DID JOHN THORPE PROPOSE MARRIAGE TO CATHERINE MORLAND? Jane Austen NORTHANGER ABBEY novel analysis
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- čas přidán 29. 07. 2024
- Analysis of Jane Austen’s novel Northanger Abbey. Did the oafish John Thorpe propose to naïve Catherine Morland, in Jane Austen’s novel Northanger Abbey? John Thorpe tells his sister, Isabella Thorpe, “that he as good as” made Catherine Morland “an offer” of marriage, & that she “received his advances in the kindest way”, simultaneously Catherine Morland “with all the earnestness of truth, expressed her astonishment at such a charge” (ch.18). Who is right? Did John Thorpe actually propose?
The lecture:
• Close reads & analyses the ‘proposal’ scene between John Thorpe & Catherine Morland to show Jane Austen’s brilliant literary technique in creating two conflicting conversations in one dialogue
• Considers John Thorpe as a spoof Gothic villain (where his Gothic villainy is converted into everyday villainy - such as the kidnap episode on their trip to Blaise Castle)
• Examines how John Thorpe tries to utilise the language of sensibility & ‘effusions of fancy’ of contemporary novels
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What are your thoughts on Jane Austen’s construction of the 'proposal' scene between John Thorpe and Catherine Morland?
@Dr Octavia Cox. John Thorpe did not propose. He simply could'nt find the words. He sent his sister to feel Catherine out which has the added advantage of not committing himself! I have a great inference for you on how MR Morland deliberately interferes in James and Catherine's respective engagements. More importantly I have some paid work for you. I need an email address where I can send it to?
I have to say, your excellent analysis of the scene has made me feel much more sympathetic towards John than I did previously. :) He's _trying_ to communicate with Catherine in the way he assumes (based on his knowledge of Isabella's literary tastes) that she wants to be addressed, and failing completely - not because he's insincere, but because, as a typical man (not quite a caricature, Austen never needs to resort to it), he has to adopt strategems when communicating with ladies, and does not have the intellectual capacity to do so successfully. A warning to all of us. :)
Incidentally, I think Mrs Elton would give Isabella a run for her money in the affectation stakes.
As someone who has had interactions at such cross-purposes, I have a high degree of empathy and compassion for both parties in this scenario. Disastrous miscommunication is perhaps one of the most notable leitmotifs of my own life and it is little surprise that I appreciate reading it and hearing about it in Austen as well.
Darcy also walks around restlessly before proposing. Catherine is a simpleton and I find it difficult to believe that Tilney will settle for her.
I often wonder when reading Northanger Abbey how a character like Elizabeth Bennet would behave around John Thorpe, in particular the carriage scene to Blaize Castle as John is so contrary I can imagine Lizzy being able to outwit him and lightly laugh at him.
Also can I ask in P+P Wickham talks about essentials in regards to Mr Darcy. What does essentials mean in the context of this dialogue? Thanks x x x
Next Northanger Abbey episode: How understanding muslin makes a man the perfect guy for you. :D
Ha! And let us not forget that Henry Tilney also understands (and enjoys) novels too...
Henry is a clergyman so helps the poor. He knows what cloth lasts.
@@DrOctaviaCox And he's witty. He's a keeper for sure!
@@wednesdayschild3627 But isn't muslin quite delicate? I mean he states he knows it because of his sister. But I like that he remembers and knows how important that knowledge is :D
@@Marielusi he says that. He doesn't tell Catherine he is a clergyman. He has to be thrifty. Remember miss Crawford in Mansfield park, she didn't want to marry a clergyman. They have to economize. Catherine is used to it. Her father is a father.
Poor John. Everyone may be the star of his own story, but John thinks he's the dashing hero of a gothic romance, when he's the clown in a two-bit panto.
Ha! - the very opposite of how we are supposed to view the actual heroine of this mock-gothic romance - "No one who had ever seen Catherine Morland in her infancy would have supposed her born to be an heroine" (ch.1).
John Thorpe is an awful bore and a boob.
Thank you for addressing one of my most favorite Austen lines “I cannot speak well enough to be unintelligible”
I've always thought that Thorpe's exclamation of "that is honest!" is such a tell, because the young Thorpes are chronically dishonest about nearly everything. Ironically, it is Catherine's honesty that makes her unintelligible to the mendacious Thorpes.
When you were pointing out how Thorpe can't even think of anything special about Catherine, I couldn't help thinking of the scene at Northanger when Catherine has heard from James about his break with Isabella. Henry asks Eleanor how she would like such a sister-in-law - having just described every quality Isabella lacks. Eleanor smiles, seeing that he has described Catherine, and says she would like such a sister-in-law very much. The difference between the real and the false lover is clear, one of those contrasts all through the novel. John Thorpe's proposal scene is one of the funniest in a very funny book.
Absolutely - great point! Yes, Eleanor "smile[s]" knowingly , and then Catherine shows herself to be all those very qualities (open, candid, guileless, with strong but simple affections, and undisguised) in her next, kind-hearted, suggestion about Isabella:
"[Henry:] “Prepare for your sister-in-law, Eleanor, and such a sister-in-law as you must delight in! Open, candid, artless, guileless, with affections strong but simple, forming no pretensions, and knowing no disguise.”
“Such a sister-in-law, Henry, I should delight in,” said Eleanor with a smile.
“But perhaps,” observed Catherine, “though she has behaved so ill by our family, she may behave better by yours. Now she has really got the man she likes, she may be constant.”
And yes, a very funny book!
@@DrOctaviaCox This is my favourite passage in the book!
Do I think John Thorpe proposed? Yes, since he think he did. However, he did it so badly he gets the award for most disastrious proposal in Austen's work, outranking Mr Collins, Mr Darcy and Mr Elton combined. At least they managed to properly convey that they were actually proposing, rather than making some obscure hints and not getting an proper yes or no. Even a distracted lady should notice if she's being proposed to for Heaven's sake.
Please make a video of this: Austen's proposals ranked from worst to best. I'd love to see that. Love your videos!
Ha! - well, yes, you would have thought that would be at the top of the list! I think it might be part of his arrogance, though, simply to assume that everyone else must obviously understand what he means. Mr Collins at least recognised that he should say something like "And now nothing remains for me but to assure you in the most animated language of the violence of my affection" (ch.19) - even if he had clearly made it up in advance ("though I sometimes amuse myself with suggesting and arranging such little elegant compliments as may be adapted to ordinary occasions, I always wish to give them as unstudied an air as possible" (ch.14). Yes, a video on the proposals in Austen would be interesting - lots of material!
