Shepherds For Sale / Doug Wilson and Friends with Megan Basham
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- čas přidán 9. 09. 2024
- This week Doug Wilson & Friends is joined by the author of the VERY controversial Shepherd’s for Sale, Meg Basham. They talk about the controversies, the critics, and the pedants.
First they ignore evil.
Then they permit evil.
Then they legalize evil.
Then they promote evil.
Then they celebrate evil.
Then they persecute those who still call it evil.
"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil..."
Isaiah 5:20
@@robertheath2007 That which is not forbidden will be required.
Amen
I was referred to as old school by someone at a church I had attended. I decided I'm in the wrong church.
Megan is a bright light of debate as a minimum, or a sword bearer as I believe she is. Sword bearer. That’s my vote!
This book is a turning point..ty for your courage!!
I think people are mostly in shock because they are experiencing true journalism for the first time. Where would we be had their been true journalism the past fifty years.
truth unites/gavin ortlund goes through her "true journalism"
note that it's not "true" journalism, it's just truly journalistic, and you don't hate journalists enough
if she lied so clearly about his stances who else is she lying about, gavin ortlund is a stumbling block on her reputation because he showed receipts in his video on her book of what he actually said versus what she said he said
it'd be different if she acknowledged she blatantly got her assessment of him wrong I wouldn't have to point this out but she prevaricates obvious lies into "interpretations"
@@user-ee2vt7yi3myou're a bot serving his master
@@user-ee2vt7yi3mTell me accountability is kryptonite to women without telling me accountability is kryptonite to women.
I am so thankful for this book. I have already bought 25 copies of it. 22 of those have gone to family, friends, and pastors. This is a book that everyone needs to read. I hope it sparks big changes in the evangelical world!
Evangelist Franklin Graham (son of Billy Graham) for ABC News in March 2021:
“I think for a pastor to tell someone not to take the vaccine is problematic because what would happen if that person got coronavirus and died?
I think if there were vaccines available in the time of Christ, Jesus would have made reference to them and used them."
Associated Press, November 8, 2021:
“Evangelist Franklin Graham successfully underwent a specialized heart surgery on Monday to treat a condition which had developed in recent months, a spokesman said.
Mark Barber, a spokesman for North Carolina-based Samaritan’s Purse, said in a news release that Graham underwent the procedure at Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota.
“In recent months, according to the news release, the son of the late evangelist Billy Graham had developed constrictive pericarditis, inflammation, and hardening of the sac around the heart that compresses the heart and prevents it from working properly.”
Christianity Today, January 14, 2022:
“The granddaughter of late evangelist Billy Graham is in hospital after suffering two back-to-back heart attacks over the weekend.
Rachel-Ruth Lotz was hospitalized on Saturday night after suffering the first heart attack. She then suffered a second heart attack on Sunday afternoon.
Her mother, Anne Graham Lotz, daughter of Billy Graham, is asking for prayers.
Lotz said she had been told by a doctor that Rachel-Ruth suffers from a rare condition called 'broken heart syndrome', which the Mayo Clinic describes as "a temporary heart condition that's often brought on by stressful situations and extreme emotions". According to Mayo, the causes of broken heart syndrome are "unclear".
Rachel-Ruth is married with three children and serves on the board of directors for her mother's outreach AnGeL Ministries where she also chairs a weekly prayer team.”
By the grace of Almighty God all of them overcame these scary and significant health and emotional hurdles. But till this day I haven’t heard from any of them any public retrospective statements related with the cause of their suffering, none.
The same with many churches which are silent to this they on this topic, and all too many Christians with immediately changed face expressions are avoiding this conversations. But we need truth and repentance. Often God is shaking us for that purpose and if we still refuse to see our sin at some point God can withdraw the blessing of his mercy and substitute it with the curse of His holy anger.
And you kept 3 for yourself? 🤣
I commend your conviction to wake up the Church from its worldly slumber.
Awesome. Please look up Redeemed Zoomer also. His Reconquista battle plan is also fantastic.
I’m going to wait to order my copy after corrections have been made to remove references to Gavin Ortlund, then I’ll excitedly read it and cheer for her!
Great conversation. Best quote, "If you're taking flak you know you are over the target". Go Megan!!
Absolutely. And she is taking an unbelievable amount of flak right now. The kingdom of darkness is desperate to discredit her!
It's a powerful metaphor (flak & target) and can definitely accurately describe what's going on in a given situation BUT it's obviously not always true that just because there is pushback or recourse, you're right!
I mean, I like it. Ive used it. But it's not a beatitude... or even a Proverb. 😄
Think it's becoming overused and kinda relied on a bit too heavily.
By that logic the people she is goving flak to in her book are also over the target.
Or you might be sitting on the can when it backs up and overflows.
I just finished this book about 15 minutes ago. Wow! Thank you, Megan, for having the courage to speak the truth against a tidalwave of deceitful forces.
Joe: "man-made climate change" is not a "fact." It's a notion at best (or worst) of insignificance relative to total climate dynamics.
You should have lived in LA in the '60s. Exhaust from autos definitely affected the climate. Why is it "political" to simply admit that when humans put stuff into the atmosphere it has an effect on our lives?
@@dennisokholm7548 I worked in Ontario, CA in the 80s. Four out of seven days of the week the air quality was quite poor due to vehicle exhaust. Greyish-tan haze was obvious. The air even tasted bad. Humans putting noxious compounds into the environment is a real concern. But that was local air quality (and urban heat island effect), not global climate or a significant contributor to global climate dynamics.
I'm an environmental scientist by education and by professional practice for over 30 years. I strongly believe that we should be good stewards of God's world, including protecting air quality, water quality, animal and plant communities, and more. Even so -- the "man-made climate change" hysteria and the forced stoppage of using coal, oil, and natural gas is foolishness. The proof is not really there that "man-made" climate change is truly a significant reality, despite Michael Mann's popular (but fraudulent) hockey stick graph. I think even the IPCC isn't really promoting "man-made" as a proven fact of significance. Meanwhile, economist Bjorn Lomborg, who's a bit of a fence sitter on the significance of human contributions to climate dynamics, believes it is wrong-headed from an economics perspective to spend time and money on forced implementation of wind and solar energy and forced restrictions on historically "conventional" energy sources. Better to continue to use conventional energy resources to improve living standards, as they have dramatically, and adjust living locations if and when needed.
So - again, "man-made" climate change is not a "fact." Nonetheless, the earth is the Lord's and we should be good stewards of it.
Not wanting to be argumentative. Just providing some additional points of consideration.
Grace and peace to you.
@@dennisokholm7548 Fallacy of equivocation. Local environmental pollution is most certainly real. Global man-made climate change? that's a much bigger pill to swallow.
@@dennisokholm7548
Are you asking rhetorically? I ask because you’re conflating two things…and I’m not sure you’re doing it accidentally or deliberately. That ANY creature exists means it will have some finite impact on the world. Nobody disagrees with the idea that humans create pollution and can have some finite impact on the physical world. Where it becomes political is when you pretend to know what that impact is simply because you ran a simulation in a computer. It is disingenuous, obscurantist, and deceitful to claim that humans have any effect on global climate. Rise in carbon dioxide correlates with warming not because it causes warming, but because warming increases the solubility of carbon dioxide. When you leave a can of beer in the sun all day, open it, and carbon dioxide explodes from the can, opening the beer didn’t make the weather warm…the warm weather released the carbon dioxide from the fluid. This is sixth grade science.
Any government message that contradicts sixth grade science is driven by agenda. THAT is what makes it political.
More, cold weather is responsible for magnitudes of order MORE death than warm weather. Life THRIVES in heat. Even if the Earth warms due to natural cycles (it does), that warming is GOOD for life, and always has been. The planet is green BECAUSE plants EAT carbon dioxide…which is abundantly available in warm weather that dissolves carbon dioxide from the water. You are being propagandized against juniors high school equivalency science. That is political.
