wax not last
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- čas přidán 3. 06. 2024
- Is you wax treatment not lasting your ride event? what are the early warning signs your treatment is giving out, and what are your options.
(also ceramic speed wet conditions test update + other fun updates!)
00:00 - Intro
00:20 - Testing update
09:35 - Next tests
13:20 - Wax not lasting?
30:20 - Wet....
34:10 - Options
48:05 - Question of the week - Sport
Adam’s ability to turn a 15 minute video into nearly an hour is unbeatable
It’s not ideal
I bet he is fighting himself not to go 3h on and on ... Imagine what's going on in bar after few tong openers
primarily I think this is due to very loose scripting... I think it's better to script with a bullet point list, because it results in a more natural conversational feel, but if it's not fleshed out enough, then you have to think too much about what you're going to say next and repeat a lot. if he had a separate person editing, he could film it in shorter more to the point clips based on the main bullet points. but he's only one guy trying to do this in whatever time he has alotted, which puts a limit on how much time he has to script, film, and edit. ironically it's the same thing that happens to most of us when it comes to maintaining a chain 🤣 you don't have the time or staffing to do it properly, so what you end up with is an inefficient result.😖
Need to be able to download the transcript and have Microsoft Copilot or ChatGPT summarize it :😂
I listen to him at 1.75 speed because he speaks clearly.
I personally switched to Effetto Mariposa Flowerpower wax (upon seeing its excellent performance on ZFC). So far it really has lasted around 500 to 600km (usually dry road cycling), which also is long enough for any cycling event I ever try to do. The small bottle allows for a simple top up in between days, for multiday events. Once around 1000km has been reached on the chain, I switch to the second chain, while the first dirty chain gets cleaned using the Pickle Glass/Mason Jar method with solvents.
I'd like to thank the ZFC team for providing this great information for free!
@CFAuugh Can you please tell me what cleaning solvent(s) you use ? The official cleaning product is Allpine Extra. If you've used something else and it works it would be useful to know.
Since your chain is waxed it can be cleaned with hot water
@@wrwicky As far as I know this is still to be determined . Please read the top of page 25 of ZFC's ...
Test 27 - Effetto Mariposa Flower Power in the Lubricant testing tab.
The wax is derived from Sunflowers and is not paraffin based. If you use it ? and boiling water will clean it ? then that would be good to know. The Allpine Extra contains pine oil ( an organic solvent ) . There could be commercial interests at play in this being promoted or it may actually be needed ?
Thanks for the discussion on wax temperature! I usually pull the chain out at around 90°, and was starting to worry about all the people out there recommending keeping it in until it "skins up".
Thank you for the helpful information, you hit the nail on the head. Any updates on the chain checker from Abbey Tools?
Great stuff as usual, Adam. Very glad you addressed the removal temperature again. I know you've made your opinion clear in other videos and it's in the Waxing FAQ but it was good to hear one more time after watching the most recent Silca video. If you haven't already, it might be a good thing for the GCN folks to know your opinion on it. They seem to be pretty open to this information these days. Have a great weekend!
GCN are paid by Silca. They may pass the message on, but Silca is the 'gatekeeper'. Silca seem to want closure on this issue and currently are sticking to the line that 90°C is too hot. If they are wrong, it is now difficult for them to say otherwise without some reputational damage ?
I do like Silca and think they are trying to improve cycling and be at the leading edge of product development. I'm surprised they didn't give the chain waxing method validation work to ZFC or at least publicly publish their results. Probably would have cost them a similar amount to doing it 'in house' , assuming they did that ?
Nice video and presentation.
Page 20:00 +
Chain wear indications?
There are two tests. 1. Chain stretch - use a chain gauge. 2. Chain lateral wear, side wards free play.
Test 2. Method:- lay chain flat side ways at a specific distance (1m?) off the table edge. Use a straight edge and a ruler to measure the vertical drop from horizontal of a reference1 chain that just failed test 1. Repeat test 2 with a new chain the result is reference2.
Thanks for getting back to me! 👍
What have you seen from wear rates on force axs chain with road 1x (+ wax) ? Best to run 1x with smallest cassette then to help wax last longer? Force axs 1x with 50-54 chainrings paired to 10:33/36t cassettes?
I would be very interested to hear what the best lubricant is for outright speed for indoor track racing. Also the best single speed 1/8" chain - would it be Dura Ace as per their 11sp chain?
Indoor track racing would benefit from your attention as marginal gains can make a real difference in this discipline.
Thanks for the video! A question about breaking the wax bond: would it be ok to break the wax by wiggling the chain for a minute after lifting it up from the waxing pot? Instead of letting the wax to stiffen up completely before breaking the wax bond on each link. I tried this method once, seemed to work nicely but I'm unsure if that would have negative impact on the result. And also: what about wiping the chain when it still hot with a towel to get rid of excess wax on the outer surfaces (where no lubrication is needed) - is there some downsides to that?
