Hobby Lathe Machining - The Cost Of Tooling
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- čas přidán 6. 08. 2024
- G'day everyone,
I often get asked about the cost of tooling for a mini lathe. It is easy to think that tooling can be expensive, and that can certainly be true. You can easily spend more on tooling than you will spend on the lathe itself, however I do not think that it is a good or useful metric for estimating how much you will realistically be spending to get into the hobby.
From my first hand experience starting out with nothing I know that the cost of getting started is much less, and with careful planning the overall cost of tooling can be spread out over the course of years. In this video I will go over how much I spent to get started and when I bough the tooling.
Cheers
#machining #DIY #minilathe
Lathe Tooling Cost
Timestamps
0:00 - Introduction
1:16 - Tailstock Drill Chuck
2:09 - Centre Drills
2:40 - Live Center
3:08 - Lathe Cutting Tools
4:20 - Way Oil Lubrication
5:15 - Starting Off Costs
6:24 - Quick Change Tool Post
8:21 - Dial Test Indicator
8:50 - Lathe Chucks
9:37 - Tailstock Die Holder
9:57 - DIY Lathe Upgrades
10:28 - Conclusion And Total Costs I Have Spent On Tooling - Věda a technologie
Right on point. I would add one thing for those who want to use carbide tooling. Try the ground "for aluminum" cutting inserts. They are razor-sharp and cut steel like a champion. They are still carbide after all. The positive rake and increased sharpness makes them need far less power and rigidity which is ideal for our small machines.
dunno if this is good advice but i think it makes sense. The roughing inserts are meant for full engagement cuts in the harder metals in the group they're meant for which is way overkill for these
I've seen some people certainly make them work and get great results. Personally I never have, I've found the edge to be a little too brittle but that shouldn't discourage anyone from trying. Cheers
@Artisan Makes I have had excellent experience with them, but they are a little more brittle at the edge. They don't love interrupted cuts. HSS is probably still the king for interrupted cuts. The situations where I think they can't be beat are surface finish on materials that hate to give a nice surface finish, and those times when I need to take very fine cuts to hit an exact dimension. The ability to take off one thou without push off or taper due to tool pressure is a game changer.
@@brianmoore1164 ... i just hand grind HSS, i like the ability to get any angle, shape, sharpness etc.
HSS will get you the very best finishes in my opinion, like a mirror, and you can take cuts much less than a thou with a properly sharp HSS tool.
To me, carbide is for production work and removing lots of material, HSS any day for high quality work especially on less rigid small lathes.
Of course HSS means more work sharpening, you can't just swap an insert like you can with carbide.
@Wiz Rom My answer is use both. A right tool for the right job kind of thing. I keep HSS on hand and use it when it suits my job. Same as the carbide. I even use the standard un-ground carbide when the job allows it to work well. They all have their place. What surprises me most lately is how durable, reliable, fast, and convenient the "for aluminum" ground inserts are on a very wide range of materials. I have cut tool steels with them and they hold up to it just fine.
IMO the best upgrade for any Chinese machine tool is to completely take it apart and thoroughly clean and lubricate it. Cleaning seems to be the corner that nearly all Chinese manufacturers cut - there's inevitably some swarf, grinding dust and nasty old machine oil lurking in all the nooks and crannies. That rubbish will affect the smooth operation of your machine and drastically reduce its lifespan.
Smaller lathes really benefit from being bolted to something really solid. If you can scrounge a thick steel plate or joist or pour a concrete slab, you'll really see the benefit in surface finish and cutting capacity.
Yes, in my experience for the youngins here (me included) don't expect to buy a lathe and have it work. Expect to NEED to take it apart, get your hands dirt and greasy, and might as well do so so you can really learn the machine. It's maintenance and knowledge put together and also a project planner because without a doubt you'll find someone wrong that you'll want to fix yourself now that you have a lathe..... Now where did I put that damn mini mill.
Agree 100%! Step one is a good thorough cleaning. I swear it is like they add extra grinding dust.
Great post as usual. Last year I bought a mini lathe and, as I have machining experience and had the money, I bought a big selection of accessories. Then after a few months bought some more as what I was trying to do needed them. One item I could never do without is a faceplate. If you don't have a mill you can surface all kinds of things with the right fixturing. Also: Brazed carbide tooling is much cheaper than insert, and can be honed very sharp with a small diamond hone. It might be a better choice for a beginner.
A good intermediate point between keyed and keyless chucks are spanner-keyed chucks. They can be rapidly adjusted by hand, and then a pin spanner handle provides the leverage for loads of clamping torque. These are the chucks I use at my work as a full time lathe operator; my boss has said he pays about $175 Canadian for them. So not cheap, but really nice to use.