I second the motion!! I would love a ranking of proposals!
I'd like a ranking video too!
@@DrOctaviaCox A curious thing about Austen's novels is that she mostly provides dialogue for disastrous and rejected proposals: Darcy's first proposal to Elizabeth; Mr Collins to Elizabeth; Mr Elton/Emma and of course Thorpe/Catherine Morland. But the successful ones either happen 'off stage' as it were, or are strangely lacking in directly reported speech of the actual proposal and especially the acceptances : e.g. Jane/Bingley; Darcy's second attempt with Elizabeth; Collins/Charlotte; Elinor/Edward Ferrars; Marianne/Brandon; Henry Tilney/Catherine. The exceptions are Wentworth/Anne Elliott, but this is in the form of a letter rather than dialogue and again we do not hear Anne's direct reply; and Knightley's famous 'If I loved you less, I might be able to talk about it more' speech - but even here, Austen writes: "What did she (Emma) say? - Just what she ought, of course. A lady always does." I guess that there is little comic potential in a successful proposal! Or even romance? As Algernon Moncrieff says in 'The Importance of Being Earnest: "There is nothing romantic about a definite proposal. Why, one may be accepted."
@@jogibson9394 Yes, my most frustrating moment in Austen literature is Emma's unstated reply to Mr. Knightley's proposal. It's so coy - such an anticlimax! At least in Darcy's second proposal to Elizabeth, Austen gives the scene more descriptive language, even if we don't get the dialogue from Lizzy. I can at least imagine Lizzy's response because of Austen's description of her fumbling for words, Darcy's face, etc.
He “as good as made” her an offer. So in his mind, his speech was close enough to a proposal to qualify as the real thing, but I think that deep down he knew he hadn’t actually said the words the way a proper gentleman would. Her seemingly roundabout way of responding mirrored his lack of directness, hence his urgency to get confirmation from her through Isabella.
When he stumbled over describing her, it seems to me that he was catching himself just in time before blurting out that he found her primary attraction to be her imaginary fortune. He’s not such a complete clod that he can’t recognize how gauche it is to admit that he’s only proposing to a girl for her money. If he had been inadvertently honest at that moment, Catherine would have been able to clear up his confusion immediately. It’s also funny how Catherine is clearly thinking about James’s lack of fortune when she talks about marrying for money being evil, and John thinks they’re on the same page.
I love Northanger Abbey so much! I remember the first time I read it, many years ago, and thinking that Thorpe could only have gotten as far as he did because Catherine was simply that naive. Any more savvy girl would have picked up on all his sideways remarks, and found ample opportunity to put him off. Instead, Catherine is simply oblivious, and unfailingly polite. I laughed so hard reading it. Brilliant Austen!
Ha! - yes. A wonderfully funny book. If only Catherine had been less polite! But "This may be bad morality to conclude with" (Persuasion, ch.24).
Even when she gets angry and direct with Thorpe about lying to miss Tilney, and when she demands he let her off the carriage: He just ignores it or shrugs it off. Part of me thinks it's her being too polite, but more of me thinks he doesn't really listen to her and she can't be direct during the proposal even if she did get an inkling. It's not like she can no to a question she isn't asked.
This is a place where Katherine’s naïveté rescues her. Isabella and John ‘knew’ that she was an heiress and looked to box her in and she just blithely denied their attempt. John wasn’t stupid enough to be ignorant of her feelings for Tilney and her disdain for him
I've had socially awkward stalkers who certainly thought they had asked me out in less precise language than John Thorpe uses in his "proposal." That scene reminds me of those occasions, in the sense that Thorpe is oblivious to anything outside of his own single-minded purpose. He's had the conversation in his own head already, doesn't express it well, and can't conceive of Catherine refusing him so he hears what he wants. It's just the way things are supposed to go; first you decide you want the girl, then you kidnap her a few times and ignore any evidence that she isn't enjoying herself, then you propose and get the girl.
An ex of mine managed to interpret my saying "let's slam back a couple beers and watch Fight Club because who knows how long it'll be on Netflix" as not only an invitation to a date (it was not), but tantamount to a declaration of love and exclusivity.
Meanwhile I just wanted an excuse to rewatch Fight Club.
I had someone misinterpret a hello and a polite conversation as I wanted to sleep with him. Because in his words, why else to males and females talk.
Causation doesn't equal correlation
Just because no one had wanted to sleep with him and no girl had spoken to him in a friendly way, doesn't mean speaking = sleeping
@@WinningSidekick Err, I don’t know about love and all that, but it definitely sounds like you asked them to Netflix and chill.
If a guy asked me did I want to watch something together with a couple of beers I would definitely be reading it as a hook up request. 😅
In the future might be an idea to make it *very* clear sex and/or romance are not part of the deal. No one’s fault, but this is our modern ‘courting culture’. 😂
Yes. God help the poor women who ended up married to the John Thorpes of this world.
@@--enyo--nothing modern about hyper patriarchal crap like that. Same old same old. Those guys can get on Tindr and be honest.
When one reads the conversation from a John Thorpe-is-proposing point of view, you see just how ham-handed and transparently fortune-hunting he is--and at the same time, how all of the above would fly over Catherine's 'please be gone already, sir' head.
Absolutely - it's so wonderfully constructed by Austen because you can see exactly how the conversation is being understood completely differently by the people participating in it.
I think my only complaint with John Thorpe's reading is that he asked if she was going to HER BROTHER'S WEDDING and then read into it when she said yes. It's just such a stupid thing to ask and read into, almost like he's not giving her the choice to say no, because it's her brother. And his wedding.
It is indeed rather stupid, but stupidity reigns over John Thorpe!
Exactly, he asks her questions that she wouldn't say no to; why would she say she doesn't like marriage? Why would she say she doesn't like her brother and friend marrying. He can't ask for her hand directly because his delusion would be shattered
It's like an early version of a male "friend" who says things like, "Oh, ha ha, we're having dinner together like we're on a date!" And if you're like, "No, we're just having dinner like people do," he's all, "I was just joking! God! Can't you take a joke?"
