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What Makes a Tank BROKEN?
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- čas přidán 29. 01. 2024
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Zac has always been an absolute problem
Tanks like zac become unkillable raid bosses with a lead. Any other kind of champ can still lose even if they're fed. The time at which he becomes a raid boss is way too soon in the game
Depending in Toplane he often was strong but jungle really depends on meta but to be fair he always worked in jungle. But currently his problem is also more his sustain then anything else the new items can go crazy on him. But just nerfing him when he was never oppressive on the meta or giga broken would be stupid at this point riot needs to heavily rework items before they go towards champs.
Zac has rarely been meta since his release?
@@rossdoesstuff9717 being meta and being strong are to different things. It is like rectangle and square. Not everything that is strong is meta.
@@actualiygod6782ngl this thread just sounds like skill issue, Zac has very clear and exploitable weaknesses and that’s why he’s not meta
Speaking of Zac being broken. Think they broke him this patch. I’ve seen WAAYYYY too many Zac top lane and they just won’t die. He gets the GA passive and the shed skin where he heals from the slime on the ground. You have to double team him at all times if the enemy Zac knows how to play the champ
Step on the blobs, bait stepping on blobs to avoid cc
Play darius
@@radii6537true. It just feels like if I have to play one character and only one character to counter another, seems like bad game design
I agree but I play Gwen so he dies really fast to me and isn’t an issue lol. 1 auto to each blob then Q4 kills Zac passive
@@jordipernillo3026As a Zac top main, this isn’t actually a great strategy for most top lane champs. There’s a small delay from when the blob goes out of Zac to when it can be picked up / stomped on, and both Zac and his opponent can get on the blob before that time elapses. If both people are standing on Zac’s blobs at the same time, Zac will take priority and pick it up. The easiest way to beat a Zac top is to counterpick him with something like Trundle or another Lethal Tempo champion.
Three screens away?? Sejuani's got ONE long CD dash that's shorter than Leona's E.
Fam. Please. Yone gets you from three screens away. Yasuo and Zac get you from three screens away. If Sejuani gets to you, you've been in the danger zone for a while already.
He's talking about tanks fam
@@cusrsedstuff8043 and used Seju as an example.
Her R@@oskarkazmierczak5533
@oskarkazmierczak5533 ya but compared to other tanks sejs ult and q make it pretty easy to get close to you
Her ult is pretty much 3 screens away and you can follow up easily with W flash Q and beat the target to death with E
Zac without E isn't Zac.
Exactly. Super easy to cancel tbh.
Just nerf the range or make the jump slower, at max level this shit goes from lane to lane
@@GiantBluebirdassuming you have a way to cancel it 👍
Then we shouldn’t have Zac
@@moneyhelping345 the slightest displacement will totally cancel Zac E. If your team lacks this, then you're gonna lose anyway.
seju has one season 3 aah dash. wtf u mean 3 screens?
Also on a longer cooldown than any of Hwei's 9 abilities
Three screens STUN, not 3 screens dash. And then she follows up with a dash. You’re misinterpreting what he’s saying
@@pineapple7024these people always intentionally misinterpret when they know EXACTLY what the point is. its a coping mechanism
@@pineapple7024one screen stun that is actually dodgable and has a shit slow and the dash is just half a screen. Adding the W to the dash does a full screen but by then she did a full skill rotation...... Fucking hell ? This dude is taking such a bad example to describe the issue
@@drakehellstone208
That one screen stun is actually maybe one of the longest distance stuns in the game. 3 screens is an obvious exaggeration. It’s also gigantic and pretty quick to land. I don’t think Sejuani is broken at the moment(even though she is incredibly annoying and could easily become such with *any* tank/ champion buff), but I’m just saying. If you’re going to criticize someone else’s criticism, you do also have to be assessing what they’re saying accurately
Sejuani and Zac have weaknesses. They can indeed engage you from 3 screen afar, but once they comitted, they have no escape. So if they fail that they are basically useless and can be punished.
K'santé got a free pass for being broken because he's not really a tank. K'Santé is a bruiser who build tank items, just like Mundo. So, logically, he HAS to scale to be able to dive 1v5 and still be alive afterward. That said, Mundo is more balanced for three reasons :
- he scales from HP and HP regen, so basically buy a items that do %hp damages + anti-heal and you've coutered him.
