The Book8088 'Retro Laptop' - Is it? Is it though? Well, kind of - let's find out all about it.
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- čas přidán 17. 02. 2024
- Today we're finding out about this little retro style laptop - is it any good?
I forget to mention in the video that it can also run Windows 3.0 - But my serial mouses are all squeaking away in storage :(
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References & Attributions
retrocomputing.stackexchange....
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEC_V20
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Per...
www.computerworld.com/article...
quoteinvestigator.com/2011/09...
forum.vcfed.org/index.php?thr...
thechipletter.substack.com/p/...
github.com/skiselev/8088_bios
www.computerhope.com/history/...
muzeuldecalculatoare.ro/2016/... - Věda a technologie
Big thumbs up for acknowledging Serge Kiselev 👍
I like how new 8086, Z80, 6805, etc machines are making their way onto the market.
Could be a good starting point for teaching CPU design & assembler at a high level.
Definitely better than the theoretical CPUs some courses use. You'll probably never see MMIX outside of a textbook, but at some stage in your career you might need to write some code for an embedded Z80 or 6502 descendent.
Whoever owns MC6809 should release new speedier versions.
@@fnunezI mean, TI still writes for the Z80 and the eZ80 (a faster binary compatible version) for their graphing calculator software, and it has almost certainly been used in other "niche' applications.
When you said "First, it was slightly cheaper;" I imagined Peter Jones in the radio play. Then you came with a joke that tied it all together, a second after. Instant subscribe if I hadn't subbed before. You /so/ knew what you did.
Thanks for covering this! I was happy to see the Book8088... erm BookV20... get that VGA upgrade recently.
I got one of the original CGA versions and I love it. Since I target my game programming projects at 8088/CGA it's about as perfect a machine for me as I can currently afford. Of course, if ever I could afford an IBM 5150 with a 5153 monitor things might be different...
WOW - UK 386 laptop prices are incredibly low compared to the US- where most 386's are not working, untested. IF working, tested then expect $300-900 for laptop/desktop 386.
Nice to have you back❤
Thank you! 😃
I absolutely loved the Douglas Adams nod... Absolutely brilliant ;)
I just received my box from AliExpess with the same bundle a couple days ago - your video has me even more excited to crack it open and dive in! I'm curious - do you know if anyone is putting together a list or wiki of apps and games that are suited to this odd mix of old and *very* old hardware?
The V20 is actually a bonus, as it is not only compatible to the 8086 but also has an 8080 mode, meaning it could run CP/M as well as DOS. Of course, for CP/M the 640k would be madness, even CP/M 3.0 (which included bank-switching) was usually not used with more than 128k.
The possibility to run CP/M would make this a real retro-computer, stretching the time-frame back into the seventies.
The nec v20 is a replacement for the 8088 cpu. The nec v30 is a good replacement chip for the 8086.
I know because I had gotten the v30 to replace in the tandy 1000sx and it was incompatible and upon deeper reading they are indeed a upgrade for 8086 processors. I think the only key difference between the 8088 & 8086 was the 8086 had 16-bit addressing for memory or something like that.
I have to wonder if this thing exists because someone came into a whole bunch of V20s and couldn't figure out what to do with them. Because otherwise it would make SO much more sense to build this around a 286 or 386.
Having gotten into PC computers back in the late 80s, I would agree. A 286 with EGA or 386 with VGA, AdLib/SoundBlaster support plus some extra memory is a much better jumping on point for games or productivity. Not having a game port is also a miss.
@@CoachOtaSome people got in to computers earlier than you, so may well remember using 8086, 8088 and 80186 class CPUs. Original machines are 44 years old and hard to get hold of and maintain. If this machine were a bit cheaper and closer to a typical 8088 class laptop from back in the day, it would be an OK machine.
@@another3997 Yeah, that's the odd thing about this. Aside from the CPU, nearly all the other hardware points towards a late-80s PC. As the video noted, even trying to find software which supports VGA & Adlib but will run on an 8088 is difficult. If they wanted a true early-80s style PC, why the fancy hardware?
