What is THE ALGORITHM in Pokemon GO Battle League?
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- čas přidán 24. 06. 2024
- It's time to sit down and talk about the Algorithm in Pokemon GO Battle League! This is a subject of massive debate in our Pokemon GO Community and today I want to share my thoughts on it along with providing you sound advice to start climbing in rating!
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I will run a team for two sets and find hard counters the whole time. I switch to a complete different team, and suddenly new counters, that haven’t seen at all, suddenly come out of the wood work.
?
I Play one Team (my own) and tweak now and then…
I can tell you, there are sets or complete days where I see 2 Pokémon over and over again… but with the same Team, same ELO I face the next day complete other Pokémon…
Has nothing to do if you switch your Team or not, happens everyone.
@@Hubert-rh4hz I guess what I am saying is (as an example) I will run two sets and see medicham 9/10 games. I switch my teams to adjust to Medicham, and I don’t see a single medicham the next 10. (That same day)
I am not saying I think there is algorithm, but is strange.
this happens. not just chance. people argue that it's because you've leveled up on Elo and so people of that level are playing different pokemon. i find it hard to believe that given what you explained.. patterns of hard counters in the lead.
So ur saying that the algo randomly chose u to punish u and not ur opponent?
Should be easy to prove, right?
Built a team 3x weak to Medicham or a other Pokémon which isn’t so common(but still a good one) and you should face it 90% or more.
It will not happen. My team is weak to Pelipper and there are days where I see 4-5/ day and the next day I see 0 of them.
It is what is, Pelipper is not a common pick but still a good Pokémon which player use.
Ive noticed If I go 5-0 I usually go around 1-4 or 0-5 for the following set. More often if I am 4-0 on a current set I will end up going 4-1(not allowing me the 5-0). The opposite is true, if I am 0-4 in a current set I will end up 1-4 at the end of the set. I've literally sat there with my girlfriend showed her my current set and called whether I would win/lose lead and swap based off of my current set
You’re not alone 😢
Just don’t play POGO anymore I am sure there are much better and fun games out there then this sh*t game.
I think like you before I got 23-2 in one day, with 17 winning Strike.
@@jia2001 ai like POGO. It is definitely skill based, but it doesn't mean the game doesn't try to balance the battles
As someone who study’s plays and is quite competitive. There’s just no way I swap my team ten times and each one is built to beat my team. There is no way, not with how many option there are.
in open master league i kept running into lando leads (against my lando) but as soon as i put a kyogre in the lead they all disappeared hmmm
My personal experience is this. I watch great content creators like Zyonik daily and I use pvpoke regularly to team build both meta teams and anti meta teams. So I do count moves and pull off some decisive catches and tough wins from good energy management. However, in circumstances where I’m hovering around the same ELO…When I run a certain team I built, I see a lot of the same counters. And I will usually stick with a decently performing team for 3-4 sets, sometimes more if it’s a team that worked well from the previous days’ sets. Then I switch up the team to account for the most common counters I’m frequently facing that day and losing to more than winning. As soon as I switch up the team to another team that has historically performed well for me to counter those opponents, suddenly I stop seeing those counters to my first team almost entirely. Additionally, I’ll see new counters to my new team that were non-existent for the first team’s sets. It would be different if I were not floating within the same ELO range. But, my logical conclusion is that there has to be an algorithm. Nothing against anyone who disagrees. I’ve just seen that pattern enough times that I can’t conclude otherwise.
I 100% agree with you. For example, if you're leading with Toxicroack and keep running into Gligar leads, the moment you change your team and lead with A-Sandlash, then you won't see any more Gligar leads and start running into Medicham, Machamp, and Talonflame leads.
@@alejandroxan A recent example being I stopped using A-nine since skarmory got the steel wing buff, and upon realizing I hadn’t seen a skarmory in days, tried bringing back an A-nine lead. Immediately met with a skarmory lead.
But that means that sometimes the game purposefully pairs YOU with opponents who are hard countered by your Pokémon… I don’t see this happening in my experience
Jah feels
Guys…I kid you not…I haven’t seen Abomasnow in four entire sets. Decided to mix it up by switching to an old favorite (Jumpluff) lead that I haven’t used probably all this season, immediately met with the Abomasnow lead. I know The mathematical odds even with the recent Abomasnow features doesn’t add up when you factor in the team change with the lack of it’s presence prior to the team change. The algorithm exists in some capacity.
Sometimes skills aren't enough to win when the opponent has something that just hard walls your backline
That’s right, you really can’t win all fights.
But why we discus that?
sometimes, exactly. but not 50% of the time
There are some battles that are impossible to win, but it doesn’t happen all the time. Sometimes you hard wall your opponent as well. Skills make the difference between getting a 4-1 or a 3-2 which is crucial to climb. Also, If you can’t get any positive set maybe your team is not balanced.
@@nguyencuong4520 🤡
@@David110iidk the 4-1’s I pull take timing, catches, overcoming terrible leads and swaps…. But the 0-5 and 1-4 immediately after, my opponents wins with 3 Pokemon still standing or two with a shield. I’ve documented the last two months, lead loss roughly 84%, switch loss 76% and win rate roughly 50%….. that’s too consistent to be random (2 months of data)
The problem is, in my experience, that when I notice a pattern from the opponents and build a team to counter that pattern, suddenly the pattern shifts to counter the one I've built. So the teams I was seeing the opponents use doesn't show up anymore and now it's a different pattern that the old team would work well against. That happens and it's undeniable. I agree that the skillset can overcome some of these situations but you can't ignore that it happens, and to most ppl it is so frustrating that they give up. I give up trying new teams or being creative with team comp because it's always the same, you change the team and magically the opposing teams change to adequate to your strategy.
Yes!! 100% agree with you man
This happens to me as well. To the tune of often seeing Pokemon up against my newly selected team that I have seen NO ONE run in the whole Cup currently available. And those new, weird picks just counter the crap out of my new team.
