I agree 100% about the kit verses the RTR, more money for vanquish and your comments about almost everything else. However beginners in this hobby usually try an RTR first just because it’s the easiest way to try. So to grow the hobby solid RTRs is great in my opinion. I started out with RTRs and quickly discovered RTRs completely suck on several levels and building your own is the way to go. Great 👍🏻 video sir
Definitely go for the kit if the vrd is your poison! So much better value for what you get. But, I will also say that as much as I prefer kits to RTR, I understand why RTR are needed in the hobby. A lot of people just getting into the hobby will not go for a kit. They will go for a RTR, drive it, work on it, get comfortable taking it a part and then opt for a kit down the road. I see it everyday at the hobby shop.
I upgraded a spare VFD I had to the carbon spec and it was $197 for the upgraded parts. Just the transmission upgrades in my mind are worth buying the kit over the RTR even if everything else was the same. $42 aluminum motor plate $10 aluminum standoffs $33 lightweight front gear set $90 lightweight machined transfer case gear set (21% OD) $22 aluminum slipper eliminator If the 38% OD is too much, throw some OD portal gears in the rear and you are left with just the 21% in the trans which is way more versatile if not comping
I have also stripped the sintered gears in a Fordyce so not a fan of them. Carbon kit all the way, I have 6 of them all set up with different power trains and with different OD
The differences between the two are deceptively laid out also. I bought the kit and a buddy bought the stance. In the few weeks we’ve been crawling, (both well experienced in RC crawling,) he’s replaced the links and rod ends from repeatedly bending/breaking, all the electronics, and two or three sets of ring and pinions for blowing out without any major binding, (just recently upgraded to the machined setup and had to buy the spool)and he’s probably fixing to have to replace the shocks for leaking and coming apart, replaced the tires, inserts and wheels because the tires kept staying wadded up or tearing…I’m probably forgetting some things. Far as the carbon kit, I had to replace a set of portal gears after really trying to push it through a severe bind.
The RTR is good to get folks in. That's how I started (with crawlers) and I had a great experience. I wouldn't have any issue with the RTRs if they weren't pushing out the kits. The manufacturers just need to exercise the dilligence of keeping the kits going as well. The option is actually what's good for the hobby, not one or the other.
But as RTRs are slowly all seemingly creeping toward $500, I can't see the market sustaining that for long. The guys with 500 bucks to plunk down (more than once) aren't interested in RTRs. A 2wd Slash BL-2 is enticing at $249. So... one TRX-4 High Trail or a pair of Slash BL-2s. The crawler tax is .
Please bring back kits! It took me forever to build my first rc car in 1983 at the tender young age of 11. My single mother bought it and was absolutely no help LMAO😂 bless her, she did try. She did however teach me how to fish and tent camp.
Your SOO rite Tony. I fell for the Stance gimmick. Front diff blew out on my first run, shocks leak like a sive, radio just cuts out and just stops. Super disappointed with my Stance. Suks cuz I luv Vanquish..
I got one then jumped head first down the rabbit hole. Now it’s a full carbon plus the extra mods that would’ve been done to the carbon anyway. That’s the last RTR O will buy.
LOL, I was looking to buy a stance but opted for the VRD Carbon. Thank you for your sheer determination to push us towards this decision! Very glad I did and I loved building the kit!
While RTRs are often false economy, they are also an initially less imposing option. Somebody entering a hobby (probably) won't have good allen bits or tools, will need a charger, and batteries. One of the guys that works for me got into a Maxx and I was reminded how much more there is to buy than just the vehicle. Even someone coming from bashing will need the little baby LiPos we tend to use. While I agree with you that we should be building kits, kits + completion parts + all the other things can be a strong barrier to entry. Telling someone at the track they need 800-1000 to get started with a basic, bare bones buggy has their eyes glazing over and leaving. I also hate that we are losing kit options for people that want to build their 1st rig, or build their 2nd, 3rd, or nth rig. I see it as a quandary because while I do think we need affordable and decent performing RTRs to entice the casual onlooker, leaning into the RTR options has wrecked our kit options. Budget and patience will depend on the person of course but higher priced RTRs seem to work for people just wanting to get something, and then modify as needed over a longer time span. The economics of one's hobby usually is only a factor for what they can afford in a single purchase in the moment or after that next paycheck. It also seems like a lot of RC purchases are impulse, so a kit doesn't fulfil that urge for instant gratification. I know you understand all of this
Watching the barrier for entry hover around $400, and now with plenty of offerings at or about $500 is just... bad. RTRs need to stay at entry-level pricing, because mfrs. are killing their own market without realizing it. A new customer is only new once. Once they have any experience, they're not itching to drop $500 on RTR that needs that amount of money into it again to make it what they want it to be. I'll give credit where credit's due to Redcat for putting a Fusion and at least Amazon-level servo in an RTR. The rest is shiny garbage, but at least an effort was made. $500+ Element and Vanquish offerings still come with decade old electronics not worth the materials they're made out of.
I purchased a stance because the carbon was out of stock. It was my first visit to a hobby shop in about 18 years so I was excited to leave with a new rig. 2 days later vanquish restocks the kits 😑 . I don't regret the purchase but if I had to do it over again I'd just get the kit. I did find a set of carbon rails at the swap meet for $30 so saved a few shekels on that 😅
This is the first Stance video I've ever watched, besides my own. We just had the discussion on my own vrd carbon video (that's what brought me here) and I've listened to your points. Understood. Well made. My only problem/question to your point is this: I suspect a machined front diff gear set ($40) and the heavier brass portal outers (that the carbon also doesn't come with) are going to be enough to do well in a comp. Indeed, if you don't change the motor, the front sintered gears will probably be fine, so maybe even just the extra brass is all it needs. I'm tempted to take my Stance to the next comp, just to see, with only the brass added. If I was to podium with it, would that bring some nuance to your thinking on this RTR? I'm not looking to change your mind necessarily, but I do think there's a place for this RTR vehicle, even with the leaky shocks and stock wheels and tires. If I can take a podium at the next comp, ahead of various modified and built rigs, would you consider modifying your view that RTRs have a place in this niche of the hobby? It sounds like probably not, since your problem is with value and with RTRs vs kits - a broader criticism rather than just aimed at the Stance. The Stance just characterises your concerns, do I have that right? If people are buying RTRs, they're basically guiding manufacturers on what to sell. Rich (prev of Axial) said the same a year or two back - the market for kits is now very small compared to that for RTR. Manufacturers are being guided by buyers, in effect (though it isn't so simple, of course). Making a decent RTR seems like a reasonable compromise. I hear you on the sintered gears, it sounds like the front ring and pinion especially want to be machined instead. And on the broader question of lower quality on this one, I hadn't realised how much worse it is compared to the Carbon. But even so, it might be capable enough to make people happy? I've trailed and crawled with it and had a great time, even completely stock. It's still a great car. And I love and prefer kits!
I could pen a couple of paragraphs pretty easy here, but I will go against my own grain and keep it (relatively) concise: I would buy a Stance RTR, and I won't recommend anyone buy anything I wouldn't buy myself. The Stance RTD stands (sic) as one of the very worst examples of RTR-ification, and NEVER, ever, NOT EVER EVER listen to what an industry guy says about the state of the industry. The market for kits is small because they've taken away all the kits. They created a small market, because they saw the big margins to be had over in RTR Land. Once you change out motor, ESC, and servo-- coulda (shoulda) bought a VRD. BTW, the VRD Carbon doesn't need the big knuckle weights because it has less sprung weight.
I'm going to add your advice to my internal wisdom reference list. You're right, don't listen to industry guys, that seems obvious now you say it. I'm going to keep thinking on this. Maybe I'll come round! PS. I'd never recommend something I wouldn't buy myself either. Integrity first, always. Though sometimes I'm wrong and then opinions get updated. Can't help that part! I'm still thinking this over re the Stance.