- he is weak early game so you have a window to punish him
- he is an old champion, so he has already made all the money Riot needed him to make, so he is regularly nerfed when he becomes obviously too strong.
On top of that, there are the spells. Mundo is basically Olaf but with tank items. K'Santé is Riven with Tank items, and he has the ability to apply bumps and stuns, so even if he is behind, he can still be useful. And he can just dash away even if he misses whatever he tries to accomplish thanks to his anti-CC + 2 dashes in his kit. There's no real way to punish him.
Wdym fix his dashes? Zac is literally one dash. That's all the champion
And that’s all he needs lmao he can get from red buff (and a little bit further) to lane ☠️
@@AndresGomez-rx6cj And it's on like a 16 second cooldown. How is that broken? Talon E has existed forever
Ksante:
@@Deimos620 Talon also is paper thin and has no cc. Talon E puts the terrain on a 160 second CD, is easily cancelable by hard CC and doesn't work with the thicker walls
@@felipdn3329 Ah yes all assassins are balanced then I guess. Also, 160 seconds in League is practically nothing. Hell, flash, which lets you go over ONE wall, is on a 300 second cooldown. Talon E is 160 seconds *per wall*, of which most have multiple segments, allowing forward and back movement. Besides, if Talon is running through the same spot of the jungle every two minutes, there are other issues. And, I haven't looked at the numbers, but I'm assuming that's at rank one specifically. You could argue ANY champ is "easily cancelable by hard CC". Kinda the whole point of CC.
I agree with this, but I also think that damage is becoming a problem when a mundo can literally walk up to anyone in your team and decide that they do not live today.
Dashes are strong on some engage tanks, but other tanks without mobility are also strong because of how many methoods they have for mitigating or bypassing CC.
Like any dash can be killed by a good Morg Q if you have good awareness and positioning. But some tanks can just walk through all the CC and damage you have to throw at them like the overweight kid on Taco Tuesday.
Mundo is one of the weakest tanks right now. I don't know how he is on low elo though.
A good Morgana Q to stop a mobility champ can only happen on low elo where it's very easy to predict how the other person will move.
Olaf who is the other person who can ignore CC is not a tank. Although his design is still bad since it's just point and click outdated Dota character design.
@@nickpapado3211 Mundo will always be weak cause he fundamentally is a tank that just runs at you, there is nothing he can pull out to surprise you. He is a great laner though.
mundo's a juggernaut, not a tank, that's why he does so much damage
@@nickpapado3211 Weakest? Sure he is weak in higher Elo where you can co-ordinate your CC and they play mostly engage tanks there. Thats not mundo's job tho, his job is to get farmed, run at your dps and stat check them. A bit like a fighter without dashes.
It can happen in higher elo as well. And I used it as an example. Most CC can cancel or stop most dashes, the thing that makes dash champions scary in higher Elo is that they won't always dash towards you so landing CC is less cut and dry, and it requires good game sense to know when to CC and when not to.
Wow calling Olaf Dota character design when a lot of early league design that was ripped from Dota still exists in the game beyond Olaf. Besides he is a fighter not a tank.
@@sonicwave779 To be fair he isn't unique kit wise but numbers wise, especially with a stacked heartsteel and the current titanic hydra he is a menace in any close distance trade.
It's the damage, its everything put together. Sej is built for engage, the dash lets her do so. The issue is when the engage is also the damage. Ive had games where a full tank Zac has done 2/3rds of my hp bar in 1 combo full tank. If you want damage, build damage, if you want tank build tank. I should be dying solo to a tank in less than 5 seconds with nothing but a sunfire cape.
The point is that a "tank" is supposed to be the one that has mobility, CC, and no damage, while "juggernauts" should be the ones with damage, CC, and no mobility.
So nope, tanks having mobility is fine because it's part of being a tank. The problem is actually the damage.
With Zac I feel like the champ would lose all the fun of it if they kill his mobility. And he would need a rework
they just need to gut his sustain or cooldown
@@Kywuhi niko!!!
So the solution? Pick poppy
Is there a single video of this guy not complaining about everything but mages ?
???? He's literally not complaining lmao he's defending tanks here.
@@austin31bennett "Defending tanks" by taking away the essential component of playing tank 1. Endure damage. 2. CC a target. If you take away mobility, you can't CC. Where does damage come into this equation? You're either smoking something funny or you're not a tank player. It's so obvious.