@@winstonsol8713 First, you are giving way too much credit to sixth grade teachers, as much as I support public school teachers. Second, I never mentioned CO2, though I know that is an element of what we experienced in SoCal--SMOG. And SMOG affected extended weather patterns, which is what we call "climate," let alone that it was unhealthy for humans living in SoCal. Thankfully, California politics put an end to much of that pollution coming from auto exhausts. Third, I find your tone arrogant and pretentious, though you may feel entitled.
Thankful for the work she did to expose the wrong doing
Evangelist Franklin Graham (son of Billy Graham) for ABC News in March 2021:
“I think for a pastor to tell someone not to take the vaccine is problematic because what would happen if that person got coronavirus and died?
I think if there were vaccines available in the time of Christ, Jesus would have made reference to them and used them."
Associated Press, November 8, 2021:
“Evangelist Franklin Graham successfully underwent a specialized heart surgery on Monday to treat a condition which had developed in recent months, a spokesman said.
Mark Barber, a spokesman for North Carolina-based Samaritan’s Purse, said in a news release that Graham underwent the procedure at Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota.
“In recent months, according to the news release, the son of the late evangelist Billy Graham had developed constrictive pericarditis, inflammation, and hardening of the sac around the heart that compresses the heart and prevents it from working properly.”
Christianity Today, January 14, 2022:
“The granddaughter of late evangelist Billy Graham is in hospital after suffering two back-to-back heart attacks over the weekend.
Rachel-Ruth Lotz was hospitalized on Saturday night after suffering the first heart attack. She then suffered a second heart attack on Sunday afternoon.
Her mother, Anne Graham Lotz, daughter of Billy Graham, is asking for prayers.
Lotz said she had been told by a doctor that Rachel-Ruth suffers from a rare condition called 'broken heart syndrome', which the Mayo Clinic describes as "a temporary heart condition that's often brought on by stressful situations and extreme emotions". According to Mayo, the causes of broken heart syndrome are "unclear".
Rachel-Ruth is married with three children and serves on the board of directors for her mother's outreach AnGeL Ministries where she also chairs a weekly prayer team.”
By the grace of Almighty God all of them overcame these scary and significant health and emotional hurdles. But till this day I haven’t heard from any of them any public retrospective statements related with the cause of their suffering, none.
The same with many churches which are silent to this they on this topic, and all too many Christians with immediately changed face expressions are avoiding this conversations. But we need truth and repentance. Often God is shaking us for that purpose and if we still refuse to see our sin at some point God can withdraw the blessing of his mercy and substitute it with the curse of His holy anger.
Imagine if you weren’t allowed to point out the lies spoken by pastors because that is “speaking evil” of them
Go Megan! I just finished the book and I’m so thankful she exposed all of the garbage and called out these evangelicals. My family was caught up in this and we knew we weren’t imagining things…Read the Book!
I’m very supportive of Megan‘s book and I believe the theme is entirely accurate. One thing I would hope we would stop doing is suggesting that anyone who defends themselves should be more suspect. Innocent people also have a compulsion to defend themselves when attacked. Instead of using how vehemently someone defends themselves to judge their guilt, we should simply stick to the evidence. It makes our case stronger. And the evidence shows that there are shepherds for sale.
And if your neighborhood Walmart is out of shepherd's for sale, don't worry. Meagan will invent one for you.
@@JonJaeden you spelled her name wrong. If we can’t trust you with something simple like spelling then can we really trust you about anything?😀
@@alexjflow Thx. I hate when I do that. It's Bash-Him.
@@alexjflow agreed in a sense. That said, Ortlund could have stated simply a mea culpa and said he disagreed with how he was portrayed but could see how his unintentional actions could have been interpreted.
Instead he did what people tend to do when confronted with uncomfortable truth. Hardcore defence while taking down his accuser’s credibility. That is classic Church abuse methods. I think Gavin is better that this and hope he see it as well. Even Megan thought that the response from Gavin’s followers was excessive considering how his comments were portrayed more as a symptom than a cause.
@@gordpenner2706 I agree. The manner in which someone defends themselves is definitely relevant, just not necessarily the intensity of the defense.
If Wilson believes that Kevin DeYoung has a moral obligation to sit down in person to discuss various claims and allegations, then Wilson also has a moral obligation to have Gavin Ortlund on to discuss all the various claims and allegations.
Be consistent. Do the right thing.
If Gavin made claims and allegations against Doug and the "moscow mood" like Kevin did, then yeah, but he hasn't done that.
What makes you think Gavin Ortland would sit down with Doug Wilson??? Big Eva will never sit down with Doug Wilson because Doug is exposing their wickedness.
@CC-ii3ij I am sorry, but your comment strikes me as absurd. So much so, I will say no more.
If Gavin wanted to sit down with Doug, I very much doubt that Doug would refuse.
Interesting to see lengthy critical comments that are made before the commenter could have possibly viewed the whole video.
Or even the first 15 minutes.
there's no mention or apology over her naming gavin ortlund and her blatant lying about what he said in one particular video that she blows up to 7 pages of castigation in the introduction to the interview
gavin ortlund of truth unites goes and quotes the book in context and then shows the video in question, and the blatant lying after the fact is duly noted
czcams.com/video/-3ClEkfP8pM/video.html
How dare you say anything against my celebrity pastor!!! He can do no wrong.
@@rinihogewoning6528 she*
Great and balanced discussion about Ms Basham’s new book. Thanks for shining the light . Much needed within the church
As a long time fan of Canon, I’m waiting for any of these shows interviewing Megan to actually invite Gavin on to discuss his views (or heck, even debate the climate change topic itself - I happen to disagree strongly with Gavin on this topic). If Gavin has refused these invitations, can we see evidence? Much has been said about the Moscow embargo. It seems to me that this would be a fantastic opportunity for Moscow people to show that they are able to rise above the tactic that has long been employed against them.
Climate change is a scam
Why platform a heretic like Ortlund ? They have better things to do with their time
flying monkeys
Who says the ball is in Moscow’s court? If Gavin wants to discuss his views, shouldn’t he reach out to them? He could also invite Doug or Joe or even Megan to be interviewed by him on his rather large platform.
Why do that, it is easier to cancel people you disagree with
@@hudjahulos I believe Meagan said in the video Ortlund reached out to her and she replied in some fashion, but said no to an interview with him.
Great jog gentlemen. This is a very helpful and thoughtful interview with a very thoughtful and seasoned journalist. The negative response to her book, "Shepherds for Sale," reminds one of the response of Alistair Begg to his clearly unbiblical comments to a Christian asking about whether to attend a gay "wedding." Instead of Begg repenting, the attack machine goes after the faithful calling evil, evil and good, good as God's Word compels The Church to do.
Great session. Probably one of the best interviews I’ve seen so far.
I thought this was an excellent presentation. Regarding the Ortland controversy, I've read the chapter on climate change and Ortland is not mentioned very prominently. Frank Turek on his podcast a few days ago played Ortland's climate change video and I think Megan was very accurate in her representation and assessment. When I hear Christians say the science is settled on an issue like evolution or climate change or covid it really makes me very wary of their teaching. The world says things like that and Christians are immediately painted as ignorant or stupid or full of hate if we don't fully agree. The science is settled that Jesus didn't rise again on the third day. The science is settled that blindness can't be cured by spit and dirt. The science is settled that water doesn't run backwards. The science is settled that 90 year old barren women don't have babies. I believe the Bible not settled science.
The science is settled on climate change in the sense that the climate is indisputably getting warmer, on average. The question of _why_ exactly it's getting warmer, and what, if anything, we can reasonably do about it, is more open to controversy. Basham treated Ortlund very unfairly. All Gavin was saying is that it's an important issue and Christians can disagree over those two controversial questions (why we're getting warmer and what we can or should reasonably do about it).
The right wing in America has such a nutty streak to it, that Gavin's actual position which I just described is considered a "left-wing agenda". No, the left-wing agenda is that climate change is 100% caused by human behavior, and we need to economically devastate ourselves in an act of repentance for wronging "mother earth". _That's_ the typical leftist view, and Gavin is _nowhere_ near that, and people like Basham and co. are discrediting themselves by asserting he is.
@@doctorg.k.spoderminsr.2588 exactly! Someone didn't watch the full video, just a short clip specifically chosen to back Megan's position.