Niantic does want you to stay pretty close to 50/50 to stay challenged and the best and easiest way to program that IS just a regular ELO based system..... there is NO reason to add tons of code to shift the natural outcomes of ELO by a few percentage points. As a developer, I find any sort of algorithm that takes pokemon into consideration absolutely unfeasible when ELO accomplishes this already.
Having Elo base algo is okay.. But POGO does have a type based algo too..
Yeah but nearly everyone having 50% win ration at every rank is super odd
@@mrslayrWhy? Isn't it reasonable to excpect a 50% winrate when you constantly face people who are at an even skill level?
@budjettivaje8338 sure. But it being 50% at pretty the entire season is odd. Legends players being at 50% even when ranking up initially is crazy
@@mrslayr So you're saying It's reasonable but also odd. Why? What should their winrate be, then?
I think it's time to share my view on this:
It's without a doubt that GO Battle League has an algorithm. That's not to say because I've lost a set and gone "OH NO, I LOST, ALGORITHM!!" I'm saying it on a standpoint that every online game that's existed in history, have matchmaking algorithms to pair with players based around skill level, location, availability etc. Pokemon GO is no different to that.
But what I don't like is the blind three format. The game is that bad into implenting this format, that we have to be forced to approach learning new strategies based around something which is heavily guesswork and almost out of our control, and it shouldn't have to be any harder than it needs to be. Show six, pick three would be WAY better in my opinion. Players would have a much better time in knowing what they're up against, managing team comps and preparing game plans based on what's seen when selecting party members.
Another big problem I have with GO Battle League is there is no unranked mode where people can go into battles, test out new teams and strategies and not get penalised for trial and error. In this case, you have to hope that you can find players to practice with in order to learn the ins and outs of how your team works without the thought of being punished heavily for making mistakes. I think a lot of the frustration comes from when trying to master a team, or specific pokemon you are learning how to use, and the game's training mode hardly does enough to teach you the basics as it is without any sort of outside assistance from other battlers.
There also needs to be a feature, or a more advanced level practice mode in the game which allows players to take their skills to the next level, and teach them how to manage energy, optimise move timing, catching moves, learning matchups - ESPECIALLY bad leads or counter swaps. Maybe then, players will be able to understand the mechanics more in-depth and improve their current skill set to climb.
That's my view on the whole ordeal.
Oh, (not related to Algo talk, but it's in my head) but the overuse of buff/debuff moves is really pissing me off. I hope they work on this next season and have a more varied meta than the same dense 8 or 10 pokemon all the time in GL/UL.
This is the best view I’ve seen on this
I like this on paper, but show 6 heavily benefits people who have better pokemon. I’d rather have a system where you match the select your team of three blind
The reason they don’t do 6 pick 3 is because of queue times. The longer each game is, the less available players and slower queue time making it a bad user experience
"without a doubt" but my only evidence is my own opinion... what you just described is how the elo rating system works, not an algorithm that forces you to remain at a 50% win rate. Many other games have an elo rating system. its fair to not like the blind 3 format but you cant place your mistakes on an imaginary line of code that forces you to lose... by saying this you are also saying that others are being forced to win. it just doesn't make any sense.
this video was the nicest way someone could put "get good" into full sentences
The fact that players have to rely on content creators for advanced pvp skills and not been given some tutorials from the game/niantic directly speaks volumes. I vaguely recall them doing something on basics a long time ago but thats it.
14:19 Don't you think that's a problem??? Why do we STILL not have an unranked mode where we can do whatever we want? I'm not playing because I want to hit legend. I want to have fun!!
Yeah I have been asking Niantic for years to give us this game feature.
Hmm interesting tho
Same I wish we had this
Because that requires more PvP servers, which means Niantic would need to spend more money. We all know how greedy Niantic is, right? Don't expect too much from them.
I think Michael staranaka the director of pokemon go confirmed why there's no unranked pvp mode because of queue times if I remember correctly
There is a matchmaking algorithm and it’s astounding to me that anyone would still try to say there’s not.
That’s true. It’s and people blame is for their loses but never credit it for their wins
Nobody is saying they dont want a matchmaking algorithm. Theyre saying they dont want the algorithm to take their team comp into amount. Just mmr. If im winning too much, send me up against someone with higher mmr until I start losing. What happens instead is you get matched up against hard lead loss/core breakers.
@@Hoffman745 there's literally no evidence that the matchmaking algorithm does that. Niantic have confirmed that it doesn't, so this is why believers in a nefarious algorithm come across as conspiracy theorists. The biggest question to ask yourself is... why? What possible purpose would it serve Niantic to try and force people to a 50% win rate? The Elo system trends towards that by design anyway, so there's no need for them to try and manipulate it further.
@@joontysame reason they make every other team decision in the game and it’s to keep you playing
@@joontythere is a 50% win rate but you can make it higher by having better pokemons. win rates are around 40-60%
The algorithm is 100% real I can’t tell you how many times I’ll use a specific team and get the same 6 to 7 Pokémon I’m going up against and I’ll swap my team to counter it and then all of a sudden that team will get countered by brand new Pokémon that I haven’t gone up against all day
this is my experience too.
You are just unlucky
You played the wrong team. What you describe happens if you copy YT teams to late or in the wrong ELO. If you climb or fall the meta shifts (Opponents with hardcounter to your team Climb to a point where other player Start to hardcounter there teams too… this is called team building)
If you built your own teams you will not have your problems, cause you see your meta, understand where your problem is and try to fix that by changing Pokemon.
Your problem is made from CZcams. Most players nowadays watch content creators and copy teams (everything is fine with that) this leads into less variety and that a team which worked well on Monday didn’t work on Wednesday
So what? People get to legend but you dont. Keep giving excuse dude.
@@charlottesphie7037 I’ve gotten to legend plenty of times but still easily acknowledging there’s an algorithm and not is just showing how dumb people can be. Especially thing that accompany like Niantic wanted to do such a thing 🤣🤣
Simple fix to not encounter legends at say 2200-2500 is that you should only be able to drop 1 rank, or better yet only allow to drop 200 points. This will stop legends from essentially gate keeping at 2200-2700 range.
