can however install the KDE desktop and ever thing works great...
!!!!!!! Well done Raspberry Pi Foundation.... !!!!!!!
Let's make a faster computer so whe can make it slower with visual candy.... 🙃
Said every tech company... Lol
Work with DOS and sh** up….
@@yorkan213swd6you censored the word shut? Lol
DOS doesn't support ARM. lol@@yorkan213swd6
The PI 5's are quick, really very good.
Havent seen any performance improvements on a Pi 4b with a fresh Bookworm install and the Wayland desktop...still sluggish AF...thanks for the vid Don!
For my hd I'm using ssd hd connected to rpi4(8gb) blue usb3 and I don't have slug with latest rpi Os bookworm/wayland build
@@1st-1ast yea was using a "fast" SD card so I may try it on one my faster usb3 sticks to see if there is any improvement...my Samsung T7 is currently occupied by an Odroid M1 that doesn't like nvme drives lol
Run an SSD
Nice video thanks. I heard BookWorm changed the way you manage and run python projects, in that you have to do everything in virtual environments, or is that not true?
Had loads of problems with Wayland and second monitor. Has got better but still lose controls, especially in Firefox. Maximizing the window fixes it but I often want it windowed.
they really stepped up, i dig it
Thanks for the update.
xrdp works with RaspianOS and is simpler to setup and configure than VNC. any windows system could connect using the RDP client
What's Windows
Thank you for sharing this information 👍
My Raspberry pi Bookworm OS keeps breaking. Every now and again it gets stuck in the auto login boot/command screen and won't boot to desktop?? One time I managed to get in but it defaulted to the Debian desktop. My GUI gets all screwed up like internet browsers go funky colors all loses the top part of the window.
I can't find any distro for Raspberries that Mission Center will produce graphs. I have been told Mission Center is written in Rust. MC claims it can't get GL context.
Guys, if yr tired of experimenting with wayland - especially if using a goodold Moto-lapdock - then just turn back to x11 in the raspi-config via ssh.
Love the wallpaper, is it included? Where can I get it?
yes it is included
Thanks Don.
nice content, just curious, can i install android studio on raspeberry pi 4 or 5, does it support this? also another curiosity i saw your another video installing android os 13, and i want to know which very cheapeast 14 inch display touchscreen does it support since i will be using android os and i will be using touch screen😊 and let say my budget is 200-300 us dollar, can i get this stuff done within that budget
Wayland Surprised Pikachu Face.
what about the things that don't work, like Plank or the winamp skins for audacious?
Are Netflix etc streaming services working with Firefox ?
No.
Thanks for a great review. Pis are getting closer to being worth what they cost. Right now Ebay is full of $50 x64 mini PCs running i5s and i7s. Spending more on a hobbyist toy would be foolish...unless you're the hobbyist lol
100% -- I ordered one just for collection purposes. I have all the versions.
Well, as a ‘hobbyist’, I have 95% of my RPi’s running jobs that require GPIO and/or CSI/DSI connections.
I have looked and looked for “$50 mini PC’s running i5s and i7s” that have both GPIO & CSI/DSI and nope, none found.
So this ‘hobbyist’ will continue to be ‘foolish’ and run RPi.
There simple fact is that I never saw (nor acquired ) the RPi as a “desk-top”.
(BTW, my latest inventory of RPi show thirty-seven of them scattered around or embedded in my house, happily acquiring and analyzing signals 😊)
*x86_64
There is no x64
So VNC got even more stupid. I’m a radio amateur and I use Pi’s in the field. They broke VNC and Pulse Audio with the latest desktop for Pi4 and now they are breaking everything else.
What used to be a great platform for shifting Linux applications to has become a convoluted mess. I have pretty much given up with Raspberry - I burn more time getting it to do what I want after the OS has been faffed about with (read “updated”) than using it.
I can’t be bothered any more.