Man, it’s such a joy to see a new video released from you!
Makes a perfect end of the weekend ✌️😊
Great video and excellent advice to the newbies out there . Enjoyed very much, cheers!
I am always impressed with your knowledge, experience in machining, and your ability explain and forthright recalling of hindsight (things tried, causes of poor results and corrections taken). Coupled with your commitment to improving these types of hobby/home machines, your videos (I am certain) are helping droves of people find capabilities they thought beyond their or their equipment's abilities.
Many people would lose interest in improving their lathe and/or mill, and instead "pop" for a "bigger and better" one. But coming from a family of machinists (yes, even my mother ran a lathe back in the day, her father had a shop) I know it is a source of pride as a machinist to be known to be able to produce accurate, well finished parts on "old, greasy, well used machines". There are fewer true old-school (at heart) machinists around.
I am reminded of the story of when Ford bought Jaguar and discovered the machines in use by the (inhouse tool & die, and line setup) machinists were old and contained a large amount of shims and backlash. The Ford engineer exclaimed, "we have to replace these machines with newer, modern machines"! To which the machinists responded, "If you replace 'my' machine you better be prepared to replace me." I don't know if it is true, or of what finally happened. The company has changed hands more times, and I am sure the machines were replaced as well as the machinist. But when I heard the story, I understood what the machinists were really saying.
Even though your (and many home & hobby) machines are not old, they are relatively new (not like the British and American made, virgin gray iron made during and after 'the war'). They are made of a mixture of recycled iron and other metals, and perhaps some Australian iron or, and quickly machined and built as economically as the Chinese are able. So a lot of these machine's capability is compromised at the factory. It is up the the machine's owner to tease out the machines remaining capabilities, and you're showing how to do this in a very practical way.
Thank you for posting these great videos!
Another great video in your series. Giving me a lot of thoughts on when I rejig my garage to look at mini lathe rather than a larger unit as still some much can be done on it and much less space/investment at the start up.
One of the best things I ever made for my 7x12 minilathe was a 7 inch faceplate.
It is just a round piece of 10mm thick aluminium plate, bolted onto a piece of 20mm diameter shaft so it can just go straight in the stock 3 jaw chuck in an instant.
I have drilled and tapped holes whenever, to suit different jobs.
Basically, if I needed to face, or bore, any weird or large object I just attach it to the faceplate. It almost turns the 7x12 lathe into a bigger lathe.
Great video as always. I think it applies well to all lathes and not just mini lathes. For the most part at least, most of its relevant to me and the 13x28” southbend I bought to learn hobby machining on.
Great video, thanks. Looking to get in on the fun fairly soon so this was super useful ☺️
Good advice for newbie's. 👍 One thing I might add is to look for good deals on used second hand items if possible. You can save a ton of money and often get a better product. We are very lucky here in the UK to have an abundance of quality old tooling. 😎
this ^. If you keep your ear to the ground you'd be surprised how many job lots of "grandpa died and we have all this machining stuff..." you'll find
@@KS_ChemEng It's sad but true. In my experience the relatives of the deceased often want whole workshop's cleared as soon as possible so will practically give stuff away. 😔
Very good points. Nicely put!!! :)
Thanks, great info. Well done on all your videos.
Where do you get your stock for turning and milling?
Buying tools is one thing but the stock is either a scrappies and hope you get lucky or spending quite a few dollars for brass stock and bar stock.
could you give the average punter an idea where to source stock?
Keep up the good work!
yeah, not that expensive when you start out, but you just keep "accumulating" tooling as you go, so the inventory ends up having quite a bit of value. I recently let the smoke out of my small lathe, and I seriously considering just upgrading the lathe, as a new motor was about 1/4 of the price of what the lathe originally cost me. But when I worked out what it was going to cost to replace all the tooling, I put the new motor in it.
Simply outstanding and accurate!👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
Excellent video for beginners!
From a hobby standpoint that's not a lot of money spent over a couple years.
Thanks for sharing,
Cheers
Vote up, nice video clip, thanks for sharing it :)
If you have a 3D printer you can get away with making and printing a lot of things that don't need the rigidity. I designed my own die holder with an M2 taper and it fits perfectly in my tailstock and gives perfectly square threads :).
Currently working on another big 3D printed jig for the lathe right now.
I think you are right and I gave you a thumbs-up. But I hope he doesn't take your advise, and here is why.