Why you think that a legendplayer is more gatekeeping as a Expert which only reached 2900elo or a veteran player which hit last 5 seasons legend?
And finally, you don’t know in which league other hit legend. Many reach legend in ML, but in GL they are not as good and only on the 2600-2700 range.
I know a lot which hit every season legend with ML and lvl50 legendary… but if they fight against me in GL and UL they loose many times (and I mostly hit expert and only a few times Legend)
I assure you that if you ever find me in the 2200-2500 ELO range after I’ve already hit legend it’s because I’m using some absolutely absurd/off-the-wall mons that have no business being in gbl. So you’d much rather see me at that ELO than someone who’s doing their best to climb 🤙🏼
I believe you, but not every player has the same skill and roster for every league.
I hit legend in GL and/or UL… but i m really bad in ML … so if I play ML (cause I want dust) I will fall down to 2500 (something like that), and the reason is I don’t know the counts, my roster is extremely limited (I play lvl45 mons) I have not much experience and I do something else at the same time and not being 100% focused on GBL.
I’m with you, I hate that tank down behaviour too. But I can understand that, cause the waiting queue is so bad in high ELO and you have 1 ELO for all leagues (and some bonuses like 4x dust is only up at ML)
As obnoxious as the game can be at times where I feel truly cheated, I tend to agree that the algorithm is simply matching you against players in the same ELO range. I would love to see a simple video going through the types that core together well, you mentioned flying and water being a good example in the video. Knowing these off the top of my head would help a lot with team reading and maybe get me to the next level. Truth is, I’ve always done best in the limited metas where it is easy to memorize move sets, move counts, who wins CMP, typical teams, etc.
@Hubert-rh4hz I have seen sweaty legends at 2200 when I joined the season very late and I have hit legend a few times and felt I really had to try at 2200 like I usually would at 2700+.
If I ever hit legend I just run spice to give others a chance to climb and still get stardust for partaking. What is the point in worrying about wins or elo when you already achieved legend? In my opinion it's being a dick gate keeping preventing others to climb and possibly hitting legend for the first time and this is what drives new PVP players away
I have noticed that whenever I am on a win streak the next set will suddenly have a delay in finding matches and then I will face hard counters and core breakers in all the following matches.
It definitely seems like the 50% win rate theory is a thing.
Always enjoy ur in depth pvp videos man keep it up, I hit ace for the first time in the evo catch cup thx to a lil guidance from ur videos ❤
Overcoming the algorithm (hard counters) doesn't dispute the algorithm's existence
"Hard counters" is not an algorithm.
What is a hardcounter for you? At first you have to define that… at the end there are not so many „hardcounter“ in this game.
Would you say a.charizard is hardcountered by Lanturn? For me it’s not, cause with a bit energy lead you can overcome(or force the Lanturn to use energy), you can built a team around a.charizard where energy on Lanturn is not so useful etc.
Anyway there is no algo which hardcounters you. But every A BB team has a few nemesis… and if your opponent read you right you will loose.
@@Hubert-rh4hz Tbf, you can't possibly spin Lanturn as anything other than a hard counter to Charizard.
Hmm how is it possible that my team is built around a s.Charizard which lure out every Lanturn 1. win swap from time to time,, shield advantage and all that from 2300-3000ELO? Hardcounter to s.charizard is Wallface or Carbink, but not Lanturn.
I tell you why it’s not a hardcounter.
1. every Lanturn gets greedy for farmdown… 1 fastmove to late swap in you have to shield your Lanturn or use your energy (I did this this season 100times +.
2. I want that Lanturn up against my s .charizard, that’s how ABB works… lure out Pokémon(get shield advantage) farmdown with A(absorb energy) sweep with the other B.
So many „hardcounter“ match ups changes with shieldadvantage, energy lead into neutral or good match ups for you. Even debuffs changes bad match ups into good ones… this could not happen if we talk about a real hardcounter.
@@Hubert-rh4hz Zero chance of winning swap.
Z, I hear you and I think you're right. And I recognize that I miss a lot of skills, mainly keeping count of fast moves and the charged fast move timing, but man it is so frustrating when all of the sudden you begin to be hard countered all the time.
I think there are two types of players: casual and serious. Having a ranked league and a casuals league would be very beneficial rather than lumping everyone in. I personally like to play casually and chill and when I get to around 2400 it gets more serious and therefore less fun for how I want to play.
I get to legend rank every season and there's definitely an algorithm. It works against you and for you, it's not just against you. Where you see it typically is when you switch up your team you will immediately get hard countered for the first few battles. Example: I have over 5000 battle in GBL ML and have never seen Empoleon on any team. I decided to change my lead to Togekiss and immediately faced 3 Empoleons in a row. Never seen them again outside those 3 battles. It happens time and time again this is just the most extreme example I have that is 99.9% undeniable proof imo. Also happens when you have a really good win rate to start the season or just go on a 5-0 or 4-1 set even. I got hard countered every game of every set for 25 consecutive sets (so 5 days) and dropped from 2800 ELO to 2200's. Game will try to get you closer to 50% no matter what you do. You can be the best in the world and not have over 60% win rate in GBL.
I’m one positive set away from veteran I’m at 2484.. I was cooking in the little cup and last 2 sets got absolutely walled in my matchups! There was honestly nothing I could do to overcome it. Hopefully I can reach it tomorrow!
May the Algo be in your favor
Happens every time above 2400, then you get hard walled back to 2250 and it starts again.