You know, once you change cause and effect around to profits instead of customer demand, RTRs become quite a lot more... what, controversial? Unattractive?...*something*. Geez, I might be agreeing with you after all that. And thanks for the tip on the front weights. You think the vrd carbon crawls better with the more neutral, standard weight it comes with? I haven't tested this yet, as I built it in a hurry. Nationals are over now, I might need to revisit this.
And while I'm on a monologue, I hear you on the Ascent Fusion. Never seen an Acsent, never driven one, still can't get em in Australia. I just bought a Fusion variant directly from USA and paid about USD$640 for the privilege. And then I fixed it. It wasn't a small job :/
Haha I love your rants, I'm still watching this now. Been on a time crunch, only watched the indoor bit earlier. I could listen to you all day! Love your work 😂
I keep looking at it trying to see if I can find anywhere that they could have stripped it down even further. I guess they could have gotten plastic shock bodies made for it.
The fact that the sliders that come with the VRD are nowhere near as good as the sliders made by a single guy in his house should fill Vanquish with great shame. We know that it doesn't, but it should.
I get what you mean about putting somthing together for the experience. I rebuilt a 350 and put it in my 76 k20 and i know what is happening inside that carbureted V8
A comedian has a joke about how the manuals that came in the glovebox in old cars would have specs for setting the points, while manuals in cars today have warnings not to drink the juice in the battery. True, funny, sad, hits all three.
What about a beginner, iv been building a trx4 kit but that’s just for my trails and my scale goodies, I want just a basic capable crawler, could you recommend the vanquish rtr for me then?
My opinion is that the Stance, as it comes, is a great rig to start the hobby. It has great clearance for trails and is very capable in crawling. The price is similar to other rtr's of the big names out there. With that you can be assured to have fun with finding out which way you want to go and if you want to stick with the hobby. Many newcomers will not be able to build a kit correctly. If they made a mistake they will probably not be able to find the problem where they have made a mistake when the rig was build. Nor many want to spend or have the time for building and on top: researching which suitable electronics to get. Also many will be afraid to solder if they go brushed. As time goes by and a problems come, you get to know your rig anyways...my opinion. No effence, I love watching your channel and the very good content your giving us, but this time I do not agree.
I disagree with virtually everything you said. Something akin to buying your LEGO sets pre-built because you don't have the time to do it. Or maybe pre-finished puzzles. A Stance would not, even if better outfitted, be a rig I would recommend to a first-timer. It's $100 too expensive, but to be expected from the "new Vanquish." Everyone should build their first rig, lest the thing end up on FB Marketplace or rotting in a box in the garage within the month when they blow out a diff gear and have no idea what went wrong or why. RTRs are an extension of the dumbification of, well, everything-- don't know how it goes together, don't know how it works, don't know how to fix it when it inevitably breaks. The Stance RTR is not, nor will ever be a rig I would recommend to anyone regardless of skill level. If someone asked "Stance or Ascent Fusion," I would shout "option 3." What we need in the hobby is more kits, not more excuses for not building them.
@@AnyAssumptionBanter a quote from a friend with the Stance: "Yes.. I am really happy with the Stance. Met 2 experienced drivers today and I could easily drive their tracks.. They couldn't believe I am a rookie.. Hahahah They both drove TRX4 fully upgraded.. But I didn't had problems keeping up.🤣"
@@CrawlerCanyon I designed (PAW-Kites), well still designing dualline freestyle/precision kites for Level One Kites. There you also have options to build open source kites, but I would never recommend a newbee to build a kite at the start nor to buy a so called "beginner" kite which has no potential. Eccept the "ONE" which I have designed especially for beginners. A beginner should go for good performer which handles easy and forgiving to have fun starting the hobby. Breaking stuff is normal and then repairing it is a learn process.
I was able to pick up a stance for $420 and I had vrd frame rails from trading some parts. I full agree what you said. If they where in stock at the time I bought the vrd I would of bought the the carbon.
A TRX4 got me into this, and sometimes I feel gross looking at what it’s become but it is very difficult to create something from nothing when you have no baseline (oh yes I did) to start from! I would not consider buying another RTR now that I know the little bit that I know now.
In terms of RTR value, Traxxas, particularly with the Sport, is still delivering a fair deal-- Traxxas has the "least worst" RTR suite. I'd personally like to see Traxxas come out with a new rig, and drop the Sport RTR to $299.
What would be a very interesting head to head is the Vanquish Stance RTR in full RTR form Vs the Redcat Ascent Fusion. So a comparison of a great chassis with cut price electronics to a questionable chassis with decent electronics.
The "new" one is the same as the old one, just shinier. The Ascent is not competitively getting anywhere near a VRD, unless that VRD was built in the dark and a lot of the parts went on wrong.
@@CrawlerCanyon the new redcat was a 3mm carbon chassis and someone on youtube really weigh the front and rear weight ratio and its a perfect 60-40 front bias as the redcat claimed you may want to take a look i believe the old ascent is very different from the new LCG fusion they have comparison on the redcat website between their old ascent vs the new. and also isn't 43% overdrive on vrd carbon too aggressive for sidehilling?
@@qwerkeyskeebs6632 60/40 weight distribution is a meaningless number, all things considered. The only structural change was to lower the motor plate a few MMs. Same axle housings (they look like portals but have worse clearance than most straight axles,) same gears inside, same horrible shock mounting positions, same terrible geometry (all-caps warning) THE PANHARD IS ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE VEHICLE, it still doesn't have adequate gear reduction, etc, etc. The CGH likely moved down a bit with the CF chassis and the knuckle weights (puny as they are) but read a little closer-- they're misleading you. The Ascent Fusion moves about 1% weight forward compared to the RTR-- they compared weights with the RTR sporting a 3S 3600 amidships, and the Fusion with a 1050 pack forward on the slider. People are acting like it's an all-new rig. An "old" RTR with a DSM chassis and a Fusion SE in it is very nearly the same thing. The Fusion is unquestionably an improvement over the RTR, but it would be VERY difficult for it not to be. They had an exceptionally low starting point.
Almost got one yesterday but then I thought about what you had said about the value in the vrd carbon over the stance just so happend locale hobby shop had a stance rtr in stock and it was tempting but I’ll wate for the better value 👍
1991 I got my first hobby grade r/c (kyosho USA-1 electric). I think if a child/ young person wants to get into the hobby yes a rtr is good. On the other hand a kit gets them educated on how it works, the parts go together, and if it breaks they can fix it.
RTRs are easier for a first crawler. You don’t know what you really want starting out. Maybe you want the most capable possible, so you get a stance. I started with a trx4 sport because I didn’t really know what I wanted, but hey I already had a massive traxxas battery. $1000 later it’s got 650mah batteries and a lcg chassis. My current thinking is RTRs are to be ran as they come. It doesn’t make sense to modify a stance or an ascent to me. As soon as you do anything to a stance you should’ve got a carbon. On an ascent, you’re going to get to a point where you realize you don’t want those axles…amongst other things.
I wish all RTRs delivered on what is advertised, but the number that actually do is woefully small. Rigs keep getting more expensive, but the crappy electronics keep staying cheap. Tires aren't much better most of the time.
Thats what I like about your reviews, you have way more experience in the hobby than I do, so you see things that I dont Now the big question is: Phoenix kit, or VRD kit? I cant buy none of them, but it would be really close I think
@@knotical689 Im a money saver guy, if I can build my own chassis that gets me close to the Zoku performance, I will do it 100%. I dont think I will spend 150 bucks on a chassis ever, even if its made of diamonds
Super nice scale bodies are how to get me to buy an RtR. I'm sorely tempted by the FCX10 even though I already have two Blazers. What I enjoy about the hobby is the mechanical work and the driving. Painting bodies is not my happy place, and consequently I'm not great at it. The Stance RtR though? It's a crawler. No cool scale body to draw me in. And then they take out a lot of the good bits? At least RC4WD gives you some extra stuff and a nice paint job when you buy an RtR.
