Billy Wagner Belongs in the Hall of Fame
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- čas přidán 1. 12. 2023
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In his 9th year on the ballot, Billy Wagner is long overdue for the Hall of Fame. A seven-time All-Star, member of the 400-save club, and arguably the most efficient strikeout pitcher in the history of the sport, it's time for the third-best closer in MLB history to take his rightful spot in Cooperstown.
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#mlb #mets #astros - Sport
Wagner should’ve been in a long time ago. It’s a shame it’s taken him until year 9, and he’s still not in.
Crazy part is that idk how he isn't in, Mariana Rivera was the first unanimous induction in MLB hall of fame history so closers aren't stigmatized that much
@@RealCGHbecause Rivera has rings and was in the national spotlight
Tbh silly Billy Wagner should be in the hall. But I don’t think that silly Billy Wagner will ever get in
How can a closer be great if it doesnt reflect into a ring
One thing that stands out to me is how highly Joe Nathan ranks in many of these stats.
Nathan had a great career but was not good in the playoffs.
Say what you want about him being in Cooperstown, but I at least would argue that he should’ve gotten 5% of the vote.
Absolute travesty that he didn’t even get the 5% vote to have a second year on the ballot. I may be biased as a Twins fan, but he absolutely belongs in the Hall as one of the best closers of all time
@@timberwolvesguy6392 I’m from Texas and lived in Minnesota, so two of my top three favorite teams are the Rangers and Twins, so I’m definitely biased towards Joe Nathan, but him getting so little consideration from the Hall of Fame, despite how great many of his stats are, is a travesty, like you said.
@@timberwolvesguy6392The thing about Joe Nathan and relievers like him is that the standards of sabermetric stats like win probability added and ERA+ for relievers at their peak are not well understood by most voters.
Most of them seem to just go off of total saves, and possibly the peak years of that stat.
In Joe Nathan’s case specifically, voters would’ve seen a pitcher who didn’t get to 400 saves (though he does rank 10th I think), and was not good in the playoffs, so I’m not surprised he was ignored.
In my opinion, looking only at saves is flawed because while at the end of the day, a pitcher needs to finish the game with the lead to get the save, a pitcher could theoretically pitch his way into trouble, and give up a run or two, and get a save that counts the same as a pitcher who got three outs without allowing a baserunner.
In my opinion, there should be a stat for what I call “quality relief appearances”, which I define as the following:
1. The pitcher has to have faced three batters after entering the game in relief.
2. The pitcher cannot allow any runs, earned or unearned.
And 3. The pitcher cannot allow more than one baserunner.
The raw total of this could allow us to account for all appearances of three batters or more regardless of whether it’s a save situation or not (I would suggest a split for save situations and non save situations).
Joe Nathan for the record, has 712 appearances of three or more batters faced in his career, and by my definition, 463 were quality relief appearances, or 65%.
That percentage is matched only by Kenley Jansen among pitchers who have as many appearances of three batters or more in relief, though several have more volume, and percentages of this stat are increasing from generation to generation as multi inning relief appearances become less common.
Out of curiosity, what do you think of that potential stat? I think there should be a relief equivalent of quality starts personally, and that’s what I’d suggest.
As a lifetime ASTROS, Colt .45's fan I had the distinct pleasure of watching this incredible man save games and blow away rival batters with seeming ease. All of his numbers are better than many in the Hall. The Hall of Fame has become a Hall of Very Good recently. The facts and stats of so many in recent years don't stack up to greatness.
I love learning about some of these older great players that are hiding in plain sight. Thank you for the video, Billy Wagner earned a new fan.
I'm 25 and you saying its an older player makes me think how long I've been a fan of the sport now when I watched him on live TV haha
Stros fan here who grew up rooting for Billy in the 90s. Loved watching Billy throw 100mph fastballs past hitters back when that was still awe inspiring
Billy should be in that 99 year was wild
Closers that always come to mind.
You guessed it.
Mariano, hoffman and wagner
Billy Wagner's candidacy will play a pivotal role for the next generation of closers, like K-Rod, Kimbrel, and Chapman. Hopefully we see him go in so the next closers will get looked at seriously.