@@edwinpeters8761yep, that’s funny cause it’s happened to me the last 2-3 times I’ve reached this ELO. So I expect nothing but hard counters tomorrow 🤣
If this happens every time at 2500 late season, how is it possible that player hits ~3500? It’s a combination out of your personal skill and how well your team can deal with different teams(many player copy teams, play them to late or in the wrong way)
If you play a cup like catch cup(where you don’t know the meta cause many player don’t have the best one catched/built the last 2 month) it is higher RNG and mostly a different meta (based around event Pokémon out of the last 11weeks)
But before that maybe you were matched up against someone else who needed a "wall". It's going to even out *if* that algorithm works that way. (I don't think it does)
The algorithm is real, I stopped worrying about getting more than 50% and now give up a set of 5 matches in order to win 4 in a row the next set and get the rare candies
I used to think there was an algorithm designed to counter you. Then I realized I was just bad.
You're probably worse now because I got better when I acknowledged there's an algorithm. Allows me to predict moves
Yeah this is pretty much it, if you talk to the highest skill battlers in the world most of them will tend to agree that there is no algorithm which pairs you based on the pokemon on your team. It's the nature of blind 6 that about half of your leads will be good, half will be bad.
Theres some sort of system in place just like how in raid battles, it auto picks your team depending on the raid boss moveset
I used to think oh well they want everyone to stay around 50% win rate...then i went 4-1 4-1 with the exact same team, and then the next 3 sets, 0-5, 1-4, 1-4. So next day, same team, 1-4 first set. So i changed my team and went 1-4 again. Went back to original team and went 2-3. Changed the order of the team since I was seeing if i could get a different lead I could win, immediately got hard counters again. It is super incredibly frustrating.
I started at around 2300 this season, climbed to legend, tanked on purpose to 2100 an then climbed back to reach 3500. There´s not such thing as an algorithm forcing you to find your hardcounters everytime. As Zyonik explained in the video there are many ways to avoid insta losing against a bad lead or team comp in general, there may be cases where it´s impossible, but around 80% of the time games have win conditions. Just learn and play better.
Or try not to purposely tank to avoid hard counters.
@@acecoop You can get hardcountered in every ELO range, I don't get your point.
It's pretty much guaranteed that it does exist. I'm not buying that it's just random chance that tons of people get hard countered in multiple matches, and once they change the team, they then get hard countered as well.
But there's more. I know atleast one player, who doesn't even know type effectiveness, that has a win streak record of 20 wins. This is quite above average, even for a good player, so I never understood how he got it. But recently, I watched a Mystic7 video, where he did some rank 10 battles, and who would've thought, he gets in 4 out of 5 battles, players with throw away teams (low CP pokemon) and the 5th battler had underpowered pokemon for that league (Ultra). Then I realised that's probably how that player I know, has that 20 win streak, they get paired with those kinds of teams constantly.
Before people say "that's because he was rank 10 a long time after the season started". I have accounts that were at the time somewhere between rank 7 and 12, and was still facing proper teams, regardless of league. Heck, in rank 10, I was finding lvl 50 legendaries in ML, including Zygarde, Solgaleo, Shadow Mewtwo and more.
There definitely is an algorithm but I do believe it can be overcome. It’s so frustrating though because I still haven’t even hit veteran and I’ve been grinding nearly 3 years. The most frustrating thing is just the grind it takes to get the relevant mons for all leagues not to mention the pay wall that is legendary raids. Great, Ultra, and Master should always be options to play and just add cups periodically to the list. I hate that the last 2 cycles of this season have been absolutely trash metas. Completely ruined my climb, I was 25 off Vet and now I’m back down to 2230. Hate that I should have just quit playing because I love doing my sets daily.
But it does exists
Fyi, if you need to rank up, battle in the catch cup. Also the biggest difference is practicing optimal move timing, it makes a ton of difference
having a 50% winrate algorithm is standard for many pvp games, whats so strange about pogo having it?
Yup Pogo would be the exception in the world of games
Games do not have a forced 50% win ratio. I think you are just bad at those games
@@mrslayr try googling a little , if you know how to
At this point, GBL is more luck based than skill based I feel. And ofcourse there is something fishy going on when you build a team after seeing more of one Pokemon, anf suddenly that Pokemon completely disappears.
6:56 yep i was too stuck at ace till few days ago I've hit vet finally tbh i can hit expert
you can totally do it, just keep working on areas in the game you know that you struggle with. If you don't know, record some battles then watch them after and think about where you could have improved!
Oh, 7! Was always lazy to count Bastiodon's fast moves 😁 thanks. I agree with you. I saw enough videos of spice battles 😁 to tell that you can break any algorithm by planning and skills.
There's obviously an algorithm in any PVP, but thinking that niantic is perfectly matching you against counters to your team is ridiculous. I used to always peak at rank 20/Ace until a few seasons ago when I really started focusing on improving my skills and learning more advanced mechanics.
Now I hit at least expert every season and have hit legend twice, I still get hard countered but when you understand more advanced mechanics you can overcome a lot of bad matches.
Yup. Congrats on your climb!
This has literally been my same exact experience.
Being able to deal with the algorithm does not disprove the algorithm.
@@osaka_phong👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽 exactly. Why is this a hard concept for people to grasp? The algorithm is real, AND it's possible for anyone to hit legend. Both statements are true.
@@osaka_phong that's true. Knowledge of psychology and statistics does though ;)
There’s definitely no algorithm, the fact I never saw one umbreon for two season, and saw four in the one set I played double ghost is COMPLETELY RANDOM, the fact that I can accurately call out my abb hard counte (that will be in the back 80% of the time) is again completely random! “RANDOM: triple hard counters 20/25 matches, 6 days a week, keeping my win % around 50%, for the last six seasons”
My biggest issue is that I’ll use a team that sees a consistent hard counter lead for two or three sets (not every game, but consistent). Getting sick of that match up I’ll make a change and then you’ll see Pokémon you didn’t encounter much at all before and most definitely no longer the lead you just changed your team to help with. There’s definitely something in that. I have no problem not having easy match ups, obviously in a blind format you will be hard countered at times, but when you make changes based on what you’ve been seeing consistently and then you never see it again and something completely different it makes no sense. I didn’t know there was even a debate about the ELO matching? I’m pretty sure it’s obvious you’re matched with people around your ELO rather than their rank. I have no problem facing a legend at 2600 ELO though.