8 hours to late just bought the rtr and wanted the carbon, but let my shelf be talked into it 😢 Still glad to have it just gonna have to spend some extra money
I think it's a good thing to have rtrs I really do because if a grandma brings in her she's not going to let him buy a kid cuz she ain't going to know how to help put it together so we got to weigh everything I agree 100 the vrd will be the way I go but I've been building for a while now so I know what I want at the same time there's a lot to choose from even then
I bought a Phoenix RTR as my first crawler last year. Then a fusion pro. Then a Raw 500. Then a rock Pirates chassis. With brass and several sets of wheels and tires along the way next thing you know I have $1300++ into my first crawler. For my second crawler I BUILT a GSpeed v4 on Capra axles w/ rear steer. Have about the same money into it and it’s way more capable. I really liked modifying the Phoenix and seeing each upgrade make a noticeable difference in how it crawled, but it was a waste of money so to speak…..also I now have over $2000 into that fist crawler because it just morphed into an RC Speedy buggy😂
I feel like that's how they get new people into the hobby is rtrs obviously because I don't think a whole lot of people are just going to jump off the bridge you know going and getting a kit
They can only "farm the noobs" for so long. Time will come when they've run out of new guys to pull in off the street, new guys that don't know what they're buying. Think of it in terms of the microwave oven-- when they became readily available commercially, they sold like hotcakes-- because nobody had one. Over time, people didn't need to buy microwaves anymore, because they had one that worked just fine, and the new ones offered minimal improvements. Over the last 10 years or so, microwaves have barely changed at all, so there's no reason to "upgrade," and few households own more than one. So unless RTRs get better, the motivation to buy them is going to fall even faster than the number of people ready to buy them. It's already kind of happening now. The ProLine Edition Base Camp is a limited edition of 1982 units, came out in 2022, and hasn't sold out yet. It took Vanquish FOREVER to get rid of the Falken Edition, and they had to rook people to do it. RTRs don't grow the hobby. They aim to increase the user base by tricking people that don't know into buying things they don't need. That's not the usual recipe for fostering loyalty.
I agree with you on everything you said besides one thing if you got somebody that's just getting in and they can open the box and drive it that's where they're aiming at if they get them into the hobby then especially if they like it they will continue to buy more products right but also I feel like you're not going to get a brand new RC person that's going to know what the hell they're doing when it comes to buying a kit Maybe I'm Wrong
It might be Axial's worst dig. The 10.3 box will give it a challenge, tough. But at least they can learn-- the LCXU dig might be the best on the market at the moment.
I agrre the basecamp kit with the LCXU is very dependable. I just drove my Ultra with the add on dig unit and it's my favorite due to the confidense I have in it. That counts for something.@@CrawlerCanyon
Which I don't think they even sell separately yet. But the Phoenix set is $90, so let's assume the Stance set will be about the same. A hundred for the rails, 90 for the links, and another hundred for the diffs-- we're at almost $300 in parts without touching the gearbox.
When it comes to axial and traxxas I won’t spend the time in their kit form, not a big enough contrast. Back In the day axial kit was worth it metal links machined ring and pinion not powder metal metal trans gears and metal bodied shocks r35 tires that were not glued. This yes I can see the big differences. And I will agree usually vanquish is the last car/brand/rtr that people come across when getting into the hobby/crawler. Bottom line your buy different forging processes and materials between the two. I have a toyzuki v2 that’s needs electrics wheel tires body and axles. And this is to close in my opinion between the two listed here my scx10ii based full rock pirate intercepter build chassis. Vanquish links vanquish drive shafts. The $60 3 gear rip off vp dig red and black trans you use which is impressive I will add. Keep pushing the red cat away till there pissed enough to use math in the front end and this rtr feels snakish too me. Oh well welcome to lying marketing. Could you do a review on the FORDYCE not sure of that has the powdered metal gears and plastic trans ones or not. I’ve considered this is it a dumbed down phoenix like this?
Yeah, the Fordyce is to the Phoenix as the Stance is to the VRD... to a degree. The Phoenix and Fordyce both come with sintered inside the gearbox, but the Phoenix has machined in the axles (or did). I don't support the sintered axle gears in Vanquish rigs AT ALL. I just think the Fordyce should forever stay at $399, as it's competition is BaseCamp and Enduro. I put the Phoenix a step above. Te only reason a person would have to buy a Fordyce would be the body, and I can't understand that.
7:14 Ordered a VRD a last week. I actually wanted to try the body and the tires of the RTR, so it was tempting, but then I started adding up the value of the kit over the RTR. Sheesh, the RTR really leaves out the good stuff. So I oredered a kit and a clear body. Told my lazy side to shut up, I can paint the body cheaper than that. And I didnt like the look if those VXT2s anyway.
The red compound is pretty "meh" IME. Acceptable traction, but it wears away like it's play dough. Also tears super easily. I've found Jconcepts green to provide way more traction with far better tire life
lol yep im pretty much done buying rtrs😂 i think once i learn to weld or braze and deal with metal im going to have more fun fabricating frame rails and custom links and what. just like my 10.3 and ryft i would have been better off building them from nothing😂 i mean the 10.3 ill never buy again but ryft i do enjoy so far but cost wise im just swapping all the parts to aluminum so whats the point if after im done upgrading the ryft itll just have all the parts to build it again😂 i sure hate myself for buying some of my rcs haha
Vanquish RTR's are just flipping the bird and laughing while they count thier money. Love their kits though. Wish the stance spec came as a mid $200's kit to compete with axial basecamp and element kits.
Guess i never thought about the rtr vs kit deals. Mostly scouring the sale ads locally and by the individual parts i want anymore. Oh and sad-angry.... sangry? Doesn't seem to go right the other way
I’d rather have rhe redcat fusion Rtr🤷♂️🤷♂️ especially after “west desert wheelers” video… but I’ve got a terc merge x with my capra axels.. bout to get rid of my dx5c for a gt5
The Stance RTR might be a nerfed VRD, but it is designed correctly. If you ever see a test by anyone claiming the Ascent Fusion is as capable as a Stance, much less a VRD-- well, you know someone got PAID. Because they are lying to you. Period. Full stop.
rtrs need to stay under 200$ for entry at 1.10th and under 60 for 24th. so when you screw it up, it won't cost you to figure it out. then you get experience, then move to kit
I honestly don't think it would be that hard for some mfr. to come out with a competitively priced entry-level RTR-- something at at $249 RTR that hasn't been completely stripped and/or filled with nothing but obsolete parts, or have you know-- terrible geometry and thorough trashcan engineering. Instead, we live in a time when the cheapest RTR from Axial is a $339 Deadbolt "II", which is like buying 2014. Traxxas at $369, and is selling 2017.
Putting kits together is not difficult. Kits are an amazing learning experience and sucj a huge sense of fulfillment and accomplishment when you complete them and then use them.
I have been waiting 2 years for Associated to put out an Ecto kit. C'mon already. Give us an Ecto kit. LOL. The last RTR I bought was a Traxxas Slash the week they were released....when was that?....2010?...2009?
I doubt it. I'm waiting for Builder's Kit 3, which if and when it comes-- if it doesn't have a Stealth XF in it, I think I'm just boycotting Element. The BK2 has been out for 3 years. It is the only kit Element currently sells now that the GK is gone.
Haha I have not watched the video but I can guess there is poopooing on the very existence of RTR’s. I just built a carbon , great fun except for the damn c clips in the shocks the wind picked up the bag and scattered them so…. I had to cannibalize my TRX 4 shocks while the replacement clips arrive lmao😂
Well I mean, the RTR is fundamentally pro-industry and anti-end user, because it's forcing us to buy stuff we don't want or need so that the mfrs. can pad the bottom line. The Stance RTR is just the single most glaring example of it. The margin on the RTR is probably triple what it is on the VRD kit.
