Hop-A-Jet Mishap NTSB Preliminary Report + Inside Info From the Rescue Helo
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- čas přidán 5. 03. 2024
- Mover and Gonky review the preliminary NTSB report on the Hop-A-Jet crash at Naples, FL plus Mover reads a message from a viewer that was involved in the rescue efforts on that day. www.flyingmag.com/ntsb-releas...
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The appearance of U.S. Department of Defense (DoD) visual information does not imply or constitute DoD endorsement.
Views presented are my own and do not represent the views of DoD or its Components.
The FO had just retired from a perfect 121 career. RIP Ian.
Our company operates Challengers and the pilots with experience in the type are leaning towards inadvertently shutting down the engines.
Here’s a distinctly viable scenario: The right seater is PF and is head out of cockpit looking to turn final. The left seater is PM and as the PF calls for the next flap change, looks down and reaches under the right seater’s throttle arm. As his hand reaches the flap handle for perhaps the twelve thousandth time in his career he looks up to go head out also. As he pulls the handle up and out of the gate, the PF retards the throttles just as the PM’s forearm is still in the way. The PM feels a contact, moves his arm, but it is too late as the switches have been moved up. The PF feels resistance and wants to further reduce thrust, so he pulls the throttles rearward but inadvertently goes past idle into idle cut-off. The engines start spooling down and airspeed decays, so the PF moves the throttles forward to no effect, then back to near flight idle as they commit to a landing attempt.
If this was what actually happened, knowing the NTSB listened to the CVR, why would so much of the focus in the preliminary report be about fuel and not even a vague mention of an inadvertent shutdown?
@@user-ke5nc4nb7o if you look at the report, the NTSB says their two main lines of enquiry are fuel contamination or inadvertent crew engine shutdown. There are similar accidental engine shutdowns on record, I believe the scenario described above will in all likelihood be found to be the cause.
Thank you. I missed that. @@johnfisher7143
@@user-ke5nc4nb7o Dan Grider describes quite often his opinion of the serious problems with the new politically appointed head of the NTSB.
@@RidgeKayseryes, let’s make everything political. I know you might find it hard to believe but government employees work for you and the country regardless of who sits in the White House. Griders an idiot for even bringing that up.
I watched the video. Whoever was flying did all that could be done. He touched down under control. He made the landing. Nothing more he could do. Respect!
The cutoff switches will not engage unless the thrust levers are at idle. Tried this yesterday on the ground. Also, oil pressure warning is the first EICAS indication to appear.
Juan Browne says getting an oil pressure light is one of the first indications you’ll get in this airplane during an shutdown situation
Blancoliro also went more in-depth on the possible inadvertent engine shutdown. He found an old service bulletin that mentioned the possibility of a situation where the captain might reach across as pilot monitoring to give requested flaps and if the FO were to reduce power (pulling the throttle back) at the same time, the captain's arm would press against the shutoff release latches allowing the FO to inadvertently bring the throttle back past idle and into the shutoff position.
If there's a single possibility that the pilots are not at fault, no matter how remote, Juan will dedicate an entire video to the theory. I genuinely don't think I have ever seen him assign blame to any pilot - his "accident analyses" remind me of the stuff the Teamsters used to put out whenever a guy got into an at-fault accident at my workplace.
Nice guy, tho.
@@harveywallbanger3123I think you missed the episode where the Turkish Airbus landed gear up and then decided to go around to ultimately crash. Juan clearly assigned blame there to the crew.