Correction: tanks's problem is not mobility as you can see with Orn and Sion both being strong rn and neither of them have a reliable way to get the backline. Their problem is having enough damage to kill you in addition to game changing amount of cc, no champion should have that amount of damage while also can prevent you from playing. K'sante, Sejuani, Zac, Amumu, those champions feels extremely frustrating to face only partially because of their mobility, but even if you played well and dodged the dash engage they still got 3 more hard cc that's not hard to land on you so it feels unfair that they get to have that amount of cc while also being able to kill you solo. Mundo, Thresh, Alistah, Orn is what good tank designs should be, Mundo does ridiculous amount of damage but he has no hard cc so he's easy to kite out once you know his deal, Thresh and Alistah has alot of cc but they don't have the damage to kill you if they go full tank, Orn does damage and has alot of cc but the majority of his cc needs alot of settup that you can literally see coming from a mile away
I see people say tanks are a problem but i havent seen tanks being a problem in over a year now they are almost always weak as hell if you just build against them and if you dont want to build against them just stay away and try to take 1v1s against other people
zac is weak early
@@kyrim1094riot released 33 anti tanks and in reality they are anti-everything. Damage meta exists SOLEY because anti-tank bruisers are the meta. So you can't pick low damage tanks (so riot only buffs certain tanks and they now do tons of damage) and expect to not be turned into a free warmogs passive in a teamfight, because gwen QR combo will heal her 2x as much as you delt on a REAL tank tank.
People don't seem to understand sejuani doesn't have to hit her abilities to succeed, yes her Q is slow yes her ult is relatively slow but for a tank just getting close and gap closing is more than enough. She has guaranteed CC when she is close to you, and her ult even she misses has a huge area slow.
That's why she is constantly picked in pro, that's why azzapp is talking about it. Same goes for Zac is it better if you hit your E as zac? Yes of course but just getting close is enough.
Sejuani isnt picked in pro play without a lot of melle champions on the team. Because she cant reliably proc her e on her own.
She doesn't have guaranteed CC because she needs 4 melee hits to proc E. Her slow in W will help the most but even then the E is in W's range while the ult is barely 30% slow and 400 max damage. She is picked because she can proc multiple E in a team fight. Riot disable and buff her ratios and then she won't be a problem anymore but in which world is it enough to gap close ?
No, getting close is 100% not enough as Seju. If she 1: manages to get close to you with his relatively short range Q, 2: manages to hit both parts of her E, 3: lands two auto attacks on you (or misses E and lands 4), and then 4: stuns you, without once being CCd, without being kited, without you flashing or otherwise getting out, without your team rushing in to fuck her up, you had it coming. You screwed up, got caught out, now you're dead. The champ isn't OP, you just handed a free kill to a tank.
And logically, a tank is a fighter with heavy defense due to armor and heavy weapons. The upside is the fact that they can eat damage and deal heavy blows. The drawback is they move slow and are generally sluggish
No. What you said is the description of Juggernauts like Mordekaiser or Illaoi. but unfortunately League is so ducked up with its classes and champions
@@bringsalavat_ ah that's true I guess
As an Urgot player who just can't land E anymore. There are TOOO MUCH DASHES IN THIS GAME GUYS, COME UP WITH ANOTHER MECHANICS PLS!!!
Point and click stuns 😊
Urgot's E is better reactionary than being an engage a lot of the time
ADCs have the opposite problem. All damage, nothing else. If the champ gains mobility, they become broken because they can mitigate squishiness with items.
LoL.
Adc's actually have
1. Range.
2. Dps scaling from the same stat as abilities.
3. Hard cc
4. Soft cc.
5. Mobility.
6. Stealth/camoflauge.
7. Aoe
8. Immunity frames/invulnerability/dodgeing/projectile shattering
9. Tankiness(yes compair zed to KALISTA, Zeri, jhin, samira, akshan or xayah/draven). Now that your back. Kalista is about 30% tankier than zed.
10. % max health damage/true damage too
11.infinite scaling.
Adcs have it all. They are just lvls down(because someone has to be) and build glass cannon.... well... Again zed with yoomuus vs kalista with shield bow. Kalista gains around 750 hp and has more armor and lifesteal. So I don't think you can call that squishy.
All adcs lack is a good first item and levels. Which they have now. But then someone has to go bot lane. And no one else is THAT op to work vs a cc engage comp well enough(double support was, and honestly will always be great).
@@eon2330 If your Kalista/Zed comparison was so obvious, why aren't we seeing Kalista mid over Zed? Boggles the mind.