I just started waxing for the first time this week and have put in 2 indoor trainer rides so far. I used MSW hot wax and prepped and waxed 2 new never used chains exactly according the the MSW instructions. One was a KMC X10.93 and the other a YBN SLA 101. Admittedly the KMC had been sitting in a thick plastic bag for a number of years as I never got around to using it till now. I'm going to use quick links with both, a Connex with the KMC and a YBN with the YBN, both also degreased and waxed.
Both were to be used on my 20 year old Campy Centaur 10 speed road bike with a triple crankset, and until it warms up a bit more outside it'll be strictly for indoor use on a Wahoo Core trainer mostly using Zwift with their Play controllers so I can use their virtual shifting capability so no mechanical shifting. I run it on a 42-16 gear combo and Zwift figures out the rest.
Anyway, after just 3 rides, of 10, 11 and 15 miles, the KMC, which I decided to run first, is starting to make some noise, the kind associated with a chain whose lube is starting to dry out. Nothing horrible, but it's noticeable. Now, it could be that I messed up the degreasing or waxing process, but I don't think so. Or, perhaps, it's supposed to make this sort of noise. More likely, though, my guess is that XFC's observation that KMC chains tend to not take wax well is the cause.
I'm going to swap it out for the YBN to see if the same thing happens, and if it doesn't then I'll know that it's likely the KMC's fault, since I degreased and waxed them together. If it recurs then I'll know that I messed something up in either the prep or waxing stage.
Do mind that different chain manufacturers use different factory grease on the chains. If you degreased both chains equally, it may be that one of em needed just one-two more rounds of degreasing to match the other one. I can't recall the source by memory. Just degrease the one you think doesn't perform again and rewax it. It may do the trick.
I use Silca hot melt. Even after I do a boiling water rinse before re-waxing, the chain seems to have a very thin layer of wax left. So I feel like the wax is sticking to the chain so well, that it shouldn't matter if I remove the chain from the wax pot at 75 °C or 90 °C. It will have enough wax in it in both cases. No scientific study behind this, only my hunch :)
I sense the same with Silca hot melt. When cleaning my chain with boiling water before a re-wax there seems to be a layer of wax that remains between the pins & roller’s… a good thing 👍
Also use Silca and really happy with. Agree with your re-waxing comments.
Also have had good luck with Silica SS. I dip about every 200mi. Will sometimes use the drip in between but don’t feel like it lasts but 20 mi or so.
I dip approx every 300-350km. I also occasionally use the SSS drip wax. I find it works so much better & last longer if you massage/work it into each roller with your fingers. It can be a little messy but does get right in & lasts similar distances .. just a thought 👍
I just started waxing using Silca Secret stuff and about to look at rewaxing. So to confirm is it necessary to rinse in boiling water or metho or just wipe any excess off with a rag??
I have a buddy using a heat gun after apply UFO Dripwax such that all the wax disappears into the links (ie, no residual white wax). He's convinced this supercoats the links and gets it to submersive level longevity. Would love to hear ZFC's take on this application process enhancement.
I've been doing the same thing for the past couple years (though I'm using some other drip wax) and even lube my new chains this way instead of immersive first application suggested by the vendor. So far all chains (9-speed YBN, 11-speed Dura Ace, 12-speed XTR) lubed this way have passed 2500 km with 0.25% or less wear measured with digital calipers and their relube interval are about 500 km at dry, road-riding condition, so it seems that they are holding fine. I think it does improve lube penetration, saves lots of lubricant (just one drop per roller) compared to drip-and-back-peddling treatment, with much less wax flakes and keeps chain stays clean. It is a bit time consuming though. Somehow the heat-blowing air feels really hot (it is supposed to melt solder) that makes me wonder at what temperature it will damage the lubricant. I'm also keen to know how Adam's would comment on this.
I use a food torch but not so direct. Just enough to drop in the rollers. I do agree on a drop per roller. I felt 2 drops and it would drip on the floor.
@@WillEDC I use a heat gun with small nozzle and it has an additional benefit that I can use the nozzle to poke and roll the rollers while blowing hot air, to help introduce lubricant through gaps inside. Or so I think.
Personally i wouldnt. UFO drip all conditions doesnt really have any penetration issues if applied at normal room temps, so heat is not needed to ensure proper penetration. I gather what you are meaning tho is that wax still sitting on the outside from application is going inside for a better layering in where its needed, which is feasible.
However, wax emulsion lubricants are a fair bit more delicate than immersive waxes, and heat guns get things very hot, very quickly. It would be VERY easy to spot overheat the lubricant and damage / destroy waxes lubricity.
It is a little more faff re separate steps, but always the best way to increase wax drip treatment lifespan has been to double coat. So apply generous coating, thoroughly work in, thoroughly wipe excess, allow set time, then repeat.
However - this is really normally only needed if one wants to ensure best longevity for a long event etc. If its just normal training, all up it just easier to spend 20 secs adding a top up coating more frequently than to faff with stuff like this to increase treatment lifespan by x unknown %. So unless one is finding lubricant treatment giving out before normal weekend longer ride etc - just apply normally, ride, and top up more frequently vs faffing with heating (and potentially over heating).