As a newbie this was SO useful! Is there any website where I can find the number of fast attacks that are needed to charge charged attacks or you learn it on the field? Thanks a lot
You're the most down-2-earth content creator! 😎👍 u always have great videos and commentary!
To me, what most people don't realise is that one can almost never ever go too far ahead of the 50% win rate as long as it is a blind,, a team of 3 format. But you can drop as low as 20 or 10% win rate if you are just bad at the game. If there is any algo, it is the algorithm of blind, team of 3 format itself.
Otherwise I need some convincing to believe that a company that regularly forgets to turn on features, release pokemon by errors and even forget their own event schedule can be so sophisticated with a live algo that influence every player's elo rank.
Sophisticated? All it takes is to write a piece of code. It isn’t that hard. Also, you don’t have to modify it that often. They must have did it once and left it there.
Most of those "forget" to turn on feature are on purpose but they change or apologize when people notice. The algorithm exists in every aspect of the game. Shiny rate, catch rate, probability of rare spawn on incense is influenced by how active you are and how good you are to balance the difficulty and orangee. Most games do that nowadays, even Resident Evil 4 does it.
I don't believe in algorithm but this stupid notion that Niantic is incompetent needs to retire. Every online gaming company hires top data scientists and that is how they manage to earn 500 mil or above year after year. The job of these data scientists is to literally find out how Niantic can earn more money from each player belonging to different play style group. So it's natural they rig some things in order to convert them to a paying customer or in many cases earn a higher revenue from already paying customer. There are always some behind the scene rigs that these companies do.
I’ve heard that Niantic outsources GBL, I want to say to a Japanese company? I don’t know how true that is but I say it to note that it’s possible Niantic’s incompetence wouldn’t even factor in if it’s outsourced. Also, Niantic is perfectly competent when they need/want to be.
Whether it’s an “algorithm” or not, it’s pretty damn weird in 3 sets (15 battles) every opponent I faced had a bronzor. As soon as I powered up and doubled moved a cacturne with sucker punch I didn’t see a single bronzor in the remaining 2 sets. Maybe just an odd coincidence 🤷♂️
I agree with PokèAK that the algorithm does exist.
Maybe PokeAK could hit legend if he focused on improving his gameplay rather than believing some conspiracy is out to get him
@@flame838 He has hit legend. Many times in fact. You can beat the algorithm, but that doesn't make it fun. He's just tired of fighting the algorithm.
@@flame838lol you can’t beat 50% algo….
@@flame838not all of us play for legend
@@mikebing1230I hit legend with 60% winrate this season. Seems like a you peoblem
Your main point seems to be that the algorithm doesn't exist because you can use skills to overcome bad leads and hard counter swaps. Overcoming hard counters doesn't disprove the algorithm. I honestly don't understand why people think it's so controversial to believe that the way you are paired in go battle league isn't 100% random. Yes, you get paired with other trainers around your elo, but also get paired based on the types of pokemon/moves you are running.
Because there is no reason for it to be teambased matchmaking, it accomplishes nothing for Niantic.
Also sniping people is a thing, no matter what team you bring it always worked which pretty much disproves teambased matchmaking.
@@bigml_official it makes sense if they want people to stay engaged in the game. The only reason I still play is because of pvp. And I'm sure there are many others like me. The "algorithm" in theory doesn't always screw you over. It allegedly places you in positive matches as well.
@@texasfloodthe9370 do you realize that a skill based matchmaking which pairs based on rating does exactly the same?
There is no need for it to consider the team.
@bigml_official sure it does. But I also notice the more I win the more I end up getting hard countered. Has nothing to do with skill. Again, I'm not complaining, or saying that niantic is deliberately screwing me over. And I'm not saying definitively that there is an algorithm. All I'm saying is it's not that farfetched and it doesn't seem conspiratorial to think it exists.
@bigml_official call of duty already does this with skill based matchmaking and they tried to keep it secret as long as they could so that theory is dead. They obviously have their reasons
One important point to notice is: the ELO system is designed to "try" and pair you against players with a similar skill level (if you play against lesser opponents, you climb easily until you aren't anymore. If it's against stronger ones, you lose a lot). Once you are at this range, on the long go, you will reach ~50% win rate, however many wins or losses you had before that
I reached veteran last season, but I believe 100% in an algorithm. I would do tests to prove it. I would lead Alolan marowak and quagsire appears, I safe swap lickitung and scrafty. I decide to go full Meta and get hard countered every which way. I choose anti meta and get hard countered by uncommon mons.
Do ivs matter Breakpoints and bulk points because I noticed even though I had good matchups in the evolution cup I seemed to be losing a lot of close games
Hit Veteran for the second season in a row after previously peaking at 2100. This video gave me the motivation to do it. Thanks Zyonik!
Thank you for addressing this in a civil manner. I do believe a matchmaking algorithm exists and that players are not matched up solely based on their elo or win rates
There is absolutely an algorithm and anyone who denies it are willfully ignorant
I’ve lost 15 leads in a row! That is not random. Doesn’t matter if I alter my lead, the algorithm adjusts. Many 10-in-a-row lead losses. This always happens after a few winning streaks. Same great team, but unlevel field.
Good stuff zyonik enjoying the content 🙌
Solid video Zyonik. Thanks for making it. What is your take on bots? Do they exist, and if so, at what ELO do you think they disappear, cuz I don’t think they exist in the Expert and Legend ranks.
Apparently not long ago there was bot that reveal what pokemon you use to hard counter you it's been talked about from youtubers like pokeAK & zyonik I don't know if niantic fixed that 🤷♂️
Not talking about bots that allow cheating, but rather AI trainer bots that run teams.