Hey, Doctorg...the Right is nutty???? Pay much attention to the Left? What is a woman? Get your shot, kids? Islam is above reproach? Trump/Russia? What, they MISSED? It is the hard Left that is nutty, and far far more dangerously so. Flat Earthers have no power at all. Toxic feminists have the courts. OMB has the media.
How dare you argue with Dr. Anthony 'The Science' Fauci! He has spoken, and so mote it be.
@@doctorg.k.spoderminsr.2588 I'm not sure the science is settled on whether the climate is changing. That said, I have no dogs in the fight as I've barely watched any of Ortlund's videos (though I found the one I did watch- relating to theistic evolution- lackluster and unconvincing).
Well done Megan! Well done!
Evangelist Franklin Graham (son of Billy Graham) for ABC News in March 2021:
“I think for a pastor to tell someone not to take the vaccine is problematic because what would happen if that person got coronavirus and died?
I think if there were vaccines available in the time of Christ, Jesus would have made reference to them and used them."
Associated Press, November 8, 2021:
“Evangelist Franklin Graham successfully underwent a specialized heart surgery on Monday to treat a condition which had developed in recent months, a spokesman said.
Mark Barber, a spokesman for North Carolina-based Samaritan’s Purse, said in a news release that Graham underwent the procedure at Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota.
“In recent months, according to the news release, the son of the late evangelist Billy Graham had developed constrictive pericarditis, inflammation, and hardening of the sac around the heart that compresses the heart and prevents it from working properly.”
Christianity Today, January 14, 2022:
“The granddaughter of late evangelist Billy Graham is in hospital after suffering two back-to-back heart attacks over the weekend.
Rachel-Ruth Lotz was hospitalized on Saturday night after suffering the first heart attack. She then suffered a second heart attack on Sunday afternoon.
Her mother, Anne Graham Lotz, daughter of Billy Graham, is asking for prayers.
Lotz said she had been told by a doctor that Rachel-Ruth suffers from a rare condition called 'broken heart syndrome', which the Mayo Clinic describes as "a temporary heart condition that's often brought on by stressful situations and extreme emotions". According to Mayo, the causes of broken heart syndrome are "unclear".
Rachel-Ruth is married with three children and serves on the board of directors for her mother's outreach AnGeL Ministries where she also chairs a weekly prayer team.”
By the grace of Almighty God all of them overcame these scary and significant health and emotional hurdles. But till this day I haven’t heard from any of them any public retrospective statements related with the cause of their suffering, none.
The same with many churches which are silent to this they on this topic, and all too many Christians with immediately changed face expressions are avoiding this conversations. But we need truth and repentance. Often God is shaking us for that purpose and if we still refuse to see our sin at some point God can withdraw the blessing of his mercy and substitute it with the curse of His holy anger.
Evangelist Franklin Graham (son of Billy Graham) for ABC News in March 2021:
“I think for a pastor to tell someone not to take the vaccine is problematic because what would happen if that person got coronavirus and died?
I think if there were vaccines available in the time of Christ, Jesus would have made reference to them and used them."
Associated Press, November 8, 2021:
“Evangelist Franklin Graham successfully underwent a specialized heart surgery on Monday to treat a condition which had developed in recent months, a spokesman said.
Mark Barber, a spokesman for North Carolina-based Samaritan’s Purse, said in a news release that Graham underwent the procedure at Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota.
“In recent months, according to the news release, the son of the late evangelist Billy Graham had developed constrictive pericarditis, inflammation, and hardening of the sac around the heart that compresses the heart and prevents it from working properly.”
Christianity Today, January 14, 2022:
“The granddaughter of late evangelist Billy Graham is in hospital after suffering two back-to-back heart attacks over the weekend.
Rachel-Ruth Lotz was hospitalized on Saturday night after suffering the first heart attack. She then suffered a second heart attack on Sunday afternoon.
Her mother, Anne Graham Lotz, daughter of Billy Graham, is asking for prayers.
Lotz said she had been told by a doctor that Rachel-Ruth suffers from a rare condition called 'broken heart syndrome', which the Mayo Clinic describes as "a temporary heart condition that's often brought on by stressful situations and extreme emotions". According to Mayo, the causes of broken heart syndrome are "unclear".
Rachel-Ruth is married with three children and serves on the board of directors for her mother's outreach AnGeL Ministries where she also chairs a weekly prayer team.”
By the grace of Almighty God all of them overcame these scary and significant health and emotional hurdles. But till this day I haven’t heard from any of them any public retrospective statements related with the cause of their suffering, none.
The same with many churches which are silent to this they on this topic, and all too many Christians with immediately changed face expressions are avoiding this conversations. But we need truth and repentance. Often God is shaking us for that purpose and if we still refuse to see our sin at some point God can withdraw the blessing of his mercy and substitute it with the curse of His holy anger.
This interview and the points here are extremely helpful. One of the best interviews I’ve watched. Very well thought out points and great pastoral counsel and encouragement.
Keep it up Megan. Im just a SB pew sitter snd Ive seen this without your book and tried to convey this to my church and noone wants to know! Its insane but we are in the end times. These same very godly people will Amen when Paul confronts Peter, but cant see the problem staring rhem in the face!
Excellent interview. We should not be muted of silent in obeying Jesus and proclaiming the Gospel!♥️😊
Appreciate this book. I am still reading it and Megan has helped me figure out why I have been confused by some of the left turns I have been requested to take.
“What sorrow awaits the leaders of my people-the shepherds of my sheep-for they have destroyed and scattered the very ones they were expected to care for,” says the LORD.
2¶Therefore, this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says to these shepherds: “Instead of caring for my flock and leading them to safety, you have deserted them and driven them to destruction. Now I will pour out judgment on you for the evil you have done to them.
Romans 16:17-20
17 Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. 18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple. 19 For your obedience has become known to all. Therefore I am glad on your behalf; but I want you to be wise in what is good, and simple concerning evil. 20 And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly.
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
"But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another." -- Galatians 5:15
Verses 17-18 written with Calvinist reformers in mind.
I can't wait to read this book!
She’s addressed this multiple times very clearly.
she's afraid of gavin ortlund because he proved she blatantly lied about him
czcams.com/video/-3ClEkfP8pM/video.html
Evangelist Franklin Graham (son of Billy Graham) for ABC News in March 2021:
“I think for a pastor to tell someone not to take the vaccine is problematic because what would happen if that person got coronavirus and died?
I think if there were vaccines available in the time of Christ, Jesus would have made reference to them and used them."
Associated Press, November 8, 2021:
“Evangelist Franklin Graham successfully underwent a specialized heart surgery on Monday to treat a condition which had developed in recent months, a spokesman said.
Mark Barber, a spokesman for North Carolina-based Samaritan’s Purse, said in a news release that Graham underwent the procedure at Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota.
“In recent months, according to the news release, the son of the late evangelist Billy Graham had developed constrictive pericarditis, inflammation, and hardening of the sac around the heart that compresses the heart and prevents it from working properly.”
Christianity Today, January 14, 2022:
“The granddaughter of late evangelist Billy Graham is in hospital after suffering two back-to-back heart attacks over the weekend.
Rachel-Ruth Lotz was hospitalized on Saturday night after suffering the first heart attack. She then suffered a second heart attack on Sunday afternoon.
Her mother, Anne Graham Lotz, daughter of Billy Graham, is asking for prayers.
Lotz said she had been told by a doctor that Rachel-Ruth suffers from a rare condition called 'broken heart syndrome', which the Mayo Clinic describes as "a temporary heart condition that's often brought on by stressful situations and extreme emotions". According to Mayo, the causes of broken heart syndrome are "unclear".
Rachel-Ruth is married with three children and serves on the board of directors for her mother's outreach AnGeL Ministries where she also chairs a weekly prayer team.”
By the grace of Almighty God all of them overcame these scary and significant health and emotional hurdles. But till this day I haven’t heard from any of them any public retrospective statements related with the cause of their suffering, none.
The same with many churches which are silent to this they on this topic, and all too many Christians with immediately changed face expressions are avoiding this conversations. But we need truth and repentance. Often God is shaking us for that purpose and if we still refuse to see our sin at some point God can withdraw the blessing of his mercy and substitute it with the curse of His holy anger.
