Introducing Sorabji: A Short Chat About A Long Composer
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- čas přidán 29. 12. 2022
- 1. Sorabji: Sequentia Cyclica. Jonathan Powell (piano) Piano Classics (7 discs)
2. Sorabji: Piano Works. Michael Habermann (piano) Naxos (3 discs)
3. Sorabji: 100 Transcendental Studies. Fredrik Ullén (piano) BIS (7 discs) - Hudba
"remarkably ugly, yet sort of interesting" me too
Extremely precise description of how almost all people feel about his music on first hearing (that later become his most active proponents (or just fanboys like me), or even cultists in some cases)
"The less it matters the more fun it is." I think you've got a great new slogan for an upcoming Classics Today shirt! Happy Holidays!
Great slogan! If he puts it on a shirt I’ll buy one! 😋
I think his trascendental studies are pretty remarkable and valuable. I really enjoyed them once I understood his language.
I saw Powell do the first half of Sequentia in a tiny London venue as a kind of dry-run for his complete presentations. Still a very long night indeed, but the work hung together and you wanted ... more. Also caught JP playing Opus Clav in Glasgow, and again it did not seem too long or incoherent. With Sorabji live, the epic sense of one performer's struggle and achievement is moving in a way recordings don't convey. Which for me has been a big surprise.
I saw the same recital in London. I agree that Sorabji is best experienced live
Couldn't agree more. I saw Jonathan Powell play OC in Oxford and I went with the flow in a way I'm not sure i would listening at home .
@@MorganHayes_Composer.Pianist I attended Jonathan playing OC in Karlsruhe in 2017, and the Sequentia cyclica - split into 5 concerts - in Heidelberg last year. Brilliant and not boring for a second.
Sorabji felt alienated from wider British society due to his homosexuality, his mixed heritage, and an intense social anxiety (he described himself as a 'claustrophilliac'). He was also his sick mother's sole carer, and after she died, his long term partner's sole carer (his partner had undergone electroshock therapy for his homosexuality which left him with long-term mental health difficulties). To reduce that all down to "disdain" is pretty unfair.
No, it's perfectly accurate. No excuses.
@@DavesClassicalGuide No, it's not accurate. It's reductive and lacking in both nuance and empathy. He was hyper-sensitive and reclusive yes, and found the company of more than one other person at a time difficult - he admitted as much, access accepted it as a personal failing. The intensely introverted are often regarded as disdainful or aloof by the unimaginative, which only exacerbates their reticence. No excuses no, Sorabji doesn't need to be excused for being the person he was.
@@softnflabby I wouldn't pay much attention to this channel to be honest. Have watched a few videos and it just appears to be relentlessly negative narcisstic blowhard stuff.
My only encounter with Sorabji was Yonty Solomon’s disc of Le Jardin Parfume, on the Altarus label (1992), one disc=one track. That was back in my “Hamelin Plays the Composer-Pianist/Robert Rimm: Hamelin and The Eight” phase. I did find some fascinating, glittering, really beautiful regions of music, but after a few listens, tucked it away. Unique, exotic, but I wasn’t sure I really trusted the guide for such lengths. Messiaen, Ligeti (as you point out), Scriabin, Jarrett, and others’ piano explorations are as cosmic, and sometimes more succinct (even Jarrett!). But vast expanse is part of the rationale I guess.
great coverage of this obscure composer dude!
You're probably right, but I'm a die hard fanboy. There's some realy great music and I'd like to think that the hit rate is as good as many other composers. He only wrote a few large scale orchestral/choral works but your viewers may be interested in Symphony No 2 'Jami' which you can hear on my youtube site.
Well, your review sent me scuttling off to Wikipedia and other sources. It seems he has always had a following of sorts. I will have to listen to some of the stuff, 'when I have time.' Busoni and Alkan, along with Debussy and Scriabin, seem to be main influences. Being a composer in England couldn't have been easy for anyone.
A most adroit and fair assessment.
For what it's worth, I think the early works are by far the best. I played 'In the Hothouse' back in 1982 - ravishingly beautiful, and short and easy to play. There are wonderful moments in 'Gulistan' 'Le jardin Parfumé' and the early piano sonatas, where the notes really matter. The later things are just any old notes thrown down by someone with far too much time on their hands, over-complicated textures, fugues on five subjects. Life's too short. Who needs it?