@@TheIrrelevantYT Comment aged well with the cokir/trist/lucian mid meta.
@@majorscrub2856 Annoys me to high hell that Riot keeps wanting to make ADC strong. Just let the role go; I'm sick of my top and mid later complaining about marksmen.
I think the mainproblem with any champ is if they have more than three of the main things in league: tankiness, dmg, mobility, and range. Basically if you have 3 of them the champ feels overloaded, like ksante, dmg tankiness and mobility. If it's just dmg and mobility, its an assassin, a problem to some, but not others. A lot of mobile fighters are less tanky than immobile fighters. Same applies to mages, for example when akali or kata could be tanky have high mobility and are still able to deal a sht ton of dmg they were a problem. I personally also think that this is my very 5head way of thinking about this, but it nearly always applies to overloaded champions.
It’s the damage. Mobility/Dashes are inherent to tanks because they are the usual engagers. They’re the one to soak up everything. If you remove dashes from tanks then you’re just killing the champion/ the role. Imagine a Malphite with no R, or a Zac with no E. The thing is tanks have good base damage on their abilities. Not to mention they have items that can deal damage in different ways. Even a tank with few stacks of Heartsteel can already chunk an adc/ control mage with an auto. K Sante is a different animal because he has low cds with good base damage, and he can deal true damage as well. His mobility was never the issue, for me at least.
This is why i love playing Singed and i assume the same for all Singed players. They trynna dash on you to make a play and you just press W, no more plays.
I like Poppys mobility, she can dash on you point and click but she really wants the right positioning to stun
I heavily disagree here. Sejuani and zacs abilities directly scale with health so that damage AND tankiness combined. Remove the damage by health scaling and they would be fine. Amumu is fine because he doesnt have that and he has similar mobility with his 2 bandage toss.
ksantes problem is his ult going through walls imo. its the combination of *everything* that makes that part of it crazy. I genuinely think it should be more akin to poppy slam, where you get bonus damage for slamming someone INTO a wall, not *through* the wall lol. Then from there you can tweak the numbers and give him back some of his tankiness because his ult becomes *engage* not "isolation assassination" lol.
Ksante is not problematic, he is fine
nah dmg is the problem.
yes they should do dmg if they hit everything but whats the point of assasins, burst mages, adcs if a tank will do the same dmg. azzap is a good player but some of his takes are just...
of course ksante dashes are bullshit, and as a tank champs should at most have 1 dash or engage tool, but by definition tanks should not deal dmg. off-tank builds should give you sub-par dmg as a trade.
i played offtank vel recently and it all feels so pointless. theres no build variety. theres no point going full dmg on him cuz offtank deals the same dmg cuz you stay alive longer. fuck tank builds letting you deal dmg. whats the point of anything.
I’m a sej top main nobody reads her kit she scales off of hp that’s why shes oneshotting because you’re now able to hyper scale health and hp regen with these new items
Every role has things they are good at doing and if you look at the best performers in any meta they all look strong obviously.
What do you do about malphite? 90% of his power budget is in his ultimate. He can dash on you from 800 units away, further than most battlemages and adcs.
But if you reduce that or take it away, hes actually just not a champion.
I believe that it shoupd be more a case by case thing. Sejuani works because she has that charge. Zac works becaus eof his sling jump. K'Sante needs to get gutted and locked in a safe because he has way too much mobility he doesn't actually need.
But Sej doesn't deal damage by herself to the point a bruiser or brawler does without building damage. Same for Zac. They deal damage, but it's dealable.
Not sure how tanks are supposed to engage without mobility.
Tanks aren't supposed to engage by definition if you want good game design
They are supposed to be a threath to be nearby, with a high dps and CC to protect the backline from incoming damage and that's why league have it so hard to balance the so called tank class
@@MadScientistSid League wiki has an entire page dedicated to this but basically there are offensive and defensive tanks. There has to be an engager, which is a tank preferably, otherwise you’re looking at two teams that’ll just play to a standstill.
Really good example here is ornn i feel like ornnis perfect just that his full perfect combo can one shot even some bruisers which is nuts
Still remeber my friend saying to me "just kait him, he's a tank" when i was fighting kasante... sure but how with velkoz ? (Since he can ignore my E or dash out of it)
Im curious mr Azzap, how do you feel about Ornn? He is particularly mobile but at the same time his ult and E have clear weaknesses to exploit in locking him down with any hard CC. He's obviously a late game monster but I'm curious how you feel about him compared to other tanks
For me the problem with K'sante is his W dmg reduction, it's the only one that reduces both magic dmg and phy dmg but not only that, it's a dash and also drags you and on top of all of that when he ults it still has dmg reduction.