@@CrawlerCanyon I agree on margins, it does allow them to offer products like the carbon at that price point for people like us though. I’d love to find out where he got the boatsides for the stance, I really don’t like the aluminum sliders but I do have a temporary solve - UHMW tape, slicker than snot! I’ve fabbed up small nicknacks for my Jeep using the stuff and it’s self lubricating so I’m hoping it helps
Vanquish painted themselves into a corner by packing so much stuff into the VRD. The CF chassis rails, machined diffs and titanium links total nearly $300. There is no pricepoint that a "value VRD" kit could be sold for and make it attractive. Besides, I don't want Vanquish selling cheap kits. I want them selling what they used to sell. ONLY kits. But as I realized it's never going to happen, I'll settle for a Phoenix Pro.
@@CrawlerCanyon I’m completely with you. I have 4 vanquish rigs and not 1 is an rtr. The VRD carbon value is insane. To me a rtr is good for a first rig to learn the basics. After that kits and learn more. Phoenix rtr is great. After that kits are so much more fun to build.
And that's all I'm trying to get across to people. People are complaining and disliking and defending, and I"m over here like, "The Stance RTR is a fine truck, but it's still a nerfed VRD. Stance buyers are trading wheels, tires, a body, and bargain electronics for $700 in hop up parts. It is NOT a value." And Vanquish never really points any of that out. People see "VRD Stance RTR" and jump at it.
Unless associated change I’ve seen rtr buggies and stadium trucks. VP is like idk shimano derailleur chassis seem the same but have different bits. Mtb world is another/off topic but irritating. Just call this rtr stance square taper 🤮😂
You must not forget that some people especially newcomers to the hobby havent got the skills or understanding to build a kit. Some people need to work up to that point. Some of these people want the coolest truck they can get. RTRs open up the hobby to people without those skilled patience or abilities to build a kit. People also will pay for a capable rig just so they can hang with the boys..... I wouldn't buy that expensive ass RTR but people will and that shouldnt make you mad that a manufacturer is charging that for their truck. You should not forget that not everyone is a tinkerer like you and can take the time to figure out their own recipe for hair bun inserts....people will buy pro-line dual stage foams for an insane price....and that shouldn make you mad that they charge that or that those mouthbreathers will buy them....it matters not....i wont buy pro-line dual stage foams.....as for Redcat they did address things wrong with the ascent that many many consumers were openly talking about and suggesting. Redcat is listening to the consumers. I don't particularly care for redcat I've owned one of their basher trucks years ago and was unhappy with it.....but its pretty obvious that since the gen 7 to now that redcat is trying to become better and they have clearly shown an effot to consider what the market is saying....you good sir drive tiny trucks in a little man made concrete bubble called the canyon where outside of that bubble there are many many more variables that exist alowing for ones own personal freedom of choice in all aspects......what works for you may not work for others especially the novice..... while I do agree with you overwhelmingly I think you need to pump the brakes on all this....the fact is that there are a bunch of people out there that havent got the skills to build or the patience to understand the intricacies of antisquat but want to drive a tiny toy truck that performs at a competition level and have the cash to pay for a product they like or want.....and you shouldn't be mad about that. but you know that old saying.....Haters gonna hate.....
Not only is "haters gonna hate" trite, but it's also intensely myopic. Redcat has yet to progress past knockoff artists-- no, correct that, resellers of knockoff artists. Redcat has done to progress the category. They don't bother with geometry, they rehash, reuse, and recycle-- then repaint so it looks new and shiny. Their rigs are built out of parts that were outdated and/or discontinued by the original mfrs. years ago. Redcat is preying on ignorance-- people who don't know any better, so they opt for the cheaper, shinier option, because they think it's a valid alternative. Redcat has never done anything in the crawling category worthy of being taken seriously. And for the last time. They. Didn't. Change. Anything. Important. Lowered the motor 6mm? WHO CARES!?! THE PANHARD BAR IS ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE VEHICLE. The front suspension is stiffer than the rear. WHY!?! Designing these things isn't that hard. Anyone can do it. I build them all the time.
@@CrawlerCanyon like I said I agree with you mostly.....I don't care for redcat and the panhard is definitely on the wrong side of the truck, WHY can't be sure....I disagree not just anyone can design these things However the fusion does perform better than the regular ascent.... adjustments were made that the marked asked for. And you shouldn't be mad at that. You do realize that you regularly focus your time and energy on creating content showcasing reviewing knock off copy cat Chinese Internet rc crawler parts without the same negative energy you put out towards redcat right? WHY. I had no intention of making some corny stand for redcat but here I am...in my experience redcat sucks....but people like their products, who cares as long as they are enjoying the hobby and learning and growing that's the point right. YOU ARE CONSTANTLY BUYING AND REVIEWING REBRANDED CLONED CHINESE KNOCK OFF PRODUCTS🤣🤣🤣Those newbs will never know that fucking panhard is on the wrong side of the fucking truck but they will figure it out just like the vanquish stance newbs will never know that truck is grossly over priced with garbage tires, a shit ESC and motor. Some of these things are entry level and some are not....we all start somewhere and that's part of the experience...where did you start, or did you just show up to the game knowing why and how to tune your antisquat
Vanquish is becoming over priced garbage ….i have 5 rigs from their line up…. I’ve had so many issues with their kits as far as quality control …plus buying additional components have added issues… I’ve got 50+ rc cars of Traxxas , axial , RGT , HPI etc and 5 are vanquish…..out of all my rigs vanquish products have given me the most grief …some minor issues that I figure it’s part of the hobby but when I get high quality parts that aren’t machined propel or finished , that gets old and really a sour outlook at their products.
I agree 100% about the kit verses the RTR, more money for vanquish and your comments about almost everything else. However beginners in this hobby usually try an RTR first just because it’s the easiest way to try. So to grow the hobby solid RTRs is great in my opinion. I started out with RTRs and quickly discovered RTRs completely suck on several levels and building your own is the way to go. Great 👍🏻 video sir
Definitely go for the kit if the vrd is your poison! So much better value for what you get.
But, I will also say that as much as I prefer kits to RTR, I understand why RTR are needed in the hobby. A lot of people just getting into the hobby will not go for a kit. They will go for a RTR, drive it, work on it, get comfortable taking it a part and then opt for a kit down the road. I see it everyday at the hobby shop.
100% well said. Been in the RC hobby for like ever and was bummed when I seen a RTR some long time ago.
I upgraded a spare VFD I had to the carbon spec and it was $197 for the upgraded parts. Just the transmission upgrades in my mind are worth buying the kit over the RTR even if everything else was the same.
$42 aluminum motor plate
$10 aluminum standoffs
$33 lightweight front gear set
$90 lightweight machined transfer case gear set (21% OD)
$22 aluminum slipper eliminator
If the 38% OD is too much, throw some OD portal gears in the rear and you are left with just the 21% in the trans which is way more versatile if not comping
I have also stripped the sintered gears in a Fordyce so not a fan of them. Carbon kit all the way, I have 6 of them all set up with different power trains and with different OD
I wish this video was out at the time it came out. I bought the rtr and your right everything needs changed. Next time I need to get a kit.
You're right
The differences between the two are deceptively laid out also. I bought the kit and a buddy bought the stance. In the few weeks we’ve been crawling, (both well experienced in RC crawling,) he’s replaced the links and rod ends from repeatedly bending/breaking, all the electronics, and two or three sets of ring and pinions for blowing out without any major binding, (just recently upgraded to the machined setup and had to buy the spool)and he’s probably fixing to have to replace the shocks for leaking and coming apart, replaced the tires, inserts and wheels because the tires kept staying wadded up or tearing…I’m probably forgetting some things. Far as the carbon kit, I had to replace a set of portal gears after really trying to push it through a severe bind.
The RTR is good to get folks in. That's how I started (with crawlers) and I had a great experience. I wouldn't have any issue with the RTRs if they weren't pushing out the kits. The manufacturers just need to exercise the dilligence of keeping the kits going as well. The option is actually what's good for the hobby, not one or the other.
