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The Trouble with Grayscale
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- čas přidán 12. 08. 2024
- This video is all about painting in grayscale. Discussing some of the benefits of it, and the issues you will run into when trying to go from grayscale to color.
Everything was painted in Corel Painter.
Ahmed Aldoori's CZcams channel: / revolutions34
Feel free to visit my patreon at: / sinix
And check out a trial of Corel Painter 2018 here: store.corel.com/1103/cookie?a...
Important comment!! After some thinking, I've decided to just edit out the spaceship and color wheel portion of the video. It's simply not accurate information and it's not super relevant to the point of the video anyway. Sorry for the awkward splice! I'll be making a quick extra video about the specific topic I removed because I spent some actual time properly understanding it.
I thought I was having delusions. Searched for that specific part for 10 minutes before I check the comments XD
The thing that is for sure is if you click on the same spot of the color picker you will always get the same value whatever the hue. It will just not feel right when applied because what we perceive as a nice red is darker than the nice yellow otherwise it just looks like a pinkish light
since the value is garanteed (everytime you click the same spot on your color selector you get the very same value no matter blue or yellow) you can then rationally pick your color. This is not based on perception.
For example you KNOW when you go closer to the black spot your value is gonna get dark and vice versa, so then you can compose with color AND value in mind at the same time.
"you click the same spot on your color selector you get the very same value no matter blue or yellow" No that's not true, it doesn't work like that. It's the same mistake the video makes.
Yes it does. I did it and once you desaturate your layer, it is exactly the same. You can't tell what was blue or yellow.
I can't deny it. Truly this is a tricky subject.
Anyway, ended up staring at the selector while changing the hue and obviously it felt way more luminous on yellows than violet...
All in all personnally, when I want it to be colored, I begin with color. Otherwise I try to switch to color very soon when I got values in check...
Thanks for the explenation !
we have two spheres squeezed together... nice
So many boobs and butt tutorials in this channel, subscribe
bols
Could be anything haha
ahahahaha i was wondering if he was insinuating something or if my mind was in the gutter
@@Darkkitty213
Could be anything... Nice.
In my classes I get questions about this topic all the time. Now I've got a video to point to. Great work, and thanks!
marco here omg :O
another great artist in the comment section
If you have to send students to a video then you should stop teaching.
@@latrolettteeeeeee having the perspective of other artist is another way of learning things.
All of us artist started looking at the work of other people, learning from their work. dont be a prick and narrow minded you're obviously not an artist so gtfo
@@latrolettteeeeeee naaaa not really, sometimes people out there have already spent ages mulling over and thinking about a specific problem and then concisely put together a vid... thats why there are tons of videos of differing lengths sometimes explaining something in 2 seconds and sometimes in 30 mins and between those 2 examples you hav vids of varying qualities some with people in the back ground explaining some with text in the vid some with fast forwarded footage.... basically some vids have much more detail some are just the right amount for what you need at the time..... Ive just had a class and i dont blame the teacher for this, just circumstance and structure of class..... the class was about colour she spent the last 15 mins of a 3hour class to touch upon subject and still didnt have enough time to go through her routine with all the students.... i did my own out of class research, the vid was much more informative than what the tutor had gone through showing examples and what not, the vid was 20-30 minutes.... now this also backs up sorta your point as that is exactly what i was thinking at the end of class but i also knew that she had her hands tied.... theres only so much you can teach and learn in a specified class in a number of specified hours, i couldve been selfish and derailed her class going into minute detail about my specific needs but didnt... i did extra curricular research and pasted the vid into our class fb page she thumbed it up lol.... i shouldnt have to do her work for her i know but it is what it is
if you have photoshop or any other program with a *Gradient Map* then grayscale typically ends up looking a lot better
the reason why grayscale images look so dull if you just overlay a colour is because shadows and lights will be a less saturated version of the color you picked.
with a gradient map you can select one colour to every value in the painting and even make shadows a lighter colour or lights darker without ruining the work you did on the grayscale image.