Hi, if I apply Synergetic to a waxed chain can that chain be continued to be used with Synergetic as a wet lube chain? Would the wear rates be similar in this hybrid case to a Synergetic lubed fresh chain?
Hey John yes that all works great. Many who are looking to just run a top wet lube will still get a pre prepped wax chain so they dont have to faff with removing factory grease. Just run the wax treatment for approx 300km - the amount of wax left is then very small, apply your wet lube and then just continue on and all is grand
Anyway you could test the difference when pulling out chain at 90c and the other when it skins up on the surface? That way we would know the most optimum way to wax the chain..
So, considering the straightness of the chain line being beneficial for long-lasting quiet and efficient wax lubrication, a triple chain-ring in front is supposed to be a significantly better option for long climbing events compared to 1-by or 2-by systems, am I correct?
It may help re keeping chain line better and thus treatment not suffering the issue discussed here for longer, however "overall" beneficial in most cases i would say not. 1) a triple is a lot of faff. A lot. There is so much cross over of same / similar gear ratio's - one is unlikely to be riding in the most efficient gearing for that desired ratio all the time. Remember a smaller chainring size = more chain tension for a given power, and more articulation at chain ring, and you will be in a smaller cog for the ratio desired if in a smaller ring = more articulation there as well - so there are 3 things that add up to give greater losses in a given ratio that generally make smaller ring / smaller cog less efficient than larger. Yes there is a point where chain line angle for larger can push this in smaller favour - but this is much much less often in general.
Ie - many triples might have as small as a 22t smallest ring. That is going to be in general a very inefficient ring. As long as ones chain line is not too extreme, and lubrication on side surfaces not all gone - running a 34 is going to be more efficient pretty much all the time.
Overall the number of times due to chain line angle and conditions one finds themselves with treatment going dry - overall this should be very rare, and in many cases - pre planned for. This is going to be overall much better most of the time than running a triple with all the extra faff, extra weight, and running generally smaller ring and cog 99% of the time for a given desired ratio which is less efficient than larger ring / cogs.
I love waxing and idea behind it. But for wet and hard, not much beat bathing chain in gear oil night before, then afterwards just clean it, not much protects better from rust and water, assuming conditions are bad. Wax is perfect for dry and dusty.
Adam something you could test? Bathing in gear oil every 200km or so in dry conditions? I know problem arise with dirt contamination.
Hi! sort of maybe... i have plans to do a chain maintenance testing later this year hopefully, and something like that could be an option. Generally such a path - i worry it is still pretty faffy. Ie submersion wet lube - its relatively mess re excess - one can set up to have it drip back in to bath, but then there is still a lot on the chain. One can wipe excess - then goes through a lot of cloths. One needs gloves to install and remove as its a mess. Cleaning? what is one using to clean? how much do they use? cost? how do they dispose of that?
I just cant see that this is faster or easier than say wax on weekend, re apply something like tru tension tungsten all weather when back home ready for the next day, continue that for the week, and either just re wax to reset on weekend, or bonus points - 2 or 3 x boiling water flush rinses, blow dry 2 mins with hair dryer, re wax.
No handling messy chain, no need for gloves, wiping excess, solvent cleans etc etc. I just cant see how a wet lube approach like that is easier than the hybrid wax drip + immersive wax approach.
Have you compared standard Parrafin wax to compare against the expensive options yet?
Compared in czcams.com/video/BelnkR7djXk/video.html
Great information
I carry a second chain, then after whatever km, I do a quick clean (hot water) on the dirty one, and then put on the "drip wax lube" put it in a plastic ziplock and keep it warm until I need so the wax has a chance to get into the pins...:)
I think what would be really useful, if you could comment and maybe record short clips of different sounds at different stages of wax degradation. You referred to chains “sounding bad” many times, but sounding bad can mean different things to different people. Is rattly sound bad, or is it squeaky dry sound that is bad?
My experience is that waxed chains (eg Silca waxed), including professionally prepped, start rattling after about 2-3 hours on the trainer. Basically, as soon as most of the wax is pushed out of the roller, it starts rattling, because there is no surface tension to stick the roller to other surfaces. Is it still lubricating? Idk, probably, but it sure “sounds bad”.
could potentially try but wouldnt be as easy to do for clear examples i dont think without very good mic and recording set up. But i will ponder. Your treatment should be lasting longer than that, and rattling is hard to get to unless there is a lot wear and play. Wax only gets "pushed out" initially which is excess. Coating left is thin, but will last for a good stint if all is going as it should be (correct bond etc). Once the thin coating is left, it needs to wear off. On inside of roller to inner link shoulders - this should be hundreds of kms. In dusty conditions the wax coating can wear off the sides of the rollers etc earlier than deeper inside chain, giving the distinctive dry sound and feel in climbing gears well before wax deeper in the chain (ie inside of roller bore) is wearing out.
