Your Chain Could Be Costing You Minutes. Drivetrain Efficiency with Josh Poertner
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- čas přidán 2. 03. 2022
- The efficiency of your drivetrain can have a big impact on your speed. In this episode I talk with Josh Poertner about which chain lubes are the fastest and why, the efficiency difference between 1x and 2x drivetrains, and whether or not oversized pulley wheels are worth the upgrade.
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What the heck ?! LOL
I could listen to this sort of realistic, informed, bike science talk all day. Thanks for the interviews with Josh. Great stuff, Dylan!
There's so much stuff that makes intuitive sense and it's hard to differentiate between marketing and what real testing shows. That's why we watch this channel. It makes sense that naturally selected cadence is most efficient and 1x always leaves you searching for the right gear on the road. And we know mathematically that given the link length of a chain that anything under 13t is robbing efficiency, but how much? 1 watt for $400, thanks I'll pass on the OSPW.
You can! Just listen to The Marginal Gains podcast, they have hours and hours of similar talk over there.
@@SergioGarcian_n yeah, I'll check it out. Part of what works for me is Dylan leading the conversation.
I was in the process of writing the same sentiment, but I'll just give you a +1
I much prefer anecdotal advice from boomers who've punctured their gp5000s on their first ride, and thus, gp5000 = bad. Facts are just so last year ;)
These interviews are fantastic! I'd listen to more of this any day!
Loved this content Dylan. Your stuff is always amazing but having an expert guest once in a while provides great discussion.
Now I need to go back and watch that video. That conversation has given me more valuable cycling information than any video I’ve seen in a long time. Thanks for this!
wow this has been an eye opener! Thanks Dylan. Love the show
Great video , thanks for all the work you do
I can always count on you for the right answers
Best IRL applicational cycling channel on YT. Fascinating yet practical. Thanks!
Wow! That discussion about 1x was eye-opening! Thanks for that.
You deserve kudos just for the fact that in the cover picture of the video you pointed at SRAM saying slow and at Shimano saying fast :-)
Really nerdy stuff that's irrelevant to folks at my end of the talent/fitness spectrum, but really fascinating. Love your channel
Very nice video dylan !! We hear about a lot of things around marginal gains but we never talk about helmets and which ones are faster this could make a interesting topic for a future video
Excellent conversation--fabulous content. Only complaint: Josh Poertner's mic or voice was really soft and it was hard to hear him even with the volume cranked. Hopefully you can fix it for future videos.
Thank you for this video - loved the interview!
Great content Dylan! Many thanks to Josh. His "snake oil" comments are so right!
I use wax just to prolong the life of my drivetrain and to help keep it clean. A couple of watts won't make a difference for me, but it's nice to have.
So, when you switching back to 2X?
Fantastic video! You definitely should do more videos like this one!
Excellent thanks to both of you guys !
Yay, Rex 🇫🇮 gets a mention. I visited their factory, they actually make cross country ski wax but now also focus on chain lube. Rex is an awesome lube 🙌😎
Great video Dylan and Josh. 👌🏼
Thanks Shane, would be thrilled to visit your channel some day, big fan!
That was fantastic. Great discussion.
Thanks Dylan!!! Josh is an amazing resource of knowledge and you asked him the right questions! 😀.
Got to go buy some Silca lube now for my new bike.
Thanks for the cameo Dylan!
Another great video with Josh!!!
Great video. I use Squirt on my old-school MTB with an 8-speed cassette, as the chain is pretty wide, and there's no issue with penetration. The road bike uses an 11-speed cassette, so I go with RnR Gold there - thinner viscosity is hopefully allowing it go get into those micro-gaps, if you will. HUGE improvement in both bikes over my previous ProLink ProGold oil-based lube.
Hi Dylan this is really interesting content- thanks for putting this together.