There are bots in go battle league up to expert level. They cant have them in the high ranks of legend or they'd be exposed because very few battles should be available in those high brackets.
how do these bots work exactly?@@user-xf2su1rz6j
Thanks Zyonik, fellow Dad that Pvp's!
My two cents here. I've hit Veteran every season, Expert (twice) and Legend (once). Legend rank happened during Summer Cup. Love that Bea pose. I'm not an elite battler by any means, but I've done thousands of battles and tracked the data with a good enough sample size to see some trends. What I've seen is that you get matched by ELO and on some general level, typing. I'd start to see insanely different team comps and/or movesets once I'd switched up teams. I'd only see those opponent team comps when running specific teams so there was a correlation. Try running an all fairy team for a few sets and will you start to see some opponent team comps you will never see again, I guarantee you! lol Especially at the higher ELO. In the end, you still need skills, as noted in the video, but there are some typing matchups going on. To what extent they "keep you near 50%" is hard to say or qualify, but there is something happening.
sometimes i wish that we could choose 6 pokemon, then use a draft system like what they do in official tournaments. so we have more variety and coverage and maybe even more spice instead of just running straight to battles
Its funny how people still think, you can win every lead or hard conter every switch every time. If you hit Legend every season, its because of skills not algo luck or whatever.
Also if there are almost only teams - Team A which hard conter Team B and Team C hard Conter Team A its normal you win 50% lead and lose 50% leads
Algorithm definitely does exist but if you put in the time to be a better trainer you can over come bad leads - this is coming from an Ace / Veteran trainer who loses great leads to better skilled players. It’s frustrating at times but is what it is…
If you have a flying type you encounter stunkfish
If you hv charm, you encounter poison
Naintic should know what you are using since everything is code by them.
Mr. Zyonik, I have a question - How do you keep track of one turn fast moves? I can count 2,3,4,5 no problems at all. I know how much energy the charge moves cost, I know how much energy the fast moves generate, but I cannot for the life of me get the one turn count down. It always seems like I'm 1-2 off, sometimes under sometimes over. Any suggestions? Do you think it could just be my device? Am I going blind or insane? Why did the bologna take Monday to cake on the bench fried noodle fire? (😂 Seriously though... How do you do it!?)
You can do so easily by keeping track of your own fast moves. Everytime you use a 2-turn fast move, the opponent has used exactly 2 of their 1-turn fast moves. Everytime you use a 3-turn fast move, your opponent has used exactly 3 of their 1-turn fast moves etc. If you're using 1-turn fast moves yourself, concentrate on the energy bar of your charge moves and count the increments that happen after every turn. It might be tricky at first, but you get used to it.
Is it too hard to believe that if you’re doing well, you’ll face against a team with a higher win rate and if you’re losing a bunch, you’ll face against a team with a lower win rate? Neutral teams/leads to exist. The thinking of “always losing” isn’t correct.
I believe there is a balancing factor to it. Thanks to you and Callum I got to Vereran for the first time this season. I enjoy the PVP a lot and it can be frustrating when you are dominating with a team one day, then suddenly you get dominated.
The algorithm exists, i mean every pvp game has some form of it. But you can still beat it, otherwise nobody would climb. You wouldn't see people proud of their 20 win streak. I do have to admit, I'd still rather have what the main games had where you have six Pokémon and choose three while you can see your opponents six Pokémon. Be a lot more interesting in terms of teambuilding, and a lot more fair.
See my luck ZyoniK, as per your comments from 6:30 , I was almost expert this season around 2740 range, but I did not hit it because of some negative sets that brought me to veteran range again. So I got stuck to Veteran because I gave up climbing when I see this "algorithm" every day...
I finally hit Veteran the other day! Thank you Zyonik for all your videos, great insights, and advice. They truly helped me improve and feel confident in making educated, skillful plays. Gonna aim to make another climb before the end of the season. Good luck, everyone!
Zyoniks skills is undeniable but i believe there is an algorithm.
Zyonik is right about knowing your knowledge tho. Truly a good battler.
I've stuck in ace because i still use sunflora crawduant and solrock
Well stop doing that lol
when it comes to the subject of the algorithm I do personally think its somewhere in the middle just because I have been coding for years and know that no game can run without some sort of algorithm. And from personal experience yes I have been hard countered and I also have hard countered my opponents so its not a oh the algorithm is purposely hard countering me specifically (even though it can feel like that somedays) but I do think u get paired with more people within you elo / skill rank.
That’s the consensus of the sane PoGo community. Obviously there is a matchmaking algorithm. If there wasn’t, you could be at 2100 Elo and go up against a 3400 Elo or 800 Elo player. It’s a benign requirement for the system to function.
The algorithm that some believe in uses your team composition to match you against hard counter teams to artificially force your winrate to 50%.
sorry to say this but if you believe that niantic wants you to lose you might have skill issues. you win some you lose some but if you keep playing you get better its a learningcurve but some people dont understand that. just look in the mirror for a second and think what went wrong in your battles
I remember encountering a “bug” if that’s what you want to call it where when I entered a Go Battle match all of my Pokémon were none that I ever used. However, the other player’s Pokémon literally hard countered every one of them. Once the match ended those Pokémon disappeared and my regular team was listed on the setup screen. That showed me there definitely is an algorithm of sort that intentionally puts you at a disadvantage at times. I did capture a video of it before sitting in the hard drive somewhere.
“You've got to know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away
And know when to run” - Kenny Rogers
As per myself being newer to pokemon go and go battle league as a whole. I do take notice that people often take to the meta easily, which is fine, if it is what they want to do go ahead but, I have now made it my goal to use unusual and or uncommonly used pokemon with specific movesets to meta counter and I have had had good luck with it and maybe went from a 20% winrate 2 weeks ago to a 60% winrate roughly maybe higher if I'm lucky or quick enough.
Obviously I still have a lot of learning to do but, I want to change things up and give people variety to see other than the common meta and still make it effective
I suspect that implementing the 'algorithm' is extremely inefficient on a queuing system like GBL ( in order to divert battles to hard counter teams for all players all the time). The waiting time for battles would be way higher at ACE ELO.