But as RTRs are slowly all seemingly creeping toward $500, I can't see the market sustaining that for long. The guys with 500 bucks to plunk down (more than once) aren't interested in RTRs. A 2wd Slash BL-2 is enticing at $249. So... one TRX-4 High Trail or a pair of Slash BL-2s. The crawler tax is .
I am realy not feeling well to say: The ascend fusion seems to be the better offer as an entrace vehicle?🙄
Please bring back kits! It took me forever to build my first rc car in 1983 at the tender young age of 11. My single mother bought it and was absolutely no help LMAO😂 bless her, she did try. She did however teach me how to fish and tent camp.
Your SOO rite Tony. I fell for the Stance gimmick. Front diff blew out on my first run, shocks leak like a sive, radio just cuts out and just stops. Super disappointed with my Stance. Suks cuz I luv Vanquish..
I got one then jumped head first down the rabbit hole. Now it’s a full carbon plus the extra mods that would’ve been done to the carbon anyway. That’s the last RTR O will buy.
LOL, I was looking to buy a stance but opted for the VRD Carbon. Thank you for your sheer determination to push us towards this decision! Very glad I did and I loved building the kit!
"Make kits great again ". I totally agree and feel there needs to be more available. I personally love building and modifying my trucks/cars.
Heard all I needed to hear by min 03:00, thanks brother.
I just wish someone would make a premium RTR with top level components in it.
While RTRs are often false economy, they are also an initially less imposing option. Somebody entering a hobby (probably) won't have good allen bits or tools, will need a charger, and batteries. One of the guys that works for me got into a Maxx and I was reminded how much more there is to buy than just the vehicle. Even someone coming from bashing will need the little baby LiPos we tend to use. While I agree with you that we should be building kits, kits + completion parts + all the other things can be a strong barrier to entry. Telling someone at the track they need 800-1000 to get started with a basic, bare bones buggy has their eyes glazing over and leaving.
I also hate that we are losing kit options for people that want to build their 1st rig, or build their 2nd, 3rd, or nth rig. I see it as a quandary because while I do think we need affordable and decent performing RTRs to entice the casual onlooker, leaning into the RTR options has wrecked our kit options. Budget and patience will depend on the person of course but higher priced RTRs seem to work for people just wanting to get something, and then modify as needed over a longer time span. The economics of one's hobby usually is only a factor for what they can afford in a single purchase in the moment or after that next paycheck. It also seems like a lot of RC purchases are impulse, so a kit doesn't fulfil that urge for instant gratification. I know you understand all of this
Watching the barrier for entry hover around $400, and now with plenty of offerings at or about $500 is just... bad. RTRs need to stay at entry-level pricing, because mfrs. are killing their own market without realizing it. A new customer is only new once. Once they have any experience, they're not itching to drop $500 on RTR that needs that amount of money into it again to make it what they want it to be. I'll give credit where credit's due to Redcat for putting a Fusion and at least Amazon-level servo in an RTR. The rest is shiny garbage, but at least an effort was made. $500+ Element and Vanquish offerings still come with decade old electronics not worth the materials they're made out of.
I purchased a stance because the carbon was out of stock. It was my first visit to a hobby shop in about 18 years so I was excited to leave with a new rig. 2 days later vanquish restocks the kits 😑 . I don't regret the purchase but if I had to do it over again I'd just get the kit. I did find a set of carbon rails at the swap meet for $30 so saved a few shekels on that 😅
LOL! I bought the VRD. Every point you make where part of the decision I made when making the choice. 👍🏼
This is the first Stance video I've ever watched, besides my own. We just had the discussion on my own vrd carbon video (that's what brought me here) and I've listened to your points. Understood. Well made.
My only problem/question to your point is this: I suspect a machined front diff gear set ($40) and the heavier brass portal outers (that the carbon also doesn't come with) are going to be enough to do well in a comp. Indeed, if you don't change the motor, the front sintered gears will probably be fine, so maybe even just the extra brass is all it needs.
I'm tempted to take my Stance to the next comp, just to see, with only the brass added. If I was to podium with it, would that bring some nuance to your thinking on this RTR? I'm not looking to change your mind necessarily, but I do think there's a place for this RTR vehicle, even with the leaky shocks and stock wheels and tires. If I can take a podium at the next comp, ahead of various modified and built rigs, would you consider modifying your view that RTRs have a place in this niche of the hobby?
It sounds like probably not, since your problem is with value and with RTRs vs kits - a broader criticism rather than just aimed at the Stance. The Stance just characterises your concerns, do I have that right?
If people are buying RTRs, they're basically guiding manufacturers on what to sell. Rich (prev of Axial) said the same a year or two back - the market for kits is now very small compared to that for RTR. Manufacturers are being guided by buyers, in effect (though it isn't so simple, of course). Making a decent RTR seems like a reasonable compromise. I hear you on the sintered gears, it sounds like the front ring and pinion especially want to be machined instead. And on the broader question of lower quality on this one, I hadn't realised how much worse it is compared to the Carbon.
But even so, it might be capable enough to make people happy? I've trailed and crawled with it and had a great time, even completely stock. It's still a great car. And I love and prefer kits!
I could pen a couple of paragraphs pretty easy here, but I will go against my own grain and keep it (relatively) concise: I would buy a Stance RTR, and I won't recommend anyone buy anything I wouldn't buy myself. The Stance RTD stands (sic) as one of the very worst examples of RTR-ification, and NEVER, ever, NOT EVER EVER listen to what an industry guy says about the state of the industry. The market for kits is small because they've taken away all the kits. They created a small market, because they saw the big margins to be had over in RTR Land.
Once you change out motor, ESC, and servo-- coulda (shoulda) bought a VRD. BTW, the VRD Carbon doesn't need the big knuckle weights because it has less sprung weight.
I'm going to add your advice to my internal wisdom reference list. You're right, don't listen to industry guys, that seems obvious now you say it.
I'm going to keep thinking on this. Maybe I'll come round!
PS. I'd never recommend something I wouldn't buy myself either. Integrity first, always.
Though sometimes I'm wrong and then opinions get updated. Can't help that part! I'm still thinking this over re the Stance.
You know, once you change cause and effect around to profits instead of customer demand, RTRs become quite a lot more... what, controversial? Unattractive?...*something*. Geez, I might be agreeing with you after all that.
And thanks for the tip on the front weights. You think the vrd carbon crawls better with the more neutral, standard weight it comes with? I haven't tested this yet, as I built it in a hurry. Nationals are over now, I might need to revisit this.
And while I'm on a monologue, I hear you on the Ascent Fusion. Never seen an Acsent, never driven one, still can't get em in Australia. I just bought a Fusion variant directly from USA and paid about USD$640 for the privilege. And then I fixed it. It wasn't a small job :/
Haha I love your rants, I'm still watching this now. Been on a time crunch, only watched the indoor bit earlier. I could listen to you all day! Love your work 😂
Stance is the name of the body. They are both vrds . One of them is just stripped down to the cheapest form they could.
Boy's are the same as girls now too!
I keep looking at it trying to see if I can find anywhere that they could have stripped it down even further. I guess they could have gotten plastic shock bodies made for it.
They could have used single stage foams😃 the thought of plastic shock absorbers slipped my mind, what's left of it.
My Zoku ZRD kit is in the mail! I'm really excited. It's also replacing my carbon kit chassis that has exactly 0 seconds of run time lol
The fact that the sliders that come with the VRD are nowhere near as good as the sliders made by a single guy in his house should fill Vanquish with great shame. We know that it doesn't, but it should.
@@CrawlerCanyon nods in approval
I get what you mean about putting somthing together for the experience. I rebuilt a 350 and put it in my 76 k20 and i know what is happening inside that carbureted V8
A comedian has a joke about how the manuals that came in the glovebox in old cars would have specs for setting the points, while manuals in cars today have warnings not to drink the juice in the battery. True, funny, sad, hits all three.
basecamp kits ftw til they hopefully drop a new one this summer.