One thought for a follow up piece, Josh talks about the maintenance regime, how about a tutorial video showing what and how he’d consider good practice for cleaning and maintenance
The reason I'm a fan of 1x in a utility bike is I've always found the rear derailleurs are easier to set up and index without rubbing than the front. I don't get the same "flawless shifting" out of the front, or maybe for a while when the parts are new. Most of my scenarios are stop and go and I don't enter races so am not concerned about exactly the right gear (I'd just go slightly lower), so wide spaced gearing is an advantage in a city with getting up to speed, especially on an electric bike where I don't need the narrow spacing because the electric motor doesn't care about a tooth difference in gearing. I currently have a 48 tooth chainring on it and an 8 speed 32-11 cassette. I like that it has an 11 and 12 as I feel the narrower spacing should be at the top end when the bike is almost out of power.
I guess I've never thought that closely about my lube. I've used Carlube LM2, vegetable oil, finish line. I don't tend to use dry lube that much as it requires a clean chain and I'm not the type of person who degreases his chain after every ride. My chain probably has lots of dirt in it.
These have been super interesting. Great work!
These have been a great listen!!!
when i was 11 years old ( 54 years ago) i did not know my Phillips (used) 10 speed bike needed to be serviced/oiled. and the chain snapped. Thank you Ace Cycle (long since closed) for not laughing too hard. The chain replacement cost $3 Canadian. That was a decent amount of money back in the day. After that I always oiled my chain. Hey what does a little kid with no coaching or advice know? This sort of education that is provided was simply not available in the 60s to 1990s? maybe. I also love the "currency" analogy of oversize wheels. Suggestion: currency of one KG extra weight .... I know GCN did something like that with water battles on a climb. As an old overweight rider I do keep my bike clean and lubed. Cannot stand squeeks. But if i want to go fast, i ride DOWNHILL lol. Great Channel Dylan.
I got used to apply Squirt mid race or long rides in gravel and MTB, I feel It certainly has a higher psychological effect on you. Great video as usual Dylan, great guest.
Amazing content! Keep up the good work
Oh Yes!! Dylan you’ve definitely excelled yourself these last 2 vids💥 I’m sure for most non pro racers / enthusiasts this info is just invaluable… prep then maintain all your equipment, zip your jersey up, improve your riding & your position…. and get to leave your wallet at home!! Brilliantly simple 🍻😃🤩
And buy aero socks :P.
I swear by my 1x setup for CX (and MTB), but training on the road with it does indeed suck, which is what I assume he's really talking about. Being slightly off-geared is a good tradeoff for the mechanical simplicity of 1x in the mud, but on the road, I'm never comfortable.
Good job Dylan!
Listening to this put me in a very happy place. Sheer bike dorkery at it’s finest! 👍
Josh seems like a tech ninjer. Really enjoyed the interview !
whats a ninjer?
Excellent, informative. Thank you!
BHD uses ACTUAL snake oil when going for a KOM!!! Almost 100% efficient!
I did the Gulf paraffin dip for a while. I could never get it to last more than 100 or 150 miles before squeaky dry noises. It's on a single speed so forces are high and chain length is short. I switched to squirt. I clean/quick soak in the pink Muc Off cleaner mixed with dish soap, convection bake in the oven at 210F for several minutes to dry. Then immediately hang on an old jockey wheel screwed to a board on the garage wall and lube with Squirt while spinning before chain cools off. Easier, takes 15 min and lasts 300ish miles. YMMV
To be clear: this is a joke. However, drive train efficiency is not. I use a molten wax (homemade: paraffin and Teflon - shout out to Oz Cycle), and I’ll never go back.
Ive been out drinking with him. dude does shots of the stuff.
No snakes were hurt in the process of writing this comment.
I winced watching you put that on mid race in a video Dylan... with many lubes that have a carrier that needs to dry at least overnight... you don’t want to run them freshly-lubed or the friction really jumps up.
A guy on my team tested one of the faster ones 1) fresh and wet and then 2) dried overnight, and the difference was about 9 watts. ouch! I think some of the lab tests have shown similar results with fresh applications.
With drive train losses being tested at 250W, how does it scale with changing power? I.E. is it linear where doubling the power doubles the power loss, quadratic, exponential or something else?
Not linear. If power loss is 20w at 250w, then it’s the same with higher power according to Wheel Energy. It does increasena bit, but significantly only up from +600W
i would say its difficult. If you increase the force on the pedals, you also increase the tension on the chain. So I guess you have to look individually at each loss and consider for yourself. I would assume that the loss increases very slightly (assuming a well maintained drive train) with higher power until it hits a certain point and then increases faster.