K Rod should be in no questions
Wagner yes- also- Joe Nathan. That guy’s numbers are INSANE. And yes, Chapman, Kimbrel and Jansen down the road. Also, just puttin this out there- Papelbon’s numbers are incredible.
Papelbon's playoff stats are far greater than Wagner's and his regular season numbers are very close. But Pap and Chapman are both so unlikeable it's tough to see either get a fair amount of HOF votes.
@@brientaylorcohenShould Papelbon or Joe Nathan have gotten 5% of the vote in your opinion?
@@fortynights1513 if you’re asking me who I think is better, I’m gonna say Nathan by a hair. But both guys have insane 7yearWAR stat averages. Among the best in the history of baseball for relievers for both guys.
@@PitBullSamiTutHere’s the thing:
Nathan has an ERA+ on baseball reference of 151 vs 177 for Papelbon, but Nathan also pitched roughly 200 more innings.
Papelbon however had an ERA of 1.00 in 27 playoff innings and Nathan’s playoff ERA is 8.10 in 10 playoff innings.
Both players are among the best ERA’s for their respective career volumes, but Papelbon had a better playoff career.
I could see the argument for either one being better than the other, but either way both guys arguably played well enough to deserve to break 5% of the vote, and neither one did.
If they came up last year, they may have had more of a shot.
@@fortynights1513 for sure Nathan gave up the huge dinger to Arod in the playoffs and definitely wasn’t a good playoff pitcher. But sheesh, we’re splitting hairs here. They’re both great and both HOF-worthy. Papelbon is highly underrated and when you put those 2 guys numbers up against the greatest relievers of all time, they’re both right there.
Wagner has been circled on my mock HoF ballot for years. He was a damn good Brave!
Damn right. My favorite pitcher of all time. As a short kid from Houston, who’s only athletic skill was throwing things really hard, Billy Wagner was my hero (alongside Craig Biggio, but I couldn’t hit to save my life).
He deserves to be in, and I think this could be his year. Greatest lefty RP of all time.
Him throwing 100 mph was always a big thrill when I was a kid watching him on the Astros 😊
Seriously. Wasn't nearly as common back then to see 100mph on the gun. These days there's a ton of guys throwing gas.
Please make a video on Derrek Lee. He was my favorite player in MLB Power Pros 2007 and I would love to see him get the respect he deserves. (Everyone like this video so Jolly can see this.)
Red Sox legend Billy Wagner WILL be a of Famer in 2024 (along with Helton and Beltre).
Jolly you are an absolute gift to baseball fans - amazing work as always
Extremely based, Wagner is the best lefty closer ever, was truly fun to watch. Shame hes not in the HOF already. Excellent video, Jolly
Haven't heard anybody use the term based in a really long time wow
Wait, Dennis Eckersly isnt in the Hall either? Thats shameful.
Edit: oh wait, he was a starter in his early career. So he is.
Yeah. Eckersley is usually left off a lot of relief pitcher lists because he had significant time as both a starter and reliever. At least he’s in the Hall regardless.
Yeah this dude I always made sure to get in MVP Baseball 2005. Dude gave me nightmares facing him as a kid. Him and Lew Ford. 100% should be a hall of famer.
Billy The Kid! The real life movie of rookie of the year! Wagner is a legend and deserves the HoF without question.
Wagner was the first Aroldis Chapman and is draft him on my fantasy team every year. Wagner was money and he threw gas.
I love this video... oddly, I used to get Wagner and Hoffman mixed up in my head all the time, at least when it came to fantasy ball. I started referring to Wagner as "the little guy" (he's my height) to get it straight in my head.
Get him in! Great vid
2:47 RIP Jose Lima
Braves fan here. Even if he hadn't played for us towards the end I would still say he belongs in the hall and it's wrong he's not there already. And he was better than Hoffman. Hoffman was an accumulator for the most part, Billy was dominant
I loved billy on the Phils. Killed me when he signed with the mets
I remember watching Billy Wagner when he was on the Mets. I think he was facing the Yankees. As a Yankees fan I thought, we still have a chance here. I had never seen him pitch before. As soon as he threw that first fast ball, I knew we lost. He may be my first pitcher I had ever seen where I thought, "having this guy pitch for you is unfair".
wait wait wait lmaooo.... you are a yankee fan and watching Wagner pitch was the first time you had that thought? Not to take anything away from Wagner but you didn't think that watching Mariano? Who is basically the greatest reliever of all time ie: better than Wagner at his own position and pitched at the exact same time?