I thought so, too. He was trying to trap her. Yes, he's stupid, but I've known a few stupid but very cunning people myself. He thinks that Catherine is very rich, and she's very young and inexperienced. If he doesn't catch Catherine, he isn't likely to get another opportunity to catch a very rich, very young, very inexperienced girl. It's now or never.
@@edennis8578 She should be very happy in her poverty.
The more I understand Jane Austin's writing, the more I am impressed with it.
An excellent analysis! In regard to the "old song" John Thorpe mentions, I wonder if I might have found it. When I was in England in 1972 I picked up a little book (4"x6") called "101 Scottish Songs," selected by Norman Buchan and published by Collins in 1962, although my copy is a reprint from 1970. It further says it is part of Scotia Books, general editor J. B. Foreman. On page 60 is the song "An Auld Maid in the Garret," and it begins, "Now I've aft times heard it said by my father and my mither That tue gang tae a waddin' is the makins 'o anither. If this be true, then I'll gang wi'oot a biddin'. O kind Providence won't you send me tae a waddin?" I found online another version dating to 1636 in Martin Parker's "The Roxburghe Ballads" -- "The Wooing Maid," which includes the words, "'Tis said that one wedding produceth another-This I have heard told by my father and mother-Before one shall scape me, Ile goe without bidding;O that I could find out some fortunate wedding!" (Frankly, I like my version better!) At any rate, it seems to me that John Thorpe might have been thinking of some version of this song.
Wow! - thank you. That's great. Yes, he might indeed. I suppose it may well be that, as a popular saying, it formed the basis of many an old rousing tune!
The internet can be a wasteland, but I do love how it can bring people with such specific knowledge together! Great find! :D
Thanks for the date of the Parker broadside! My researches didn't track it down that far.
@@Tevildo Here is the information I have on that broadside. Unfortunately when I saved the information I didn't realize how important it is to note my sources! So I can't send you to the site. Sorry! Here is the info. "Martin Parker's "The Wooing Maid" in Roxburghe Ballads III, p. 52-6, has often been pointed out as the source of the traditional song that usually commences "I have a sister Sally, she's younger than I am". Parker's ballad was entered in the Stationers' Register on June 18, 1636." "Printed at London for Thomas Lambert, at the signe of the Hors-shoo in Smithfield."
@@theladyfausta Yes, the internet can be great!
I had always thought John Thorpe and his sister had set out to deliberately trap Katherine knowing that she was too gentle to be cruel and too naive not to possibly fall for such a trap and see herself as promised away with no way out inn that scene. He thought (or as you pointed out, had worked his way into the opinion by his own ego) that she had some large fortune he could get his hands on. It didn't hurt that she was such an easy person to get on with. Her feelings he easily contrived as more flirtatious to him than they were the same way he inflated her money, but the trap very much was a trap!
If fortune was nothing to John Thorpe, he wouldn't have invented one for Catherine. If we did not know about how he talks to General Tilney about it, we might have taken his declaration at face value.
I'm not sure the Thorpes are quite that cold-blooded. I think they often fool themselves. Isabella's letter to Catherine later in the book, after Henry Tilney's brother has played her for a fool, doesn't do a thing to manipulate Catherine-- but it does honestly show all Isabella's humiliated feelings. So it's definitely not something that a coldly manipulative villain would write. I can imagine John Thorpe convincing himself that Catherine will be thrilled and grateful to be his wife!
I don’t think the Thorpes are clever enough to scheme to trap Catherine. Although they both seem to think the Morlands are wealthier than is actually true, I’m still not convinced they would try to “trap” her, which seems like a level of viciousness the Thorpes don’t possess.
The situation reminds me a little of the times nowadays when a guy asks for your number, or is trying to flirt with you, and because women are told we have to be polite, (or sometimes we’re nervous about how they’ll respond to a firm “no”), we smile and listen. Then that is interpreted as flirting back by oblivious men.
I have absolutely been in that situation in real life (and known other women to be.) Not as serious as marriage, but definitely "go on a date/be my girlfriend" kinds of woes. Women get trained to make polite indirect nos, and men get wishful thinking when they really want something. Miss Austen is such a boon for spelling this stuff out.
I always took the "you have so much- so much of everything" as him starting to list her (supposed) wealth as an attraction, realizing it's a bad move, and not being able to fill in anything else.
I think John Thorpe and Catherine Morland's speaking at cross purposes was possible because John is very cowardly in his speaking style, as if he speaks in riddles on purpose to provide plausible deniability if she should take offence at his words. A more experienced, older woman might have picked up on his intentions, but Catherine was only away from her home for the first time in her life and still thinks that others are all as honest as she is. She also could not have supposed him to be interested in her for her money because she didn't have any (it was all in his head that she did). So though they could both have come away from the conversation with a different understanding of what happened, I think John is more at fault because he's undoubtedly older and more experienced and was purposely vague.
Even if purposely vague at the beginning - why would he have remained so once she had - so he thought - agreed to marry him? I think anyone being straightforward in that scenario would then have be been overjoyed, and would have confirmed it immediately.
I love how conversation between Isabella and Catherine in Chapter 6 is so reflective of this conversation, with much of it going over Catherine’s head.
Excellent observation, Kat, yes. Catherine's naivety is on show throughout that whole conversation. We might think particularly of this exchange as an example of her not understanding false flattery:
[Isabella:] "for _you_ are just the kind of girl to be a great favourite with the men.”
“Oh, dear!” cried Catherine, colouring. “How can you say so?”
The end of the chapter is particularly hilarious! - Isabella notices some attractive young men, but "Catherine, with unaffected pleasure, assured her that she need not be longer uneasy, as the gentlemen had just left the pump-room".
@@DrOctaviaCox I so love Catherine's character. Yes she is naive, but she's never come across real manipulators before. She's away from her pure hearted family, and under the care of Mrs Allen who isn't particularly socially savvy herself.
I always read it as John Thorpe proposing to Catherine. However, both John and Isabella are completely in their own worlds with an entire narrative already written in their heads. Neither of them really see and understand Catherine, so it makes sense that John would misinterpret Catherine's responses.
That's a great point about John and Isabella having their own narratives already written in their minds. I think your observation might be extended to apply to the Thorpes as a whole family. Take this description of the younger sisters, for example: "Mrs. Thorpe was a widow ... and a very indulgent mother. Her eldest daughter had great personal beauty, and the younger ones, by pretending to be as handsome as their sister, imitating her air, and dressing in the same style, did very well" (ch.4). The assumption that the family members will do "very well" by "pretending" seems to pervade the whole lot.