one thing i recomend while using gradient maps however is to only use them in big chunks of your drawing and not making it to detailed, you can always have 3 - 5 gradient maps in one drawing without it looking to clogged with colour but any more than that is waay to much and you're just better off changing the hue manually
Edit: Forgot to mention, working in grayscale is often a lot quicker than working with colour from the start, with that technique you focus on one thing at a time; layout, then proportions, then value, then colour. if you were to focus on all of these things in one go you are more likely to do mistakes and jump back and forth between different things trying to fix something that didnt have to be fixed if you had layed all your attention on that one bit at the start. A lot of professionals work in this way to get consistent work and save time
I've been painting with color since I started, but recently tried grayscale as a style experiment. I immediately started having the exact problems you mention where color balance became really wonky and unpredictable, and while I think it works fine for certain styles (as well as doing color tests), I think I'll just go back to reincorporating color painting into my more refined art process today just because it's much easier to control my color balance.
It does mean missing out on controlling my shapes though, which is a benefit of grayscale; you can mess with color values independent of the shapes or lighting, so maybe I'll start using a mix of both for different things.
Grisaille underpainting was used by the old masters. Its value lies in its ability to portray an inner glow that is very difficult to achieve with fully opaque color paintings. Check out the contemporary artist Eric Wert, who works in the grisaille technique, albeit in a traditional medium, which I do believe can be studied and applied into a digital medium.
I feel like I just watched a Ted talk. A Ted talk on the rocket science involved in brain surgery.
SameOldRocket one of those was actually at me school
"Two spheres squeezing together... Nice" LOL had me going.
I loved that you mentioned Ahmed. You two are my two favorite youtube artists.
"Color will become a playground you will explore endlessly." That just snapped something inside, and I have this fever to dive deeper into color. No joke, you have good intentions with helping others, and that is the other part that inspired me. I am glad to have found your channel, thank you.
LOOOL. When you combined the two examples of lighting I literally went "OOOHHHH" cause I never thought of that when painting!!
You blew my mind with the explanation of different lightings !! Amazing explanation !
That was the first video of yours that I have seen. The concepts were really effectively explained! Thank you!
a trick is to use gradient map filters first that way you won't get into the area of other values, i can start with color or with grayscale it all depends on how complex the scene is going to be. the more complex and the more important values and lighting is then the more likly it is to me to start out with gray scale.
Hello Sinix,
Thank you so much for your videos. You work is incredibly nourishing, I really enjoyed all of your videos, but this one gave me the keys that I have always been looking for.
It helps a lot to go further with more confidence.
Thank you for everything
That's how I usually do my traditional painting, starting with a grayscale underpainting to get proportions right and then going over it not with flat tones, but treating it as if I were just starting with color and not just doing a color overlay. As long as you work enough layers you can still get those brighter colors because youre basically just redoing the old painting lol. That being said, I like your idea of just starting out with colors for digital, Im getting the feeling that with what you said about how digital works more with lights on a screen you really cant just treat it like traditional. What I've found recently though as Im relying less on value and more on color is that the value shifts dont actually have to be that prominent as long as you have temperature shifts. I felt like the latter half of your video showed that pretty well and is an important lesson for people to consider, because when youre first learning with black and white you'll completely miss out on all of that.
i always appreciate short videos filled to the brim with useful information. cant be arsed to sit and watch someone for 20+ minutes saying the same thing.
i really didnt know this at all. i thought grayscale was just what u did for values and then color on different layer with no probs. it never actually worked out that way for me because of the overlap issue u addressed. very great video thanks!
When it comes to painting skin, and hair, I swear your such an inspiration to me. Also, the way you draw people, it's just so beautiful, and detailed (to me at least lol). Also, I'm gettin' mad Björk vibes from the model.👌
Love the videos as usual. The anatomy videos really help, but it would be really cool if you did a video tying them all together on simple tips to make full bodies and poses. :)
Yep, there will be one on that at some point.