Great vid, and I agree with you 100%!
What about a beginner, iv been building a trx4 kit but that’s just for my trails and my scale goodies, I want just a basic capable crawler, could you recommend the vanquish rtr for me then?
Where can I get that Crawler sticker on the back off the Zoku stance body?
My opinion is that the Stance, as it comes, is a great rig to start the hobby. It has great clearance for trails and is very capable in crawling. The price is similar to other rtr's of the big names out there. With that you can be assured to have fun with finding out which way you want to go and if you want to stick with the hobby.
Many newcomers will not be able to build a kit correctly. If they made a mistake they will probably not be able to find the problem where they have made a mistake when the rig was build. Nor many want to spend or have the time for building and on top: researching which suitable electronics to get. Also many will be afraid to solder if they go brushed. As time goes by and a problems come, you get to know your rig anyways...my opinion.
No effence, I love watching your channel and the very good content your giving us, but this time I do not agree.
the stance is not a starter rtr for newbies; asking a local hobby shop, one told me they sell more trax rtrs for beginners.
I disagree with virtually everything you said. Something akin to buying your LEGO sets pre-built because you don't have the time to do it. Or maybe pre-finished puzzles. A Stance would not, even if better outfitted, be a rig I would recommend to a first-timer. It's $100 too expensive, but to be expected from the "new Vanquish." Everyone should build their first rig, lest the thing end up on FB Marketplace or rotting in a box in the garage within the month when they blow out a diff gear and have no idea what went wrong or why. RTRs are an extension of the dumbification of, well, everything-- don't know how it goes together, don't know how it works, don't know how to fix it when it inevitably breaks.
The Stance RTR is not, nor will ever be a rig I would recommend to anyone regardless of skill level. If someone asked "Stance or Ascent Fusion," I would shout "option 3."
What we need in the hobby is more kits, not more excuses for not building them.
@@CrawlerCanyon Option 3! 😂😂😂
@@AnyAssumptionBanter a quote from a friend with the Stance:
"Yes.. I am really happy with the Stance.
Met 2 experienced drivers today and I could easily drive their tracks.. They couldn't believe I am a rookie.. Hahahah
They both drove TRX4 fully upgraded.. But I didn't had problems keeping up.🤣"
@@CrawlerCanyon
I designed (PAW-Kites), well still designing dualline freestyle/precision kites for Level One Kites.
There you also have options to build open source kites, but I would never recommend a newbee to build a kite at the start nor to buy a so called "beginner" kite which has no potential. Eccept the "ONE" which I have designed especially for beginners. A beginner should go for good performer which handles easy and forgiving to have fun starting the hobby. Breaking stuff is normal and then repairing it is a learn process.
I was able to pick up a stance for $420 and I had vrd frame rails from trading some parts. I full agree what you said. If they where in stock at the time I bought the vrd I would of bought the the carbon.
A TRX4 got me into this, and sometimes I feel gross looking at what it’s become but it is very difficult to create something from nothing when you have no baseline (oh yes I did) to start from! I would not consider buying another RTR now that I know the little bit that I know now.
In terms of RTR value, Traxxas, particularly with the Sport, is still delivering a fair deal-- Traxxas has the "least worst" RTR suite. I'd personally like to see Traxxas come out with a new rig, and drop the Sport RTR to $299.
What would be a very interesting head to head is the Vanquish Stance RTR in full RTR form Vs the Redcat Ascent Fusion.
So a comparison of a great chassis with cut price electronics to a questionable chassis with decent electronics.
I'd like to see that as well. But I think we know that a Stance (much less a VRD) with the Hexfly servo and Fusion RTR installed would beat 'em both.
Would love to see your vrd vs the new released Redcat ascent lcg Fusion Mr. Canyon :)
The "new" one is the same as the old one, just shinier. The Ascent is not competitively getting anywhere near a VRD, unless that VRD was built in the dark and a lot of the parts went on wrong.
@@CrawlerCanyon the new redcat was a 3mm carbon chassis and someone on youtube really weigh the front and rear weight ratio and its a perfect 60-40 front bias as the redcat claimed you may want to take a look i believe the old ascent is very different from the new LCG fusion they have comparison on the redcat website between their old ascent vs the new.
and also isn't 43% overdrive on vrd carbon too aggressive for sidehilling?
@@qwerkeyskeebs6632 60/40 weight distribution is a meaningless number, all things considered. The only structural change was to lower the motor plate a few MMs. Same axle housings (they look like portals but have worse clearance than most straight axles,) same gears inside, same horrible shock mounting positions, same terrible geometry (all-caps warning) THE PANHARD IS ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE VEHICLE, it still doesn't have adequate gear reduction, etc, etc. The CGH likely moved down a bit with the CF chassis and the knuckle weights (puny as they are) but read a little closer-- they're misleading you. The Ascent Fusion moves about 1% weight forward compared to the RTR-- they compared weights with the RTR sporting a 3S 3600 amidships, and the Fusion with a 1050 pack forward on the slider. People are acting like it's an all-new rig. An "old" RTR with a DSM chassis and a Fusion SE in it is very nearly the same thing.
The Fusion is unquestionably an improvement over the RTR, but it would be VERY difficult for it not to be. They had an exceptionally low starting point.
Almost got one yesterday but then I thought about what you had said about the value in the vrd carbon over the stance just so happend locale hobby shop had a stance rtr in stock and it was tempting but I’ll wate for the better value 👍
I see people all the time in the group tell people to buy kits and they say I just don't have the time to build one
I was on the fence between the stance and the carbon. I think using your logic, my mind has been made. Carbon it is
I can’t afford either one. Crawler prices in general need to come down. At least charge less for RTR if I’m buying a lesser performing vehicle.
1991 I got my first hobby grade r/c (kyosho USA-1 electric). I think if a child/ young person wants to get into the hobby yes a rtr is good. On the other hand a kit gets them educated on how it works, the parts go together, and if it breaks they can fix it.
I agree with you 100% built vrd carbon for about 800 and it dominates.
Completely agree.
RTRs are easier for a first crawler. You don’t know what you really want starting out. Maybe you want the most capable possible, so you get a stance. I started with a trx4 sport because I didn’t really know what I wanted, but hey I already had a massive traxxas battery. $1000 later it’s got 650mah batteries and a lcg chassis.
My current thinking is RTRs are to be ran as they come. It doesn’t make sense to modify a stance or an ascent to me. As soon as you do anything to a stance you should’ve got a carbon. On an ascent, you’re going to get to a point where you realize you don’t want those axles…amongst other things.
I wish all RTRs delivered on what is advertised, but the number that actually do is woefully small. Rigs keep getting more expensive, but the crappy electronics keep staying cheap. Tires aren't much better most of the time.
Thats what I like about your reviews, you have way more experience in the hobby than I do, so you see things that I dont
Now the big question is: Phoenix kit, or VRD kit? I cant buy none of them, but it would be really close I think
If budget allows, how about a Phoenix on a Zoku chassis? More scale looking than the VRD but still killer performance
@@knotical689 Im a money saver guy, if I can build my own chassis that gets me close to the Zoku performance, I will do it 100%. I dont think I will spend 150 bucks on a chassis ever, even if its made of diamonds
Super nice scale bodies are how to get me to buy an RtR. I'm sorely tempted by the FCX10 even though I already have two Blazers. What I enjoy about the hobby is the mechanical work and the driving. Painting bodies is not my happy place, and consequently I'm not great at it.
The Stance RtR though? It's a crawler. No cool scale body to draw me in. And then they take out a lot of the good bits? At least RC4WD gives you some extra stuff and a nice paint job when you buy an RtR.
how is the new shed going ?
Cleared the area, am starting on pilings today.
Agree 100%, and what about resale, especially most can't build a kit worth much more...