Yeah totally when you read it you see that he's getting the wrong idea! In all the other austen novels the men propose outright and ok they don't always take the rejection well but they don't do weird half proposals! Aka 'Asgoodas' proposals. I don't think there's ever been a character quite like Thorpe.
@@charlotteottaway2208 I think Mr. Elton was much like Thorpe. Remember the riddle that he gave Emma? It's clear from his behavior later that he assumed that Emma understood it was a declaration of love for her.
I always interpreted that "proposal" scene as John Thorpe being deliberately vague towards naive Cathrine to sort of trick her, into saying that she has consented to marry him ☺️ I didn't think it was an honest misstake in communication but a deliberate one on his part in order to snare her and her belived fortune! I get the impression that John in fact realises that Catherine is interested in Mr Tilney and tries to snatch her before Mr Tilney does. What do you think about that Dr Cox? 🙂
This was my reading also: he thinks Catherine won't protest too loudly and he can get away with it. But I'm very intrigued by Dr. Cox's reading - I've only read Northanger Abbey once, so I guess it's time for Round 2!
I also think that this was somewhat deliberate, but Thorpe was too dim to pull it off. he is helped by the fact that she is so anxious to get rid of him that she wasn't thinking clearly about what he is saying. There are in effect three conversations. She is thinking to herself because she so much doesn't doesn't want to ne alone with him.so she isn't paying attention to him.
In another context Katherine's conversation later on with Isabella where she denies his 'proposal' would have been a greater set down. Katherine doesn't have it in her to be nasty to anyone, but in this conversation she comes as close as possible
I would agree (he would certainly be sneaky enough to try), except for the very end of the scene, when he congratulates himself for the warm reception of his romantic advances (he would also be be obtuse enough to believe that).
No, I see him as just boorish and conceited. We’ve all met men who won’t take no for an answer and consider a polite “good morning” as sexual encouragement. Thorpe doesn’t know how to flirt - most of his talk consists of ridiculing others, even his own mother. I think he believed it was impossible for Catherine not to want him - I mean, he’s such a capital fellow, right? - and I suspect that even if Catherine had had the social confidence to refuse Thorpe as firmly as Lizzie refused Mr Collins, he would still have left the room thinking he’d been accepted.
What I got from the extract was that he was proposing to her in his head but he forgot to tell her he was proposing lol
I often think if she had said nothing at all in response he would have still left that meeting thinking they were engaged.
Ha! - yes. Very well put. But then I think he is arrogant enough to assume both that she understands what he's talking about and that she'd leap at the chance of marrying him!
@@DrOctaviaCox I cannot help comparing Thorpe to Mr Collins. Both propose to the heroine, and completely misunderstand the response. Catherine (implicitly) and Elizabeth Bennet (very explicitly) reject the addresses paid to them, but the men go away convinced they have been successful -- all because they are living in their own fantasies and do not understand the women they are addressing at all. Thorpe may have the singular accomplishment of being worse than Collins. At least Mr Collins made it abundantly clear that he was proposing to Elizabeth. Thorpe, on the other hand, was continually hinting rather than stating his intentions explicitly. Compare that to Darcy's first proposal, where he launches into a very direct statement of his admiration for Elizabeth, however much he had also misunderstood her at that point. Thorpe does not have the courage or the skill to state exactly what he wants.
@@himbo754 Excellent observation and comparison! In comparing Thorpe and Collins with Mr. Darcy, you also see their differing responses. Thorpe and Collins each continue with their lives convinced the women have been foolish in rejecting such a catch as themselves. Mr. Darcy's response, however, was to examine defects in himself and change. He rights the wrong he had done to Bingley and Jane. This just continues the change we see in Darcy throughout the novel: there's a progression of moments where he goes from being safe in his social status from attachment to one with the admirable qualities of Elizabeth, to being in love with her, to sacrificing his reputation to help her even when he doubts she will ever be his own. (This is why I love Darcy!!)
Another great proposal misunderstanding is Mr. Eliot's. Emma didn't understand who the intended bride was for a while. :-)
I get frustrated with Isabella and John because they seem to be ambushing Catherine. And I had always assumed John was just lying and making their conversation more than it was. This was very interesting!
I think it's very easily glossed over because Catherine pays no attention to it. I'm very pleased you found it interesting. Thank you!
Plus, when we identify with Catherine herself, we end up interpreting everything through her eyes - at least for the first time around. We become as naive. The second (or third) time around, we laugh because now we see the gorgeous miscommunication!
Hurrah, my favourite Austen novel! Catherine reminds me a lot of a younger version of me which is why I have such a fondness for it.
Yes, a great novel. And Catherine's got loads of great qualities! I confess I'm rather fond of her too.
It would be interesting to do a discussion on why exactly Henry Tilney chooses to marry Catherine. As I recall, it doesn't come from a very romantic place, at first...
Whatever that tedious guy thought he was doing, the salient point is that Catherine definitely didn't say she wanted to marry him. Hard as that is to believe. How could she resist?
Also, I love the peaceful yellow wall behind you, the filtered light from the narrow arch windows, and the little view of the world outside. It really creates a calm atmosphere.
Thank you. I rather like that the world goes on by outside the window.
@@DrOctaviaCox I may be wrong, and you needn't say, but I always fancy it's a street in North Oxford, and I grow nostalgic for my days there.
@@DrOctaviaCox I love the "back drop" as well, and I notice the trees are sometimes bare of leaves and sometimes in full bloom with green, and gives a sense of time passing.
An interesting point wbout his compliment of her 'good nature', because Henry Tilney also pays Catherine that compliment later, but he does it far more elegantly and cleverly
I always felt he asked her in the most vague way possible so he can force her into marrying him by claiming that he had proposed and she had accepted. Remembering that breaking an engagement was deadly back then for a woman.
I think you're being entirely too generous to Thorpe - he's trying to rope her into a marriage by gaslighting her into thinking she already agreed. The only quality in her he can name is her "good-naturedness" - he noticed that because it's what the whole scheme depends on!