Yes please!
I find it hard to find good tutorials, but this one is really helpful. Thank you!
Your videos make me happy
That was sick, quick and simple but I learned a ton. I'm currently practicing my values and did find them a bit lacking. This video explains why quite well. Thanks for this
If anyone ever wants to watch a really good in-depth process from b/w to color. Mike Lim "Daarken" uploads full length illustrations and character designs on his gumroad. He does b/w painting, overlay colors and then kinda repaints those colors on a normal layer. Cool process and one I use since it's faster for me.
i Highly recommend Scott Robertson tutorials on youtube and/or his book how to render.
HOLLY CRAP MAN YOU JUST EXPLAINED SOMETHING II'VE BEEN TRYING TO UNDERSTANDO FOR LIKE 2 YEARS IN A FEW MINUTES AND NOW EVERYTHING IS CLEAR, THANK YOU SO MUCH
I really love this video. I always feel this subtle pressure because I never really dedicated time to coloring in grayscale. Like I'm doing something "wrong" and like people will tell me I don't understand lighting, shadows, and form if I don't do so without color. I think I am doing just fine. Of course, if an art teacher tells me they think I can improve on my form and color from using grayscale and critique my work so I can get better, I will do it. But I feel I can understand shadows and form very well while using color, especially when you consider points made in this video. I feel like working off of the colors immediately not only helps me understand the form better, but makes it more obvious and prominent to me when i make mistakes because the coloring will look "off". (With this in mind, I still do pencil sketches and try to show depth and shading by shading with a pencil, but it's nothing I specifically dedicate time to doing)
Total Trash Mammal
Maybe you could try a hybrid approach, and use different colors for different values or something? I like to draw with earthtones. I use black for the dark shadows, sepia for the next step up, then sanguine, then a flesh tone, then white. That way I don't get bored when I focus on the values.
I know this video is a little old but I've recently experimented with grayscale+gradient maps for coloring in Photoshop which has been a really amazing experience. Probably my best experience with coloring/grayscaling ever.
This is probably the best explanation to this ive ever heard. I always thought my grey-scale painting looked so weird compared to my colored ones from the start to finish of a piece. I never understood why all these professional artists used a grey-scale base. I guess i kinda "skipped" that method altogether? Idk i just can't do it, it looks really bad when i eventually add color on top. As you said the perception of which colors go where is very off. So starting from color to begin with helps so much more for me
Two spheres squeezing together... Nice 😂😂😂
"n i c e"
@@nickstar437 a word you can hear
nice
nice
nice
great video, thanks for teaching us with this one!
Something I’ve done before is doing the flat colors on my character, then do a complete grayscale of my character, and then overlay that and use it as a reference for doing shadows in color on the flat color.
All great points! Some things to keep in mind...
- The colors will appear different depending on layer type...ie Color, overlay, brighten etc. Certain colors *coughyellowcough* will be either much brighter or darker than other colors with the same layer type. To achieve the desired effects when going from grey scale to color you almost have to use several layer types.
- Sinix mentions blending issues when darkening values in the grey scale layer to achieve the right values when adding a color layer. One work around for this is to make a whole other layer specifically to blend in these edges. Though it might seem redundant (why not just paint in color to begin with) I've found that as a beginner grey scale really does help. It did for me anyway...
Great job with the lighting and greyscale painting here! Keep up the awesome work!
I get the impression from watching a few other tutorials that painting in greyscale and then adding colour (.... In fact alot of digital techniques) are a result of clients potentially asking for changes after its done and this just makes colour changes super easy.
Thank you for explaining this in such a simple way. Hope to see more great tutorials from you.
This video shaped the way I think about value sources. Love it.
That was the best explanation of ten dollar words I’ve ever heard! Great video!