Unless by algorithm people are also thinking that the opponents are actually bots. However a quick browse on campfire might dispel that theory :-)
However, like explained in this video, adopting a specific team composition and related strategy will reduce the perceivedly-purposeful RPS hard countering in GBL.
The thing about bots is that they definitely do exist in GBL. People farm bots all the time like for example all the pokemaps that are still in existence… there is a guy in my city that runs a pogo map service and he says he literally has thousands of bots he uses to get the data for his map service. He says there are bots for everything from finding Pokemon to battling gyms to spinning Pokestops and even in PVP.
@@charizard9633 you're right. I saw unofficial maps with location of spawns even in the middle of the night. I didn't expect that these were used for battling in GBL. Are you saying that users are deploying bots for PvP or is it Nianticn to systematically bias GBL?
This has been discussed multiple times before, and no matter how many times I try to explain my view, there will always be someone who doesn't believe it, and vice-versa. It's not entirely a solution, but if there was an unranked matchmaking system I can guarantee you that no one would complain about an algorithm based on matching pokemon to one another based on typing, moves etc.
from my personal experience, changing my team composition makes certain pokemons from opponents start appearing more and other not at all. the distribution of the pokemons from the opponents changes when i switch teams. It might be because niantic is trying to prevent some sort of team composition exploits? like somehow finding the types of pokemons i see the most and create an anti meta team and auto win matches? another reason is to avoid un eventful matches where the pokemons from both sides don't have any effective moveset against each other. This can be by ensuring that the matches have pokemons that can apply super effective damage to each other.
It would be nice if they got away from the blind threes format. Or at least let us match our opponent then select from our premade teams
Call it superstition but I always change my team after a battle and apparently I get better matches that way. Also, when you roll TMs, it is like if you do them in a row the moves stay in a loop getting, idk, astonish and tackle back and forth instead of something better like shadow claw (just an example).
There are a lot of sketchy things in Pokemon Go tbh
This needed to be said, so thank you. It’s the same with any competitive online game I’ve played. The vast majority of people stuck at a certain rank blame everything but themselves as the reason they cannot climb. Everyone runs into teams that wall you and no amount of skill overcomes that. That’s a small minority of matches out of a full day of sets. Appreciate the positivity as always, Zyonik!
Why do we not say there is algorithm and all we need is to use skills to bear the game
lol that’s the algorithm. Walling you. 😂
The matchmaking is based on ELO and nothing else. Believing otherwise is a mix of Gambler's Fallacy and confirmation bias. It is absolutely a shared delusion of both the PoKEMON GO PvP community, or at least perpetual Ace-rank trainers, and every single other gaming PvP community where people are stuck in one league or rank, while believing they belong in a higher rank, and blame the system by assigning it evil intentions and conjuring up entirely made-up matchmaking processes that makes no sense and are needlessly complicated, based on absolutely nothing other than confirmation bias and Gambler's Fallacy. It is nice to see a content creator that doesn't baby the community by playing into this shared delusions, which it would be really easy to do compared to explaining why some of us are probably, actually stuck in Ace-rank. For me, I for sure need to improve on my fast-move counting, both so that I can more consistently catch charge moves on switching, and also to avoid giving away free fast move turns when throwing my own charge moves. It may be a little harsh, but anyone playing any kind of competitive game where RNG and matchmaking is part of it, needs to try and be aware of and rid themselves of confirmation bias and Gamer's Fallacy, because it prevents you from improving and it doesn't matter whether the game is PGO PvP or Texas Holdem - you're not going to improve if you blame your mistakes on an external system, much less a made-up one, because you can't learn anything from mistakes that you don't own.
I *know* for a fact I need to work on my skills. I appreciate watching and learning from @zyonik and other creators. And it actually helps to hear that even Zyonic is not even 60%. You're going to lose matches, no matter how good you are. With 18 types, you can't cover everything.
Completely agree that once you get to expert and above it matches you with same level players and pokemon as there is less of them but lower than expert it matches you to keep you at a 50 win rate. I have tested this when im between 2000 to 2600 I change teams and immediately get counter with a different set of pokemon that had not been there before. Also once at 2650 to 2945 have gotten past this level no matter what team I choose I come across the same teams no matter what another indication of this is the wait time get longer as you go up. I then only normally drop a lot as I keep playing on the last weeks and there's some cups that I don't have good mon for or master league
It's the same as the one about new or returning players having more shiny luck, there is evidence of some truth to it but you could argue the other way too. I usually start off with a team and do well, then suddenly I'll start getting hard countered. I end up switching my team around a few times before finding a new combination that works for the remaining sets I have. Also as you win, you climb elo and play harder players.
The algorithm will absolutely keep you at 50% if you live and die by matchups. I get that to beat my high of around 2350 I would need to learn all of the pointers in this video. Move counting being the biggest. Energy management likely next. I also accept that I will never have the time for that in my life.
But there is a workaround for the team composition and strategy points. Zyonik’s videos. Thank you 🙏.
Niantic should use the same rules as in official tournaments. It would be amazing if you could preview each other's team of 6 and pick based on the info
I have almost stopped playing this season because of this. I kept trying to go more than Expert and every time I climbed, the next day I'd get hard countered by teams I didn't face before. I just lost the motivation, and honestly it's not like you have to be a genius to be able to play well. So it's not only about the skills.
I haven't gotten past Ace since, season 5.
I have almost every pokemon for GBL & Ultra.
Too many things/variables to remember when playing.