I fully agree with the premise. I get why rtr's are done but quality will always pay
Amen brother I agree 100%! Rtr is just a huge money pit, I'll only buy kits and lcg rails and build it myself with part I want in in.
💥💥💥
8 hours to late just bought the rtr and wanted the carbon, but let my shelf be talked into it 😢 Still glad to have it just gonna have to spend some extra money
I think it's a good thing to have rtrs I really do because if a grandma brings in her she's not going to let him buy a kid cuz she ain't going to know how to help put it together so we got to weigh everything I agree 100 the vrd will be the way I go but I've been building for a while now so I know what I want at the same time there's a lot to choose from even then
RTR vs. kit debate aside, the Stance RTR is NOT a good value, and anyone trying to make an argument that it is doesn't understand how money works.
I bought a Phoenix RTR as my first crawler last year. Then a fusion pro. Then a Raw 500. Then a rock Pirates chassis. With brass and several sets of wheels and tires along the way next thing you know I have $1300++ into my first crawler. For my second crawler I BUILT a GSpeed v4 on Capra axles w/ rear steer. Have about the same money into it and it’s way more capable.
I really liked modifying the Phoenix and seeing each upgrade make a noticeable difference in how it crawled, but it was a waste of money so to speak…..also I now have over $2000 into that fist crawler because it just morphed into an RC Speedy buggy😂
I feel like that's how they get new people into the hobby is rtrs obviously because I don't think a whole lot of people are just going to jump off the bridge you know going and getting a kit
They can only "farm the noobs" for so long. Time will come when they've run out of new guys to pull in off the street, new guys that don't know what they're buying. Think of it in terms of the microwave oven-- when they became readily available commercially, they sold like hotcakes-- because nobody had one. Over time, people didn't need to buy microwaves anymore, because they had one that worked just fine, and the new ones offered minimal improvements. Over the last 10 years or so, microwaves have barely changed at all, so there's no reason to "upgrade," and few households own more than one.
So unless RTRs get better, the motivation to buy them is going to fall even faster than the number of people ready to buy them. It's already kind of happening now. The ProLine Edition Base Camp is a limited edition of 1982 units, came out in 2022, and hasn't sold out yet. It took Vanquish FOREVER to get rid of the Falken Edition, and they had to rook people to do it.
RTRs don't grow the hobby. They aim to increase the user base by tricking people that don't know into buying things they don't need. That's not the usual recipe for fostering loyalty.
I agree with you on everything you said besides one thing if you got somebody that's just getting in and they can open the box and drive it that's where they're aiming at if they get them into the hobby then especially if they like it they will continue to buy more products right but also I feel like you're not going to get a brand new RC person that's going to know what the hell they're doing when it comes to buying a kit Maybe I'm Wrong
The number of RTRs that are properly RTR can be counted on one hand. Also, if the mark for entry is $500, that mark is WAY too high.
I spent a $100 trying to make the capra dig work and in the end I locked it out.
It might be Axial's worst dig. The 10.3 box will give it a challenge, tough. But at least they can learn-- the LCXU dig might be the best on the market at the moment.
I agrre the basecamp kit with the LCXU is very dependable. I just drove my Ultra with the add on dig unit and it's my favorite due to the confidense I have in it. That counts for something.@@CrawlerCanyon
At least it's easy to 4WS a Capra, and it suits the style of buggy. Largely gets rid of benefits of DIG.
Don’t forget you get the titanium links with the vrd kit
Which I don't think they even sell separately yet. But the Phoenix set is $90, so let's assume the Stance set will be about the same. A hundred for the rails, 90 for the links, and another hundred for the diffs-- we're at almost $300 in parts without touching the gearbox.
I always buy kits. Disassembling RTR's is a pain in the ass. The Stance is shaped more like a boat than a truck
When it comes to axial and traxxas I won’t spend the time in their kit form, not a big enough contrast. Back In the day axial kit was worth it metal links machined ring and pinion not powder metal metal trans gears and metal bodied shocks r35 tires that were not glued. This yes I can see the big differences. And I will agree usually vanquish is the last car/brand/rtr that people come across when getting into the hobby/crawler.
Bottom line your buy different forging processes and materials between the two. I have a toyzuki v2 that’s needs electrics wheel tires body and axles. And this is to close in my opinion between the two listed here my scx10ii based full rock pirate intercepter build chassis. Vanquish links vanquish drive shafts. The $60 3 gear rip off vp dig red and black trans you use which is impressive I will add. Keep pushing the red cat away till there pissed enough to use math in the front end and this rtr feels snakish too me. Oh well welcome to lying marketing.
Could you do a review on the FORDYCE not sure of that has the powdered metal gears and plastic trans ones or not. I’ve considered this is it a dumbed down phoenix like this?
Yeah, the Fordyce is to the Phoenix as the Stance is to the VRD... to a degree. The Phoenix and Fordyce both come with sintered inside the gearbox, but the Phoenix has machined in the axles (or did). I don't support the sintered axle gears in Vanquish rigs AT ALL. I just think the Fordyce should forever stay at $399, as it's competition is BaseCamp and Enduro. I put the Phoenix a step above. Te only reason a person would have to buy a Fordyce would be the body, and I can't understand that.
7:14 Ordered a VRD a last week. I actually wanted to try the body and the tires of the RTR, so it was tempting, but then I started adding up the value of the kit over the RTR. Sheesh, the RTR really leaves out the good stuff. So I oredered a kit and a clear body. Told my lazy side to shut up, I can paint the body cheaper than that. And I didnt like the look if those VXT2s anyway.
The VXT2 has continually proven to be less than impressive, even with the "new" dual-stage foams.
The red compound is pretty "meh" IME. Acceptable traction, but it wears away like it's play dough. Also tears super easily. I've found Jconcepts green to provide way more traction with far better tire life
Built not bought is the way..
lol yep im pretty much done buying rtrs😂 i think once i learn to weld or braze and deal with metal im going to have more fun fabricating frame rails and custom links and what. just like my 10.3 and ryft i would have been better off building them from nothing😂 i mean the 10.3 ill never buy again but ryft i do enjoy so far but cost wise im just swapping all the parts to aluminum so whats the point if after im done upgrading the ryft itll just have all the parts to build it again😂 i sure hate myself for buying some of my rcs haha
i fell for the trap of its an rtr all i need is batteries yayy😂🤣 so ya im sticking to good parts and your advice from now on
Vanquish RTR's are just flipping the bird and laughing while they count thier money. Love their kits though. Wish the stance spec came as a mid $200's kit to compete with axial basecamp and element kits.
Guess i never thought about the rtr vs kit deals. Mostly scouring the sale ads locally and by the individual parts i want anymore.
Oh and sad-angry.... sangry? Doesn't seem to go right the other way
I’d rather have rhe redcat fusion Rtr🤷♂️🤷♂️ especially after “west desert wheelers” video… but I’ve got a terc merge x with my capra axels.. bout to get rid of my dx5c for a gt5
The Stance RTR might be a nerfed VRD, but it is designed correctly. If you ever see a test by anyone claiming the Ascent Fusion is as capable as a Stance, much less a VRD-- well, you know someone got PAID. Because they are lying to you. Period. Full stop.
Alllways got time for canyon rants 🍿🍿🍿🍿😎😎🙏😎
I just wish the Element kit had the new style transmission…..
We're all sitting here wondering why we haven't seen Builder's Kit 3 yet. The BK2 has been out for almost 3 years.
I'm waiting for the element LCG@@CrawlerCanyon
rtrs need to stay under 200$ for entry at 1.10th and under 60 for 24th. so when you screw it up, it won't cost you to figure it out. then you get experience, then move to kit
I honestly don't think it would be that hard for some mfr. to come out with a competitively priced entry-level RTR-- something at at $249 RTR that hasn't been completely stripped and/or filled with nothing but obsolete parts, or have you know-- terrible geometry and thorough trashcan engineering. Instead, we live in a time when the cheapest RTR from Axial is a $339 Deadbolt "II", which is like buying 2014. Traxxas at $369, and is selling 2017.