@@largosgaming
The idle/shutoff release latch will ONLY work if the thrust levers are in idle position against the stop. You could hold the red release tabs hard as you want outside of idle and retard the levers to idle and it will not go past idle into shut off position. Very doubtful on that segment of flight they are going to have the thrust levers near idle - they were dirty and no indication they were trying to burn off speed or altitude so they will be carrying easily 50% up N1 plus you want to keep any high bypass fan motor spooled up for go arounds. I am sure all the inadvertant shutdowns that you were talking about were either on ground movement, descent from altitude or on flare.... all situations where the levers would be pulled to idle and then possible for those shut down scenarios to happen
actually ITT will be the first thing to show but the EICAS is not monitoring for low temps nor would the crew even be watching that
I haven't flown in a long time due to medical reasons, that's when I started following accident investigations. If the PM did indeed inadvertently shut down both engines it would not be the first time. I'd have to do a lot of digging to find it, but it's happened before. Also it's happened, caught and corrected. That one led to a good night in the underwear dept at Walmart!! The "Stu" that got those passengers out the baggage door should get recognized for that! She saved those lives!! JMHO --gary
As a recently retired flight attendant for 35 years, I really want to thank all of you guys and gals for the amazing work you do.
8:10 ... Yes, that would be an indication of a shutdown. Those lights normally come on when shutting the engines down normally on this type. There is a video circulating around social media of a crew demonstrating how the arm of the PM reaching behind the throttles could get hooked on the red tabs to allow them to go into the cutoff position. Having some experience with this type, this scenario makes the most sense to me and is something that should be looked at (of course I could be completely wrong here), but we'll of course have to wait to see what the NTSB says.
Everyone doing those simulations are doing it with the thrust levers against the idle stop. You will not get the levers into shutoff if you activate the release latch outside of idle - it's how they were designed. Doubtful in a dirty configuration they would not be carrying thrust and be anywhere idle
I flew challengers for a few years. In my professional opinion I believe it was an inadvertent shutdown.
Oil pressure wasn’t the cause of the Eng shutdown. The Eng shutdown/failure was the cause of the oil pressure lights and CAS messages
I’ve had to shutdown an engine on the G550 due to low oil pressure. The Eng didn’t fail it was a precautionary shutdown. Oil-P went to 0, ran the checklist and declared an Emer and did a simple single Eng landing. Turned out the oil pump shaft sheared. Which wouldn’t cause the motor to fail initially until it just burns itself up and seizes.
Of course pure speculation on my part just an opinion.
The right wing hit the acoustic wall and caused it to spin.
As a Collier County resident, it's reassuring to learn we have such competent professionals doing excellent work here. And, kudos too to the cabin attendant.
the only way this could have gone better is if shadow 5 just happened to have a full bambi bucket but you cant have everything , 90 seconds for medics on site and the flight attendant having the forethought of knowing about the baggage compartment , wow
The Hop A Jet flight crew did a hell of a job not killing anyone on the ground. They put it on the freeway and did not hit any of those densely packed houses. That flight crew knew they were going to die but they did not kill anyone on the ground. That is the decision that every pilot has to make when he’s flying his airplane I will not eject I will not jump. I will fly my airplane to the crash and not kill anyone on the ground, that is my goal.
The flight attendant saved the passengers after the plane was put down… the entire crew was heroic.
Yes, after touchdown the aircraft's right wing struck a highway sign on double steel posts that can be seen on Google Maps. That collision with the sign spun the aircraft 90 degrees immediately into the interstate sound wall and resulted in the massive fireball and immediate death of both pilots. From that impact the aircraft continue to spin another 90 degrees until it was pointing North and stopped in its final position.
Engine oil pressure is the first indicator of an engine shut down on that model aircraft and engine configuration.
This is not the first time this model aircraft has had a dual engine shutdown on approach. There is an AD out on it.
No auto relight on that jet either. Once they shut down, your setting it down at that altitude.
Imagining that if there was inadvertent shut down due to thrust levers being brought to idle cut off, there would be a matter of seconds at least before the crew even realized what happened. The “startle factor” and disbelief at the engines quitting would possibly eat up any time that could be used to restarting the engines. They were pretty low, but a better time analysis might give more insight.
A yellowing or darkening in jet a is usually a slight oxidation either the fuel itself or tank and lines it is in.
While true it’s not mentioned how much of a yellow tint there was, and jet a can sometimes appear yellowish naturally
Thanks for behind-the-scenes copter insight!👍
If I have to go out I'd at least hope the response was a comprehensive and competent as those pilots, flight attendant, passengers, and passersby in traffic received. Everyone who responded did their jobs and that is worth celebrating.