What is "this"?
The Gavin stuff
@@chrisgregory1160 no she hasn't. Two reasons for why she hasn't: 1. probably hundreds at this point have commented that she hasn't (*and proposed solutions for doing so*), and 2. Gavin (and at least one other person referenced in the book) have published multiple videos because she hasn't been forthright and clear. If she was, then they either wouldn't feel the need to make any videos or think multiple videos should be published.
Thank you!
Megan's book is likely one of the most significant books published regarding modern day evangelicalism, identifying a large scale systemic rot that's taken place. And yet, there's been a deafening silence from both James White and Apologia Studios on this matter. These are both Christian''s and organizations that have been pivotal for my growth as a young Christian. And they are YT'ers who generally cover any and all things transpiring under the sun. Silence is a statement. And each day that passes without an address is an indictment upon them.
Just ordered the book today. Excited to read it!
Megan, I hope you will do a audio version of your book. I’m still gonna buy a hardcopy, but I’d like a audio version as well.
Its on Audible. I am listening to it now.
@@CC-ii3ijgreat thanks
Not only is it on Audible, but she actually reads the book herself, which is great!
Also on Spotify if you have Premium.
I’m shocked that any Christian can believe in global warming when the threat of it is a universal flood.
I prescribe rainbow meditations.
Just ordered it.
Most, if not all denominations have run a muck. Ive been saved over 45 yrs. Ive been in different churches over the years due to moving to various locations. The changes Ive seen since I first became a christian is amazing. My husband and I stopped becoming members of churches a few years ago. Although, we still attend church. There are still a few good churches out there, but not very many. Its starts in the pulpits....
Watching the online cope from all the big Eva defenders has been hilarious
Have any of them glorified God by repenting yet?
@@rinihogewoning6528 Infiltrators don't repent, they gaslight.
Jared Longshore is one of the three men interviewing Megan. Longshore noted that the same Big Eva shrillers were attacking Voddie Baucham back in 2021-22 after he published his book Fault Lines.
@@rinihogewoning6528 they will never repent. 4 years on from Covid and blm and they refuse to
@@mjabate one of the best books of the last 5 years
I like to watch Gavin because he is one of the most nuanced and well thought out protestant church history guys on CZcams. If I watch a video of his, I view it through the lens of the pattern he set up through his consistent behavior. Thanks to him I was made aware that this book exists and I wanted to hear the other perspective on the controversy. I would say I’m generally in favor of the message of the book, but I won’t put in the time to read it, as I have plenty of other books I want to read.
If I got it correctly then there are two main critique points of Gavin.
1. He shifts the conversation from _“Is climate change true?”_ to _“Since climate change is true, what do we do about it?”_
2. He allowed for conservative people to attack your book
---
I can see how some people can come to the conclusion that Gavin shifts the conversation from one question to a different one. Most people view certain topics through a tribal lens. When they find out someone is of the other tribe, then they stop caring about the actual statements and the actual opinions and instead look at the possible implications. It is fully correct that
- Gavin gave the climate change narrative a voice on his channel.
- He said that this is an important topic.
- He said that scholars hold certain views
- He said that his own views align with those scholars.
- In my opinion he also didn’t give the opposing scholars a fair shake.
One thing he never did was say that his viewers should now hold those very same views. If you think that this is his position then you are plain wrong. The actual conclusion of his videos is that since the topic is important, we should treat it as such and look into it closely.
I could agree to the argument that certain viewers of his videos may have the takeaway that they now ought to belief the same things as he does. After all he presented the case for this position. I would recommend him that he should mention, that this is not his intention when making those videos, but he already does so several times per video.
Through this video it seems to me, that Megan is at least partially aware of that. But based on second hand accounts and quotes from the book, it seems like that it was not only not stated that way in the book, it was even worded in a way that it was very easy to come to the opposite conclusion of the actual truth.
If that analysis of mine is correct, then it would be appropriate of Megan to make an apology along the lines of _“I’m sorry, I worded that clumsily. I should have made my point clearer.”_
If I’m not mistaken then most of that controversy of the Gavin crowd would disappear pretty quickly. And based on the second response video of Gavin, it would be quite likely that he would accept that apology cheerfully.
---
I agree that the response of Gavin greenlighted the attacks on the book. But that is a pretty narrow take on it. Megan also greenlighted attacks on Gavin.
I fully agree, that Gavin is a pretty minor part of the whole book. So no matter what the outcome of the Gavin question is, the core of the book is not shaken. But the question which Gavin raised questions about the credibility of Megan. Here I may also mention that the book opened up the very same credibility question about Gavin. And because of that, I think it is fully justified of Gavin to clarify those aspects that are relevant to his position and his credibility in a way that it is heard.
---
In this conversation you mentioned that the whole Gavin debacle is just a little screw of a big warship. You mentioned that you will stand up for even the screws and you also mentioned that pushback shows that you are right on the target. The actual warship of the book is that there is a leftist agenda infiltrating the Christian circles and that they want to shape politics through the help of Christian compassion. _(the you in this paragraph is not Megan specific but the participants as a collective)._
Let me set up my own little warship. Right leaning public Christians also fall to some bad patterns. I have heard it plenty times, that we are not allowed to give an inch, because the leftists take any inch they can without giving anything back. If we combine that with the thought that any pushback is because we are obviously pointing at truth and the people with wrong believes can’t handle it, then we get a potent mixture. We get into a mindset where we can’t critique ourselves anymore, or at the very least we can’t do so publicly. We defend our allies on tribal grounds alone without considering who is in the right. We forget that we also have lenses on which shape our perception.
And to bring a third mast to my warship, the right leaning Christians sometimes view things a little bit too much through the lens of capitalism. And there is a saying called no publicity is bad publicity. Let’s assume we now have a great warship. It is all shiny and strong, but people don’t notice it. And through a mistake of our own, we accidentally deformed a small screw on our ship. Suddenly everybody points at this imperfection and we get large attention. If we fix it, the attention goes away, if we don’t fix it in just the right way, then our battleship is suddenly much more effective. How big is the temptation to ignore the small injustice that can be explained away as plausible deniability, when our main goal is getting boosted by a lot?
The last few controversies in the right leaning circles on CZcams showed that those are problems that actually exist. I just took those problems and a few of the statements made in this video to setup this argument of mine. I have no clue about any of the participants here besides Doug. Because of that I obviously don’t know if any of what I mentioned here applies to anyone in either a conscious or subconscious level. But I think this is something we should at least be careful off. We wouldn’t want to discredit our credibility though some irrelevant side issue and we wouldn’t want to sin against our brother in Christ because we think “cause justify the means”. In case you read this, please pray for humbleness, an open heart and clarity on this issue.
Well said. Thank you. I enjoy Doug Wilson, Megan Bashan, AND Gavin Orlund.
@@erikgriffith8857 I only know Doug and Gavin and I enjoy both. If you feel that your point gets misrepresented then it is often difficult to view things through the other lens. I think that is happening here on both sides.
But as far as I can tell, Gavin is the one who reacts more mature in this topic. Maybe not all of his defenders, but certainly he is.
Why the lengthy comments if you haven’t read the book. Please read the book… It is that important.
@@woodyshoemaker168 I listened to the take of Gavin and of Megan. So I listened to the main characters involved in it and that is sufficient to form an opinion on it.
Listening to three videos for free vs. buying and reading a book are two different investments. I hope having an opinion on this topic is not behind a paywall.
What's kind of amazing about the whole dust up with Ortlund, is that Megan's criticism of him and his environmental views is really small potatoes when you read the whole book. Yes, she has some pointed words for his approach on the topic, but honestly, you need to read the book and you will see that Ortlund is really a small, small fish in this fetid pond of corruption and ideological capture. Megan has done a huge service for ALL Christians - not just evangelicals - as we know these same forces are at work throughout the Church. I have read the book and I did watch Gavin's multiple video critiques/defenses. I think he comes off a little defensive but also very human. Who among us wouldn't feel ruffled under such scrutiny? Finally, I think Megan is more than ready for the push back and my only real annoyance or irritation is that many of the "reviewers" on Amazon clearly haven't read the book and come across as disgruntled Ortland fans rather than thoughtful interolocutors.