I been doing good in the catch great league using Salazzle Lickytung and Gardevoir with only Triple axel. Got to mid 2100 last night. Up about 250. Seeing a lot of Dragon leads and Apes both prime and Annihil variants 😂
When we do raids they automatically pick our teams based on the moves and when we battle a go rocket it automatically picks our teams based on moves so I wonder why it would be any different when we fight in GBL? Nobody’s ever answered this question of mine
There’s an algorithm. If it’s truly a random match ups. We will definitely see all kinds of Pokémon besides all current metas. I’ll run Bastidon lead. Will let me have good 10-3 run. After that. Nothing but Medicham lead or fighter all of a sudden. Lol😂
It’s strange the Pokémon I see when I’m running specific pokemon, you mentioned the gfisk against your core but it seems like the one Pokémon I don’t wanna see I see a ton, then I switch teams and never see it again
The algorithm definitely exists.. BUT don’t let that stop you from playing. There’s a reason legend players always attain it every season. It’s becomes a skill issue at that point. But don’t let the algorithm discourage you from setting pvp goals. Best of luck trainers 👍🏽
Exactly it is what it is, it’s no different from lag it’s just apart of the game overcome it or get over it
1) The algorithm absolutely exists. I saw 0 Obstagoons in my last 10 sets. I decided to throw in a Cresselia lead, and boom first match there was an Obstagoon lead.
2) Telling people to do the best with what they’re given in this circumstance is like telling a poor person to get a job.
I don’t want to steamroll people, I just want a truly random match making system.
When I finally hit legend for the first time this season, I stopped believing it was as bad as I used to
The algorithm exists, and you can still hit legend while it is existing.
If you jump into a raid, the pokemon on your team are randomly picked by typing and by MOVESETS. If the raid mon is Ho-Oh, you most likely will get Tyranitar with Smackdown automatically on your team. This same principle is applied during PvP.
Those who do not believe this matchmaking concept exists are in denial.
Thankyou
Zyonik I ❤you, “you have to overcome bad situations” 🗣️🤞🏾 real af
I think a major problem here is a lot of people don't understand what the word algorithm means.
I can see where people think there is an algorithm . I remember seasons back when Gyrados Double Charm was a thing. I would see that team at least once or twice a set. For like two days straight. I got tired of it so I changed my team to directly hard counter it. It had Magnezone lead. After that, I NEVER saw it for the remaining week…I am honeslty split, but leaning towards that there isn’t an algorithm
I believe the Algorithm exist, sometimes it throws the same pokemon over and over and over, across multiple sets and elos, then you change your team and suddenly you don't see those pokemon anymore, but I agree that you need to learn to deal with different situations it throws at you
THERE have been so many times where all 5 of my sets were full of counters. Even when I ran "joke" teams that had no synergy I will never forget ( I ran a Samurott, Bastiodon, and drifblim) and instantly my first 3 matches were against a lanturn lead twice and an ampharos lead on the 3rd match. EVERY time I switch out they whether it be bastiodon they switch to a machamp or medicham it never fails. Then once I go the whole day only winning 2 matches the next day the algorithm decides to give me the most braindead players who have pokemon not even close to 1500 or 2500 and running terrible teams. Even on games where I tryhard and use meta pokemon or spice picks the algorithm at the end of the day will decide if you have an easy time or not. Currently in the little cup it doesn't matter what I do, If I have my Wigglytuff on the lead 9 times out of 10 I start off against a bronzor and it's game over nothing I can do. If I switch to a counter they instantly switch to a counter. If I save my wigglytuff for my backline and have a bronzor counter on in the front the bronzor will be pushed to the back. Sometimes It's hard to tell if Im improving AT ALL in this game or just the algorithm giving me easy pickings to boost my confidence.
Whether or not algorithm exists, there are still people constantly hit legendary in each season. I certainly do feel the "algorithm" preventing me from climbing up the ladder, but you do need to hit some skill sets to reach certain level as well.
I got to 2731 this season. My all time high elo. After that, I ran into straight hard counter lead, swap and closers for 3-4 battles out of each set for the next 4 sets. I dropped almost 200 elo before bouncing back above veteran. I know the counts, I know fast move optimization, I just personally feel like the game screws me over after getting into veteran rank. If I had to name something that I need to improve on, it would be team reading.
Is confirm you will face hard counter, what I need to learn is what team to use when I reach a certain rank. Normally, after I win 4 round, the next game. I will lose 4 round. I know we need to learn to overcome, is what team to use.
Enjoy the game, have fun make friends, win or lose it doesn't make you any better unless you are a CZcamsr not even your mom is gonna know if you hit legend or not, chill, take it sport
algorithm is there for me a most of time but i build teams where i have very bad matchup for a pokemon but double neutral or super effective in the back i get some energy and swap when you use glassy but strong in the front and very bulky and neutral to everything in the back you are fine it only comes to energy management there sometimes i get hard counter but when i loose a full set its most of the time my fault
I don’t think the argument is “we shouldn’t have to overcome hardship” or “there’s no skill in the game (like team reading or counting or switch catching)” the argument is “is there an algorithm that purposely pairs you up against hard counters after some condition is met”
IMO: yes. There is definitely something going on that’s not being told to us. Where it gets frustrating is when bots come in and shoot you down talking about “skill”. That deflects from the question being asked and it’s pointless/reductive. There is an abundance of data to test and see. Everyone is having the same experience where they will switch teams after being hard countered constantly and then suddenly that new team is getting hard countered. That’s no coincidence
Everyone who says there is not an algorithm for matchmatking has absolutely no clue how modern day games work.
Yes the game has a matchmaking system no one is saying it doesn’t but it’s not the one most people complain about. It’s based off of your MMR and not the team you choose
Good example...... Thanks..... Regards from Panama LATAM
I used to like ultra and master meta, but nowadays I only like and play master league. For me it’s the best league cause it’s the closest meta, so there are not big changes that often and the status quo tends to be maintained, that way I know how to play, what matches I can win and what can I do to win in a losing position, I always get to veteran in that league and then stop playing to win, I only farm stardust from that point onwards haha. I reached that rank with my dialga Kyogre and Lugia team for the last 5-6 seasons, this last season meta changed a lot, so this season I got there with Landorus dialga and dragonite, but i just changed dragonite for origin Palkia and i wanna test it.