The value I find in this channel is in its focus on getting the most out of an economical mill and lathe. This type of pursuit is becoming a lost art, yet is a highly (under) valued one. I would hate to see the channel's focus diffused to include additive machining and the inevitable collateral of CAD and CAM softwares, parameters, CNC electronics, and types of plastics....
Those things can be found in a bunch of other competing channels.
This channel is a unique gem focused on something that is part of an old-school machinist's ethos, to produce a finished part that is (seemingly) "beyond" the capabilities of the machine it was produced on.
Learn what is being taught here, and apply it in your own shop and tools, perhaps share it on your own channel (I'll be happy to check it out and likely subscribe to it, as I do a fair bit of printing with carbon whisker ABS).
@@RobertLBarnard I appreciate the comment but I don't exactly know what you're trying to say by "Learn what is being taught here". I have a lathe and a 3d printer. Why would I choose to not use one because it shows ingenuity when I believe it's even more interesting when you can get them to combine with each other and compliment one another.
You definitely have the right to tell the channel how you think he should do things, because you are the subscriber, the person who makes him money and if he doesn't want to take your opinion then it's because a lot more people disagree and want more than just this. I'm happy either way.
@@XxIcedecknightxX Okay, I see where you are coming from.
I wasn't telling you you shouldn't combine 3D print with your traditional work. I said I hoped this channel wouldn't start getting into combining 3D printing with the traditional subtractive metal machining, as it would (imho) take away from how he (the channel's owner/creator) has bootstrapped his shops capability remarkably well in a traditional sense.
Its probably a generational thing (I'm an old man, lol) and I like the purity, (self imposed) disciplined constraints, and narrow scope of his content.
Or perhaps I've been into "3D printing" for too long (working on them when I had a CAD/CAM consultancy 30 years ago with GE, Andersen Corp. Ford, and Boeing).
I agree with you the capabilities of todays open source hardware and software are really exciting and bring a lot of capability to a home workshop and even non-technical craft people. It would not surprise me to find 3D printers in homes out-number lathes OR mills in homes my 10X or more. So it makes sense to combine them in most people's projects, as well as yours, and mine.
Of course your opinion is as valid as mine; as we each "validate" our own opinions. But I may have a different take on which way the owner/creator values our opinions.
This is his channel and (within a few guidelines set down by CZcams) he can run it anyway that pleases him. He may decide to do the opposite of what his audience requests. Like me, he may not really care about getting more subscribers. Or like someone with humor and intellect like a Dr. Feynman, have a better idea to show his students.
Ours are just opinions and for some odd reason, I felt compelled to share mine with you. You're perfectly free to tell me, "respectfully sir, go to hell" and I would laugh, slap you on the back, and but you a beer.
Very well said. I would also recommend against a tailstock die holder as a "must have" as I've found you can rig it by using the tailstock and a flat bit of steel to align a standard die. also poke - get a cheap second hand horizontal band saw. if you can find the space for it you won't look back. I don't work for a bandsaw company I promise, just it's painful seeing you hacksaw through super thick material to then have to spend a lot of time on intermittant cuts to face them.
I know exactly what you’re talking about, makes me cringe anytime I see him cutting some stock using a hand saw. Don’t even have to get a full-size bandsaw that takes up space in the garage. Recently picked up a secondhand handheld cordless Dewalt bandsaw for $40. This thing is less than 2 feet long and takes up almost no space on the shelf. What a timesaver, Have no idea how I got by without one all these years :-)
@@davidlee-mf5yf I know right! when I got mine I thought it would probably rarely get used. turns out it's one of the more used tools I have
@@KS_ChemEng for sure, you don’t know what you’re missing until you get it and start using it... I say we should all pitch in and buy him one of those portable bandsaws 😂
The hacksaw is just a gag designed to get your goat. Anyone who watches This Old Tony knows that hobby machinists can cut stock with a good karate chop!
G'Day Mate
I dont know if you know how good it is to watch tech/hobby CZcams videos from Australia.
As a total beginner with a limited budget it is extremely frustrating to be confronted with constant references to products that are not available in our market or the price of which is so inflated locally that they are simply not viable options. Thank you!
After watching several of your videos Im seriously considering the purchase of a mini lathe as opposed to a second hand larger lathe because of their affordability and the fact that I can go ahead right now rather than trying to accumulate more funds and waiting for the right deal.
Thanks again.
Auziali
Great video I think your prices are very close, even here in Canada. Thanks for sharing.
Well, of course for a starter you need at least some way of cutting the raw materials (saw, cutter), files, screwdrivers, hexkey-set(s), some way of scribing on the materials and I really recommend to have some kind of drill besides the lathe.