Megan did a really sloppy job with Gavin. And it's not just "Oh you said page 18 but it was actually 17" like Doug implied. If you do sloppy work, you may discredit yourself. It's not Gavin's fault for pointing out the truth.
I know you're not clever enough to take note, but Gavin has asked you to do research without offering any sources. That is because he has done nothing but pass on the orders he has received from others. Gavin is neither a geologist nor a meteorologist. He is a theologian, and that is his limit. Do you believe he has spent endless hours delving into the works of scientists only to offer you nothing in return?😂
If you buy into the left ideology, you may discredit yourself
Great point about reasoning from the Bible versus reasoning from a nonbiblical stance w/ a few Bible bits added on.
And yes, her book has started conversion about that.. we’ve been having some discussion about “creation care” and the biblical order of man over earth - it’s not earth over man (that’s an extreme argument of CC: “depopulation”)
This was a great conversation.
First, the money goes to the big, secular influencers and causes.
Then, the Christian influencers who were influenced by them gather the message and say things like:
I think about this every day. This is really on my heart. This is just as important as being pro-life. It is really true that man is causing climate change and so we in the west have to do something about it - change laws and policies, use carbon credits, whatever we have to do so that we rich white nations can help others.
Also - the male boxers beating on the females. I’ve seen several different so called Christian men defending those guys. I think boxing is vulgar and don’t think women should be boxing, but I know men shouldn’t be hitting women.
The nature of some of the comments here suggest people have fashioned Gavin Ortlund into an idol.
Amen…i am reading this because of the battleship!!
He never said reasonable Christians HAVE to agree to anything. That's utter bs. I watched the video as well.
Shhhh ... you'll wake up Doug and the boys
I also watched the video and it is something he clearly (whether intentionally or not) implies. Many people who have watched his video and read her book have said she characterized him fairly.
@@noahhaight4842 give me the quote where he says or implies that it’s impossible to disagree with him and be a reasonable person?
@@Eloign Protestia's video on Ortlund does just that. I highly recommend watching it.
@@noahhaight4842 I don’t need a third party poisoning my view of things. I did watch the video. I asked you specially for a quote that proves Gavin claimed it was impossible to be reasonable and disagree with him. It doesn’t exist.
Yes he believes in climate change. That’s not a sin. He’s not a wolf. He’s a brother with whom I disagree. He’s done more to reach the lost than either of us. He’s not affirming or otherwise compromised. She screwed up attacking him bottom line. It took away from her other valid points.
But I don’t believe women should be teaching men or correcting them in public like this anyway. It’s not biblical and she’s out of line and so are they for propping her up as a sound person to lead the church in discerning doctrine or practice.
I'd be a lot more receptive to Basham if she didn't make completely bad-faith attacks on Gavin Ortlund. Anyone who has watched himfor more than 10 seconds knows he is neither politically motivated nor an idealogue.
Gavin is both, and you are too blind to see it.
@@The_Urchin13 I would love to see any example of this aside from the climate change video where he explicitly states "It's ok if you disagree with me on this, I just want people to take this question seriously and do research".
@@michaelbailey406but the climate change video is what was criticized of Ortlund….
@@cyberpirate101 No, Ortlund as a whole was criticized with the climate change video as an example. He has 368 videos on YT rn. Picking one to paint a narrative of him as a "shepherd for sale" is bad-faith at best.
@@michaelbailey406 how was he criticized?
Doug you must respond to the claims about Gavin this is an amazing reformed Christian brother holding together theological charity and triage. He needs you're support. He was slandered
That's been thoroughly discussed, including in this video. Ortlund was not slandered, he was represented fairly. I get that a lot of his fans are fiercely loyal of him and have wholly bought into his two attack videos on Basham. But I read the book, watched his original climate change video, then re-read that portion of the chapter. It was very obvious to me that everything she said about him was true. in contrast, some of his words about her were demonstratably false.
One more note here. Ortlund argues that the earth is millions of years old, even though God's Word says otherwise. He argues that the global flood in Genesis 6 was actually a regional event, even though God's Word says otherwise. And he argues without qualification for climate change ideology, which holds that climate change will end human life on earth, even though God's Word says otherwise. There's a trend here of Ortlund putting man's word above God's Word, and trusting "the science" more than Scripture. That's a very serious error and one that would disqualify him from being a pastor at any decent church. He might be solid on a lot of issues, but he's compromised in this area.
@@jaredhageman4986 he is sold out for his views on climate change, local flood view, and his views Genesis? Just making sure I'm getting things correct
What??????? The reformed Calvinist god decreed all this .
If he's not a coward he can handle a little criticism.
@@ronaldhart9457 It was not "criticism." It was a lie.
I have the book. And Megan is a true gem❤️
I went ahead and bought the book after seeing her interviews earlier and passing but the details that came out made me wanna see Streisands mansion so to speak
It is definitely a book worth reading. I listened to the audio version and I'm thinking I will probably do so a second time. It's that important.
@jaredhageman4986 seems the pattern in these responses weoponozwd autism to the reaction to weoponized ambiguity (this may have evolutionary reasons for happening, ie why its what characterizes the leftist drift because it works, alinsky, Freire, marceuse et al knew what they were about, but it seems its a natural selection process of what leftist tactics end up drifting things left rather than a necessarily conscious move by the Gavin stans or Gavin himself. I don't think the right has this characteristic because of the nature of what being on the right means. You build institutions and are open about what you are doing whereas the left almost always takes over institutions. Kinda like Saruman, they can only devolve not create. That may be unfair and the right has its own mass formation and borg versions, Israel lobby and dispensationalism seem kinda borgish but there is a selection bias that the March through the institutions would not capture the anti institutional types of Christians or post institutional Christians that are creating parallel societies and ironically, institutions. Megan is offering a valuable service to those not so autistic to see the effect of Gavins environmental video whatever the 'nuanced' ireneic and charitable take would be. The example of him, someone inroads and watch and like shows how even good teachers fall prey to the framing of leftist mass formation. Indeed, as Robert Conquest said any institution not explicitly right leaning will always drift left. I realize I'm imanatizing this frame some but I could also go the pageau encchantment route to see the same process, and I realize both the devil and God aren't trapped into boxes like we may imagine and Maybe God does it that way in purpose to keep us from getting too comfortable in our analysis but my comment mostly concerns the dynamic of the push pull drift that you see with the Olympic ceremy and the boxer as nauseum and with with nausea in the former case. The Gavin backlash gets super particular and distracts from clear 'what are the words doing '. Though the words are ambiguous the thrust is not at all. The gaslighting comes in with the plausible deniability as with the dionysus versus last supper ambiguity or the boxer having dsd. But what does the controversy actually do? Conscious or not, it gets a reaction the you are seeing what you you're seeing gas is turned up and down and the cycle commences when the next news cycle hits. Gavin is definitely not a bad guy in this and I know I and many others often have unconscious presuppositions (I bet I have plenty here) that either gaslight or lead people down ways not in accordance with God's plan. I welcome critiques and have who knows how many unconscious biases. I'm very conscious of my conservative in the Kirk/Burke sense and Chestertonian fence has become more and more apparently valid to me.
I would like to pose the question how are people getting into heaven by climate change? Its ok to believe in climate change but how does that impact eternal destiny?
Ortlund cites the Bible exhortation for man to be a steward of creation to rationalize pushing the manmade global warming propaganda. But the pagans adopt climate change to push for abortion to cannibalism to reduce human carbon footprint
It doesn't. And I've never heard anyone ever say that.
Great book. Be careful in your choice of spiritual leadership.
The woke pastors lost their fear and reverence for God. Just like Micah for ten shekels and a shirt. ( sermon by Paris Reidhead).
The irony is, if the Law of God explicitly made statements about preventing climate change pastors and professors of the R2K & Klinean bent would argue that Christian pastors should not use the Bible to fight against it.
