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How Climbing Gyms Are Made
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- čas přidán 16. 02. 2021
- How strong are bolts in a climbing gym. I have always wondered this while I'm falling through the air only being caught.... by plywood??? We found out it is all secured into the super structure of the metal framing behind the climbing gym wall. Then it was fun to take some 11ply Birch Plywood and break test it. Shear broke at 26kn or 5800lbf and in tension 12kn or 2700lbf. It may not be that strong if 6kn was cyclically loaded on it or even a shock load but that is what we got in a single slow pull tests. Thank you Clint and Gary (@clintrycolwell and @garymattos) for showing us behind the wall.
➜Visit The Commons Climbing Gym in Boise Idaho - www.commonsclimbing.com/
➜EPISODE of Gym Lead Fall Forces at • Lead falls in climbing...
➜www.entre-prises.us/ manufactured these walls
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Why didn't you send me this vid before I whipped on my home wall and broke it? :DDDD
Wait. You don’t watch all my videos???
@@HowNOT2 I watched all the caving videos! :D
It's funny you call it the largest LEGO set, because as the guy who drafted and built the assembly packet for this project, I refer to my job as creating the equivalent of LEGO instruction booklet for climbing walls.
very interesting video, especially for the explanation about where the bolts are attached. Kind of obvious but in the end not so straightforward. good luck with the new projects!
Yay the The Commons! What a great surprise to see the home gym!
Sweet! Super interesting to learn about some of this stuff. The only wall I’ve made is a ten foot bouldering wall in my backyard but this’ll still be helpful for improvements on it.
It is common to teach clipping in gyms by temporarily putting bolts down at ground-level. I saw someone once tie off the end of a toprope to a bolt in a random lower down hold-specific hole in order to demonstrate how to prussic up a rope. Luckily, the bolt made a loud creaking noise when he started to put weight on it, and a more knowledgable individual ran over and pointed out that he had tied off to a not-super-good-enough bolt (based on your break test, it probably is super-good-enough at the Commons, but this was on a 20+ year old wall that was falling apart). Just a reminder that what can go wrong, will go wrong! Great video as usual (and YAHOO BOISE CLIMBING!!!!)
More please! Just built a home wall and would love to see how the spacing of screws/studs affect strength of the plywood at the t-nut. In your pull-out test here, the backwards t-nuts are spaced closer together than my wall studs are, so I'm thinking my wall wouldn't achieve the strength you got. Would be cool if we could come up with minimum safe standards for home wall construction, it was hard to find a clear standard online.
This was super informative and helpful as someone who is shopping around for wall building companies for my first gym. Just understanding what's going on and how these structures are assembled.
how is your search going? I'm looking for a company as well
Fantastic video Ryan.
Cross-threaded t-nuts are a regular occurrence because impact guns generate a significant amount of force and the torque rating of a t-nut is significantly less than what an impact wrench can produce. Also, the steel that t- nuts are made with are of a softer steel than the bolts used which means the bolts can easily chew through a t-nut. Most t-nuts are over torqued as a result and this compromises integrity especially if the t-nut has been cross-threaded multiple times. I'd be curious to see how t-nuts preform in tension using a cross threaded t-nut as your sample.
Pro-tip: to avoid cross threading, hand thread the first few threads, then use an impact driver with a medium setting or drill with the clutch set to the proper torque
@@drew5334 Indeed. However, this is generally not the case. Often setters are floating holds, balancing them on the gun and driving away. Even if the bolt catches the thread appropriately, it's often over torqued, flexing and altering the thread pitch over time. A compromised t-nut that's trying to hold a protruding volume against the leverage of a cruxing or dynamic climber is a noteworthy example. Also, once cross-threaded, t-nuts should be replaced and not retapped and large volumes and protruding holds should fasten into the steel structure the same way fall catchers are.
@@morefreepress An experienced setter "should" be able to tell is a screw is cross-threading, even when using an impact driver. Regardless though, unless the threads are stripped to a point of spinning, as long as they tighten fully they'll hold the measly load we put on them. It's only going to be a max of a couple hundred pounds. I agree they should be replaced though. It would be lazy not to.
Only thing I have a problem with is them saying screw-in T-nuts cost only 10-15% more than pound-ins. Theyre around twice as much and not available in most places.
Hi! There is a new ''world-level'' gym in my vicinity. What was super interesting to see is that bolts are atteched directly to the plywood. However instead of a t-nut there is a big square washer (2x2inch) and normal hex nut. I am super curious to know what these break at! To make it even more fascinating the toprope anchors are mounted the same way!