An ult on K'sante should not have dmg reduction on top of all of those dashes, WW and Irelia had it and was a huge problem and they made it phy only.
He's right that tanks with mobility are problematic. However, that being said, Ksante isn't a true tank, he's more of a bruiser. Zac isn't a real tank either, being designed more as an ap bruiser than tank. Ornn, Darius, Mundo, Malphite, Rammus, Sion, Morde, Voli are all more like true tanks than ksante is as their presence is more of a threat than actually engaging the enemy and bursting them down. Reason why I say morde is because he deals a lot of aoe damage which you cannot ignore, very much what you want in a tank, but cannot actually do what most bruisers do ie sustained chase.
I feel like “killing the mobility” isn’t the entire answer either, number one example to me is chogath, chogath sucks and he has an ok amount of damage and tank, I feel like tanks need some type of counter play other than don’t get hit by said dash or something
Well don't then. Just take away damage if thats the case. Cho has damage but is immobile, ok. Then make seju and zac mobile but do no damage. They are tanks after all, they don't need to.
I feel like having a dash is an essential part of tanks nowadays.
Only dashless tank I can think of is Mundo.
Maybe sion if you don’t count his ult.
(There probably are more im missing)
Cho'gath still smoking his season 0 pack
I wouldn't count Rammus' Q as a dash
Nunu if you play him as tank
Singed
I don't recall if skarner has a dash in his new kit, he's still crazy broken without one
If you count supports, Leona, Taric,
@@raidenshibou2054 Rammus R is a dash and Leona E is kinda one. But yeah there are a few.
Dejuan’s is probably the least mobile mobile tank but yeah tank mobility is a bigger problem. Sure malphite ult is super impactful but after that he’s kinda just there and easy to ignore, compared to ksante and Zac who have dashes on a less than 10 second cd and deal %health damage for no reason and have more cc than any other tank just because of how low their cool downs are. Sejuani is more like ornn where you can get engaged on pretty far away but they actually have to hit their stuff to be useful because of cooldowns.
This I agree 100%. I play tank junglers with no mobility in their kits, and the number one thing I build for is mobility.
Carries kite, tanks engage. This is a delicate balance and whenever one class can access too much mobility (like old Stridebreaker, Galeforce), they become overpowered.
You CAN remove tank damage, but that feels worse than removing one of the other things. If sej could dash on you from 3 screens away, stun you, and you can't kill her, but she barely did any damage to you, it'd be balanced but it'd feel like shit for the sej
This is something I have to disagree with. Without mobility, it would be to easy for priority targets to kite tanks endlessly either with their own mobility or alternatively their range. Tanks generally are slower than most other champions on top of that so removing their mobility would mean they would need to have even more tackiness as they move slowly towards the target or else have more movement speed to actually catch up to the target. Tanks should be more cantered around lower sustained damage as they should be, in theory, alive a lot longer to compensate. Without being able to inflict CC onto priority targets, why not pick something like a Vi or Xin that can dive them, CC them, and even if they die chances are the prio target is dead (barring peel from support, top, etc).
Ah yes tanks are slower but if you come auto distance to them you die.
The problem is they do more than just the priority target anyone lacking mobility just gets rolled
It's not that tanks can't have mobility, it's that tanks can't have everything. You can have mobility if you give up other aspects, like damage or cc. Or limited mobility like Maokai for example. But if you have everything like K'Sante for example, that's just an overloaded kit.
Wow, a melee champion can't solikill a ranged one, what a surprise!
The tank's job is to soak damage, not to oneshot adcs
It is a problem if it becomes mandatory to build a %-pen item in mid and bot + cleaver top on bruisers against a single tank in the enemy team.