I think it's too simplistic to say Charlotte was only marrying Collins for a "comfortable home". Marrying Collins is the only way Charlotte can be an adult. It's the only way she can move out of her father's house, have children, be in an equal relationship with others. It is hard to distinguish what is Collins versus the very prejudiced opinion of Collins from Lizzie. But what we know about Collins. His father didn't want him to go to college but Collins did anyway. Instead of just languishing and waiting for his inheritance of Longbourne Collins go to university and gets a very comfortable living by winning the job from Lady Catherine by merit. Despite being under zero obligation he offers for a Bennett daughter because he knew how precarious their situation is. His self imposed debt rebuffed he marries Charlotte- despite her having no fortune, unlike Elton. Yes, Collins as a minister is moralistic but how forgiving would any of the Bennet's been if it had not been their sister who ran off?
Those are some really good points. Hmm.
Yes, Mr Bennet mocks him for trying to make up for the fact that he inherits and they do not, when in fact it is an incredibly kind thing to do.
Mr Collins is mostly doing it to buff up his opinion of himself as a benevolent generous guy, but he's still willing to forgo some important material considerations in order to do a good thing way beyond the call of duty.
And in a more cynical light, as long as his wife abased herself before Rosings Park and conducted herself as a clergyman's wife should, she could have had him wrapped around her little finger.
Moralistic? He’s a self absorbed gossiping fool who spread their misfortunes all over and said Lydia would be better off dead. He’s lucky his wife is so smart and now has a patronage far greater than his through her dearest friend’s marriage.
I always read it as Catherine being VERY naive and didn't think John Thorpe liked her because she didn't like him, nor did she really pay attention to anything he said. But I agree, he did kinda propose.
I think Thorpe is used to express himself vaguely, haven't read the book for a long time, but I think he does it at other occasions. Then he can pretend afterwards, and probably think that it's true himself, that he said what is most convenient for him, when he knows the outcome.
So here, if Catherine really was positive to a marriage but did indeed wasn't an heiress, he would have convinced himself that they just discussed their siblings marriage (just as Catherine thought of it). But if she was going to inherent a fortune, he wanted to "secure his ground".
And he is so weak (and non-brave) so he wants everybody else to be first to make the definitive decision, even if it is a girl younger than him, whom he says he's in love with!
As a contrast we have Darcy, who makes very clear that he would like to marry Elisabeth, takes her no with at least some dignity, and then continues to follow his heart and offer it to her again.
(English is not my first language)
Yes I agree! He has to express himself vaguely because most of what he says is lies. He'd get caught out if he practiced accuracy. Even James tries to logic around his boasting.
Austen may not have been aware of NPD in her time (narcissist personality disorder, a recent labeling of a 20th century personality disorder), but she was well aware of people with the traits, such as John and Isabela Thorpe, and the master of Northanger Abby and his eldest son. As someone who is newly aware of this disorder myself and have escaped its clutches, I see the traits in many historical figures--fictional and non-fictional (Henry the VIII, Hitler). Austen was very aware of caring and uncaring, normal and abnormal, constructive and destructive in human nature.
The word first entered the language in 1889, and is now so grossly overused I could scream every time I hear it. Selfish people are not automatically narcissists.
As he thinks, that she gets his meaning: when she says "I never sing", shouldn't he have understood this as an explicit discouragement to his proposal ??
I guess he never considered that she could indeed refuse him and thus doesn't really listen to her. Still her response should have at least shaken his security a little.
Recently I have listened on youtube a conference by professor Douglas Murray who tried to draw parallels between Northangher Abbey and MeeToo movement. He analysed Thorpes's behaviour to Catherine as examples of stalking, gaslighting, mansplaining...it was interesting!
I can definitely see how that would apply to him!
Not to mention blatant kidnapping...
There are no CZcams videos that I enjoy more than yours, Octavia! I could have done with more of my Eng Lit lecturers being like you.
A lovely compliment, Jill, thank you.
It's one of my favourite pieces of comic writing. So witty. My first experience of Northanger Abbey was an abridged recording on cassette narrated by Joanna Lumley. With her wonderful husky voice she made John Thorpe sound like such a oaf!
Great analysis, Dr O. There's just that moment where you compare for a moment John Thorpe with Edward Ferrars - Thorpe as anti-hero and Ferrars as "a hero of sorts"... I'd love to hear you unpack all the ways Ferrars is and isn't the "hero" of S&S (and whether Col. Brandon isn't the real hero instead?). Also, this embarrassed proposal scene reminds me of Darcy proposing at Huntsford. "He sat down for a few moments, and then getting up, walked about the room. Elizabeth was surprised, but said not a word. After a silence of several minutes, he came towards her in an agitated manner, and thus began: "In vain have I struggled, it will not do" etc." Love your stuff!
I have to say that this is one of the best of the "Close Reading" videos. It is inspiring me to read "Northanger Abby" again! Whereas all my affection for Fanny Price cannot induce me to spend anymore time with her appalling Aunt Norris by re-reading "Mansfield Park"!
I did get through all of Northanger Abby again. Annnnd the audio book pulled me right back into Mansfield Park. Every time I try to get away, I get pulled back in!
Not what I think. I think James Thorpe is a deliberate deceiver, entrapping Catherine by manipulating the conversation , so that by his vague remarks about James’s wedding and expressed thoughts about marriage in general, he elicits responses that he can use to accuse Catherine that she was agreeing to a specific marriage to him. It was not something he was confused about or misunderstanding. I see him as very sinister.
Ah, okay - that's an really interesting interpretation. I may well have given him too much of the benefit of doubt! I read him as sinister, unpleasant, entitled, and vain enough to imagine that any woman would be thrilled with him, rather than Machiavellian. He doesn't seem clever enough to me to be truly Machiavellian!
But your interpretation might well tie in with Austen's use of "devilish" and "monstrous" as part of his lexicon. Thank you very much for watching.
I don't think John Thorpe is that smart. He's a bumbling bounder!
@@DrOctaviaCox I know you are a thousand times smarter than I am. And I am glad to say so. I base my assumptions on how he later claims rather boldly that Catherine did accept his proposal. I never would have thought John Thorpe would be deceived by his own imagination, but that is a Biblical teaching. “Deceiving and being deceived.” I will think about this.
@@dorothywillis1 I’m out of my element. I analyze the Bible and the wonderful characters and language of Bible world! And let me tell you, I think this is great fun. This Dr. Octavia is so smart it isn’t funny. God bless you!
This was how I always read it, too... It always seemed to planned on John Thorpe and Isabella's side.