I don’t need a f**king supercomputer, I just want a reliable Linux platform without bells and whistles that has been bought to market to piss against a wall of irrelevance against Rock and other vendors.
The Pi had and has its place - it’s good at what it did. Going down the route of diverging from the original design brief is not what traditional users want.
I dread to see the list of gotchas in the new chip that are going to percolate through user experiences.
What used to be a dependable, low power, great design has just become another irrelevance.
I give Pi 5 years at the max.😅
agreed, i use VNC for rpi a lot
Wayland was a must have, I had no problems whatsoever with vnc on gnome wayland, it just works. So, it's a matter of software I guess.
@@microlinux People keep on telling me Wayland is awesome. I have constant issues e.g. random lock-ups if I have more than a certain number of tabs open and I am using an AMD card on my main machine. Xorg continues to work fine.
@@dave7244sure, but your PC has a lot better gpu with far better mem bandwidth than an embedded system like arm linux SBC'S, that's why it's so important. Wayland compositor tend to reduce the memory bandwidth constraints and that's why the perform better, specially on our systems, not that much on x86_64 platforms like yours.
Does this has any effect on CZcams playback? On this new release I am seeing 500 dropped frames on a 17 minute 1080p video, but on (now) legacy Bullseye I am only seeing around 70 dropped frames for same video in Chromium...
for the menu bar, i usually find network throughput with upload /download more important than cpu gpu, yet it seems to be overlooked or lower priority. i hope it is included and without going through many hoops. that was one thing i liked about the previous menbar.
Special Request - Can you make a tutorial how to change upgrade the looks to the taskbar since LX panel changed to Wayland. Thanks!
I get a lot out of your video. Testing the maximum amps on USB was cool.
Pi Zero 2 runs bookworm but only X11, can't switch to Wayland on Zero 2 (at least not in any easy way).
latest Pi 5 OS does not work with Nexdock laptop, OS is backward compatible with a Pi 4 , latest OS does work with PI 4 but does not work with 2 cable set up with both Pi's.
can you make a video later about installing Vulkan on the new Raspberry Pi OS / Raspberry Pi 5. thx!
i'm curious if it can handle fedora silverblue. My RP4 got shelved when my sd card got corrupted it was running XBMC my issues was it can only output 4k 30. Now i'm running Minisforum UM250 ryzen 2500pro i used it mostly for movie streaming. I'm looking forward for RP5.
Any idea if Moonlight Streamer will work?
i am confused. My pi 400 lay on the shelf a long time. Now i test Bookworm. But, how i can change my themes on that?
```While we have been using Wayland and PipeWire internally for nearly a year now, the sheer scale of the changes means that, in some specific usage scenarios, one or the other may cause problems.
For this reason, the Advanced Settings menu in raspi-config includes options to re-enable the old X11/Openbox display system and PulseAudio```
A shame there's no switch for animations
so if you have a pi4 running on old OS there is no way to update but to download the new OS and reimage?
is there a way to use tigerVNC with arm-based Macs
It's like going in for surgery, and the anesthesiologist says, "We just got a new anesthesia that most people say works better than the old stuff. You'll get to try it out, and then you can tell us what you think after your surgery!"😞 This could be good, or it could be terribly painful.
How to connect from ipad to raspberry (bookworm) via vnc?!
Don did yo test this on the pi4??
I tried it on the pi4 with 8gb
Getting the thunder bolt icon on the top menu bar... I am using the original power supply... The mouse works but the top menu is non responsive 🤬
1. It's Not The Wallpaper By Default, The Wallpaper By Default IS FisherMan
2. You Not Show The Dark Mode Scheme.
How do I setup a static IP address?
Weird, because I never had tearing with X either. You might have had things configured wrong when it was still using it, but in the past 6 years I've not had tearing with any computer, even my Pi's.
How can U get this?
Hey, if my pi 4b is running a kde desktop will the update break something coz of wayland? Thx man👍
it shouldn't be an issue if your running other DE then stock
@@NovaspiritTech thx Don
KEY ISSUE: how to run vnc server for pi 4 / pi 400 ?