That is terrifying and I would NOT climb there. For the mid climb hangers at bare minimum you need a horizontal wood 4 by 4 waler running the width of the plywood panel, bolted through the plywood with bolts every 6" apart, and a 3x3" steel plate behind the waler for the anchor bolt. For the top anchors, they MUST be bolted to steel building structure
Dude this vid is awesome!! You should totally repost it so it´s visible to new followers! I don´t know if that like an "inmoral" thing in YT, but it´s just as good as your newest content ;)
I’m sure you probably already know these things and were just hurrying for our sake but a scrap wood backer board when drilling helps the breakout/break through on the plywood. Also those Brad point or screw/auger type drill bits(couldn’t tell in the shot which one you were using) are notoriously bad for ugly exit holes. There’s not much that’s faster when it comes to pulling itself through a hole but a center punch and a regular twist drill bit would be slower but equally accurate and a little better on the exit. I’m sure you and/or your tool guy know these things but just wanted to offer some advice from my knowledge toolbox since you’ve helped me out on the climbing side of things. Thanks for posting man. Enjoyed the investment content too. Don’t think I commented there but I’ll dip over there soon and drop my situation to further your idea of types of folks you have glued to your content these days. Already looking forward to the next one man. 👍🤟
Check out the irwin triple-fluted Speedbor bits, they leave super clean holes and are incredibly quick, just watch yourself with the torque, they have a self-feed tip that pulls it through the wood. Used them on a moonboard I built and they made drilling through three sheets of 3/4 ACX plywood like nothing, with a pretty clean hole even without a backer.
@@drew5334 thanks for the tip, always looking for a better tool, I’ll be sure to check these out.
my city’s gym! love this place
Different birch plywood (where it is manufactured) will have different strengths too. When I closed my gym I ripped some of the t-nuts out of the wall and had consistent lower numbers than you got.
really interesting the gym i work at is pretty old like the oldest one in my area and instead of something that seems pretty modular we welded the entire structure in our build then put ply wood onto said structure.
More on home gym please. Especially when there's probably more of them being bodged around the world at the moment :)
nice video! many people use OSB for their home walls so it would be nice to see OSB break compared to normal plywood
A lot of commercial gyms used OSB as well, especially the generation that had a concrete coating.
I used osb myself
Loved this video!!! I wanna open my own gym in my area (in which there is none within a few hour drives). I've been secretly looking behind gyms to try to get a better understanding of what I'd be getting into lol..Thanks Ryan, stoke coming your way...PS I also just got those Aramid slings from Edelrid I seen a glimpse of on your slack snap in the subscription section of this video....That mean a test coming soon on those too?
Hey man did you ever build your gym ? What area are you in
@@thebelayknot Yes sir, I have one in Youngstown, Ohio. Did a franchise with ASCEND climbing
@@50StichesSteel oh damn! Do you have a good way to contact you ? I have some questions for you, I'm interested in opening a gym myself in my hometown
Have taken whips on home walls with t-nuts straight into 3/4 ply with no problem. Makes sense why now. I can understand the hesitation to recommend that though, and certainly understand why a commercial wall wouldn't especially considering their safety factor and repeated use.
So cool
Hey that's my local gym!! Good to know they are doing things right haha
@hownottohighline where is the CMI hanger break test video can't see it here anymore. It's there on Facebook why not here?
This is awesome been looking to turn a bridge near me into a mini gym :)
That’s an awesome idea, what sucks is that people suck and your holds will magically disappear
@@heli400 unfortunately you're right, people will steal anything. I did once add a route to a long discussed brick built railway bridge (did it many years ago, but I worked with the features and did minimal chipped) the 2 bolts at the top weren't stolen, but sure any bolt on holds would've gone real quick
@@tomtom4405 😱chipped holds?!?😱.
....On a bridge sure, ok. (Man made)
I just hope you don’t bring this practice to real rock ;)
@@heli400 was thinking just little bits of wood screwed on :to hopefully avoid that :)
Hi, grat video. I am a guy living in Spain, and want to build my own climbing wall. How would you cut the rafters between strange angles? ANy suggestion? Thank you!
If you live in Kansas... HAHA! the climbing gym in wichita is pretty awesome! didnt know that is how the draws were hanging.
my mind is blown that a hanger through a single thing of plywood held up to 24kN, wow. You've shown hangers in concrete slabs break before that!
I used to make holds for Nicros back in 2000.
I haven't seen you make it yet so PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make a video on home gym walls!!!! Thanks :)
(Did I mention Please?)
The Gym in my city when I started climbing in 2001 is probably looking pretty sketch compared to how they’re build now....