I guess my answer is similar to that of Juuso.....
been saying this for years... when they started adding gears the friction went up... my 7 speed sun-tour superb pro freewheel with a sedis sport chain with cone bearing BB - was almost frictionless. I could spin it backwards 5-8 x from one push - yes with all the parts on.
Yep
Great content! Real and true education.
Happy to hear hot wax is best as I already do it. Never really believed the claims for watt savings before but did it because it’s so much less messy unless you have a bike shed. Would never go back now even if there had been no W benefit. Once you know what you are doing the hassle is hardly anything extra.
As regards oversized pulley wheels. I have some on my TT bike but bought them from AliExpress and they’re much cheaper. In fact I wasn’t happy with the original pulley wheels so bought a couple of ceramic pulley wheels to put in the cage. They spin very easily and are big. Doubt the very expensive ceramic speed ones are much better. May be worth considering for anyone who looks at the prices of oversized jockey wheels and thinks ‘f*** that’.
Waxing is the best, once you're set up for it. I especially like it on the trainer bike in the basement, no need to worry about the kids grabbing the chain and getting messy handprints all over the couch!
@@Ahats5 problem with doing that on my trainer is all the wax flakes on the floor that end up making it super slippery regardless on how I try to clean them
If you buy cheap ceramic bearings the weatherproofing is usually what they cut for the budget. If you've got dirty bearings they'll offset any benefit of ceramic, do double check.
@@maximfournier-giguere5780 use a worn chain, wax flakes reduce significantly after using the chain.
Wax is not enough if you ride in the rain, so it's twice the work.
Fantastic video #2 of what hopefully is more similar very informative content to come.
Hell yeah!!! Goin' full ceramic and single track, with a 7speed cassette --- ASAP. -- and send me a case of that gnarly beast powder you got for sale! Really, awesome two videos with Josh. Need to go clean my bike now. Thanks much Dylan!
Would absolutely love would a semi-frequent (is bi-weekly too much to ask :) discussion between you and Josh that covers all the little things we cyclists over or under think!
3 in 1 and the local true value/ace hardware store. Brings back memories and never had an issue.
Thanks for the information. 👍
I used a hairdryer to warm the chain before applying Squirt in the winter here in the Uk. And I keep the Squirt bottle in the house.
Highly enlightening as always! Thanks. But the real star of the show was that Campagnolo kitted bike in the background! Nice!
Thanks for the feature 😅 a clean bike is a fast
Keep up the good work , i m just getting back to cycing at 50 , i raced at age 15 /16 years old and won a provincial race. I bought this year a BMC Team machine wich took me almost a year in this industry now adays to pin point what i need among all the brands ect...and the level of technology and how F1 like preciss twiking level it came to is astonishing to me , but realy cool at the same time. A hole UNiverse for me to learn , like this video...very interesting. Thanks , keep it up.
I wax my chain by immersion. But this provided great info on many issues.
Amazing Video!!
I love your videos so informative
Useful insights. Got a bit vague and subjective around the ‘I don’t like 1x’ section. I’ve only ever ridden 1x for my road riding, I think it’s ace.
Dave Rome at Cyclingtips did an epic series on chains and chain maintenance including articles on chain efficiency and durability, lubes, cleaning techniques, degreasers, checking wear, quick links, waxing, and more. Well worth the time to read.
Would love to listen to this as a podcast on my way to work.
As a weekend warrior road cyclist, I have been using canning (Gulf) wax and PTFE for six months. The engineering expertise that Josh provides bolsters my confidence in the change: cleaner, longer wearing, more effective. Granted, I agree with the drawbacks he also points out: crockpot, tedious, etc. If these bother you, it may just not be for you.
I also note that Josh didn't make a distinction between road/pavement and dirt/gravel surfaces. I have not been waxing the mountain bike chain, thinking that the dirty environment meant that I would have to do it too frequently, compared to the road bike chain. I may need to reconsider this assumption, as I never considered the "dirt extruding" action of the wax that he describes.
Josh is also right about there being no excuse to use PTFE...