I'm not surprised to find 80xx pcs starting to pop up in my feed. Nor that it's someone from the UK that's showing it off. But that leaves me no less amazed. To think and appreciate the tech we have to the tech we had. And the community that still gets excited by it. FYI been looking up 74xx stuff. Perhaps I'll see more from the 80xx line up
I think it's kind of amazing that we've come to the point, that what I would assume was someone's passion project can be produced for such a limited market.
As for the computer itself, it looks nice for what it is though there are quite a few magic black boxes on the mainboard. Not a problem in itself, but when they fail it's just a paperweight before long - a vintage laptop you may manage to find spare parts for. If I can't repair it, then I'll pick the vintage one.
Hope you packed your towel first, Scott! 😋👍
I did!
Congratulations on achieving your new lifestyle. The Book 8088 is a bit of a cipher. I mean, it's cool that someone built a small MS-DOS laptop in 2023, and that a Mk II came out in 2024, but it just seems a bit late to the party. There's a menu system called QuikMenu III that would really make this thing pop.
Best device like this for old school gaming is the Steam Deck, play old games with ScummVM/DosBox and then Emulate away with Emulation Station. The OLED screen is amazing for old games. A bit pricey, but the best thing I have had since my Commodore Amiga.
The nec v20 was the cpu for my first ibm clone pc I owned. My 3rd ever computer after my original spectrum48 and pcw8256
I don't think trying to ape a 5150 with anachronistic video and sound is the ideal solution-but what is will probably require a bit more work. I really think what the retrocomputing world needs is some Tandy compatibility. The sort of improved CGA and multiple bleeps and boops at a time sound. It could be done in a smaller FPGA, and I really think it should be done that way because you'd want to emulate the composite mode. Also, you'd want to be able to output to a VGA monitor
What else/ I dunno… PS/2 keyboard and DA-15 joystick port on the add-in board? That makes it less portable, but more usable. If accepting the use of FPGAs means you can integrate more of it into one slightly larger FPGA (at not much higher cost), it means you might have space for those ports on the device, and maybe room for EMS as well. Just a thought.
Features for next version: 1) Better keyboard. 2) UMB memory. That'd make me buy one.
Always loved the vintage Thinkpad look, and this edges close, even if not in build quality. That said, it'd be funky if LILYGO put a FABGL VGA ESP32 alike in a Thinkpad clone case...
I quite like your realistic benchmarks for the channel
What is the the classic synthetic performance tests showing?
Is it in pair or above the IBM PC?
You said you were downsizing, but this is ridiculous! 😁
I didn't realize there are also "Alkers" in Lemmings... :o
Serial port for a mouse (or PS/2) would be a great addition. with their component choice I do understand there is no scanning video (VGA or RCA) as it would really add to the complexity, but it would still be neat.
Given they stuff so much in CPLDs, why not go all in and use an FPGA to do most if not all the heavy lifting at probably a fraction of the cost.
Given the VGA chip, it should be possible to split the signal to a VGA port. That would be way outside the scope of this video, but worth it for a longer video.
More than 30 years ago, an employer who had a stash of even-then ancient AT&T 6300 PCs, gave me one. Back then, the Pentium was brand new, and the old 8086 box was barely a smart terminal. I kept it at my mother's house, and when I spent the night there, I'd drag it out of the crawlspace and dial up a BBS with it.
When I took a job at a university that gave me a desktop on the Internet, I quickly learned to dual-boot into Linux, so I could use telnet and FTP to access the machine from home. And I put Minix 1.5 on the old AT&T, which worked a treat with the SLIP chat script for my dial-up ISP. Many hours of fun until I bought Mom a computer of her own.
I gave a brief thought to buying a Book8088, but what was a challenge 30 years ago is no longer a challenge. I've moved on. I went through my phase of making the most of old computers back then; why do it over again?
I'm not sure what the market is for this exactly, I'm interested in hardware older than I am but if it's going to be vintage x86 of some flavor at very least a 486 hell would be far more interesting and i would imagine others share a similar opinion. 8088/VGA is just a hair too limited for my taste as I have no nostalgia for any of this being born in '98.