The VNC server icon has gone, software is there and is installed but now matter what I try using raspi-config the icon does not appear in the taskbar even after switching back to X11 as it has been adviced by others. I can only connect to that new pi os whatever vnc server which is crap cause I need vnc connect to have access from remote.
Terrible move I was not aware of. I hate all these changes called improvement which will end in a mess cause I have to work 2 days to get my systems back running - at least partially. 2 days lost with just this topic now for bookworm
2 days or more I had lost with bullseye removing WLAN support during update due configman or however that crap had been called.
Pi has become a mess to deal with. And no, I need an upgrade path and not a full new install which would take far longer till I get the same system back just on a new version.
i mean Pi os still looks old
The edge bleeds…
Running CZcams videos at 1080p30 on Chromium I'm getting no dropped frames with my Pi4 8GB at 1.8ghz.
No RealVNC? Sorry, but that's a deal killer here.
Here's a challenege for anyone interested: Is there any way to manually setup a dark theme/mode for the raspberry Bookworm (Wayland) OS? ... As someone who suffers serious eye-strain, I depend on dark themes/modes and cannot for the life of me find a solution to this, there must be a way, surely?....
Is this really Raspberry Pi 5?
Its desktop performance looks terrible!
Of course my Pi 4 with the new 5 OS and Wayland enabled sucks too.
After so many years they are still not able to extract decent performance from these socs.
Everything can be laggy even when CPU and GPU has some performance to spare.
I wonder if the GPU is the culprit or the Arm support in the current Linux kernels?
I made a NAS with a Pi4B and a 18TB USB HDD. But I couldn't get any system monitor graphs or graphs from Mission Center. I have ordered a celeron based nuc, so I can get back to mainstream, and ditch the toy Raspberries and their immature/unstable linux distros. I've had enough of Arm junk. The new nuc has 4 3.2 usb ports, a 2.5 GB LAN, and an NVME SSD. I'll be able to run makeMKV directly on it, avoiding the time to copy movies over ethernet.
Thanks. I'll stick with the tried and true X11. I'm never that anxious to implement the newest thing if mine works for me.
Plus, I liked confusing new admins by explaining why X servers run on the display machine, and what X clients were... ;-P
Wayland is WAY over kill for SBC. Look at the VIM1S, it's going to slow down and degrade performance.
Ehhh.. wayland it's way faster than x11.. did you ever tried to run glmark2 and make comparisons. Probably you have a problem on your setup and wayland runs on software or so, bc wayland it's considerably faster.
@@microlinux I use light systems because I want what is best for my boards. Show me a side by side. Most apps are not ready for Wayland, Gnome isn't a great example because they want to be the Metro of the Linux world ( on UI for all ). I removed Gnome/Way of few SBC got better formance from them. I get great performance from XFCE with X11, when I have to bogged own with Gnome/Wayland and it killing board. Remember SBC using med to low in GPU, usually Mali Chipset, not a video call like NVidia/AMD, and they don't have memory for the graphics, it's shared. Wayland is great for those that better GPU/Memory.
@@terrorpup ohh, there are tons of different wayland compositor for lightweight operations. Labwc, wayfare (the one used here on rpi os).. in fact, I tested one that runs amazingly as kiosk, cage compositor. I run cage chromium-browser from tty, no desktop whatsoever, best performance ever, specially of you set chromium to use native wayland.
You are trying to run gnome wayland, a heavy desktop, not bc of wayland, but bc of gnome as a desktop environment... on a very low end sbc. That will not work great, on xorg or wayland.
@@microlinux I am sorry I can't follow what you are saying, please full English and not internet speak, I have no clue what bc means.
I use what the board maker release, most only seem to know how to build an *buntu release with gnome and wayland, which is over kill for SBC. I been working on SBC for 12 years now, I am happy that Armbian has both *buntu and Debian.
I think they fked up