Plain food grade parrafin for me. Works great (fast, hardly any wear). Chain is super clean (no black grinding paste). I forgot to add it's super cheap (I paid $25 for 5kg!). No bad PTFE which poisons the environment
Yup. No PTFE needed.
How does wax dipping work for all-year commuting?
I use it on all my bikes including the commuter! Rewax after 300km (200miles) slightly less if riding in the rain, which isn't often in Melbourne. Just use a rag and some boiling water to "degrease".
@@richardggeorge You wax without removing the chain?
I get a lot of wet weather and am constantly oiling my chain. Every less than 200 km. It's an absolute mess. I use gear oil.
@@difflocktwo quicklink fitted to all chains (kmc, sram, or Ali Express ones) and never change them until chain is worn out and I've never had an issue with broken quicklink (I am strong sprinter rider too)
Dylan, I don't know how this one slipped through -- but just now saw it. I'm wondering if the best way to ensure you have a chain lubricated all the way inside and dirt free is to simply install a new chain during race week and leave the factory lube on (and in) it. In fact, I think this may make a lot of economical sense if your chain is getting close to max stretch. Thoughts?
Love the Video. What came to my mind is how about dropping the bottle of SQUIRT lube in warm water before use (as Josh says above 80° F) That should get the wax on the spot or am i thinking this wrong?
I totally agree. I managed to improve lubrication and aero on bike and reduce weight on bike. Now I am looking to improve aero on rider and reducing weight on rider. All this avoiding spending a fortune.
great video!
I remember reading the articles on zerofrictioncycling about the chain lube situation and they were really extensive. I ended up using the mspeedwax hot wax, and I'm too weak to know the difference. But! I was mainly getting it to keep the chain clean, and it has worked super well for that. No more black grease everywhere. So far 1500 miles in and the chain wear tool still says below 0.5%, but we'll see I guess. I do rewax every 150 miles or so.
Initially the biggest barrier was getting a new chain degreased before waxing, since I live in an apartment and can't deal with all the chemicals. But I found out that mspeedwax actually offers new chains prewaxed, so that was perfect.
You can also get an Lbs to do the degreasing, I'm sure they'd be happy to
Great video. It does leave me with a big question for Josh - what's the best way to clean my chain? I've heard different POV's on using everything from citrus degreaser to Dawn dishwashing liquid. I use Super Secret, but I'd love an "official" answer on how to prep my chain properly before reapplying. Thanks
IMO I've used both dishwashing liquid and degreaser but not much as I run wax.
Degreaser 100% is better no doubt, it's much stronger and less viscous so it easily penetrates. It's also hella expensive which is why I usually use dish soap instead when I can.
More important than degreaser vs dish soap is how well you apply the product. It doesn't matter what you use if it doesn't penetrate deep inside and clean the chain, no lube is fast when dirty.
And Silva super secret is a wax based lube right? You shouldn't clean wax lubed chains frequently, it's a waste of money time and effort. I would recommend wax lubes for general road riding, it's stupid amazing outside of the rain unfortunately I only have access to squirt but I'm looking at ways I could import molten speed wax at a good price
And with what cleaning frequency?
I was hot waxing chains years ago when nobody was even doing that. I would also mix powdered Teflon in the mix. I like experimenting with things . The problem with hot wax is that it doesn’t last very long. I like going on long rides and at the end of 100 mile it’ll actually add a little more friction.
I’ve found over the years that full synthetic 2 stroke motor oil works the best and is the cheapest. You just have to do a little more maintenance to keep things clean.. I can really feel less resistance in the pedals and that’s where I counts.
Another great video. When do we get to find out the 2022 sponsors for BHD?
24:04 such a gem
Waxing is always going to be the best, because it makes you clean your drive train, so you eliminate the buildup or dirt and debris. You can strip your chain with gasoline and dip with a double tin over a stove , add pfte powder .
Another great video. Interested in maintenance of hubs and need to clean bearings. Major faff but do club road cyclists really need to do this and, if so, how often?