Im an old player coming back since they got rid of mythics, after seeing the new items my first thought was "wow this is gonna be another tank meta for sure lmao"
You are just slowly turning every champ into velkoz, because thats who you like
I complain about zac does that mean I'm turning him into my main (aphelios)? showmaker complains about k'sante does that mean he's turning him into katarina or w.e the champ he used to main? Zac and especially k'sante have been a problem constantly either turbo useless or giga broken
I complain about zac does that mean I'm turning him into my main (aphelios)? showmaker complains about k'sante does that mean he's turning him into katarina or w.e the champ he used to main? Zac and especially k'sante have been a problem constantly either turbo useless or giga broken
No dude, pick more dashing champions into my vex but don't argue tanks with 9000 mobility, pointnclick unmissable cc, pointnclick dashes, 20% hp magic shield, aoe burn with healing, auto attack cripple and burst damage akin to assassins are balanced.
There is no class in the game that is as easy to play and as efficient.
@@ambiguousspotlightofinsani6764 sejuani has one (1) dash on a 10+ second cooldown
See I would agree with this if it wasn't for the fact that non-mobility tanks still fucking destroy you and survive for insane amounts of time while shrugging off CC.
If you took away every dash on a tank then every tank would be cho'gath.
And besides, most tanks this meta are feast or famine due to the abundance of %max hp dmg, true damage, a mix of both and stacking teamwide resistance shred.
Cho'Gath can literally one shot you at any time in the game after level 6. I have never seen 1 person call him unbalanced ever. He's the slowest and probably the least mobile tank in the game yet he makes it work because he has damage and CC and ONLY damage and CC
When a (overall lifespan of the game in mind) NEW champion needs a rework immediately you know you fucked up
Almost every champ got one type of CC (Slow/Root/Stun)
Mobility became the go to for riot and people playing the game
Mobility is the most broken stat to actually have in the game
Such a L take on Sejuani. She doesn't dashes on you from 3 screens, she can engage on you at best and follow up with R or W depending on the situation but Q is a 1 time per fight engage tool and her passive is gone if the fight goes on for too long. She has a 8 seconds E cool down per target so she is really bad in 1v1. She isn't a tank like Ornn or Sion who will eat damage forever neither. She is tanky but not in the extreme.
Thank god only a couple of tanks has all those, you know what would be a nightmare a tank with yasou like skills , that does 2k damage in 5 seconds and yell out ",I WILL NOT YIELD" that shit would be crazy, thank riot for not adding that in to the game
I think volibear is a good example his q is giving so little amount of ms, most champions can just outrun or outdash it.
Run page name is gold
I play mostly tank and mostly champs without mobility. And atm im not enjoying the strength of slows. It feels like slows atm is so strong and is permanent so you dont even have to be good at kiting to kite a champ with no mobility. Tank items need more slow res and tenacity. Tanks are supposed to soak pressure. But slows like rylais just cripple the kind of champs i play so hard i might aswell just be a super minnion
Yea I don’t think that’s the main problem, I still think the damage is the bigger problem + the one easier to fix and it wouldn’t completely kill some champs, because hardnerf Zac’s E and it he wouldn’t be played ever again, also Tanks need to engage somehow, I mean yea slanted definitely so much mobility but most tanks have a single way of getting in and that’s it and imo that’s how it should be because otherwise they wouldn’t ever be viable cuz they wouldn’t even be able to engage
Amumu with ROA and fimble is insanely underrated
Every class has something they should in theory lack. Assassins lack durability and dps, adcs lack burst and durability. Tanks either havedamage and are juggaurnauts lile Geran and Darius, or engage mobility and cc. When you give the engage tank damage they are just a better diver.
Things like Ornn e and Galio e sre good tank mobility imo. They are extremely telegraphed, because its not super detrimental if they miss the dash, since they are so tanky, and it becomes very detrimental to whoever they are hitting bc of the cc. Sej q, gragas belly bump, those are bad tank mobility. Too instant and immediate cc.
as a Zac top main, I think that we should instead buff his e to be point and click and have 1000 bonus range at max rank, and also vayne players should burn for 100 percent max health damage true damage per second near zac.
The whole reason they're called tanks in video games is because TANKS do crazy damage they can withstand crazy damage but move slow and take their time to reload shots
Ever since i started to play this game i never realized why people played something else than tanks and claimed from lvl 30 in season from my first 10 promo games to plat 2, while playing every support full tank, nami for example :D
I thought support items were weakest items in the game so i never saw reason to get one shotted, and your good heals and ap damage does not help you when they take you out first so you cant heal and stun the team
I mean... no? Tanks need mobility to actually engage targets and stick to people given the fucktillion dashes everything has. The problem is damage in general is so high, and tanks still need to be able to kill if they successfully engage and stick to a target for long enough. Rito only seems to know how to balance things via damage, though, so this issue is unlikely to be fixed.