Rollers rattling is pretty tricky to get to - it can be done on a perfectly strip cleaned chain and bouncing up and down in your hand, but if chain as any lubrication coating at all - getting very very light rollers to have sufficient play and movement to rattle is tricky indeed. The early warning signal should be feeling a bit of vibration through pedals and a distinct "zzzz, zzzz, zzzzz, zzzzz" sound on pedalling during power phase. If rollers are rattling i would be concerned of a larger issue - ie a lot of roller wear, wax not bonding well etc to allow much greater than normal play and movement
Are you going to be at Sea Otter?
I am doing a 250 mile gravel race with 25k climbing in 10 days. I am putting on a new XX1 eagle chain from Silca with their hot wax before the race. Are you suggesting not to carry the Silca super secret to re-lube as that won't have time to set up, but to apply something like a liquid/oil chain lube like their Synergetic as opposed to the Super Secret?
Hey stewart - sorry is that multi day event or single day event?
@@zerofrictioncycling992 FKT, so hopefully all in one straight push (20ish hours)
@@stewbomb5 ah cool, yeah just start waxed then throw on some synergetic when chain starts to sound / feel dry. Sort out reset chain after, but yeah for such events you really need to move to a top wet lube even for offroad
Thanks!
A great video as always! I am a dedicated user of Silca Hot Melt & Silca Super Secret for top-off treatments between full a full re-wax, typically 2 top-offs, then a full re-wax. I have 2 chains that I rotate through using this system....works perfect....thanks for your help in educating me on getting to this system!
My only consideration for a change would be to use a 3rd chain for winter riding indoors. I live in the US (Midwest) and it can be that I will be on the indoor trainer from November - February. I have considered using a 3rd chain where I use a traditional lube (Silca Synergetic) vs. the wax treatments. My reason for doing this would be 1) generally very clean indoor riding environment, 2) very long-lasting treatment life from Synergetic (fewer times to re-apply) and not having to remove the chain for a full re-wax treatment. The other option would be to use just the Super Secret drip lube in the winter. I realize that given the overall quality of all of the options, there is probably not a 'wrong' decision to be made here.
Looking at implementing the same wax process. What is your interval between top off treatments? I realize it is condition dependent. I live in the same climate as the Midwest.
@@billyshakespeare17 I am very likely an 'over waxer' and probably apply too much. I will generally go 150-200 miles between top-off treatments. I tend not to ride in harsh conditions (rain, etc.) so I generally don't have to account for that. I am pretty diligent about doing a wipe-down of my bike/chain after each ride to keep things clean. I use the Silca gear wipes for that. If I do a good job, I will also do a full clean when I do the chain swap while I have the chain off. None of that is really hard, you just have to take a few minutes for the process.
Thanks Shawn! and yes correct if on a top lubricant choice there is not really a wrong decision (outside of in most cases wet lube and offroad riding). For indoor if its a dedicated indoor bike then a very long lasting wet lube can be a great option for sure, but if its going to have wax chain go back on for outdoor riding once winter over, that will mean a drivetrain clean up for wax chain to go on, something that would not be needed if you stay on a top wax drip. SS drip is good, but it is short treatment lifespan overall - UFO Drip all conditions is a longer lasting. They also have an indoor specifc lubricant which i havent tried yet but will be doing that this winter coming.
Thanks
Speaking of not lasting. I’m using Silca Hot was on my road bike, no issues, on my mountain bike my Shimano XTR 2 by, drive train gets really noisy after about 12 to 15 miles when it’s dry and dusty. I’m in southern Ca. I use the Silca stripper, then wax. I top off after every ride, by wiping with the chain w a cloth and applying Silca wet Super Secret the night before riding. The chain is noisy in the climbing gears like the two biggest cogs. I pour boiling water on the chain in a dish before re waxing. I don’t know what else to do. Anything I’m missing? Thanks.
Oil
So, at extreme chain line angles, in dusty environments, do wax lubricants such as Squirt or Smoove do any better at not abrading off and remaining in the chain? Also, have you done any of your complete tests of a top wet lube like Synergetic vs immersive wax on an extreme angle like 32 tooth ring to 52 tooth sram eagle drivetrain? I would be curious how much long steep climbs increase the benefit of a top wet lube over an immersive wax longevity wise.
And when I say complete test, I mean where you do all your testing blocks of dry, wet, and extreme conditions.
Good questions - alas only anecdotal information really as not control tested these scenario's - i'm not currently set up to do that testing - maybe one day, but core test work is oh so busy all the time.
Squirt and smoove - on the one side they have a potentially longer lasting wax base being - we believe - an oilier wax, so less likely to be abraded off as quickly as a refined solid wax from the sides of those parts. On the other side, it would still get really thin after some time, and be mixed with a lot of abrasive stuff.
However anecdotally i have heard that a well prepped smoove chain holds up well in long harsh conditions - wet or dry. Squirt may be similar, but ZFC doesnt sell squirt at this time (we do sell smoove) so i havent got a customer base feeding back for squirt.