Quite apart from the rather poor attempt at a proposal (which he seems only to half-realise wasn't brilliant - hence his letter to Isabella asking her to "urge his suit" to Catherine, though according to the same letter, he "as good as made [Catherine] an offer" which she "received in the kindest way"), John Thorpe is remarkably self-centred and thick-skinned.
In order to go out for rides for his own pleasure (and possibly to put off any competition from Henry Tilney) he twice lies - first, to Catherine, on the rainy morning of the outing in which he "kidnaps" her, and then to the Tilneys, just after she has re-arranged the walk with Henry and Elanor, causing Catherine immediately to run after that family, run past the servant at their door and - luckily - burst into the correct room where she explains what has happened - "the explanation being deficient only in it not being an explanation at all". (NB Catherine suggested to Thorpe, James and Isabella that their outing be postponed for a day, but Thorpe cannot countenance this - he doesn't know where he will be on the following day.)
Further, on the exchanges (in James' and Isabella's presence) about the value of his carriages, and on the rides out Thorpe is so full of contradictions, that one cannot wonder that Catherine - given her dislike of the man - would find it difficult to take anything he said seriously, even if she had understood what precisely he was driving at.
Well exactly, I think she's stopped even bothering to listen to him. It rather reminds me of Elinor Dashwood's response to Robert Ferrars in S&S: "Elinor agreed to it all, for she did not think he deserved the compliment of rational opposition" (ch.36). Ha! - Catherine's "explanation being deficient only in it not being an explanation at all" is just like Thorpe's proposal being deficient in it not being an actual proposal at all.
You inspired me to read all of jane Austen. I just finished this one last night!
What a lovely thing to say - I hope you've enjoyed reading them all. And what fabulous timing!
@@DrOctaviaCox I have, even though it's sad I think I like Mansfield Park the best.
@@heidiwren7713 Not sad at all! Mansfield Park holds a tie with Pride and Prejudice as my favorites of Austen's works. And there is an interesting recent article about Fanny's relevance in this age of COVID; as the one person at the Park who "holds the line" while all the others act with selfish irresponsibility.
@@Toriolees yes i love Fanny too. She has so much feeling that she has to keep in check. I feel like she has this childhood trauma of being isolated from everyone, and yet by the end of the novel she is finally appreciated.
While P&P is my favourite novel, my favourite Austen hero is definitely Mr Tilney. He’s funny, witty, smart and kind, and he doesn’t brood like Mr Darcy. I’ll even forgive him being a clergyman since he has such an understanding of muslin!
He's a better-developed Mr Bingley. I always imagine Crispin Bonham-Carter as Mr Tilney!
@@schoo9256 I love Mr. Tilney's character!
Hurrah! A new Octavia Austen video!
Hurrah! - I hope you enjoy it.
"Octavia Austen" - she must be Jane Austen's great great great great grand niece (and maybe add another great or two)
I just want to say how much I appreciated your breakdown of this passage! I've always loved Jane Austin and I've read Northanger Abbey several times, but I never truly got how much was going on here to the level of detail you've laid out for us. Northanger Abbey wasn't really one of my favorites until I watched your different videos on it--I feel like for a lot of us we simply don't have that vital cultural context necessary to catch all the nuance Austin imbued her work with. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with us!
It's my pleasure - thank you for watching them.
Northanger Abbey was one of the JA novels I had to grow into... It hides its cleverness quite well.
That's a great way to put it - it hides its cleverness well. I think also because it's easy to dismiss Catherine as naïve and silly (on a first read at least) readers might be fooled into dismissing the whole novel as the same.
@@i.b.640 I love that! I never thought of that. They embody the opposite of the kind of characters that probably inhabit the novels that Catherine likes to read.
I didn't care for Northanger Abbey until I understood that it was parodying gothic romances. Once I was familiar with the trope, it was hilarious.
Although Thorpe's proposal is oblique where Collins' is blunt, there are similarities between these two proposals in Northanger Abbey and Pride and Prejudice. "Fortune is nothing," insists the fortune-hunting John Thorpe to Catherine, during a 'proposal' which is motivated by her supposed status as the Allen's heiress. Similarly, although he is not a fortune hunter (quite the reverse), in Mr Collins' proposal to Lizzie Bennet he states: "To fortune I am perfectly indifferent..." which is just as dishonest of him as John Thorpe is to Catherine. Collins knows exactly what Lizzie is due to inherit: "... one thousand pounds in the 4 per cents (i.e. £40 per year), which will not be yours till after your mother's decease, is all that you may ever be entitled to." And both gentlemen are incredulous at being rejected.
I have to agree that John Thorpe did propose but he was only paying attention to what would support his own plans. He needs a lesson in speaking what he means and not trying to be gallant, since he isn't a poet at all. Austen highlights the differences between the Morelands and the Thorpes with John's proposal. I can imagine that John involved Isabella in checking on the progress of his proposal, hoping pressure from Isabella would close the deal. I am always glad that Catherine isn't easily persuaded by her friend.
To think I didn't like this novel of Austen's when I first read it. I use to think Catherine was a bit stupid and gullible and that the Thorpe's, as a whole family, were annoying in the extreme! However, since I really enjoy Austen, I reread it and found that Catherine wasn't stupid. She was innocent and a bit naive and thanks to the Tillneys (Henry and Eleanor), who protect that innocence, she learns many things without falling into disgrace like the Thorpes. It's a shame Isabella and John didn't try to learn from their Moreland friends, instead of trying to be so worldly wise and money hungry. It goes to show that if you don't like a particular novel on the first reading, it can improve with the second or third 😊.
Oh very much so! I wholeheartedly agree. In fact, I would go so far as to say that all good books improve on a second (third, fourth, fifth...) reading.
His cryptic ways of proposals didn't help his case. He comes out as silly if not stupid. And as you correctly pointed disingenuous 🤦☺️
I think Catherine Morland knew very well what John Thorpe was insinuating and was deliberately 'misunderstanding' him, getting more and more desperate, when he is not discouraged.
I see both of the Thorpes as the kind of people who don't pay proper attention to what others say, they sort of make it up in their heads for you, at least in part. There's a general shallowness that comes from self-absorption.
Great video. Catherine and Thorpe are having a conversation, but they're not having the same conversation. Ha.