This just means you can't have all of those things. A tank can have mobility if it doesn't have damage or doesn't have cc. Any combination should work in theory.
The way I d balance K Sante so that he is a hyper mobile tank is to kilka his dmg, his ult instead of dmg gives all of his abilieties some form of CC, he completly gets Stones in lane but i'm team rights he is very annoying but not deadly
In low elo volibear embodies this problem, he has fantastic CC and damage up close, and an ultimate that’s a free penta in iron.
Same reason that irelia, yas, yone, riven, and jax always serve as elo inflaters. Creating mobile damage dealers is the style of jhin with move speed, or kalista, with conditional dashes works so well because it limits the self enagage and still leaves the champ vulnerable to being bursted out by 4/5 enemy players
But thats just the entire vanguard class. Thats my favorite class
Tankiness, mobility, dmg and CC.
What is tank without tankiness? What is a tank without CC or any disruptive abilities? How tank can play against champs like Zeri without mobility?
Tank shouldn't be able to recive no dmg and slowly but surely just murder you with raw dmg or with tank stats scalling abilities (which is absurd btw). If you want to make an argument that tanks would be too reliant on team... well, if you want to deal dmg but not getting one-shotted, play brusier. That's how it should work, you picking tank, you should know what you are signing up for.
I can only understand ability to fight other tanks so the laning phase isn't the most boring farm-fiesta in the world but other than that they shouldn't be able to get on top of you AND kill you without bigger problems.
the tank role itself is being a sandbag, suck all the damage from the enemy team while the adc (aka the one that builds up straight fckn damage) cleans up the fight.
but now if the tank can walk up to you, suck all the damage, laugh in your face and kill 3 people without his team holding his back, then we have a problem of balance
yeah tank dashes need to just be slower. like Aurelion sol W speed. it should side stepped 90% of the time unless they play around corner vision, other CC, or predict. a Zac should never be able to land his E outta nowhere on a lane gank. he should use E to gap close and then land Q.
Zac E is bullshit for so long tbh. He gets this jump for nothing and with no risk attached and it allows him for BS ganks and engages
Zac E actually has a long travel time and is possible to dodge on reaction. It depends on the players but if you play Zac, you will see some people being able to dodge nearly every E even from fog of war.
So your point stands but I would argue it's already true, you just need good mechanics and reaction time.
Damage is most definitely the problem with tanks. Take Nautilus as an example. He is a great tank that is able to engage, stun and play his role as a tank. I have never seen anyone complain about Nautilus since he is made how a tank should be made. Tanks should contribute to team fights greatly but shouldn't ever do enough damage to easily solo kill you when they are building full tank and are impossible to kill themselves. And when you add mobility and sustain on top of that they are extremely broken.
Okay but how would tanks actually do anything then? So many champs have so many dashes that they would be completely useless and just kited forever, no?
Every tank has a dash and needs one because every champ has %hp or true damage or both so tanks need a way to get away from that if you remove tanks mobility you have to remove the %hp true damage
me and my 4 teammates trying to kill volibear in min 15 in our base...couldnt even come close
I don’t think tanks should be put dps’ing the ADC, regardless of how well they play it, or how ahead they are, when they build tanky.
I think its per champion basis...
Ksantes problem isnt mobility but tankyness and damage, he shouldnt have been tabk but a juggernaut version of yasuo.
Zacs and Sjuanis main strength are specificaly long range engage as they are junglers and they are incapable of ganking anything with even one ward.
Sej isnt even a problem honestly she can't stay in a fight and live untill he rnext rotation, she needs to dosengage.
Zacs problem is that his sustain is positive instead of neutral or even minorly negative. He uses his hp instead of mana and needs to play minigame to get it back. Problem is that after some time he starts to gain hp form it instead of mitigating loss, coupled with the fact that his W is supper spammable for decent damage.
I would say that tank is balanced when he can catch a carry and preper them to be eaten by the rest of the team, which is why a lot of them have %hp damage as its deals less damage to squishes, but also they give them big base damages and thats the problem.
Tbh, I still think damage is the issue. If you take away all of the movility from tanks they will no longer be viable because they won't be able to catch anybody with their stun. No qay to engage for the team, etc. So still, damage us the issue.
Look at heroes of the storm. Tabks are as mobile there as other heroes however they deal little to no dmg and nobody complains about them.