Aside from younger people looking to tinker like myself and people like you who were there when this stuff was relevant and probably mostly have the same mindset of "been there, done that"
@@jordanl5444 I agree, the 486 is about as retro as I'd want to go. 32-bit protected mode software was when things started getting interesting, and while a 386 is the bare minimum, the 486 has the power to do things still.
imo VGA and OPL3 is overkill for a machine with an 8088 based platform. If it had a 386 it then would be reasonable. A VGA port would be nice too.
Love the idea of putting a nostalgia machine together in laptop form (hey, I'm looking a Commodore, Acorn and Sinclair here too*), however in this case, I'm baffled why you would not use the 8086, or up the ram to a usable amount.
For me though, that keyboard looks too cramped. Never got on with netbooks generally for that reason, can never hit the right key. And a bigger screen needed. Still.
*Thinking about it, if you could have one laptop case that does all three (and PC!) by a switch on the side (or pulling the system module and swapping for another) that would be cool.
Picked one up on AliExpress as a X-Mas gift to myself, and mostly agree with your assessment. Would just add the keyboard usability vacillates between “meh” and “GGRRRRR …”, really standing out where other corners cut could potentially be at least partially forgiven. I wanted to get back into coding on QBasic on “genuine article” hardware (lost hours of my childhood accordingly on an IBM PS/2 Model 25), but the keyboard is always my limiting factor.
Hi, it is a good little machine for what it is.
Considering original vintage it hit on miss if it is working properly today and how long will it last
I have a approx 2010 netbook HP 5102 with a Atom processor, it now runs linux mint, but it can boot of the SD card, so i have a 8gb boot card with 4 x 2gb dos partitions and dos 6.22
Way to fast for dos games but dos apps like win3.1 is fine as is works for dos.
I cant recall but i think you can slow it down in bios by turning of shadow roms and cache or i used the slow down or cpu speed utility
it's not possible to make 8088 in newer process node? like make 8088 with 7nm
The Gates 640Kb quote is not nearly as bad as the one about Gary Kildall who didn't just go flying because he couldn't be bothered talking to IBM.
You can use the serial port for a mouse, old heads like me remember the serial mouse and may even have a few 3 button models laying around 😂
I would love to see someone install FreeDOS one of these
I'd put DR DOS on it, just to be different.
I wish this was a 386, I know I've seen the hand 386 but I'd much prefer this form factor.
The lack of external keyboard and mouse are a dealbreaker. ~~~MAYBE~~~ if the expansion board (5:42) allows adding a card to connect a keyboard and mouse...
i've got a first gen with no serial or parallel port that works fine but the second gen i bought has graphics issues with the CGA chipset and even tho the seller accepted returns i couldn't find a shipper that would send to the return address in china. these are are mostly reclaimed parts on custom pcbs with little to no quality control. neat but expensive and possibly faulty toy.
Can you add an ISA Serial Port/Multifunction card via the ISA bus?
The reason it was cheaper though is that Intel couldn't give discounts on the 8086 because of deals with other parties, but the 8088 was outside those deals, so could be given a decent discount. The chip itself is almost identical to the 8086. Of course, creating a system with it _was_ a lot cheaper, b/o reuse of 8-bit 8080 support chips.
The intro clip made me laugh, and that machine has such an intriguing mix of components. But I'm not really sure what the use of it is? I mean, it's underpowered for a lot of gaming nostalgia, and it's definitely not man enough for business applications. I'd hate to see how slow Windows chugs when it starts making swap files.
Ok, I know this might be seen as nit picking but why do we need a Windows key on a machine that is designed to run MS-DOS?
It may not be needed, but buying stocks of a modern, off the shelf laptop keyboard to keep costs down rather limits your choice. I suppose they could have put a sticker over it, or maybe the key caps are easily replaced... but what label would you want on that key?
@@another3997 if the key caps could be replaced, you could have pretty much anything. As an example you could have something like prg, or prog, both short for program. It wouldn't be difficult to write a program which would use this key, as part of a combination to launch a program, for example prog + 1 could launch your word processor, 2 could launch a game of your choice, etc.
What happened to replacing the BIOS, did I miss that part?
