Jordan Peterson, Bishop Barron, Jonathan Pageau, John Vervaeke: Psychedelics, Church, Ontology
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- čas přidán 25. 11. 2021
- Second part of the commentary on the conversation between @Jordan B Peterson @Jonathan Pageau @John Vervaeke and @Bishop Robert Barron • The 4 Horsemen of Mean...
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Paul, I love your enthusiasm as you do your commentary on this very deep subject matter. It is infectious. Laughing while learning - it's fun.
Jonathan and Mr Barron have gone up in my estimation for their contributions here, pointing to the pursuit of God rather than mere seeking of experiences. The chemically induced ones seem to me to be entrapment in one's fallen creatureliness, and putting oneself in a state of susceptibility to the deception of evil spirits, by the very fact that it is a turning away from pursuit of closeness to God. edit: p.s. I am also assured in my confidence in your good self on this question.
As a Christian who has used psychedelics, I’ve experienced profound love and oneness and closeness to God.
For me when it comes to any disruptive strategy that can induce a mystical experience I think intent is big. All break frames and afterwards can leave the person wide open. With the change of the persons openness going up, I’ve seen more than not , a lot of people basically sitting stuck in perspectival knowing. Having the ability to participate getting farther away while they stay stuck in their head. That’s a trade off that I’ve seen a lot with myself included. If the goal is a deeper participative knowing, and transformation, the experience itself can’t be the goal. There is a video with about 18 million views called “What happens when a portrait artist takes LSD.” It really helps see how the frame of the person is broken and put back together during the trip. Highly recommend it if you haven’t seen it. Really enjoyed the 56k modem story.
Whew - I was working way too hard.
Your advice regarding psychedelics is sound/wise. They do temporarily “open” metaphysical “doors” that can’t immediately be “shut” by the human will.
Picking up on what you say about
Haven't been to your channel for a long while, but I think you are doing a great job in this one. I learned a lot with these two commentaries. May His grace be your portion always!
Just because you can open a door doesn't mean you want to.
It seems like a shortcut to me. A way to be certain. A thing that undermines faith. It's in the same vein as seeking signs and wonders. But "neither will they be convinced should someone rise from the dead."
Thanks Paul!
Before I became Catholic, I was a baptist for a short time, I had a few significant mystical experiences that I haven't been able to find other protestants experiencing that wanted that stuff to happen to them. I saw a few demons and some spiritual stuff. But one was a completely sober reality change of me seeing Christ descend during the second coming. It was almost like a radio. I was walking in another channel and, after a few minutes, the dial was switched to the regular channel. It was so insanely real it shocked me it even happened to me for a few weeks. As a Catholic , I remember once at mass I had, i guess a vision, of Jesus I the Cross. His blood fell in to my hand and it made me so sad because i knew how few of His disciples came to His crucifixion and how I never would've come close if I didn't already have the context of His triumph. It took quite a bit for me to not break down completely. Just to hold the precious blood of the savior is simply too great a privilege for most of us.
Why not talk about fasting and meditation? Both are often a path to clarity and a vehicle to religious experience. I grew up in a family and in a church where it was not uncommon to have a religious "experience" during fast and prolonged meditation (pray). It requires self-discipline, and it is not as instantaneous as psychedelic substances. But we were also always reminded that these experiences could just as well be the devil wanting to pull us off the right path.
Wonderful commentary! I loved the four horsemen video and your commentaries enrich the discussion so much!
Another great video. Great points, the church is not the stultified science problem that is projected by the participants. I'd like to add that I'm deeply disturbed by the lack of care given to this subject by Jordan and John. They aren't pointing to the overwhelming data on downsides to these drugs they mention. Lots of people become clinically paranoid or become schizophrenics as the result of unsupervised drug use. The fact that 'properly' supervised use (not defined, not consistent and less than 1% of all actual psychedelic drug use, near as I can tell from the numbers readily available)
To make sure I understand you, is your sidebar regarding Pageau's and Barron's emotional facial expressions/response caused by their belief that psychoactive substances are cheap or inauthentic substitutes for "genuine" mystical experience(s) found in both Roman Catholic and Eastern religious traditions?
Logic is not the only game in town.
Thank you for fantastic commentary, you have a wonderful gift of explaining without dumbing down! God bless!
Got through the marathon, well worth it. Thanks Paul for the time and effort.
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