With the EXPLICIT exception of Ksante, I disagree. I think tanks DO do too much damage, I say as someone who plays almost exclusively tanks. I don't see why removing their mobility is the solution, it's like saying "ONLY tanks can't be mobile" then only tanks can't engage, then there's no point to tanks. Dealing like 50% of someone's health as poppy level 2 makes me feel like a bad person, but having tools to punish positioning and engage is what makes tanks fun
Remenber when ornn w give him shield they should remove ksante shield also
tanks should have some kind of mibility but absolutely no way to oneshoot by himslef someone, in every game tanks are a problem bcs of damages
Image of ksante slowly fading in 😂
Ksante has been beyond broken. YES HE IS. But there is Yone? AP/AS/TRUE damage in one champion? HE IS PROBLEM TOO?
ksante is a bruiser building tank items
thats why i play rell,at least nobody can blame me for playing a broken champion or something,that champ is really good at what she can do and really bad at what she cant.
and its actually really easy to counter her to
What do you mean? They need some sort of mobility in order to engage.
Yes, having all 3 is a problem. But between cc, engage and damage, damge is the only thing thats not essential to them.
I mean I think it’s both, it’s mobility and damage. The issue with attacking the dashes themselves is that feels really bad for the people that play those champions. Like i fucking hate zac with a passion, but even I realize if they made zac’s e slower or cover less distance, it’d make the champ feel so bad to play. It’d theoretically balance the champion but to the detriment of the players who enjoy them.
They nerfed anti-tank items and buffed tank items. So if a tank gets super fed, and you aren't playing vayne, varus, kaisa, or kog maw, the game is just over, doesn't matter how fed you get on adc the tank will soak it all no problem.
you cant really get rid of the mobility on the engage tanks, but tanks in general should not do damage. should maybe beat yuumi and stuff but should not be able to ever do the most damage in the game as a tank
So from i understood the problem is Ksante existing 😂
I'd argue the damage is more problematic then...have them dish out decent damage throughout the time afforded to them by their tankiness and not just segregate tanks to immobile stun and engage bots
I still prefer the old Sejuani who had a monster broken Ranged AOE Stun with her ult and felt incredibly weak once she got on you.
I just loved playing her mid, able to 2 shot squishies mid to lategame.
"Tanks are problematic because of mobility" is actually pretty true PER SE, but this is also a consequence and not a cause to the problem. Mobile tanks are not a problem by itself, but how this games scales as a whole is a problem... When tanks scale on par with bruisers and "keeping the tank alive" becomes a viable strategy in the game, it becomes the standard that only mobile tanks are played in the meta.
In DOTA 2 tanks are mandatory, but not for scaling issues, but because of engage and team fight initiative issues. In LOL, the mage or the jungler needs to engage? WHY????
Yone and Ekko both have those 4 things.
Sejuani IMO is perfectly fine, it’s problematic, when a champ like Zac, who has dashes, hard cc, mobility, damage AND *SUSTAIN*
Sejuani atleast when you deal dmg to her, it sticks, Zac you have to kills 3x and then still have his passive to deal with.
Ksante is a similar example except instead of healing, he’s permanently either shielded, taking reduced dmg from W or you’re cc’d so you can’t do dmg to him.
Tbh I’d be cool with the mobility if they didn’t have damage too
I still remember losing to a Sej 1v1 as WARWICK cuz yeah that happened for some reason. Yeah. Get stat checked by a Sej while she’s getting initiated on just cuz of all that max health damage.
Yeah but even most top laners literally have more base movement speed than ADCs is the problem. They just have more of everything imo. Its so much easier and fun to play.
Leauge is the game where champions to be more orginal needs to have more weird combinations, it would be boring if every thank was built this way, sejuani wouldn't be a problem if she has no dashes as azzap says or no dmg as comunitty says, but now she seems to be unplayable into having both, so i think that thank having dashes is ok sejuani has dash, ornn has dash, tahm kench too, kasantr having fuc.. 3 this is off topic kasanre desing is something different
I mean, the damage is still a problem. Braum has plenty of mobility with his e but doesn't do any damage and he's fine. Same with Nautilus. Both have mobility but lack damage and they are better champs for it.
Rell has a movespeed buff+jump, but since she deals 0 DMG, it's okay
I feel like this guy is trying to say everything is broken in this game except his Vel’Koz. League players will never stop complaining