My curiousity is whether it will run CPM-86... I'd honestly be more interested in an Apple IIgs clone in that form factor. Or an MSX box.
And yeah, it really should have an external VGA at the price point listed.
It's an interesting toy, and I'm happy with mine. I'm glad such a thing exists, and that something like that is possible in this day and age. If someone thinks is pointless, whatever, nobody is asking you to buy one.
9:45 shows clearly that 64 megabytes (65,535 kilobytes) of extended memory is installed, with approximately 34 megabytes available. That's nowt to do with the ROM...
I was similarly confused and ended up here: www.reddit.com/r/vintagecomputing/comments/17os42d/how_can_these_roms_occupy_memory_above_640kb_if/
I disagree that the choice of components is anachronistic and spec-wise it lines up well with the type of budget PC first-time home users were purchasing in the 2nd half of the 80s. First of the all the V20 chip was released in 1984 (not 1979) and became a popular choice for cheap PC clones during the PC sales boom of 1986-1990. During that period companies were primarily targeting EGA for games with legacy support for CGA, while VGA support gradually started to be added at the tail end. Therefore, having a GPU that supports all 3 is very appropriate. With 640k RAM and the 8mhz CPU, it should be capable of running any 80s era DOS game/application. Extended memory wasn't required until the 90s, and while some 1988-1989 games run much better with a 286, they still should be playable with a V20. The OPL3 would have been better for a 90s themed device, but it has full support for OPL2 and sourcing OPL2 chips would have been more difficult and expensive so the decision is understandable.
Overall, as somehow who had a very similar system in the 80s, the specs look absolutely fine to me. It just needs a proper keyboard that is somewhat closer to those used on 80s era laptops/luggables and of course to also properly licence Serge Kiselev’s bios. Real 8088/8086 laptops are notorious for being difficult to maintain and many are suffering from dying chips, drives and LCDs, all of which are hard to replace. So there is a legit gap for the Book8088 if they ever put a proper keyboard on it.
It's like an updated Amstrad PPC or, as you say, any low-end PC of the late 1990s. Obviously, even the screen on this thing is way beyond what was available at that time, and it would have been quite high-end for most of the 1990s, too, but there are practical limits to authenticity if one wants to sell a product.
Might be worth comparing this to something slightly more modern - Toshiba Satellite Click Mini :)
I'm impressed this exists but wonder why anyone would want it. I can sort of understand the appeal if it was a 386 model, but there's so much e-waste out there already. In any case you can buy a used Thinkpad T460 for around the same money and have an infinitely more useful modern PC and with a great keyboard and screen. Put Linux Mint on it and then you have the option of DOSBox (multiple variants), DOSEMU, 86Box, VirtualBox plus a whole bunch of non-PC emulators.
Does the machine have a useable serial port on it? What type of hard drive does it use? Does it have a floppy drive if not how does one add dos programs to the machine?
Yes, it has a working serial port - it uses a compact flash drive with an XT-IDE interface. No floppy but you can drop things straight onto the compact flash, or you can use a usb thumb drive.
Will this run early versions of MATLAB?
I still find it amazing that Lemmings can run in a webbrowser these days.
Or quake 3
@@bengelman2600🤯
I bought the v2 and it's a great little machine, a little but plasticky but works great, the only "problem" is the CF, as it 500MB it's a little bit slow when "dir" or starting an "exe", too big for FAT16.
I have a problem with PrintMaster 1, impossible to recognize my 2 vintage printers (Epson LQ870 and HP Laserjet 4+), strange as they work with other software (even PM 2) and from my Toshiba 286, my Acer 386 and my Compaq PII machines.
For the rest, RS232 works as expected, connected to a PC with Fastlynx, mouse OK, LPT1 OK, Turbo works, may be little bit too "fast" due to its V20 and the VGA doesn't work well with CGA programs. The installed version of W3.0 misses a lot of files, including vga.drv but I installed PCGeos 1.2 and it works like a charm, I tested ver.2 but it needs a 286 to run.
I don't regret this little machine, it's very fun to use.
The CF card might be quicker to use if you repartition it into two (or even three) drives.