" The later things are just any old notes thrown down by someone with far too much time on their hands, over-complicated textures, fugues on five subjects" Which works are you referring too? btw Bach wrote 5 part fugues (Bb minor Bk1)
There is much received opinion about Sorabji and his music. I would encourage people to listen for themselves “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!” Sorabji was a genius.
No, he wasn't, but you don't have to be to write interesting stuff some of the time.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Please elaborate on your definition of what a genius is. Sorabji fits mine.
@@jaumbz Not Sorabji. I hope that elaborates sufficiently.
@DavesClassicalGuide He was a genius in a loose sense of the word, considering he had no formal training and learned everything from scratch. Not only that, but I can't recall any other composer being able to captivate my attention for more than two hours, let alone eight. That's an accomplishment that very few composers could do.
@@DavesClassicalGuide at least his orchestral works show that he is truly a genius.
no one doubts how great Beethoven is, he was genius but apart from his special works or extraordinary moments in his works, his music is boring and repetitive, and I can call it ugly at least in 80% of his works.
My favorite sorabji piece is the fantaisie Espagnole. Simply wonderful
Oh boy. I have tried a bit of that monster that John Ogdon played. Long and crazy sounds about right.
I sampled quite a bit of Sorabji a couple decades or so ago, and feel about that same way you do Dave. However I did really like the Sadko pastiche. Brevity (about 4 minutes I think) and of course Rimsky-Korsakov's memorable tunes contribute to its positive impression. It succeeds via well-composed layerings of themes rather than mucking about with murky harmonies.
yeah his Quasi Habanera is good. i find it to have a weird deadpan humor. though with Sorabji there's the everpresent possibility he's being totally serious... anyway, i'll give him credit for getting me into piano music. proto-clickbait videos advertised the O.C. as the "hardest piano piece ever" and my teenage interest was piqued. (I think that's how a good chunk of Sorabji-heads found him.) the suggestions led me to the Barber sonata... then the Copland Variations... and down the rabbit hole i went
Not a bad overview, but it’s odd that you described the music as “ugly” while sort of glossing over the nocturnes. Those are reasonably accessible and not that long. Gulistan in particular is worth a listen and one of the few works of Sorabji’s that casual listeners (and not just “cultists”) are willing to call a masterpiece.
yes ,totally agree, i couldnt've said it better.....(so then i wont....lol)😎 i have the GULISTAN on cd by Charles Hopkins and its a delightful piece to listen to, mysterious, a strange garden, or forest if u will, the challenge sometimes is to stay awake cos its sooo dreamyyy.....pure ASMR imho
Gulistan, djami, le jardin parfume, that one adagio from OC, in the hothouse, sonata 4 mvmt 2, villa tasca. All of these are beautiful works
After listening to sorabji for a while i do agree that his music doesnt really sound like music, i dont know why people like his compositions so much
@@bigball45 What do you mean it "doesn't really sound like music"? What is music supposed to sound like?
@@toothlesstoe i meant to say incredibly unusual sorry i was drunk while i wrote that
YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO SORABJI!!!!!!!!!!
Sorabji's music is just absurd. Frankly, I am not willing to put in the number of hours that would be necessary to understand/enjoy it. Do you plan to talk about Medtner? His music may be enigmatic on first listen, but if you give it just a little time, it becomes very enjoyable. M.A. Hamelin has said as much.
just listen to his nocturnes (gulistan, le jardine parfume and djami) and you will get it, especially his own recording of gulistan
There are things you can only listen in Sorabji music. That's why I listen to him.
Since we are talking about nuts composers, any chance we might get a video on Rued Langgaard?
I've talked about him on several occasions.
During The Holland Festival of 1982 Geoffrey Douglas Madge gave a complete performance of Opus Clavicembalisticum (in Utrecht). It was live on the radio, I recorded it on tape, but I found the music a bit humorless.
Madge is not an especially distinguished pianist--he just played a lot of stuff that no one else would touch, but the performances were adequate at best. This music needs more than that.