I need to put smoove through the new Single application longevity protocol, i just havent got to re testing it since the new test change, but i need to. In ceramic speeds own testing for developing their wet conditions lubricant, they advised smoove was the only one they tested that wasnt quickly washed out. And its fast. So it is overall a solid product just more faff re penetration, and a tough maintenance clean to reset (and then get past penetration issues). But prepping a chain specifically for a long hard ride - Smoove should hold up extremely well and may outlast the top immersive waxes - but i will need more people doing long harsh dusty rides to pit Immersive wax chain and then a smoove or squirt prepped chain against each other.
If its road - the IM Wax vs top wet lube like synergetic - all up longevity should be relative to normal riding. Without a lot of dust getting in there to abrade wax off those parts, the wax will hold up for a very long time, and so if re waxing at normal recommended intervals - one wont have any issue with immersive wax treatment lifespans on any parts of the chain. Synergetic is very long lasting so may be able to go longer stints before re lube, but again unless focus on very long event - such things are not of too much importance when one is able to just re wax / re lube and good length intervals in normal riding / training.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Hi Adam! Thank you for sharing your knowledge with the community.
I recently started using Effetto Marioposa Flowerpower wax with a very budget 3x8 drivetrain (all new including KMC X8 chain) and I feel my chain doesn't stay quiet for very long. Is it possible that Flowerpower doesn't play well with looser tolerances of 8-speed chain? Or is it more likely an issue with chain preparation or wax application? I've seen you have some data on 8-speed chain tensile strength, but have you done any lubricant testing with such chains?
@@stefankrzeminski Hey stefan! not too much - i wear tested a shimano 8spd and it was pretty bad - 8spd chains dont really have any wear protection on them and likely a lower grade of steel vs quality 11spd etc.
It could just want to build up a little more wax inside so may want to reapply early first few applications (ensure wipe excess thoroughly post application and work in). Many wax drips do "layer up" - and so sometimes re applying frequently to begin with can help and then more normal expected treatment lifespans should occur.
my local sram seller sell each quick link chainlink" for 15 $.... Eevery time i wax the chain i get manhandled by their dealer basically. Is there a way to reuse and or 3rd party links available?
Do you think that EBIKE with 85NM and somewhat decent FTP would mean a lot shorter re wax cycle needs?
thanks!!!
wow thats taking some liberties! i would shop online for links - they should be circa $29.90 for a pack of 4.
yes treatment lifespan for all lubricants is reduced the higher the power - so with non re useable links and e-bike - you for sure want to use a compatible wax drip in between. So wax, re lube next approx 5x with something like UFO drip all conditions which has decent longevity, then re wax to re set any contamination starting to build and use a new link. The wear savings still with that combo approach will WAY cover the cost of links like that vs just drip lubricant only wear.
If I understood you correctly - it isn't worth running a waxed chain for multi-day ultras, say 5 days of 20 hours? At most I might have 6 hours of sleep and breakfast to allow any wax drip to set.
And to push this - even multi week bikepacking of 10hrs/day - unless I completely spend a rest day off the bike, I'm thinking the max time off is 12 hours for wax to set, and this again might not be enough
Flower Power Wax from Effetto Mariposa only needs 1-2h in my experience@@jameswong391
Just use synergetic by Silca
@@jameswong391 i think those 8hours sleep is enough if you add lube as soon as you stop. The real Problem is wet days. Or wet nights, your drip will certanily not set when the bike is standing in the rain :) But if you can expect a dry climate with hot nights it could work. I only did 9 days with a single wet day and the chain didnt feel dry in the end. In my case it was scandinavia so the sun helped setting almost all oft the night...
So for those XCM races 100km with lots of climbing any reason you can't start with a freshly immersion waxed chain and top up with wet lube at the half way point (synergetic) with the knowledge that a deep clean will be required before rewaxing?
No not at all as long as one is going to do the deep clean after. But most times an immersive wax should last 100km - however some harsher events it may start to struggle on the sides of those parts as discussed in this vid, in which case throwing on some synergetic if can do nice and quick and zoom out would be great to get to end of event.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 How would you do a deep clean in this case ? Maybe a couple of boiling flush cleans followed immediately by UFO drivetrain cleaner ?
I'm not sure you can use Silca drivetrain cleaner as some Synergetic may be protected by wax ?
@@dawn_rider It can be a bit of faff mixing wet lube and wax thats for sure - all up its generally more steps to properly reset than just one or the other. Hot water melts bulk of wax off, but doesnt do a lot to dissolve off oil. Most solvents dissolve oil easily, but don't really work on wax. The wax to a degree can be contaminated by the oil - so a bit of combo approach is safer for a proper reset vs just one or the other.
Silca stripper deliberately doest work on wax so it wont clean any wax thats been mixed with oil that well. DT clean really does a great job on both, but its expensive to use either to clean a dirty chain from start to finish, vs getting bulk of the crap out with cheaper methods.
Personally i would do few quick turps baths to get rid of bulk of wet lube - whatever is just left in there will be flushed out straight away with whatever crap its picked up. Have the kettle boiling whilst doing that and follow up with a couple hot water baths to melt of any bulk wax left in there.
if it is a training chain, i would then just dry, 1 x alcohol bath, dry - re wax.
if its race chain, i want a perfect reset before going back into race wax pot. So after bulk contamination removal via turps and boiling water and dry - then i would do a 10 min bath in DT clean which will sort out whatever is left. Boiling water rinse, dry - then its ready for re wax (dont need alcohol rinse post DT clean).