@@zoomosis indeed, fdisk is my friend :)
I have the old CGA version. It's not particularly useful. It ended up just handling my checking account register with Quicken 7.0 and it does a fine job lol.
I feel the only things lacking are a cheap small but better CPU like 386/486 equivalent, 4-8mb ram, and a VGA out socket... It could be a functional dos machine like that
I think 486 (or something like AMD Am5x86), 8MB RAM, SVGA 1MB would be better.
Basically a machine that can run everything up to Windows 95 apps.
Can it run ST-DOS?
ya, if I want to go retro, I would want something that could support win 3.11 or even win95. So, at least 486dx4, or even a cyrix586. These are just a bit pricy for too little performance.
Does it do 8088 Mph?
At least V30 at 10MHz or better 286 16MHz or an 386SX, latest were available very long as embedded CPUs, 4MB of RAM, adding VGA output and PS2 for mouse and keyboard. Other features as external bus is super, no deleting here. VGA and AdLib is overkill for XT class CPU. I could accept even slightly bigger format for better keyboard. Everything more lead to old classic notebooks. I also like idea of this gear but feel it pricey and too limited for me.
I was going to get one but I'd want a better screen and keyboard, I'd at least want good arrow keys.
Yeah but can it play Repton?
Bbbut I thought turbo-mode was supposed to be slow for backwards compatibility with old games that were programmed using slower framerates? Why do you seem to imply turbo mode speeds up the pc?
Typically a PC would boot in Turbo mode and you'd turn it off to run games that needed a slower CPU. Though in this video it seems to be booting in non-turbo mode? Or maybe that was just how the video was edited. Not sure.
@@zoomosis I just looked and it seems my computer, and some others as well, came with an inverted turbo button, hence my confusion. Sorry for the dumb question and thank you for the clarification.
That’s an odd design. If you want to look like an 8088, any $2 microcontroller can emulate an 8088, and probably require less support circuitry and less power.
id like to see this with a 386 or something
Skip to 1:50
It looks Mostly Harmless.
In case you plan to visit Poland just let me know :)
I'm not entirely sure who these computers are aimed at. I suppose ancient industrial control equipment that needs to be replaced because it can't be repaired?
Retro MS-DOS gaming and nostalgia enthusiasts. Somebody wanting to control industrial equipment wouldn't touch this thing with a 10-foot barge pole.
It's unlikely to find a use in industry. The industrial "retro" computers tend to use high quality components without any of the unnecessary bells and whistles. They are designed for long term reliability. They also tend to come with firm commitments to support the hardware for extended periods of time. None of those criteria are likely to be met by this machine.
You could probably bump the RAM up to 1MB with some work.
I really like your videos. I'd urge you to stop using AI-generated imagery because it cheapens them, especially when you're otherwise sourcing fun clips in between and are clearly putting time and effort in the videos.
Good overview. Not something I’d buy, but I’m sure there’s some kind of market for it.
I think it would be better if it had a vortex86 or similar 486 compatible cpu with a crystal audio chip for Soundblaster sound. As it is it doesn't feel worth it. Too weak to be useful and too expensive to just buy for the novelty factor.
I got a NuXT, which I think is a better retro PC. I really don't get the laptop form factor...
Novelty.
It exists to make money. 😂
It doesn't run Pac-Girl :(
Fixed! I replaced the BIOS that came with Book 8088 with Sergey's version for the Book 8088 and Pac-Girl is now working! Running it with the Soviet К1810ВМ88 version of the 8088. /Brett
The biggest fault for me, which I find really disorienting, is that they forced the Adlib sound, a mono device, into stereo. I'm not sure what they did, but it appears that random instruments get assigned to be either left or right channel and when you're playing back Adlib, you'll be getting one part of the song in your left ear and one part in your right ear with no real sense of balance.
That's crazy. I wonder how anyone thought that'd be a good idea.
It's a fault of the chip that was used - OPL3 is stereo, while OPL2 was mono. While in a MIDI-file an instrument can be panned from left to right in 128 different positions (with 64 being dead-center in the mix), but, if I am not mistaken, OPL3 can only place it in three positions - dead-center, or only in the right or left channel. It worked fine in a synth keyboard, but not on a sound card.