Other tools I'd recommend is getting good light and probably some magnifieing tools, vaccuumcleaner dedicated for the chips (you don't want to get all that mixed in your house).
Also: old cloths to clean, brushes, machinest-hamer or some other hamer with soft protection on it so you can make a machinist-hamer later yourself.
Probably also dies and tapping-set, 'sharpies' or some kind of marker-pens and some bigger things to measure your stock before cutting it (did I mention the saw?) and of course something to hold your materials when cutting them to lenght.
On a bigger lathe you can do a lot of cutting in the lathe/chuck because you can put it through the end of the spindle but with the small lathes you need to make it fit in the lathe and even the small size of half a meter you can buy stock in is too long to fit.
With insert tooling the newby has to tread carefully as not all tooling sets are created equal and most sets come with holders that you will rarely if ever use . For small lathes stick to insert shapes like Rhombic and triangle as they more common in the small size the holders use , require less power to run and many small boring bars use the same tips . If you can stick with one shape it makes buying replacement inserts easier and cheaper .
Unfortunately many newcomers to the hobby see insert tooling as a shortcut to better machining or “if I use inserts I don’t have to learn how to grind HSS tools” this is unfortunate because this skill is at the core of all lathe work and buying tools won’t make you a better machinist- learning new skills will !
My list would be :
(Other than the lathe itself - many come as a kit with chucks , steadies etc so choose wisely as it can save you a pile of money )
A small bench grinder
Some HSS blanks or a pre ground set to get you going
A cheap dial indicator or dti and stand - dti has the benefit of allowing the bore of a part to be clocked .
A live centre
A drill chuck
A Centre drill
A decent set of drill bits
A tap and die set
A tailstock die holder and a spring loaded tap follower .
A parting off blade and holder .
Most important thing is a set of safety glasses or face shield ( should be purchased before the machine )
One more important thing is to really think about what you really need I have seen many newcomers dive in at the deep end and spend thousands of dollars on stuff they thought they needed because they seen that someone on CZcams had one and they end up with another workshop ornament .
Thanks I’m in the market to buy a new lathe. Most informative.
Keep an eye out on the second hand market. You can come across old machines with tooling for the price of brand new mini machines sometimes.
When you buy a lathe make sure, if possible to get one that has a distance between centers that is at least twice the swing of the lathe. E.g. for a lathe that will turn 7 inches (175mm) you want a lathe that has 14 inches (350mm) between centers. The reason this is important is that by the time you install a chuck on the lathe spindle and a drill chuck with a drill installed in the tail stock the space for your work piece starts to get cramped on a lathe with a shorter bed.
Tools for a toy lathe cost a magnitude more than tools for a real lathe.
Because for toy lathe, you need the very best, positive rake angle tools to keep cutting force low, to get decent surface finish.
Happy New Year
In Aust where did you buy the Valvoline 68 Hydraulic oil? Thanks
Starting out with pre-ground HSS bits is definitely a valid option, but if you have a grinder, I'd suggest buying blanks and grinding them yourself. It isn't hard, and there are plenty of highly detailed videos to learn from. The first thing I was taught in my lathe training was how to grind a tool.
For standard OD turning operations, you can do everything you want with HSS in my opinion. For threading and ID operations, insert tooling is the way to go though, no question. Brazed carbide tooling is also an option, but I would recommend against it.
I'm not sure if grinding your own HSS tools is a good idea for a newbie.... my home-ground tools stink.
@@edgeeffect In my experience it's kind of hard to really screw up. I've seen some really bad ones, but in most cases it was just that someone didn't bother to put a nose radius on.
The cost for a stable work surface should also be factored in as well.
Out of curiosity, how did you align the lathe originally without a micrometer or dial indicator of any kind?
By eye, I machined a pointed cone in the chuck and popped in the dead centre and lined it up by eye. Certainly not the best method but it got me in close enough. Cheers
I would recommend buying a good set of non-Asian made twist drill bits. Domestic bits are usually the way to go. The Asian made (especially the ones made of Chinesium) can be a problem as they tend to be very brittle. I live in the States, and we have some very good bits, but in most industrialized countries there are good companies that make theirs to high standards. These I would understand.
As someone who wants to get into machining parts, which is a better starting tool: the mill or the lathe?
For round parts a lathe, for square parts a mill. The mill can also be used as a lathe if you don't need single point thread cutting capabilities and the tailstock by installing a chuck to the spindle and tools to the vise
Lathe absolutely
Most definitely a lathe. It's is the king of machine tools, and with some thought can perform many machining operations that might not be immediately obvious. A lathe can quite easily be used for milling smallish parts with the addition of a suitable vertical table to the cross slide, whereas a small benchtop mill will be very limited on the size of parts it can turn.