Sounds like a lot - but its pretty much 10 mins work for a training chain, another approx 10 to perfectly reset a race chain ready for race wax pot.
And it is generally not something one has to worry about faffing with regularly - not many will be frequently doing events or rides that exceed wax treatment lifespan such they need to top off with wet lube, and so post the rare occasions one does - then that bit of time to reset again after - shouldnt be too much of a hassle.
but i should probs put an addendum on one of the guides re resetting a wax + wet lube chain as it is a big of double step re approach.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 There are other potentially difficult to deep clean products such as Smoove and EM Flowerpower ? The ' Allpine Extra ' like UFO cleaner is not cheap which is why I am looking for effective alternatives. Currently with Smoove, I can't find in their FAQ's a product for removing it. It looks like Smooves drivetrain cleaner is for FG removal only ? At least Wend wax has a cleaner 'Wend wax off' should anyone be unwise enough to try it ! The Wend website says it "cuts through wax, oil, and dirt leaving your chain sparkling". If it doesn't work well for a deep clean then a strategy to get rid of it will be needed.
BTW on the drop down list for the Instructions tab on your website, by default I can't see / select all the items in the list. You can see them all by reducing the font size. I have tried this on 3 different browsers with the same result. If you try to replicate this using a higher resolution screen than my 1920x1080 all the items will likely show up. If you increase the browser font size by pressing Control and + together a few times and then try it, you will see what I see. Maybe it's an issue with Wordpress which your site uses ? You'll have to ask Jill.
I use my bike 90% on a turbo trainer in ERG mode... For best chain life I'm assuming I should use small chainring, and cog at rear that allows straightest chain line?
Straight chain yes, but a bigger ring is more efficient, no? Noisier though, so on my trainer I do 90pc of my time in the small ring.
Hey neil! ah was just replying to your email :) Actually normally big ring will be longer life as less chain tension load for a given power. if its on a high chain line angle for your erg mode work - then sure small ring overall better as its just not as groovy to ride with high chain line angle all the time, but if you can be in cog 3 or smaller most of the time - i would be big ring for sure. If you have to go up to the two largest cogs for long-ish stints then yep small ring.
@@pierrex3226possibly a 50/50 toss up... The larger chain ring means chain is bending/straightening less each time it travels around the chain ring, but the larger ring holds on to the ring for a greater proportion of the chain line 21:10
I think it's a trade off. I believe the big ring means less articulation and therefore less wear. However I always use the small ring as it gives less fluctuations in power readings. Dunno why this is the case but my Neo recommends the small ring.
@@frenzalrhomb1 big ring spreads load over more chain links. If you pair is with a larger cassette cog this happens twice. The load applied to each roller/pin is therefore quite a bit lower if you are using the same gear ratio but with bigger gears! Also, articulation is reduced which further improves chain wear and lubrication lifetime.
My Kickr core works fine with a 52t/20t combo for erg mode
The longer muddy gravel events should really allow you to stash a freshly waxed chain at a pit stop (I assume carrying a spare chain with you is hurting you more than it benefits).
I did that in a 300 km event last summer. On the day it was bone dry so I didn't use it.
I think for some events there is no rule against such - ie if you can organise to have a fresh bottle of water and food, i dont think there is anything stopping you from having a spare chain there.
For some events carrying would not be net negative if conditions are poor. A chain is only 250 grams ish, so thats going be basically 1/4 to 1/2 a watt even on a circa 10% incline, and next to nothing on lesser grades / flat. However if you have been through a bunch of mud and now have a chain thats lost 5w efficiency - well thats with you from then on and just getting worse.
Ie just think how many watts for just hundreds of km's riders would have saved post the peanut butter section at unbound last year that was very early in the event. People were submerging bikes in big puddles etc to try to flush clean chain. It is fooked after that, its just a ton of precious watts - especially when knackered - going in to big loss in hardest working component, for the benefit of wearing through that component at fastest possible rate. The time difference for swapping to a fresh chain at first aid stop after that section by the end would have been quite a lot of minutes.
So, 1x drivetrains are fundamentally less efficient, right? Because on a 2x setup you can engineer to avoid using your most extreme cogs most/all of the time, which you can't do on a 1x.
Yes. Weight difference is one of the factors to consider, and 1x setups are quite a bit lighter. In my case my 1x set-up is about 400g lighter, half of which is due to the incredibly heavy SRAM spider/chainring combo. That 400g however at best amounts to approximately 3W, similar to chainline angle losses on a well-lubricated chain.
In my case, the AXS front derailleur limits rear tyre size to 45 mm instead of 55 mm which is a big efficiency loss, but that situation is different for every situation/bike/groupset
@@woutervanderdoes5163 I don't think claiming 3W of saving from 400g is reasonable. Idk in what conditions that would be true. Maybe a 1x drivetrain is more aero but the rear cog really isn't.