Just re-read Northanger Abbey. Was struck this time by how much John Thorpe reminds me of an internet troll. Not just in the sense that all one wants is to avoid them, but also a deeper similarity in personality -- they don't say (or sometimes even know) what they really believe, they enjoy being as offensive as they can get away with, they bully and domineer over others, they're completely self-absorbed, and when they encounter even mild disagreement, they go out of their way to punish, using all manner of lies and slander.
I once learned that I was engaged even though I recall no proposal nor ring nor understanding. After mental gymnastics, I finally recalled him once in trivial conversation asking if I “would ever marry a guy like me”. Uhhh….. yeah…. I don’t see why not. 🤦🏻♀️
Jane Austen grew up in a house with a lot of men and boys. Her father operated a boarding school for boys out of their home in Steventon; she also had six brothers. All told, she knew about men. I’m sure she had sparring encounters with many of them. She must have run into more than a few John Thorpes in her day. She tucked the stories and encounters away until she could use them in her writing to brilliant, and in the case of Northanger Abbey, hilarious effect.
Such an interesting video! I remember reading this scene for the first time and intensely experiencing Catherine's discomfort and itching to get away from John Thorpe. I understood her side of the conversation much more the Thorpe's side, so this was very enlightening to put both perspectives together! (I would also love love love an analysis video on the Tenant of Wildfell Hall if you would ever be open to it)
I just found your channel and love your analysis of Jane Austin's characters. Your close reading of the proposal scene gave me a deeper appreciation for this piece of the story. I've always enjoyed that scene, and of course it's funny ... but Austin's brilliant dialogue takes it a step beyond comedy. Thank you for this great series!
I think you should do a full reading of a Jane Austen Novel and add commentary as you go. I would love to hear your insights as I listened to any of her books again.
We would get sidetracked so often, it would be eleventy hours long! But awesome.
Gosh I cannot tell you how much I enjoyed this analysis. I have always struggled with Northanger Abbey. So many other readers have said how much they love this text and I have never really connected with it. Perhaps I just need to understand the nuances of the dialogue. I really understood the confusion between these two characters and actually for the first time recognise the humour in the situation. Please do more on this text. Thank you for this analysis.
I enjoyed that analysis so much it's got me to go back and re-read Northanger Abbey - I read it as a teenager but it made little impression. I'm now a couple of chapters in and, because I now understand the tone Austen is going for, I'm having a great time. Thank you!
Another really useful video which will help my enjoyment when I read Northanger Abbey again. I've just got The Mysteries of Udolpho out of the library which is of course mentioned in Northanger Abbey.
Such a great scene and I love your analysis of it!
Haven't seen it yet, but already love it!
Ha! - Well hopefully you still love it even once you've seen it!
@@DrOctaviaCox be sure I will even more: you are always showing me things in the text I've never noticed before
Your reading and discussion of the exchange between John Thorpe and Catherine Morland brought so much humor into it. Thank you!
I love the Jane Austen series!! Thank you for sharing ❤️
My pleasure Dasere. And thank you for watching.
I just love your analysis of Jane Austin's books ☺️ thank you for you work 🌷
The reference to going to a wedding brings on another, is in reference to an old Irish song "Will I end an old maid in a garet"
Thank you so much for the wonderful video!
I understood Thorpe's play on words in the supposed marriage proposal as another manipulation of him over Catherine, as was Isabella's over the brother.
Delightful analysis. Thank you!
Wow I did not read these passages at all like this 😂 thank you for this breakdown! I love your channel 😭❤️❤️
This doesn’t help John Thorpe (it is only a song ABOUT the saying) but I am reminded of the traditional Irish song ‘Old Maid in the Garrett’ which has a verse: ‘I have often heard it said from my father to my mother, that going to a wedding is the makings of another. If this be so then I’d go without a bidding, oh divine providence won’t you send me to a wedding?’ (Love Northanger Abbey and your videos) 😊
Dr. Cox, thank you. You have made a hilarious novel even more interesting and fun. I’m enjoying the trip through your videos, and hazard to make a suggestion (perhaps unnecessary). What are your ideas of the post-novel lives of JA’s characters, based upon Jane Austen’s letters; her family members’ ideas; the breath and depth of your knowledge of the characters? I believe JA’s brother suggested Elizabeth Bennett’s sisters married, Mary to an associate of her uncle and Lucy to a clergyman.
It’s so funny to see Catherine trying her best to friendzone him and his take away is that she’s totally into him 🤣🤣
Love these videos
Thank you! Much appreciated.
Northanger Abbey is tied with Mansfield Park for my favourites of Jane Austen’s work. It’s so hilarious, even today.
I must have also misinterpreted what John Thorpe was saying because I did not discern a marriage proposal at all from what he was saying to Catherine. He never specifically asked her to marry him! He was rambling on about marriage in reference to his sister. Why would he or she think that this was a proposal? He is such a dishonest fellow that it seemed to me, that if anything, he was trying to trick her into saying something that sounded like an acceptance of a proposal which he could use against her at a later time.
It appears to me that the two of them were having two different conversations. He rambling on about marriage without ever uttering a proposal, while she is simply trying to get rid of him! He is such a bumbling fool if he supposed that was a proposal!
Maybe I see it simply from her perspective. Even so he never actually asked her to marry him. I don’t believe that any woman would interpret that as a marriage proposal.
I love your videos! Would you do a video analyzing Lady Susan? Please? As unvirtuous and mean to her daughter as the main character is I would adore being her friend!
Thank you, that was a fabulous explanation of something that has always puzzled me.
Have you done any commentary on The Tenant of Wildfell Hall. I love that novel. Thank you so much for your analyses. Very insightful.
Very helpful, thank you.
Northanger Abbey is probably my favorite of all Austin's wondrous works. I loved this talk. So funny! I chuckled throughout.
Isn't Thorpe supposed to then ask Catherine's father? If there was a proposal and Catherine was "encouraging" shouldn't Papa be the next person to know?
Hence the visit to Fullerton.
This was such a great analysis! I do think John Thorpe proposed, mainly because he thinks that he did! On a different note, Isabella Thorpe is such a fascinating character for me, I have never quite been able to work out her motivations and why she attaches herself to James Morland!
Maybe same reason as John Thorpe. He's the oldest son and their connection to Allen's who have no heir. Also James and Catherine are nice people who take people at their word. So they are easy for them
The Thorpes both think that the Morlands are way richer than they actually are. She's a gold digger who doesn't realize that James has more of a heart of gold than a bank account of gold.