"it depends" but lathe. you can do more with a lathe if you get creative with the setups. get as heavy a lathe as you can afford. I bought like 4 small lathes before I bought one which was big enough to do actual work and not just shake a fist at plastic. (note my "good lathes" cost £50 ish each. incredible bargin but it's just by keeping an eye out on fb marketplace)
You will eventually need both i think. They can each substitute the other a bit, but will do so poorly, especially these small machines.
Conventional wisdom is lathe first, but i think it depends mainly on what parts you want to make.
I recall reading elsewhere that machining isn’t a poor man’s hobby. By gosh they were right about that!
Bigger 4-jaw chuck, HSS, Carbide, grinder, centres, QCTP, drills, stock. Measuring kit. Mill, cutters, clamps, machine vice. It all adds up!
@@daveys Milling is certainly a lot more expensive than lathe work, thats one thing for sure.
@@artisanmakes I’ve not dared to do a calculation (and may never do so) but they’re both costly hobbies! I reckon that I’m in for a couple of thou on each.
Nice vid! I know this video was specifically focused on tooling, but you're not making any useful parts without measuring them. Will you make a video about measuring tools for beginners as well? I'm sure it would be very appreciated.
Yeah I too would love to know this. dial guage and calipers don't seem to be all I need. I am a 100% noobie to machining but I am soon getting int oit.
where u get one from
Ebay
⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
The double the cost of the machine comes from higher end machines for a normal shop. As to truly use the full machine the tooling is going to cost that much. Obviously not important if you’re not trying to hit perfect thousandths or produce parts in a production environment.
This is correct, but I've seen this figure thrown about for mini lathe tooling too
I would cover up that motor.
Tiny chinese lathe, if its your first one, is gateway to turning. You learn why it needs upgrade, how to do different works and how service and repair your items. Its not suitable for industrial work but is ok as hobby. Owned like this several years but need bigger.
I dont like hydraulic oil. It has additives that irritate the skin and eyes.
I just use a normal 20w50 car engine oil, never had any skin or eye problems and the smell is fine too.
I would like to add, 12mm tooling will not work with a Mini Lathe, i have a 7 x 14 mini lathe, they work on yours because you have a Modified Toolpost and riser block, 10mmm is the limit of size for Mini Lathes. 8mm is the best for adjustment in Height. I know i was that Very Unhappy guy who bought 12mm for my Mini Lathe.
You mini lathe must be slightly different to mine then, I was using the 12mm tools a long time before I redid the cross slide and made the riser block.
Kinda painful watching that carbide creep through it's cut. You're treating it like HSS.
They are VERY different in red hardness (durability) and rake angle (chip formation).
Carbide "prefers" heavy pressure. Double or triple your feed rate and you'll see it "come to life".
You can only do so much with this lathe and it's probably pushing it to its limit. I still get better results with carbide than hss. A lot of the optimal feeds and pressure kinda go out the window when you use a mini lathe. Cheers
@@artisanmakes I understand the limitations you're up against. Depth of cut is very limited by the raw power @ the headstock. But try ramping up the feed rate, it'll give a much faster, cleaner and more predictable cut.
You'll snap the belt or break the plastic gears if you have them if you push it too hard with carbide on the mini lathe. Ask me how I know.
The difference between cheap and expensive drill chuck is run out, cheap chuck will have run out like 0,15mm and expensive one like 300$ will have run out like 0,02mm
I agree, a german made rohm chuck and its run out is in that region, whilst the import one is about 0.075 or so. Granted this might not apply to a manual situation but when ive done cnc if the drilling needs to be low run out I'd just use a collet and skip using a good keyless chuck. Cheers
Surprisingly, engine oil can actually be worse than no oil on lathes
Yeah I understand why many people will disagree with it, point in case is get way oil. But I personally never ran into issues using it in a pinch, Cheers
@@artisanmakes Yeah I used engine oil for a long time without too many issues apart from it going black instantly due to the detergent presence. It's mainly that it is actually worse than no oil when used as a cutting oil - Project Farm did an interesting series of tests if I recall correctly.
This is a hot topic. On old machines I find that detergent oil (10-40 to 20-40) tends to dissolve and flush out all old crusty crud left over many years as long as you keep over-oiling the machine. Then switch to recommended lubricant. Your mileage may vary. BTW: this on assemblies that are better left alone rather than being taken apart...
Lathe tooling is okay, but mill tooling : 😱
Dislike!