@@miguidieu06 3W from 400g is a steep climb
From a purely mechanical efficiency standpoint re chain - yes, but there can be other factors for some cycling disciplines where 1x is just flat out the better option. Ie if i only raced cx - my cx / gravel bike its a no brainer that is 1x. You dont need massive range, and you have enough to do already you dont want to add front shifting. But if i only raced gravel, the most efficient way to get the desired range is 2x. As i do both, i keep it 1x and just put up with bigger gear jumps and bit less outright drivetrain efficiency for gravel racing. Mtb is really all 1x, again you just have too much to do with changing gears at the back, suspension lock out, dropper post - front shifting died a long time ago.
But its mostly a dead duck for road as the efficiency compromise is too great - with the exception that some flatter TT courses 1x is popular. Classifieds hub may make 1x road / tt more common place in future, but that system has a few barriers to overcome yet.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 very valid points around disciplines indeed. I only do road and gravel, wasn't even thinking about CX / MTB.
1st attempt at an imersive waxed chain with Rex BD 12-1 on my MTB a few days ago, brilliant to start with then a ton of mud about halfway through the hour and a half ride, didn't sound nice when muddy. But what muddy chain does? In the last 20 min of the ride, everything dried out and the chain felt and sounded great again. Looking at the chain it was pretty clean, the bike was filthy. Quick hose off and some UFO All conditions, ready for the next ride, will see how that goes for me. If it is no good on the next ride I will throw another prewaxed chain on. Pretty impressed with how well it performed on the first go considering how muddy it was.
Any rust on your quick link now?
If you're willing to share, where are you traveling in the states? Are you bringing a bike?
Ah for sure - im not that private a person hahahaha - Starting off with just doing disney world and universal studios in Orlando for first week and a bit joining in with one of ryders school friends doing the same, then doing the kennedy space center as you cant miss that, dashing up to washington dc for a few days to do the smithsonians, then down to vegas for a show at the sphere, and using vegas as base for day tour of hoover day, and a two day tour of grand canyon. Final day to play in vegas after that before heading home - all adds up to pretty much 3 weeks with the travel.
So no bike on this trip - i have a feeling i will have to hit the exercise bikes / eliptical at hotel gyms which will be really, really not the same - but if i dont when i get back my cycling friends will tear me a new one first few weeks back out.... :)
@@zerofrictioncycling992 sounds amazing. Hope it's a great trip. I'm in the DC area and would have loved to show you some of our local riding, but sounds like you'll have your plate full.
@@user-rp2fe4rk4i yep aside from the long plane trips and airports - it should be epic ( i hate long flights and airports...... i cant sleep on planes, at all, so it just hours of numbing sore arse, sore back, get too tired to read, to watch , to play games - its just uncomfortable zombie land for hours that feel like weeks.....). Really hoping for no cancelled flights, no badly delayed flights, no travelling on boeing aircraft (that will be difficult) etc - and then will survive the travel and yeehaa for all the rest!
If wax on chain doesn’t last what last?
Wax is cleaner, oil and grease can be dirty.
I weigh 110kg full rider weight and do enduro riding here I do climbs of about 400m at a time. I am running a 52t eagle cassette and a 30t chainring. Is it then fine if I am then only getting like 50km to 100km per hot wax? This is South Africa and, in the summer, so it is quite dusty. Would it then be smart to use a combination of my drip wax like Smoove with my graphite wax?
Hey Adriaan! 50km is on the short side, 100km is not unusual for lots of climbing, generally high power and offroad dust. What wax are you using at the moment? Generally Smoove and immersive waxes are not a perfect match as smoove uses quite a different wax base, but it is quite long lasting and stays relatively clean if not over applied, so it might work alright as your in between wax lube
Adrian I'm having good results topping up with Tru-Tension Tungsten All Weather Lube. Its not expensive and is claimed to dry in 5 to 10 min (although I havent tested the dry time) so worth a try!
@@kevincrowley9873 awesome, thanks
@@zerofrictioncycling992 For now I am using a wax one of my friends gave me. Not too sure what it is. I'll probably switch over to Silica hot melt soon then with their drip lube as well. How is Effetto Mariposa Flower power with hot waxing?
Call my cynical but can't help but think that the lower temp chain removal recommendation is driven by increased sales via wax pot consumption rate 😄
I have tried both methods, and I feel that the extra coat of wax left by the "cool removal" method makes the drivetrain more silent when shifting (but also messier, as Adam says in this video). Wax on the outside of the plates may reduce friction between the faces of cogs and chain. Josh Poertner also recommends shifting across the cassette when applying Silca Super Secret, which offers a similar audible benefit. I think he likes silent drivetrains and may think it is easier for people to adopt waxing if shifts are smoother and less noisy. I prefer a cleaner drive train for my road bike and a smoother one for my MTB. It is good to have both options :)
Much chattering of a normally lubbed chain comes from interfacing the puĺley wheels. A nice narrow-wide tooth, ball bearing pulley wheel helps.