In fact I wanna bet that the hangers bolted to the roof with fixed draws are probably just a single sheet of ply... maybe a second square of ply added behind them to re-enforce those anchor points.
Where is Bobby? o.O
Although you moved he still has to be in the videos! :D
I wonder how big of a back washer on the t nut you would need to make it 20kn
Ohh the CARNAGE!!! It’s a beautiful thing when you’re watching. Probably not so much when you’re experiencing it...if you live to remember it haha. Great man, just effing awesome watching you tear things up for SCIENCE!
Definitely interested in the home gym content.
What if you put the t nut through a big, say 3" sheet metal washer, as a backer?
Use a 3" plate washer, they're the standard washer used with concrete anchors to secure sill plates to the concrete foundation and are +1/8" thick. I bet you get at least 50% increase on both shear and tension tests
That would help with pulling through the wood, but some of the concern is the t-nut itself breaking.
@@jimmmaaayyy5163 In this situation, the T-nut is far stronger than the actual material, so (especially considering the expected loads) a properly-secured backing plate would be more than good enough.
@@nikolaihedler8883 With respect, the t-nut is not necessarily far stronger than the actual material. That's why there is a standard for it, t-nuts can break, commonly right where the tube transitions to the flange. I know the plywood is strong enough, but I wouldn't trust a random t-nut with my life. Hence the bolt hangers and top anchors connecting to steel structure behind and tnuts only used for holds.
There are other threaded plates etc. that can be used as a backer behind the plywood so that a lead anchor can be placed in the middle of a panel and not connected to the structure. Usually there is some specifications about how that panel itself is then connected to the rest of the structure.
Awesome. Any reason why you used the dyno loop?
I had them haha
its actually a 21mm baltic birch.
There's a gym I've been to where a hold has spun on me 2-5 times a month for the last few months. I'm still fairly new to climbing, but that's not something i'm doing wrong is it? I'm about 220 and I just don't wanna go if i'm gonna keep falling because holds are spinnging
Inform the owner. It happens quite regularly everywhere, especially if you just use the bolts and don't put in any additional screws. It might happen to you more frequently because of your weight (no offence ;)) .
25kn on the plywood that’s crazy it would take a whip for sure
Dude! When the hell were you in Boise?!
I am building a home wall for a friend and had this question, but also i was wondering if MDF would be a good option instead of plywood
MDF is much more fragile to such loads (it could be fatal for a climbing wall), plywood is much more durable
Yeah, the random 'grain' of MDF means that any bolt could pull a chunk out after a sharp load.
So OSB is glued wood chips and MDF is glued together saw dust. You need real plywood to do anything!
Sweet vineyard
We need to see the whip tests on plywood with tnuts. Edit: *blush* Just finished the video.... lmao. But yeah... was that actually 25kn on a downward pull? That seems like a freaking lot. I'm kind of wondering if you didn't say it outloud as you didn't want folks to think about using it.
It's also a max force, where the wall would already be compromised long before that. So you will probably survive the fall, but the wall is damaged.
would it be cheaper to build up or dig down ?
Digging is expensive, and then you still have to build up the frame anyway
Very cool video, check out the esqalar climbing gym in Doha -Qatar. Complete artificial rock climbing gym in an outdoor setting, I believe also build by Entreprises.
Check out our new store! hownot2.store/
Seeing this made me realise how bootleg the gym I work at is. Not cool.
Please, please, please do a home gym video!
I call the "rafters", "strongbacks".
how not to test T-bolts, un-ironically!
I think here in Germany we don't have such a superstructure behind the walls
My gym certainly has and I'd imagine you need to pass some kind of inspection before opening a commercial climbing gym (and regular inspections later). I. e. I think we're safe.
rip his phone battery X)
AlGo
26kn huh, how dumb would it be to ascend a climbing wall on a anchor of two equalized t-nuts that are set only in plywood?
Yooo I know where this is
Still don't get why hangers aren't attached to tbolts only. 25kN is just the amount of force any carabineer would endure.
Although it kinda makes sense to attach top rope anchors to the main wall frames made of steel.
Because that's the maximum force to rip it out of the wood in an 'ideal' scenario, the wood would be damaged already with lower force, so you'd have to replace a part of the wall every time someone had a big fall. Not really something that's easy to do.
algorithm
did a dude rip a hold out during the video?
Good video but better without mask
First comment!!
The firest? Wow impressive
Are u and Kim still together?
Hey that is not how hangars are bolted to the wall in climbing gyms! They always bolt to the steel structure behind. So these tests are really not worth anything!