I like Gavin Ortlund as a rule. I am closer to him on old earth and local flood. I disagree with Megan on those issues. But Megan is accurate here. She responded to his public climate teaching. Not here say. Not unclear teachings. His position is very clear and very public and a very good example of the downstream teaching that has permeated the church because of upstream “sell outs”. Good job Megan.
I honestly don't know what to think about the Keller speech act theory stuff. I actually remember hearing about it back then and thinking it bizarre. On the one hand, it's a part of language. People constantly say one thing but intend their words to accomplish something else (i.e. sarcasm). On the other hand, it's a pretty convenient way of ignoring what people actually said and reading motives into their words.
For example, someone could read the above paragraph, acknowledge what's being said, but then point out how these words... at this time... on this specific video... obviously implies that the writer hates women. Thoughts??? How do we keep this mechanism from going wack???
I don’t know if this directly responds, but it is actually part of leftist praxis.. they will code their words. It’s like “gender affirming care” means having surgery that removes healthy body parts, for example. “Black lives matter” was more subtle and clever, it’s a truism, and yet it also meant a movement with specific policies like defunding the police.
We just have to use discernment? 🫢
The theory sounds like a necessary precursor to making speech a crime.
Yes, I very much agree.
Speech does “act,” “do things.” But that action is tied to what is actually said and intended.
It’s total error to interpret/measure what the language “does” by the mere reaction or imposed interpretation of readers upon it.
It’s a misuse of speech act theory categories to impose arbitrary “reader response” views on the action directed to be taken in the speech.
Gavin is not obligated to refrain from objecting to how he is written about just because it might have a “bad effect” on the reception of an otherwise good book. The “action” called for by his speech would be an investigation of the accuracy of his claims and reconciliation of the parties involved.
To go beyond this is a terrible misuse of speech act theory’s category of perlocution. It was a bad excuse when Keller used it back then and it’s not a good use now.
@@JonJaeden leftists have made certain speech a crime, see Canada
@@jrhemmerichyou might want to delete your comment if this is supposed to be a defense of Gavin.
What were the “acts” supposed to be from his climate change video? You’ve just argued for a stronger action, which strengthens Megan’s point about the videos impact.
Why does Ortlund only have hard words for Trump's Christians and not Biden's? Ortlund has picked a side, and it isn't the right one.
All we wanted was the Dobbs decision What happened next was shocking by extremists like Se. Elizabeth Warren and VP Mike Pence.
there were a lot of Christian groups at school why didn't you get involved in them??????
How did we get to the point where someone can be confessionally conservative but politically liberal?
Reformers Calvinists have e used leftists tactics to
Propagate their beliefs first many decades.
They can't truly be
The sad part is, opinions on Gavin are being formed without getting his side in the same way the author's side is chosen. I don't mean to condemn the whole of the book, but in Gavin's case his concern is that he is being falsely accused, and it seems like the opinion with this group is "You are getting pushback that means you are right."
Proverbs 18 warns about making conclusions from part of a story. Would you be willing to reach out to Gavin and interview him in the same way? Save your brother from the fire if you are concerned for him.
If you listen to Gavins response to her critiques - I saw on Daily Wire - his own comments show he is very on board with "Creation Care" (ie climate change) - and he stated the comment that those in the West are the greatest consumers of all the "good (ie - the Western nations are the who make life on planet earth difficult for those in third world nations) which is completely false.
China is the greatest offender (and India) on pollution and yet the finger is always pointed at the western nations as the culprits.
I think Gavin's response is reason enough for his inclusion in the book.
@@velvetstitching3631I recommend watching his video not excerpts from Fox News lite
@@velvetstitching3631 uhhh, he's never said that. I've been watching him for years now. Not as long as I have others, like Frank Turek or Doug, but you still get an understanding of someone after years of listening to what he/she has to say. So, you've accepted a strawman and that's good enough for you. I hope you never get on a jury if that is so--after one witness cutting & splicing some hearsay, you're on board with that witness.
@@jayv3264 respectfully - Gavin Ortlund isn't on trial. Facts (or even theories and opinions) are being presented and we who view them need to disseminate with due diligence and with biblical discernment.
It IS hard to see someone we respect and admire, who has influenced our own character and thoughts, say things or reveal things that are the antithesis of our own beliefs. But when they state things that are the antithesis of truth - I do look very keenly at the conversation.
It is true I don't know Gavin Ortlund, and I don't know Megan Basham - but I attended church under JD Greear for decades. And I attended SEBTS and classes with Dr Danny Akin.
I heard firsthand some of the statements the author of this book says they spoke - and at the time it brought confusion that they held such beliefs, (or had been drawn into these belief systems) - to promote social justice.
And have (perhaps) unwittingly perpetuated the Climate Change agenda as well, which is not biblical. Most scientists will (quietly) state they do NOT believe in climate change the way it is being foisted upon the world - but for them to dare to dissent is to be sidelined (at best) or completely cancelled in worst case scenarios.
I have a link for you on Gavin Ortlund:
"Climate Change: Why Christians Should Engage," CZcams video, March 2, 2022, czcams.com/video/XRDkBHUXNd0/video.html
@@velvetstitching3631 the idea of an analogy goes right over your head, apparently, lol, because I never said he or anyone else is on trial. Thank you for further making the point for me, much appreciated.
There are very, very few people I admire, and none of these people involved in the conversation have my admiration--they have my respect, but not my admiration. So, as you put it then, I lean toward more objectivity regarding the personalities involved. Again, appreciated .
I've seen that video before (it came up as a related video soon after Gavin published it because it involved climate change after I had watched a video by either Alex Epstein or Bjorn Lomborg), and many commenters on here are glossing over the clarifying qualifers he amply says (and a number of other commenters have also pointed out). I don't know why the glossing occurs. But because it occurs, and because either no one addresses it or cuts-&-splices, like Megan did, the motivation is not above water, and most certainly unchristian toward a brother in Christ.
Furthermore, another gentleman Megan discusses has also had pushback against her by those who pay attention to what he speaks about. I've never even heard of that other person, but I know he's been mentioned in other comments of this video. God made us pattern-seekers, and while Megan and those who support her book (enthusiastically and casually) applaud her pattern-seeking, there are others who see problems with the pattern she's come up---and those who push-back possess just as capable and just as relevant pattern-seeking abilities. And they are just as knowledgeable on the subject matter as she and her book's supporters are, or else they (we, I guess, since I'm giving some pushback regarding Gavin) wouldn't even be doing otherwise.
For additional clarification, none of Mary's objectors are suggesting she's totally wrong, or even mostly wrong, just that there is some revising and tweaking that needs to occur. The only perfect book (or compendium of books, lol) is the Bible. All others are open to criticism because they are all imperfect in some way(s). That's objective fact, and the criticisms should be appreciated, not hand-waved, nor the criticizers name-called like we're children on a playground.
We all want to get things accurate, so let's work toward that. After all, that's what God wants for us to do.
Anyone else notice the Theracane in the background??
And more updated problems with the book:
czcams.com/video/LPUlwF379yA/video.htmlsi=zrWUo8_-5L_wIyQp
Ok. I need to read this
I'm a Canon+ subscriber and a monthly supporter of Ortlund. The unapologetic misrepresentation of Gavin is saddening.
Can you actually explain the how? I have yet to see someone do that. I watched Ortlunds response and his old videos Megan referenced and her summary of him was accurate.
@@sammyt4549 There are extensive videos from Chris Date and Trinity Radio. They agree with the point of Megan's book, but they clearly show the unfortunate equivocations occurring. Either that, or you can start by giving a statement about him you believe is true? Then it's simpler to point out where Ortlund directly says something else.
@@sammyt4549 The main misrepresentation is basically she claims that Ortlund says that disagreeing with the climate change narrative is buying into a hoax and conspiracy.
@fartoofar65 you mean her? Yes, she did that.
@@EmilTennis00
That is what he said in the video.