@@dmallo I think your right about Josh and silent drivetrains. He said it again 6 days after your above comment czcams.com/video/Vot15ro-fcE/video.html . If he is 'cool immersive waxing' because of noise I've never noticed him saying it. Good bit of lateral thinking on your part though !
When I started using UFO clean as a prep my chain waxes stared lasting longer and I got a better result.
Is this a wax with oil?
is WHAT "a wax with oil"? cameras only work in one direction, he can't see what you're holding up
@@better.better you can put to drip on wax a little bit of oil. And maybe CS did that.
About the target consumer for ceramic wet conditions: maybe someone living in an area with a strong rain sesaon?
sort of yes, but sort of no. Its is really more for getting through a long wet ride than anything else. ALL lubricants after a decent wet ride, really one should be re setting contamination. if not post that ride, then as soon as practical afterwards. water brings a lot of crap in, and it isnt going anywhere unless you remove it, so no matter what you run, it will be pretty high friction and wear pretty quickly. So then if its frequent wet work, it becomes what is the easiest to frequently reset. this is not easy to reset.
By the way there is a product known as fender or mud guard we can consider.
These videos need an old-fashioned intermission. My lord.
I know right!! Sorry, i am terrible. You do know though you can do that. I listen to mostly long form you tube vids so it can take a lot of intermissions to get through an episode, which i can do cos im like in control of intermissions! ;)
but i know this one was particularly rambled - even as i was talking i was like fook me, but then i just had no time to try re recording that clip again. Thanks for bearing with me - when back from usa and caught up on backlog - 2nd half of this year i really will try much harder i promise
It's absolutely not scientific since it's personal observations of sumc dlc coated chains inner link wear, easily visible and measurable. Surely not enough samples but what I hypothesize is that MTB chains are more susceptible to early lateral wear... 😂😮
Shocking isn't it?
KMC DLC chains don't last, wear twice as fast as to SL chains, even on road bike. Also personal observation.
Hi sorry not entirely sure what the comment meant - were you saying DLC had much less wear? that will be super duper unlikely as DLC is applied as an EXTERNAL PLATING AFTER CHAIN CONSTRUCTION.
So you have a diamond like hardness coating on outside, which does absolutely ZERO to improve wear life on any parts of the chain under any actual wear load. It is purely cosmetic, and in my opinion, very misleading marketing.
Sadly in control wear test the DLC 11spd chain was one of the fastest wearing chains tested. Because again there is no DLC on any wear load parts, and to date KMC's actual wear longevity treatments - the XX durability or XXX durability - appear to be not very durable at all.
Good god man, just get to the point
Adam your a smart guy full of knowledge and a great go to source on the subject but your brain is all over the place and your gonna loose people who just want to hear the facts. You don’t need to explain every possible scenario that can affect results. Script it and bullet point out the main factors that affect the results. We’ll all be happy and save time. We’re all busy and interested in your tests and results.
i know - apologies in advance whatever ones i get to before usa trip might still be a tad all over the place, i am just getting out what i can atm to keep things rolling on various fronts, but i am going to be a little buried for awhile as i not only work to keep up with testing and retail sides but also trying to pull ahead to ensure my retail manager has weeks worth of prepped stock for when i am gone. Post usa trip and when caught up, even if i dont get time to script like more pro you tubers, i will at least be able to re take vids if poorly worded & explained, and plan them out a bit better.
A few test projects also wont be able to get back to until 2nd half of 2024, but hope to get to them properly then (chain prep products tests, wax drip set times, some updated tensile testing, chain maintenance test etc etc).
Dude, learn to be concise. I very much want to hear what you have to say. But just say it for God's sake!
I am going to really try 2nd half of 2024 when back from big mid year holiday. I think soon if i cant get better prep time and wording i will give up with YT as just being outside of my skill base.
@zerofrictioncycling992 I have a suggestion. I am a scientist. When we publish papers, the beginning is always an abstract. That is a 250-word summary that encompasses all the main points of the article. It could just be a list of bullet points. Maybe something like that at the beginning of your videos? Maybe you could just take the first three minutes to say these are my main points. 1. Duration of wax on a chain depends on riding conditions, including how much dust is on the road or trail, the nature of the dust, whether the conditions are wet, and how many hills we're climbing with more time spent with suboptimal chain line. 2. Etc. Etc. 3. Etc. Then you could just say I'm going to go into all of these points in more detail in the rest of the video. After that you can be as long-winded as you like. And you don't have to script the whole thing. Just a few minutes.
@@stuartdryer1352 yeah i have thought about that, a channel i follow joe bloggs does that - but to be honest i find that intro annoying overall, its just more time - i am perfectly fine for content to just unfold and tell me the story they want to tell me. So for me i would just be adding more time again to do add this, and i dont know if it would be of any further benefit - if one wished to they can see the chapters in the vid description.
There are other presentation methods but for the moment i very much lack prep time to do anything other than i know what i want to chat to peeps about and so i chat to peeps about it - so its just conversational vs prepped and scripted. Some like this, probably more dont. If i can find a better time balance in next half of 2024 i can try do better, if not - i wont :)