Jane Austen is brilliant - I like her books so much - Northhanger Abbey is one of my favourites - I could laugh so much about many passages in the book .. ❤❤
I think the song is Old Maid in the Garrett. Maybe the line is going to a wedding is the makings of another. Love your videos.
Thank you! I'm very glad you like them.
Yes, I imagine that the saying itself - given its popularity - probably made its way into several songs. I checked the English Short-Titles Catalogue for the title 'Going to One Wedding Brings on Another' (and variants), and that doesn't seem to be recorded. But I didn't check for lines within songs. It's now clear that I should have made that clearer in the video! Thanks for the suggestion.
Here it is:
czcams.com/video/z8IhFbTfX2o/video.html
@@Quzinqa1122 love that song.
@@oe042011 🎶 Me too! 🎵
22:20 The song might very well be "The Wooing Maid" (Roud 802), a seventeenth-century broadside by Martin Parker.
Ah ha - thanks for the tip!
The more modern version being “Old Maid in the Garret,” if we’re thinking along the same lines. At least that’s what I thought of when reading that passage!
@@MaySwenon Yes, it's the first published version. John's choice of it really emphasises how insensitive he is in general: it's a song about a woman who's desperate to marry _anyone_ - someone sensible would probably not think it a good idea to compare the girl they intended to marry with the "old maid" from the song, but thinking is not John's strong point. :)
I always wonder how Catherine couldn't have noticed what was really going on. I know she is naive but definitely not stupid. Or does she know that he is leading her on but doesn't see the reason because she is so pure? Because the romantic person she is, she of course would not have identified this spiel as a proposal. And she didn't like him so maybe she never expected a proposal? I don't know. I wish I could have stood next to her and yell: God damn it, she refuses! Bye!
Isabella does say to Catherine, as I noted in the video, that "His attentions were such as a child must have noticed" (ch.18). Perhaps we are supposed to agree that Catherine has been childish in the way of male "attentions"? Or perhaps deliberately obtuse? I'm disposed to be charitable towards her, though, and I think that her mind is occupied with other things that are infinitely more important to her than paying attention to John Thorpe - her brother's marriage and her visit to Henry Tilney's home (an abbey no less!). We're told at the end of the conversation that "With such news to communicate, and such a visit to prepare for ... she hurried away", and I interpret this as suggesting that she's been preoccupied with these marvellous thoughts for the duration.
@@DrOctaviaCox Yes you are right. I didn't mean to turn on Catherine. As I said, she is not stupid. I think she is really precious and just needed a friend who exposed Thorpes intentions for her :D And I am pretty sure Thorpe new that she got played by him. He didn't ask her outright because he feared she would say no.
I have always thought Catherine was not really listening to what he said. She just wanted him to go away!
@@dorothywillis1 That might be true! :D That would have been me!
@@dorothywillis1 Yes, I agree. She just wanted him gone and she was also quite preoccupied with her visit with the Tilneys.
This is a tour de force! Thanks!
I'm making it my headcanon that the "going down on one knee" tradition arose precisely because this proposal was so ambiguous. Everyone who read it was like "Well, that was a disaster. What we need is some unambiguous, universal shorthand. The more conspicuous, the better." 😆
Why did Thorpe need help from his sister if Catherine had accepted his proposal?
@Dr Octavia Cox. John Thorpe did not propose. He simply could'nt find the words. He sent his sister to feel Catherine out which has the added advantage of not committing himself! I have a great inference for you on how MR Morland deliberately interferes in James and Catherine's respective engagements. More importantly I have some paid work for you. I need an email address where I can send it to?
He does ask Isabella to "urge his suit", which does suggest that he considers himself to be a 'suitor'. The OED defines "suit" as "Behaviour by a man intended to persuade a woman to marry him; the action of seeking a woman's hand in marriage; courtship". If he were just sounding out the situation, then he'd be more likely to ask Isabella to probe Catherine more gently about possibly marrying him (it seems to me). And while I'm on Isabella's comments, re "and now he wants me to ... say all manner of pretty things to you" - it's as if John Thorpe (misogynistically?) thinks he can farm off the saying "of pretty things" to the little ladies.
And thank you very much for the offer, but I'm not looking for any additional work at the moment.
@@DrOctaviaCox Thank you very much for responding. John Mullan, Janine Barchas, Devoney Looser and Paula Byrne have all worked with me. Some on several occasions and are all paid generous honorariums. I request you hear me out. Please send your email address to my twitter account @MarkTeltscher1
Great video! I'm curious whether this indirect kind of proposal was meant to save Thorpe's face in case of a refusal, or would people have often phrased proposals in such a roundabout way? Or was Austen just playing it up for comedy?
Based on other contemporary novels, almost certainly playing it up for laughs. There are some hilariously and some tragically bad proposals in Jane Austen's works, and other novels from around the same time, but this is the only one I've read where the woman leaves the encounter not even knowing that the man proposed to her.
@@susand2729 Thanks, Susan!
Do these illustrations come from particular editions of the novels?
"And to marry for money I think the wickedest thing in existence." Your analysis made me realize why General Tilney is actually the gothic hero he is: while John Thorpe is a young foolish man who acts on his impulses (I don't think he had a plan of setting a trap here; I think it was all his vanity and self-aggrandizing notions), General Tilney acts with purpose. He is the gothic hero who intentionally traps an alleged young heiress in his abbey to make her marry his son. Had he still been assured that she is a rich heiress, it is impossible to say how he would've acted. (For example, would he have tried to make her stay indefinite?)
This scene is especially funny because John is too self involved to realise she wants nothing to do with him and is only being polite, and Catherine is too naive and modest to realise he had an interest in her. I'm sure Austen's other heroines (Lizzie Bennet and Anne, at least) would have noticed what John's intentions were.
Georgette Heyer's characters (in her Regency novels) reveal their characters beautifully in their manner of speech.
If the proposal doesn't include a version of the words "will you marry me" or "will you consent to be my wife" then it's not a proposal. Thorpe suggests that he and Catherine 'try the truth of this same old song' but the song is about GOING to a wedding, not actually getting married. Since they will both attend Isabella's wedding as relatives of the bride and groom, of course Catherine doesn't read it as a proposal of marriage, just a suggestion that they might sing the song.