Is anyone reminded of HP Lovecraft somehow? Reclusive but a prolific writer and communicator, put out a negative public image because he found most people tedious (possibly had a personality disorder), wrote reams of weird stuff that taps into a bizarre imagination (I suspect some of KSS's longer works were designed not to be played as such but to invoke something).
Personality disorders are social constructs
I heard about Sorabji from Geoffrey Madge who I met accidentally on a Liszt evening in the early 1980's. He had just played the Opus Clavicembalisticum in the Hague conservatory, which was recorded on LP. It was the second performance of the work since Sorabji's own performance in 1932... I still have these records and listen to them sporadically.
Yes, one of the "cult forming" composers... definitely interesting as a composer
Very charitable. Years ago I took a look at Opus Clav as the score was in the library. Even on 1st perusal, mistakes were evident. That made me think he didn't really know what he was doing. Now here's the strange thing. In the recordings, there is a consistency of sound. Style perhaps? Dies Irae keeps him grounded to a surprising extent but my instinct tells me that there is not really a composer here. Editors perhaps.
Another impression I got was that it seemed like Sorabji decided in advance how many pages a work would be and then filled the space with dots. The big book ( Paul Rapport ) on Sorabji admitted this! This is not how music is written.
Besides John Ogdon, 2 complete recordings were made of Opus Clav, both by Geoffrey Douglas Madge. One in Holland on vinyl and 1 in Chicago on CD ( Bis?). Neither makes this work more interesting. Ogdon is slower in the "fugues" and that's about all there is to say.
Thanks for the video. The world of music is big enough for the genius, the mediocre and the frauds
Fun facts:
Sorabji’s handwriting is UNREADABLE, hence the many many mistakes in the early publications
Also, he would sometimes fudge the page numbers to get where he wanted. There are 336 pages in the manuscript of the 5th sonata, but the last page is numbered 343a (7^3)
Eric Xi Xin Liang has a great series of Sorabji performances on his channel Musicforever60. I'd recommend Djami and Le Jardin Parfum as accessible works that display Sorabji's skills as a composer. It's also worth considering that his earlier works were a lot more conventional: he didn't start out with pantonal bombast, OC is the final point of a long process of exploration, and it's probably best as a listener to follow him along the road, rather than skipping to the end.
@@Eden_LaikaSorabji exhibited continued development past OC. He explored conventional tonality more in his middle period, and then toward the end of his life wrote more atonal works.
@@toothlesstoe I never said he didn't. I was just referring to his work prior to OC.
I have never become interested in Sorabji's music (despite several attempts) but his writings are utterly fascinating, not only for his steadfast championing of then-underappreciated composers (he was well ahead of the game in his enthusiasm for Mahler and Rachmaninov, let alone Alkan) but also for the not-infrequent pithy expressions of his withering contempt for others (however uncharitable these assessments may have been). "Noisily-advertised weathercockadoodlery" (in reference to Stravinsky) may be my favorite insult all time, and his complaint about Ravel resorting to the "fille publique" of jazz in his piano concerto also gives me a chuckle every time I read it.
Sorabji, born Leon Dudley, was a poseur of a composer, who I find more interesting as a critic. He liked the maximalist composers--Busoni, Reger, Scriabin, and Szymanowski, as mentioned, but also Alkan (his real progenitor), Medtner (think of the Night Wind Sonata), Mahler before he was popular, and even Rachmaninoff--except the Second concerto (he much preferred the Third). He had cordial relations with Peter Warlock, and seems to have been a supporter of anti-establishment views among composers rather like Henry Cowell in the States.
I wonder if there's much value in his own works? There must be some for the many great pianists to have devoted time to learning his works.
I'd recommend his nocturns, Le Jardin Parfum, Djami and Gulistan as good starting points; Eric Xi Xin Liang has excellent recordings if each on his channel Musicforever60.
I really don't think your charge of 'poseur' is fair: Sorabji was a social recluse, who composed hundreds of pieces while forbidding performaces of his work. Surely a poseur composer would do the opposite? Court publicity while actually composing very little. In terms of composers motivated purely by a desire to create, I can't think of many who fit the bill better than Sorabji.