It was shiny and pretty in the store, don't hate me.
the links for sure bent on one of those rollovers
Not everybody is as mechanically inclined as you and I. That is the only reason why ready to run crawler exist.
Exactly why iv been considering an ecto.
This might be true but a kit is a awesome way to learn!!
@thekracken4572 yes a kit is very doable. From scratch and no instructions is tuff.
Putting kits together is not difficult. Kits are an amazing learning experience and sucj a huge sense of fulfillment and accomplishment when you complete them and then use them.
I agree with all of you, I enjoy kits way more than ready to runs.
😆🤣🤣😆😆🤣
I have been waiting 2 years for Associated to put out an Ecto kit. C'mon already. Give us an Ecto kit. LOL. The last RTR I bought was a Traxxas Slash the week they were released....when was that?....2010?...2009?
I doubt it. I'm waiting for Builder's Kit 3, which if and when it comes-- if it doesn't have a Stealth XF in it, I think I'm just boycotting Element. The BK2 has been out for 3 years. It is the only kit Element currently sells now that the GK is gone.
I think there's only five guys at Vanquish
You also need to then count the factory workers in the Far East who are producing, assembling, and packaging all the stuff.
Haha I have not watched the video but I can guess there is poopooing on the very existence of RTR’s. I just built a carbon , great fun except for the damn c clips in the shocks the wind picked up the bag and scattered them so…. I had to cannibalize my TRX 4 shocks while the replacement clips arrive lmao😂
Well I mean, the RTR is fundamentally pro-industry and anti-end user, because it's forcing us to buy stuff we don't want or need so that the mfrs. can pad the bottom line. The Stance RTR is just the single most glaring example of it. The margin on the RTR is probably triple what it is on the VRD kit.
@@CrawlerCanyon I agree on margins, it does allow them to offer products like the carbon at that price point for people like us though. I’d love to find out where he got the boatsides for the stance, I really don’t like the aluminum sliders but I do have a temporary solve - UHMW tape, slicker than snot! I’ve fabbed up small nicknacks for my Jeep using the stuff and it’s self lubricating so I’m hoping it helps
One for the price of two..
So to play devils advocate what if the stance came with all the same parts in a kit form for $100 less like say a tamiya clodbuster.
Vanquish painted themselves into a corner by packing so much stuff into the VRD. The CF chassis rails, machined diffs and titanium links total nearly $300. There is no pricepoint that a "value VRD" kit could be sold for and make it attractive. Besides, I don't want Vanquish selling cheap kits. I want them selling what they used to sell. ONLY kits. But as I realized it's never going to happen, I'll settle for a Phoenix Pro.
@@CrawlerCanyon I’m completely with you. I have 4 vanquish rigs and not 1 is an rtr. The VRD carbon value is insane. To me a rtr is good for a first rig to learn the basics. After that kits and learn more. Phoenix rtr is great. After that kits are so much more fun to build.
I don’t think you have to worry about me buying a vanquish product don’t get me wrong great product just don’t like what’s behind the whole thing.
I was saying the same exact thing weeks ago after I got dooped. Great truck still just a rip off.
And that's all I'm trying to get across to people. People are complaining and disliking and defending, and I"m over here like, "The Stance RTR is a fine truck, but it's still a nerfed VRD. Stance buyers are trading wheels, tires, a body, and bargain electronics for $700 in hop up parts. It is NOT a value."
And Vanquish never really points any of that out. People see "VRD Stance RTR" and jump at it.
Unless associated change I’ve seen rtr buggies and stadium trucks. VP is like idk shimano derailleur chassis seem the same but have different bits. Mtb world is another/off topic but irritating. Just call this rtr stance square taper 🤮😂
You must not forget that some people especially newcomers to the hobby havent got the skills or understanding to build a kit. Some people need to work up to that point. Some of these people want the coolest truck they can get. RTRs open up the hobby to people without those skilled patience or abilities to build a kit. People also will pay for a capable rig just so they can hang with the boys..... I wouldn't buy that expensive ass RTR but people will and that shouldnt make you mad that a manufacturer is charging that for their truck. You should not forget that not everyone is a tinkerer like you and can take the time to figure out their own recipe for hair bun inserts....people will buy pro-line dual stage foams for an insane price....and that shouldn make you mad that they charge that or that those mouthbreathers will buy them....it matters not....i wont buy pro-line dual stage foams.....as for Redcat they did address things wrong with the ascent that many many consumers were openly talking about and suggesting. Redcat is listening to the consumers. I don't particularly care for redcat I've owned one of their basher trucks years ago and was unhappy with it.....but its pretty obvious that since the gen 7 to now that redcat is trying to become better and they have clearly shown an effot to consider what the market is saying....you good sir drive tiny trucks in a little man made concrete bubble called the canyon where outside of that bubble there are many many more variables that exist alowing for ones own personal freedom of choice in all aspects......what works for you may not work for others especially the novice..... while I do agree with you overwhelmingly I think you need to pump the brakes on all this....the fact is that there are a bunch of people out there that havent got the skills to build or the patience to understand the intricacies of antisquat but want to drive a tiny toy truck that performs at a competition level and have the cash to pay for a product they like or want.....and you shouldn't be mad about that. but you know that old saying.....Haters gonna hate.....
Not only is "haters gonna hate" trite, but it's also intensely myopic. Redcat has yet to progress past knockoff artists-- no, correct that, resellers of knockoff artists. Redcat has done to progress the category. They don't bother with geometry, they rehash, reuse, and recycle-- then repaint so it looks new and shiny. Their rigs are built out of parts that were outdated and/or discontinued by the original mfrs. years ago. Redcat is preying on ignorance-- people who don't know any better, so they opt for the cheaper, shinier option, because they think it's a valid alternative. Redcat has never done anything in the crawling category worthy of being taken seriously.
And for the last time. They. Didn't. Change. Anything. Important. Lowered the motor 6mm? WHO CARES!?! THE PANHARD BAR IS ON THE WRONG SIDE OF THE VEHICLE. The front suspension is stiffer than the rear. WHY!?! Designing these things isn't that hard. Anyone can do it. I build them all the time.
@@CrawlerCanyon like I said I agree with you mostly.....I don't care for redcat and the panhard is definitely on the wrong side of the truck, WHY can't be sure....I disagree not just anyone can design these things However the fusion does perform better than the regular ascent.... adjustments were made that the marked asked for. And you shouldn't be mad at that. You do realize that you regularly focus your time and energy on creating content showcasing reviewing knock off copy cat Chinese Internet rc crawler parts without the same negative energy you put out towards redcat right? WHY. I had no intention of making some corny stand for redcat but here I am...in my experience redcat sucks....but people like their products, who cares as long as they are enjoying the hobby and learning and growing that's the point right. YOU ARE CONSTANTLY BUYING AND REVIEWING REBRANDED CLONED CHINESE KNOCK OFF PRODUCTS🤣🤣🤣Those newbs will never know that fucking panhard is on the wrong side of the fucking truck but they will figure it out just like the vanquish stance newbs will never know that truck is grossly over priced with garbage tires, a shit ESC and motor. Some of these things are entry level and some are not....we all start somewhere and that's part of the experience...where did you start, or did you just show up to the game knowing why and how to tune your antisquat
Vanquish is becoming over priced garbage ….i have 5 rigs from their line up….
I’ve had so many issues with their kits as far as quality control …plus buying additional components have added issues…
I’ve got 50+ rc cars of Traxxas , axial , RGT , HPI etc and 5 are vanquish…..out of all my rigs vanquish products have given me the most grief …some minor issues that I figure it’s part of the hobby but when I get high quality parts that aren’t machined propel or finished , that gets old and really a sour outlook at their products.
22:35 yes sir 98290 Snohomish County