If someone did this for Amiga...
Without chonky keys, what even is the POINT?
I never understand the problem with the 640 is enough quote. Even if Bill Gates said that, then it was probably true at the time.
Especially since the 8088 only has 20 address lines and hence a total address space of 1MB - the dividing line between RAM and memory mapped ROM and I/O had to go somewhere, and I guess ending RAM at 9FFF:000F and starting the reserved space at A000:0000 made a lot of sense at the time - it was basically 2/3 RAM and 1/3 "other stuff".
It was true in the mid-80s but not so much when Windows 3.0 was released in 1990. It could run in 640 KB but there weren't many Windows apps would run in the small amount of memory left after Windows had loaded. Word 1.1 might've been one of the few that did.
The first version of OS/2 was released in ~1988 which increased the memory limit for native apps to 16 MB. Bill Gates was a big proponent of OS/2 at the time. It won't run on the PC in this video since it needs at least a 286.
4 USB ports that are full service.
too expensive
And who asked for this? Who's been pining to run MSDOS on a tiny, barely usable "laptop"?
@luthiart me! Which is why I'm running DOSbian on my Raspberry pi. It runs Microsoft word 5.5 and it's a great distraction free writing machine.
A cheap laptop from the 2010s can easily run Bochs or DOSBox emulation, has a decent keyboard, more RAM than DOS could ever handle, and you can instantly switch to Windows or Linux with a keypress. There is nothing authentic or nostalgic about those new 8bit machines.
@@Kobold666 Yes you can, but with any kind of emulation or virtualisation, you always have that nagging feeling that it's not the same as the real hardware. The limitations are artificial, and you know you can just switch to the modern OS underneath and use the modern hardware to it's full capacity. Running emulators can be great fun, they're quick, convenient and ultra flexible... but as long as you KNOW it's emulation, it's not the same.
@another3997 That is true... a few years ago, I was all about buying busted C64s and repairing/modding them, etc. Everyone said: "Why go through all that trouble when you can run those games in an emulator?". You are indeed correct. It's NOT the same experience as banging on original hardware, and that's what i would tell anybody who thought my efforts were a waste of time and money. But this thing is NOT original hardware. It looks like a piece of crap from Ali Express, to be honest. Don't let it stroke your nostalgia gland. You're better off buying an old PC from Goodwill or ebay and running DOS to your heart's content on that than spending good money on something that you'll probably get bored with in three months, or it'll break... whichever comes first.
@@another3997 I know. I own several Commodore and Amiga machines. But an AT/XT is just a PC as any other PC. I have no nostalgia at all for DOS machines, but I can relate.
If you want original hardware from the time, buy original hardware from the time. There is no need to produce more modern electronics waste.
Rather garish, getting a proper old laptop is much better.
god stop using AI art...
Absolutely. Still needs editing anyway. Just put the items of the topic how hard is it.
All the AI art killed this for me, sorry. It's really not needed.
I see absolutely no point in this. Building something like it yourself as a hobby project, maybe. As a commercial product it is a waste of time and resources. Especially as cheaply built run of the mill chinese e-waste
Those chips had to go somewhere.
@@fus132Could've gone up for sale instead
What a waste of components...
I am one of the real users of Book8088. I would like to say that such a laptop is simply industrial garbage. It has a very poor screen and keyboard. The viewing angle of the screen is very small, the colors are dim, the brightness cannot be adjusted, the keyboard feels very bad and comes with Android The shortcut keys 😁🤣look like the stock from the lowest-end Android tablets from 10 years ago. The chip hatch is worse than your air conditioner remote control or even a kid's toy. There's nothing aesthetic about the exterior design, and it looks like it's been hastily manufactured. It's a poor imitation of IBM's ultraportable computers of the past. The designer does not really put his heart into making it, but only uses it as a tool to make money. It is far worse than the uMSX Pro I made in every aspect.😅
Well, I’d be happy to review your UMSX Pro :) Get in touch :)
@@TheRetroShack I found out yesterday that suddenly someone bought my uMSX Pro😅.