That said, I distinctly remember a very annoying game in 2006 in which Billy blew a 4-0 ninth inning lead to the Yankees. It didn’t end up mattering, as the Mets ran away with the division that year, but it was frustrating nonetheless. Billy should be in the Hall, though (plus he’s one of Gary Cohen’s favorite players to talk to, which I find interesting and kinda unexpected).
Jay Jaffe has a fantastic article
Say title of vid and went "duh". But forgot people don't realize how incredibly talented this man was
I would love to see a video on the early 2010s Cincinnati reds. The best reds teams I’ve ever watched and they still couldn’t quite get it done, to the point of being no-hit in the playoffs. A recap of those years would be an interesting watch for me
I think the best way to explain why his small sample size of playoff numbers are so bad is largely he was on teams where he had to put in the work to get them over the hump to get in meaning by the time he got to the playoffs he was worn out. Now he should have been in the Hall ages ago but hopefully he gets those 5 votes he missed in year 9 for his final time. Also another intresting point is when he retired he still had more seasons in the tank but he wanted to go out on his terms
Fax, no lies told
Mr. Wagner has Nolan Ryan's stamp of approval. Enough said.
🤩
I agree.
yes. John Franco too.
yes he belongs in the hall. for one thing, he's conclusively the best lefty closer of all time. shouldnt that be enough, to be the very best at something. could we imagine having a hall without the best switch-hitter, the best defensive player, the best lefty starter, the best right-handed hitter? if one constructed a dream-team 25 man alltime roster, billy wagner would obviously be selected on the basis of being the best lefty reliever. but we cant construct a 25 man dream team from the 250 people in the hall.
4:40 my favorite part
Was something else being a braves fan during his last season
Informative video. I actually thought Billy Wagner was in the hall. I'm shocked and in disbelief. He was a very good pitcher. My only question, did his poor playoff performances cause the eliminaton of his teams from contention, or did he just get blown up in games that were already lost?
Jolly throwing out another banger
5:58 hi random Chris Martin cameo wtf. Never did I think I would see Chris Martin on a list with Mo Rivera and Billy Wagner
It’s a decimal point so in ERA that would be a Point. 2 point 00 era for example. Dot would be used in something like an IP address
For over a 10 year period closer to 15 he was top 10 closer alltime yup he should be in it... throwing 100 before science made it easier he just did it.
He was nails ask any player from 95 to 2008 it was him an mo for most part nobody wanted to see
Yes getting in. It's gonna be Beltre, Helton and Wagner. Mauer will get in next year or the following year.
Both him and K-Rod deserve to be in the hall
Rob was my favorite Br pitcher lol
Some of the numbers he put up were insane, both Wagner and K-rod should be in
Amen Wagner belongs in the hall along with Joe Jackson Dick Allen Lou Whitaker and Dale Murphy
My high school coach coached this guy at Ferrum
73.8% is so darn close. He'll be in next year.
As a Dads fan I request a formal apology for showing me a picture of brewers Hoffman
I totally forgot that Billy Wagner played for the Red Sox
I have no clue how this man did not snap his elbow with every pitch. Put him in the hall just for that.
While we're talking about mets closers, what're the chances of a video on John Franco?
Late to the party. Agreed with what Chris Rose said. When I saw Wagner I thought Hall of Famer. He should've been in the Hall already. If he doesn't, hopefully the Veterans committee will rectify that omission.
I agree that he belongs. He was iconic and a legend during his career. Little guy who was naturally right handed and threw 100mph southpaw. Billy the kid.
Put him in.
I got an ad for the black market!?!
Could you do a break down of why Jeff Kent should be in the Hall of Fame?
Ur a mets fan so I don’t expect u to but u should make a vid of why Utley should be a hall of famer
Wagner has a lower career WHIP than the six relievers in the HOF, slightly lower than even Mo’s, that’s wild.