The chopper crew proved that training and preparation are important, but the very nature of accidents means that when you arrive on scene flexible thinking is paramount.
I know it doesn't explain why both quit at the same time but, the CF34-3 Variable Geometry Inlet Guide Vane system is controlled by fuel pressure and should be partially closing during this phase of flight to prevent surges or compressor stalls. The CF34-8 series engine (with FADEC) had an Emergency AD a couple years ago pertaining to the VG IGVs.
Challenger 600 series aircraft does have fuel/oil heat exchangers to keep the fuel warm, so no prist is required....
The pax were damn lucky that the young lady in the back has the presence of mind to use the internal handle on the cargo door…The cargo is not a placarded/designated emergency exit on the CL-604. Prist is not required for the CL-604. The likelihood of the thrust levers being moved to Fuel off are remote. There is a non-EICAS QRH procedure for a dual engine failure. Ice in fuel is also VERY unlikely…Uel goes from the engine-driven fuel pump through a fuel/oil heat exchanger, and then the fuel filter. So, any fuel contamination(ice) isn’t possible with this airplane , and why Prist isn’t required. An EICAS message would accompany indication that the fuel filter bypass valve was open. If the engines flameout would NOT be indicated until the engine oil pressure goes below 25 psi…I have nearly 10-years experience on the CL-604/605/650, and the proximate cause of the action isn’t understood at this phase of the investigation.
Thank you.
Fuel cutoff position is possible as there is no secondary fuel cock as there is in other aircraft. The 604 is not a fadec aircraft, one teleflex per throttle and an additional for the T/R. If the gates were open when they put it into idle it could of shut down, or if they were not rigged correctly. Very very old design aircraft that relies on cables and rigging.
I havent flown the Challenger but I've flown its working class cousin, the CRJ.
It would be incredibly difficult to accidentally shut down both engines so I just dont know about that... maybe with some kind of misrigging slamming the levers to the stops might cause it?
Nightmare fuel.
Misrugging is specifically what the service bulletin Juan Browne brings up in his video - something about gearing could over time become misrigged and thrust levers would display idle but actually command shutoff.
7:27 Ah - there it is! You just identified the prior incident I thought might be related (descending too quickly from high alititude to a warm ambient air).
Thanks!
The nose gear came down on a vehicle. I understand from a person on the freeway behind the jet as it came down and actual dash cam video a
supports that.
Yeah, two vehicles were hit. One was the white pickup, the other was a black suv rental.
Back in 2019 there were two separate incidents involving Cessna Citations where DEF (Diesel Exhaust Fluid) was somehow introduced into the fuel load. I think the refueling truck had been used to pump DEF, but had not been flushed thoroughly prior to the jet fuel load, but I am not sure of the exact causality. But in that case, the DEF caused a crystallization of the fuel, contaminating filters and nozzles. Is DEF colored yellow?
Even though there seem to be oil pressure indications prior to the crash, I would doubt the oil systems of both engines are tied directly tied together in such a way as to create a single point of failure. Would a fuel contamination, resulting in a fuel starvation, wind up giving a low oil pressure indication as the engines spool down?
Another reason to hate def also from what I know def is clear and dries crystal like white
DEF is clear and crystallizes into white deposits.
JetA can be straw colored
@@FatGuyInaTruck the dispensing fuel truck would be immediately taken out of service and the fuel analyzed. If it was DEF it will be apparent quickly.
In the past those incidents (and there have been far too many) resulted from DEF being loaded in to the fuel truck’s Prist tank, as both liquids are “odorless” and colorless. Those typically displayed far earlier in flight though, and as others have said it would have been very apparent very early on in the investigation.
@@1919champ Not to mention there would have been issues with any other aircraft filled by the same truck
OSU airport is right across the street from my apartment. I watched that plane take off.