Agree, you can't beat the old school 53 - 39 12- 25 set up for the road
Except if you live in a place with long and steep climbs…😂
No need to heat anything here in Georgia in the late spring through mid to late November. Having a lube that doesn't wash out easily however is quite useful
I used to wax chains in the 90's. I had 5-7 chains and would ruin them through. I would do 3-4 MTB rides each before switching them out. Great solution for dusty conditions. But adding and removing links did cause a few more chain breakage issues on the trail. I stopped with the availability of dry lubes.
21:28 Francis Cade did a good job on cleaning bike!!!
Thought I saw him.
Dylan, did this conversation change your re-lube strategy for long dirty/dusty gravel races? I re-lubed with RnR Gold at each checkpoint at UG200 because my chain got loud and it was good for my brain. Now I'm reconsidering for UG. I'm heading to Hico for the first time this year and I'm curious about the water crossings and what _that_ impact has on the chain. So many variables! Great content, dude!!
I have been delighted with Squirt, which Josh highlights, but it doesn't work as a pure squirt on very well. I use a heat gun after I drip it on. Works great, lasts perhaps forever? Chain doesn't seem to get dirty under most circumstances. Brush it off, add more, heat it up.
great info...
Dude I rock the John Deere chain lube always!! since 1984!
I've always had my doubts about OSPWs and ceramic bearings. Do you really need a fragile ultra low friction bearing in a low speed application like cycling? Not really. Not to mention the larger surface area (aero loss) and extra chain links required (more weight) of OSPWs. If they were really that good I suspect Shimano, SRAM etc would spec them on their top end groupsets.
But they look cool 😎
Actually sram do put larger pulley on their 1x mtb/cx derailleur.
Devil's advocate: those extra links mean fewer trips over the drive train per mile. Marginal durability gain probably. Microscopically! They come with the chain, why waste them!
as always more really useable info (except for BHD of course), thanks!...when's your next race?!
I've just converted my Ultegra 6600 to 1x10 with 52/11-28 so i guess the downsides aren't really that present and it works just fine, can recommend.
Great information 👍
Would like to know if a clutch derailleur like GRX (clutch engaged) causes the chain more frictional losses than clutch disengaged (or another non-clutch derailleur like Ultegra).
The chain waxing process is actually fun in a nerdy kind of way and straightforward: 1 - clean chain in hot soapy water in ultrasonic machine, 2 - rinse chain in hot water and bake at 170 degF (my lowest oven setting) for an hour to clear water from pin regions. 3 - leave chain in hot wax overnight on lowest setting, 4 - hang chain in straight vertical line until wax is hard (old wire coat hanger works great). The ultrasonic cleaner is also great for cleaning cassettes and rim brake assemblies. The wax sheds any dirt and will last at least 1-2 K miles if you are a low power rider like me.
Kept 5 chains. Cleaned 5 then used them all. Repeat.
Dylan, you do awesome videos. I don't know if there is enough research, but could you do a video on slow-release carbs like UCAN. UCAN recommends athletes take in significantly fewer calories. Thanks.
So Squirt wax works better above 80°F (27°C). Could you pre-heat the wax in the bottle to lets say 104°F (40°C) and apply the wax?
Love these talks, very informative! keep it up!
You can shake the bottle, since the wax is emulsified in water it barely makes a difference if the wax granules are molten or not, it might even break the emulsion so it may turn into a thick paste rather than the pourable liquid
I love 1x for commute and cross, I dont need to shift chain rings. I use a road inner ring at 38
I'd be interested to hear more about his 1x or 2x points
I switched to silca hot wax on both MTB and Gravel bikes last season and will never go back to trad lubes again. The treatment lasts a long time, the drivetrain stays clean, fast, and quiet. Once you get used to the process it also saves time over other lube methods, and drivetrain parts last longer as well, and cleaning the drivetrain is super easy. But 1x for me on gravel as I just prefer the simplicity, even though I understand I am losing a little efficiency with cross chaining, I am OK with it. Also, I never drop a chain with 1x, and a single chain drop during a ride/race will lose more time than anything else.
15.000 km now on waxed chains on my road bike:
since I changed from oil lubes to standard parrafines (candles) + PTFE powder I could eliminate the all the dirt, wear and incredible workload for cleaning. Of course you have to setup the mixture, heat it up and penetrate the chain(s) in the molten Parrafine but all in all it is less time consuming. A waxed chain never attracts dirt and mud.