Doug saying Gavin shouldn’t comment because he’s responsible for igniting “open season” on criticisms towards this book is absolutely ridiculous. Firstly Gavin only commented on the parts of this book he’s called out in. He did NOT criticize the book as a whole. We also have freedom of speech here. Instead of defending her position on Gavin she and Doug simply talk about how “innocent” she is. Linking Gavin’s name with others who are grossly out of line theologically is slander. Unbelievable to suggest Gavin should never have responded to this book. If you can’t take Gavin’s critique defend your use of his supposed quotes instead of whining about the backlash you received or wailing about how right you are. You slandered a good man’s name simply because you disagree with him on a minor issue like climate change. Go figure because you work at the daily wire. It is not ok what you did just because he’s on a few pages. It shouldn’t be done and he deserves an apology.
Gosh…this is sickening to me to watch these Christian men sycophantically pat her on the back when it’s clearly documented that she has lied about faithful brothers.
Jesus commanded that we must always try to resolve our grievances with each other PRIVATELY before involving others (Matt 18:15-17); Megan should’ve talked with Gavin privately about her concerns in good faith before deciding to criticize him in a public book.
Very grateful for Joe Rigney’s ability to articulate the problem with Ortlund’s climate videos. If Ortlund’s sycophants would bother to watch this video, it may quiet them down.
Two things can be true. Ortlund can be misrepresented (and he was, she didn’t just use him as a downstream example, if she had there would not be the legit complaints). And the book can make a valid important point.
To call brothers such as myself (who enjoy and support many of the promoters of this book as well as Gavin) his “sycophants” is the wrong posture. Just because you care more about Megan’s mission than you do Gavin’s reputation doesn’t make your dismissal of his concerns valid.
It’s not “man pleasing” to defend what is true. The evidence of misrepresentation is there and many intelligent people see it.
The solution would be to acknowledge the complaint and sideline it to be addressed.
I recognize that is a hard thing to do. But that would be the correct thing.
That's a misdirection. There are tremendous problems with Ortlund's views on climate and science in his videos. He doesn't care if you criticize his views. Indeed, he asked you to bring your science to the table and talk. This issue is about a specific lie that Basham manufactured and put in Ortlund's mouth that is 180 degrees from what his video, taken in toto as it should be, says.
@@jrhemmerich It would only be the correct thing if it were _correct._ I watched Ortlund's videos, and a number of other clips of him addressing climate change. Basham got it all right. I'm not sure how everybody gets off claiming he has been misrepresented when I've heard Basham's claims, and I've heard Ortlund prove them _from his own mouth._
Nobody yet has been able to give any specific instance where Basham said something patently untrue. John Harris has a montage of Ortlund saying literally everything Basham reported he said. Check it out.
did you watch the Chris Date video?
@@pigetstuck I watched until I got to the part that credited Date as the author of a book called "Rethinking Hell", which is a book supporting the heresy called "conditionalism", which is nothing more than a repackaging of the heresy called annihilationism. I don't need the opinion of someone who already denies clear Biblical doctrine.
The edit at 7:06 is a little confusing
So is the book solely based and name names on the financial support of the left in the church? Or does it show the financial support of the right in the church as well?
sigh
@@CanonPress it’s a legitimate question based on the same logic of follow the money?
For those defending Gavin. It is ok to admit that someone is wrong on one point. He is wrong and when you can't just say that you acknowledge you are a partisan who worships a man.
Not even close. Have you heard Gavin’s responses to all of this? It is clearly a misrepresentation.
@chanano1689 I watched his response. This video is right on point. Gavin admits to be a climate change activist and that he wants Christians to start the conversation about climate
I disagree with Ortland on climate change. I also see that basham clearly bore false witness against ortland.
@@MrDenjok yes he may be for bringing climate awareness which people can do without carrying all the political baggage, but he didn’t at all pose it as Christians have to do this. He said we can disagree on this.
@@chanano1689 exactly. Some folks need to listen to the whole message, not just a few seconds or a couple spliced quotes.
Why should i read this book?
I disagree on Ortlund being a relatively conservative figure who is not much of an issue. The premise of many of his videos is that secular, atheistic, humanistic foundations are necessarily definitely true, and that the word of the creator God must be subject to it. He decimates whole sections of Genesis and puts wild, unbiblical ideas into people’s heads about it. I have seen hundreds of commenters on his videos thanking Ortlund that they suddenly no longer must feel convicted by and subject to God’s word because they now have a myriad of ways to undermine God’s word in light of “science.” This is an extremely dangerous game and again, is teaching people primarily that they can ignore scripture when they feel like it doesn’t fit with their priors rather than them having their framework shaped by the word of God.
You are exactly right. There's a definite pattern of him putting man's word above God's Word. I think he has a blind spot here. He finds "the science" more credible than Scripture, and that's a big problem. He most definitely would not be qualified to be an elder at my church because of this. Someone who chips away at the authority of Scripture like this is not a conservative theologian.
I will also note that these errors seem to build on each other. In his ill-conceived climate change video, he argues that the earth has always warmed and cooled, but not at the rate that it is now. He argues something to the effect that the average temperature at the arctic was in the 60s approximately 50 million years ago. Thus, climate change is always occurring, but not at this rate. Here's the problem: the earth isn't 50 million years old. It's much closer to 6,000. Thus, Ortlund wrongly believes that the temperature swings in earth's history are spread out over tens of millions of years, when the reality is that they are compressed into a few thousand. Seen through that lens, the climate has at times changed at a much faster rate than it is right now, due mostly due the global flood in Genesis 6. But because Ortlund doesn't believe what God says about the age of the earth or the global flood, he's got a whole bunch of faulty premises that lead him to conclude that we have a rapid change in the climate. If Ortlund would only believe Genesis 1-6, he'd be far less likely to believe the climate change hysteria.
Please consider alternative views that still have a high view of scripture. Don’t assume to much
@@ireniccontender I didn't say that Ortlund doesn't have a high view of Scripture, but it seems relatively obvious that his view of "the science" is higher.
I would say science or rather natural revelation informs his interpretation of scripture
A concordance view as called by some
Scripture is pre imminent
@@ireniccontender it’s not natural revelation, it’s a humanistic framework built by people who hate God and want to deny him. As such, it cannot “inform” our interpretation of scripture any more than any other humanistic atheistic framework can.
Sorry... I'm going to read this book. Not sorry, really. Thanks for this interview.
Why is Janet Mefferd reacting so harshly against this book?
I have become a one issue voter.
If you do not know what that issue is. I will pray for you.
Bring Gavin and Basham together
Does Wade live in Moscow? If so have him on for all the Doug and friends!
Ummm no way is he outing Ortunland. Debate time
“Remember, when they squeal, it means there was a direct hit.”
Thanks!!!
I so hope the book has biblical principles and standards vs suspicions and innuendo. There are too many people talking in generalities and making vague propositions against people because they are not in the Wilson camp. It is so easy to become part of the problem in being fueled by gossip.
They discuss so many things Gavin “didn’t say” and then blame him for all those things. Really annoying
It borders on false witness, if not a straight up lie. She owes Dr. Ortlund an apology.
What things did they say he said but he didn’t say?
@@7heHopeManYour misunderstood what he said. He said they’re criticizing Gavin for *not* saying things that they think he should’ve said.
Ortlund never claims that reasonable Christians have to agree that Climate change is an existential threat. This is yet another example of people putting words in his mouth that he did not say.
He does say as much, in so many words. You didn’t watch the video she’s referencing in her book. He likens believing in man-made catastrophic climate change to being pro-life. Among many other troubling statements, insulting and belittling any opposing viewpoint as “conspiracy” and “shooting from the hip.”
@@vejoshiraptor dude I've watched the video like 4 times and I've read her book and I've watched the response videos. He never claims that all reasonable Christians have to agree that climate change is an existential threat. But you can easily prove me wrong. Just tell me the timestamp in the video where he says that.
Without those words put in Ortlund's mouth, Basham would have had no reason to include him in her book. She had to dirty him. How do you introduce your dark narrative about nefarious Christian leaders selling out the church to the left with a soft-spoken, theologically conservative, nerdy-ish California pastor who once upon a time created a single 35-minute CZcams video discribing his passion for climate change with a banal rendition of U.N.-approved talking points and asking for Christians to talk about it. And he didn't even know who Greta Thunberg was.