Thank you for update,this could have been really bad. Shame about the two pilots but they did a great job in very difficult circumstances. Final report will be very interesting . M
There’s some speculation that the throttle levers were moved beyond the idle stop into shutdown. Normally this requires lifting a latch to get them past the idle stop. And the low oil pressure would be the first CAS indication of an engine shutdown in landing config. Configured for landing the APU would be lit supplying electrical …and I think the bleed air but I’m not certain in that model. Getting even one relit in the time they had would have been iffy, assuming it was even possible. Be interesting to see what shape the throttles were in (ie worn stop, malfunctioning latch, otherwise malfunctioning …)
There was a AD regarding rigging the throttles where they could be at idle position and they would shut down.
CRJ 100/200 have main fuel line going back to both engines and APU have pass corrosion issues leading to major leaks.
I don't know peak hour there but where I live peak hour is slooow traffic so this may have been a life saver. Vehicles travelling at speed take longer to to stop and would have resulted in a lot of rear end collisions with gawkers watching the aircraft instead of the road in front of them.
I experienced something similar once when a vehicle was parked on the side if the freeway in peak hour and traffic was moving at less than 20kph (13mph) and the driver immediately just kept rubbernecking the crashed vehicle. 75 metres (82 yards / 240 feet) *passed* the vehicle the clown was still rubbernecking the crash site while a 200 metre (220 yard / 660 feet) gap had opened up in front of him due to vehicles accelerating back to the higher normal peak hour speed. As a commercial pilot on the ground I still *Aviate, navigate* and *communicate.* I did not take my eyes off the road space in front or the other sides of me. If I want to goggle crashed vehicles I can Google them in the safety of my armchair at home.
Commiseration to the pilot's families and *kudos* to the Flight Attendant. What a consummate professional they are. As the two host of this Channel can attest to *training saves lives.* I hope she is recognised by the aviation profession for her actions during this event. 👍👍
When flying a Beech jet years ago we caught a number of fuel trucks with empty Prist tanks.
So I talked with a 604 pilot and he said they usually fire up the APU going through 10k which this crew should have as they were planning on a pretty rapid turn around (quick turn) and reposition back to their home base at Ft. Lauderdale after dropping off these pax - might have been able to get one started? I don’t think they had the time
Those are the schmucks that maintence hates-- no fkn reason to fire that thing up at 10k and trash the empenage with soot. In the patern/ final or runway turnoff turnoff is the norm
It hit a truck and an SUV. These people were all interviewed. It happened at 3:15 PM. That is not rush hour.
Any time of the day I-75 is rush hour!
To bwalkers comment. I’m typed in the airplane. We don’t always put continuous ignition on during takeoff and landing unless there’s turbulence or heavy precip. I can see the captains arm while reaching around and under the throttles bumping the idle stop levers up enough to pull the throttles past idle to cut off. With continuous ignition on they possibly could’ve reignited the engines.
they misidentify the flaps with the power levers, this just happened in india last year. There is no way both engines shutdown at the same time through fuel failure or engine failure, even bird strike wont knock out both engines at the same time. Its an open and shut case what happened.
Theres a big difference between "Fuel Exhaustion" and "Fuel Starvation" and that is not discussed here, nor in many other videos.
How many fuel tanks does that aircraft have? Miss managing the fuel can cause fuel starvation with plenty of fuel left on board.
While that may not be the cause it needs to be discussed because it's one of the very few things that can cause a dual engine flameout at the same time.
I remember that the cf34 had a pneumonic device for HOTLOP... High Oil Temp/Low Oil Pressure. I have 6,000hrs driving them and I can't imagine what would destroy both at once.
Did they recover the CVR, i know they recovered the FDR?
If there's been a known issue with pilots inadvertently shutting the engines down, how come it has not been properly addressed? This is just sad.
Don't see anyone floating the possibility that this was a deliberate act.
They were drifting right at touchdown. That’s why they hit the wall.
God bless the first responsders!! 🙏
you slip into theese incedents and sometimes you realize afterward, "this time we really were the difference this time".