Just bought myself a Red Sox billy Wagner jersey
The best lefty reliever ever.
Part of me thinks if Mets made the WS in 2006 and didn't have the collapses of 07, 08 he probably would be in.
As a Biased Mets fan, it just felt more lively hearing Enter Sandman for Wagner considering Mo Rivera hated the song and that genre of music in general.
Both of the top 2 guys on the HoF ballot should’ve been in a long time ago. Wagner was lethal, and Helton was the only player to bat .500 in a single month
No. I like Wagner but there has to be a threshold for greatness and Wagner was just really good. He never led the league in a single meaningful statistical category, and his playoff numbers are embarrassing. I can't think of one meaningful game he closed out. The same goes for Joe Nathan: pitched 10 career postseason innings and gave up 25 baserunners. Nobody cared about his 40 saves when that was going on.
Do you post your Stathead search queries anywhere? I've tried to replicate some of them to look further down the lists. You are taking out all Negro League players and starting with Live ball era for these right?
Yes, I usually start from the Expansion Era.
@@JollyOlive Okay. That makes sense. Thanks!
please make a video about Andruw Jones also not being in the HOF when he should be
Wag’s should’ve been in ages ago. But I think this is the year for Wags.
there's a 400 save club?
Can you please make a Julio Rodriguez video
the problem with the MLB hall of fame is the idea that there's a benefit to keeping people out. noone would complain if the top 3 percent of MLB players were inducted rather than the struggle to keep it as the top 1 percent.
So does KRod
Couldn’t pitch in October…
Wagner begets Britton. Good video, thanks.
Wagner is the man. He is more than deserving of the Hall.
Larry Walker video 2.0?
is that the same chris rose from battlebots.?
Besides Wagner, will we ever see relief pitchers get into the Hall again? Especially with the current trend of pitcher use?
Kimbrel
How about Jansen?
Hopefully the voters show some sense this year an finally vote him in.
Hated seeing this guy come out of the pen against the Cubs back whenthe Astros were stillan NL team. Though as much as I disliked it, I loved watching him pitch.
Todd Helton video please!!!
john franco and k-rod should also probably be in
Billy Wagner, Todd helton, Jim Edmonds, Carlos Delgado, steroids shouldn't matter because David Ortiz got in, so curt schilling, Roger Clemens, Sammy Sosa, Manny Ramirez, Alex Rodriguez, Gary Sheffield, mark McGwire. And if I'm missing anybody off the top of my head, but all those should be hall of famers.
Less then 2% short damn
So Does John Franco…?
Yes he does
27 war
Jolly banger #2
I call Billy Wagner the Lefty Mo for a reason
Minus the postseason success.
Chapman is third best. Need a video on him
First! New jolly olive banger 🎉🎉🎉
Ok, now do Curt Schilling
Do you think Torii Hunter is a hall of famer?
I would say no.
Credit him for getting 5% of the vote though.
He mentions Jansen and Kimbrel at the end...but I really don't think Jansen is nearly as good as Wagner. You can argue Kimbrel is deserve of serious consideration for HOF, but I'm not convinced you can say that about Jansen (he's more of a Hall of Very Good).
Well one thing we know is Billy won't be wearing a Mets Cap when he's inducted But as a Mets fan it would be a Honor to see him in it !!
It's not his choice
I understand the comparisons to Hoffman, I just don’t think either of them are hall of famers.
Kenny Lofton and Jimmy Rollins >>>
Please do a Bobby Abreu
Billy Wagner was a gunslinger who projected death out to a 60'6" radius, and that is all anyone needs to know.
lol wtf I hope you were high when you wrote that
@@juliebraden6911 Drunk. It's true though. Wagner would eat you up with that fastball, and he didn't mess around.
jolly olive should have a HOF vote
If you have to think about it or convince people, he does not belong in HOF
I hate how annoying these old voters are about the HoF. For Christ sake the NBA allows more dudes in every year and have like half the players in the league each year. Guys like Wagner jones Helton are obvious hall of famers and yet aren’t in yet
I think that silly Billy Wagner is a HOFer . It always looked painful the way he threw