A well-meaning climate dupe might be good for a few laughs or a but-for-the-grace-of-God=goes=your-pastor warning, but not for what Basham needed to do. He needed to be a threat. He needed to say scary things. So, Basham created the Orlund she needed ... out of dust ... in her own image.
The lie was not incidental. It was a necessary component.
@@vejoshiraptor incorrect. he says that a Christian should be eager to discuss climate change since, if true, it would threaten life
@@travispelletier3352 I doubt your claim that you’ve read the book. If you did, you would be much more concerned about the extreme problems that it clearly presents rather than some squabble one liberal pastor has who is barely even mentioned in the book at all.
Toby Sumpter has an article on his site titled “GAVIN ORTLUND, MEGAN BASHAM, AND EVANGELICAL CLIMATEGATE”. Google it and it provides all quotes and analysis you need. No one put words in Ortlund’s mouth.
She needs to repent about slandering Gavin Ortland. She legitimately lied about him and his content, and in doing so made me not want to read the book. I'm a conservative calvinistic Christian and I disagree with Gavin on many things but I watch a lot of his content to see different points of view so that I can better argue against them, but he is most definitely not a shepherd for sale.
How do you know she lied if you haven't read the book? How incredibly dense! Ask Gavin about his in-depth meteorological studies, then question his inability to share them with his flock of naïve sheep.😉
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@@The_Urchin13 Don't have to read the whole book it's in the first chapter. Also Gavin put out two response videos and shows her work compared to what he actually said. Again I think Gavin is wrong on many things but he is not a hirling. I'm not saying there aren't many shepherds for sale out there, but I also think we need to be very careful who we fit with that label. Thank you brother for replying to my comment and hope you will continue this conversation with me. Proverbs 18:17 ESV
[17] The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
I’m a huge Doug Wilson and Canon Press supporter, but I can’t support this. This woman intentionally misrepresented Gavin Ortlund and has only continued to double down after clear evidence has come out.
I’m as conservative as they come but the fact that Canon Press is platforming this woman is reprehensible.
The only way to rectify this is to (1) have Ortlund on the program and either debate him or allow him to defend himself, and (2) publicly apologize.
We are held to a higher standard as Christians and Basham falls way below that standard.
The CZcams channel Conversations That Matter directly reviewed the allegations against her, what Ortlund said and what she said and debunked this claim she summarized his long, ignorant, leftist lean, conscious binding climate change speech accurately.
@@ArcherWarhound I don’t understand what is difficult about this.
Saying “Ortlund says that coming to X conclusion about Y topic is… irresponsible.”
is categorically different than saying “Coming to X conclusion without adequately researching Y topic is irresponsible.”
Ortlund said the latter while Basham accused him of saying the former. That’s a blatant misrepresentation.
(The above quotes aren’t verbatim but are in essence the same as the real quotes.)
Until someone can prove that this isn’t what took place (which will never happen, because it is) then Basham is in sin and needs to repent publicly, and Canon Plus needs to apologize for platforming her.
@@D.C.HarrisI’m sorry but why would we care about what Keller would have said?
@@chastaelaine76 Keller would respond with his usual mealy mouthed doubletalk. He was a Democrat hack.
I've read the pages of her book concerning him and listen to his video she referenced. She rightly called him out. Him throwing out a half hearted cya of "do you own research because I'm a theologian not a scientist" after a lengthy speech in which he spouted globalist lies about a global scientific consensus and there being a no incentive for scientists to agree if global warming weren't true and said global warming is a prolife issue that Christians must care about does not absolved him of falling under the sway of bad actors pedaling totalitarianism masked as environmentalism.
I am a very uncompromising man and I make no apologies for it. That disclaimer aside, isn’t time we start calling a spade a spade? Why are these guys pussy-footing around trying not to call someone out with a prophet’s voice. The days of half measures are over; either call them out (and to repentance) or call them “Anathema “, turn them over to God’s judgment, and leave them in the outer darkness. Making apologies for the truth is tantamount to being against the truth itself. And please let’s stop being afraid of having the lawyers sicked on us. Plenty of non-Christians have been more than willing to go to jail for what they believed. We have King Jesus on our side a little jail time should not be driving us to the corners of the room on these issues.
Why is Gavin Ortlund called out and categorised among others...if she is incorrect she needs to apologize
She isn't incorrect. She was actually very charitable with him.
Read. The. Book.
This is what the nazis did with the church in Germany. It was different topics but same guilt tripping.😔
I'm tired of all these interviews with her where she just defends herself. I want to hear about the book.
Here's the problem: in every video where she talks about the book, Ortlund's fanboys spam the comments demanding that she apologize for lying about him. If a neutral person who isn't familiar with the controversy watches the video and reads the comments, they might be persuaded by the lies of Ortlund's attack hounds. Thus, she addresses the controversy and makes a defense of her position, so that people can decide for themselves. It's unfortunate that people who claim to be Christians are putting her on the defensive all the time, but that's the world we find ourselves in.
Read the book.
I have found Gavin Ortland’s response to this book troubling. Not for him, yet for Megan. I’m concerned with journalistic integrity and not bearing false witness. Love Doug and the ministry, but this definitely raises eyebrows.
Have you read the entire first chapter of the book and carefully compared it to Ortlund's original climate change video? Or are you basing your opinion off of Ortlund's two videos attacking Basham's credibility?
Gentlemen, why not have the courage to confront her directly on the splicing and misrepresentation of Gavin's actual quotes? Get her on the record answering that specific criticism! Missed opportunity. SMH
They didn't because she didn't misrepresent him. They're not bound by your emotional reaction to people you respect being exposed.
I respect Gavin’s opinions and spirit that isn’t done for personal gain, quite the opposite
It takes courage to challenge the status quo
Gavin sounds like he is coopting Bible quotes to rationalize the agenda of neo pagans who wish to promote population control
@@ireniccontender Yeah, it takes a lot of courage to promote the world's accepted and cherished narratives like climate change. So brave and courageous.
JD, because they want to be nice in general, and especially nice to DW staff. Conducting Christian integrity falls further down the priority list.
Not sure why so many Christians are coming to the defense of Ortlund who is clearly wrong on the Biblical creation account and "climate change". On either one of those 2 issues, I would have automatically dismissed Ortlund and never listened to anything he says. I have no interest in Christian content creators, pastors or authors who believe in evolution or are taken in by climate alarmism.
Amen! This Ortlund defense bombardment has been disturbing.
It’s not about Gavin. It’s about Megan lying in the book and refusing to repent. Lying about people you disagree with doesn’t fix it.
That’s called being “close minded,” no?
It’s not about agreeing with all his views it’s about how Basham blatantly misrepresented him in her book.
No one is defending Ortlund's positions. We are defending his reputation against the sin of intentional and continuing lies. We don't have the right to sin against someone just because we don't see him as being right. Indeed, we are required to judge him the same as a brother: "And I charged your judges at that time, ‘Hear the cases between your brothers, and judge righteously between a man and his brother or the alien who is with him." -- Deuteronomy 1:16
We are justified FROM sin by the righteousness of Christ, we are not justified TO sin by anyone else's unrighteousness.
I think they saw the perceived "Religious Right" effect and it sounds like this book exposes now the "Religious Left" effort.
Very good interview! Can’t wait to read the book.
So following up on your FOX NotNews interview because you got zero pushback during the interview...you want us to vote in favor of "system racism"? That's the Christian way?
Seems that she is confused about which evangelical shepherds are for sale… seems that the ones she is falsely accusing are pastors who are thoughtful and open to listen to God and stand up for what they think is right. The shepherds who have been sold by the “right agenda” have been spouting political agendas for years and telling congregations who they have to vote for without any repercussions of having their charitable status revoked. These pastors are too afraid of losing older donors to really dig in and read the Bible from a new perspective.
No thanks!
“Gods been good to me after I slandered a brother!”
Sad if there’s no call for her to repent.
Read the book, Christian friends.
Basham is spelled wrong on the red screen...
It should be spelled, "Bash-Him"
typos happen sometimes!
Yes, and she pointed it out. @@CanonPress
Balaam was a sell out too.