Went to a aerobatic show crash years back with the fire department crash was back into the woods pilot died they say he blacked out during a stunt. Either way something that will stick with ya your whole life seeing it. Wonder how big the scene got and chain of command in that situation.
Deep intel? Alright!
Discoloration of the fuel due to heat? Just a thought.
Reminds me of the Kathmandu crash where the check-pilot accidentally feathered to props, because he didn't look, and he is usually in the Left seat. His muscle-memory got it wrong. Didn't notice the feathered props until too late, all died! The check-pilot thought he had moved the flaps. NOPE!☠
I'm pretty sure they are going to find the pilot accidentally shut the engine down. There is a way for that to happen if the pilots were reaching across each other.
There is a AD for this aircraft where the throttle rigging goes off and the engines would shut down while at flight idle position.
Did they spray water all over a crash with leaking fuel...putting water into the leaking areas....and the fuel sample?
Just an FYI…. I flew Rescue and MEDEVAC in the Army, and HEMS in civilian life, and it was great a county element was nearby and could self-launch to the scene. Unfortunately, most Helicopter EMS (HEMS) are prohibited from volunteering and self-launching to a scene of any kind. I’m not sure if it has to do with liability, but most services require a request from an agency, and are limited to transport only.
This was Collier County Sheriff's helicopter.
It was the Sherriff's Department not just a hospital EMS.
They hit a pick up and a hatchback with two women in it, took out the back window.
You need to talk to a Challenger pilot to find out about this specific aircraft...
1/2 OZ in 16 OZ of Jet A is 3.3%
I researched NET-JETS, never seen anything bad, I'd fly NET-JETS, if I needed a charter.
Can’t see it being gelled fuel for the fact that those engines not only have a liquid to liquid cooler/ fuel heater/oil cooler, but also a fuel heater which gets bleed air for warming. Not only that airplane uses post FCU fuel for motive flow, means warmed fuel is used to go back into the wings for jet pumps to move fuel towards the inboard sumps then to the center tank. Hated seeing this, those guys saved lives at the expense of theirs. As a maintenance guy, challengers are very reliable aircraft but can bite you in the ass. One more point to ponder, Jet fuel at MSY comes in two varieties, Shell which is yellow, and macro which comes out clean and clear. We had a fuel truck and ran over a million gallons thru it over 12 years and the yellow fuel stands out because we had to test it as it was coming off the truck. Doesn’t mean it any better or worked than the other just yellow. Prist by itself is clear but mixed with fuel turns a yellowish tint. Microbial growth looks like black dirt until you rub it between your fingers then turns a little yellow-ish. Maybe depending on where you get fuel. Biobore is also a little yellow, used for microbe treatment.
8:27 County Shadow 5 rescue helicopter pilot
PPL ≠ People, PPL = Private Pilot.
czcams.com/video/Yt16Z8ML21k/video.html
Mishap? Is that what you call it when 2 pilots die in a crash?
Another good word would be accident, problem, issue. Pilots are human beings and accidentally/inadvertently shutting the engines down would definitely fit the criteria of a mishap
@@stephen_crumley I would think that fatal accidents would require a word that's stronger than "mishap." A mishap is when you drop a catsup bottle on the floor. Or pilots accidentally/ inadvertently shutting the engines down but managing to land safely.
I want to say I think they hit storm drain inlet i’m gonna look the next time. I’m on my way to Miami. and I’ve been wondering how the helicopter got there so quick
They did not. They hit a street sign then the sound wall - the prelim report states both.
Birds
FOHE failure of some sort?
Sounds like a maintainer did something wrong to both engines.?
NTSB is looking at either bad fuel or the pilots inadvertently moved the throttles from fight ilde to cutoff.
Policy dictates that the same Tech does NOT work on both engines
Old news. I read about this several days ago.
You read the personal account from the rescue helicopter crew? Where?
It’s very difficult to imagine both engines quitting, and it NOT being a fuel issue.
Not difficult at all. Those engines are fed from their own separate collector tanks. Very unlikely a fuel issue would take out both engines within one second.