I just listened to some Sorabji... it's so chromatic...so very chromatic! And it's interesting, but it would have to be a lot more interesting than I think it really is. And let's face it, a little dab will do ya'. A very little dab
Sorabji was the modern Alkan. Both had a door-man to chase away unwanted callers at their homes, I believe. Sorabji did not die under a pile of books.
But neither did Alkan, interesting myth as it has been. He fainted and a coat rack may have fallen with him...
Alkan gave public recitals until the end of his life. He was not a recluse in the same way that Sorabji was.
Perhaps Sorabji was more of a modern Gesauldo, holed away in his castle from a hostile public. Only Gesauldo had good reason to be holed away in his castle!
@@DeflatingAtheismBeing a gay half-persian man in Britain in the early 20th century, I'd say Sorabji had plenty of reasons to hole himself up in a castle as well.
I am glad you introduced me to this composer, but the length of most of the works will surely make them unlistenable for me - an hour of it is the most I could handle at once. No cult for me! But judging from the Piano Pieces album you recommended, his music is hardly crazier than that of Ives, whose work I admire tremendously. This Sorabji is sort of like Milhaud in a bad mood crossed with Rachmaninoff in a much worse mood, and with no OFF button, as my late father would have said. Still, he’s more interesting than Scriabin, but less interesting than Ives. I am not a pianist so I can’t evaluate the technical difficulty, but Ravel’s Gaspard de la Nuit (among other pieces) ain’t no picnic either, yet no one denies its place in the repertoire. But Ravel is - you know - “pretty” sometimes, so “it’s okay”.
i love Ives, he’s def a lot more diverse in his output and more consistently accessible. but Sorabji’s peak works are just otherworldly, like Spanish Rhapsody and In the Hothouse (and even Gulistan). and as a pianist i can confirm that it’s in another realm of technical difficulty with all the polyrhythms/awkward hand movements/layers/phrasing that goes into making the texture sound right. that Jonathan Powell Sequentia Cyclica recording is unironically one of the greatest pianistic achievements, considering the stamina/concentration/difficulty he must’ve needed to play every bar of it flawlessly
You don't need to listen more than an hour of it at once. The standalone movements are often much shorter, and Sorabji is much more of a local-scale composer: Yes, there is a large-scale structure in his works, but in order to enjoy whichever section you're listening to, you don't need to keep the whole piece up until that point in mind. Instead, for any measure of his music you're currently listening to, most of the context needed can be found in what immediately preceded it
His writings reveal his insecurities and hatred for the world - and his music is the sonic equivalent of that. A thoroughly unpleasant, self-important composer whose goal was not to create music, but to impress.
how does his music express hatred for the world? could you isolate a passage of his works that best illustrates this? how does his insecurities manifest themselves in his music?
@@lesliechisnall2544 His insecurity is expressed by its mammoth length and sheer pretentiousness; his hatred by its deliberate unpleasantness.
you gotta be honest, did you hear it for 5 minutes and really decided that you heard everything? It's complex and requires a bit of time to understand. The problem is that you probably think of it as you think of other classical music, and expect the same, but how on earth than the new music is born? does it always have to be almost identical to the ones before it?
@@luka-gr1qx I see no reason to devote precious time, the remaining hours of my life, to music that is unpleasant to me. Music is basically entertainment. It does not make you a better person. There simply isn’t rational justification for such an investment. For me. If you enjoy his music, go nuts. I just want you to be happy.
@@gregorystanton6150 Have you heard my recordings of In the Hothouse, Le Jardin Parfumé, Djâmî, Gulistān, 6 movements from Opus Clavicembalisticum, 1 movement from Toccata Seconda, 2 movements from Opus Archimagicum, and 2 movements from Piano Sonata No.4? You won't be so quick to judge it the way you did
May I ask, why you purchased all those disks of uninteresting music, then? Was it just intellectual curiosity?
How do I know it's uninteresting until I listen to it? And it's not all uninteresting, and that isn't what I said. Some of it is, and some of it isn't.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I agree with your opinion, that nobody really needs 100 Transcendental Studies, but please just listen to No. 84 Tango habanera. Crazy high virtuosity as always, but this one has some sort of good humour, too. E.g. the final clusters or the well-hidden Rachmaninov quote at 8'17" (score p. 673)... Just fun!