Yeah, we couldn't appreciate enough just how oz cycles changed majntenance on the messiest part of a bicycle. It was metal filings in oil galore. You could never fully clean it off any laundry.
If the lube is scented with say, strawberry, I definitely finish first. LOL J/K Seriously though, good information and Dylan you have the most detailed content. Please keep it up. A lot of great info you put out. Really appreciated.
I did an accidental test on this very subject. I had dry chain lube on in a very fast group ride. We hit pouring rain and all lube was washed out of my chain. The chain sounded like severe cross-chaining and I swear I lost 50 watts and was promptly dropped. That is when I went to Squirt, have not had a problem sense.
But my squirt chain struggles in the rain, all the road muck goes right in like the chain is a supermart on black friday. But definitely better than dry libe
Thank you very much for this informative video! One question, a friend of mine also uses hot wax on the cassette and the pulleys. Have you ever heard of anyone doing this? I find the idea of putting the pulley bearing in the wax bath a bit strange.
What about running an equivalent size front chainring for 1x? It seems to me like a big chainring and eagle cassette would have the efficiency if you don’t mind the gaps
Found with wax based lubes.. first quick link essential... for Squirt put in microwave for 10seconds to apply... 1st time and every so often throw chain in oven and also heat Squirt in microwave RIGHT before applying...
REX (chain lube) Mentioned! GO Finland!
If you have a heat gun, would it be a good idea to really heat up the chain, something around 180 degrees before you put the chain in the wax? The idea being that it would let the wax get deep more quickly because it the chain wouldn't be cooling the wax as the wax is penetrating.
I do this! but I’m not 100% sure that it’s worth the time. I let the chain soak for several minutes so it’s gonna get hot either way.
not really.... the wax is really hot, doesn’t cool down. you swish chain around plenty long and it really heats up fine.
We've tested this and you do not need to do it.. just leave the chain in the wax a few minutes longer and you achieve the same results. I'll often just drop my chains on top of the hard wax when I turn on the InstantPot and come back 30 minutes later to agitate and remove them.
The only pain in the butt thing you can do that does make a slight difference in performance is to wax at 200F or so, and then let it cool to around 145F before pulling the chain from the wax. This is a bit time consuming, but we've shown in our lab that the cooler chain and wax loses less wax from inside the rollers by this method and you tend to get 10-15% longer life from each waxing.
@@SILCAVelo That you tried it tells me it was good question. I got the super secret chain lube and I'm going to try that.
Hot Wax does the same job, I don't think it's going to have any impact this way
What about engineering the chains to make them more receptive to lubricants ?
I'm not exactly sure about bicycles, but I know with motorcycle chains, oil is the only thing activating doing any lubricating, anything else just gets flung off the first time you run it after you use them. Some of them are good for other purposes, cleaning, derusting etc. but I wouldn't get too excited about most chain lube lol.
In the MTB world I microwave my squirt before application and use my thumb and index finger to push it into my links as I rotate the the drive train . 2500 miles and no noticable chain stretch . My son did his first squirt lube and he made climbs he normally could not do . I also feel the one by 10 speed drive has less resistance than the 12 speed and using a smaller chainring at 28:tooth gets me most if not all those steep climbs with the 11/46 cog . The chain line with that bigger cog creates more side pull creating more resistance. . For me I don't loose any top end speed from a 32 ring 12 speed to a 28 ring 10 speed but the speed feels more efficient with a lesser quality drive train over the 12
I am, and will always be, skeptical of a lubrication method that requires you to re-lube mid-ride. As far as OSPW, there are alternatives to CeramicSpeed that are far cheaper and spin far better. #iykyk But I'm also glad you cut the part about 'aerodynamic drag loss' of OSPWs, since it's complete nonsense. It's at the back of the bike and sitting behind a spinning leg. When you can show me clean air hitting it in the real world, I'll listen. But you can't. If we're suddenly worried about a tech that costs 3w, then we should talk about disc brakes...
@J H there's a definite irony to telling us weight didn't matter for the past few years as aero frames were being pushed, only to turn around and marginal gains every new part or component that came out.