Great examples and explanations, I’ll def be referring to your ambient occlusion definition as I study! Thanks for the vid
Great stuff. I'm self-taught, so to speak, and I've always wondered about how color effects the values. I knew that it did, but I never heard it addressed directly, or any workarounds. Thanks!
i definitely consider my art focus to be portraits. i call myself a portrait artist, i’ve mastered them. but you know what: i’ve never ever actually colored a human. I’m thinking about it, i’ve never colored any of my portraits. I think I want to give it a shot.
I figured that would be the problem everyone talks about grisaille. That has super easy soucion. Both in oil, acrylic and watercolor, what is called "false grisaille" is made, which consists of making the dark ones in cold tones and the light tones in warm ones (or else you only do the dark ones in cold ones, then when passing color you tone with the warm ones), in digital it is even easier, you change the dark tones to cold (violet or blue) and the warm ones to yellow or orange. After that you go to color and you will see the HUGE difference in the color at the end of doing it with grisaille. i hope this help you.
i paint with values first and use blending modes and clipping masks to color, i find it very effective and i really like the results
All of your videos are sooo helpful, thank you!!🦋
Pretty unrelated to the topic, but man that girls face is so... appealing? Entrancing? I don't know. Love the curves and softness of the features, and the stylized lean towards anime simplified shapes is cool.
I enjoy coloring in gray scale because Im terrible with color and sometimes they come out to muddy or the values are way to light, once you master how to use layer modes (overlay, multiply, shine, etc) it really helps. I always notice my colors are so much more vibrant and make sense!
You explained lighting so well, thank you man :)
Good job tackling this subject. Not many others give it a fair swing. Pretty goot.
I haven't experimented with it too much but it seems like the overlay blend mode would do exactly what you want. If you recreate that gray box from the 4minute mark on one layer, you can colorize it with blue and yellow to look exactly like your example if you use overlay. Also from what I can tell, the version with the hues having inherently different values is actually the correct one, since different hues DO actually have different values. It doesn't have anything to do with the digital aspect of it.
One cool study tip I do for understanding colour is to copy classical paintings using only gouache and minimal pencil guidelines. This helps one to adjust and understand colour in a short space of time.
Is that Ahmed dancing at the end? wow....! Priceless
I totally must do this two spheres ambient occlusion + diffuse lighting exercise. Also different shapes and different configurations. Simple but teaches a lot about rendering values.
This is SO true! I wish i had seen this video when i started to paint on a tablet.
Beautiful work, man. I'll definitely give grayscale a try. Haven't had a lot of success the other way just yet!
5:16 an easy remedy is to (since you’re already painting) combined all finished greyscale and colour layers and paint over them to mix properly. I usually prefer to paint in all colour personally
Anthony Jones has a great video about values called "My Thoughts - Color", My main grip with this video is the expectation that only a color layer overtop the values is enough. Usually this is the a midway point where you'd use gradient maps/colorbalance layers, then paint normally overtop.
Hey, great vid! I would be very interested to see a focused video on "getting your values right". I've heard that term a lot, but have had a hard time finding clear teaching on it. Thanks, you rock!
check out scott robertsons free tutorials and his book how to render
Very well put, as always.
Great job and Thank you!
Thank you so much for your videos, greatly helps and very informative, awesome work!
200k Special is closer with each video, I am excited :D
This was the most accurate explanation of ambient occlusion and local value a ever saw. XD
love the video. I definitely need to practice this more.
I aspire to be as good as you, if not better one day. Your videos inspire me and I learn so much from them. Thank you so much for being both an example and a goal of me to achieve!
It's been 3 years! How's your progress?
@@Gabriel-jg5wh About to graduate university and become an art teacher lol. It's been a wild ride, but I look forward to continuing my growth.
@@ineedclosure4163 year update?
Really love this piece
so much information in 7 minutes, nice job!
Excellent video!!!👏🏽👍🏽👩🏽🎨 I have been feeling and seeing the trouble with Greyscale. I’m so glad you pointed this out. I sometimes mess up values but I prefer coloring normally. Because colorized greyscale always looks blah to my tetrachrome eyes. 😝
Using gradients, then making an “adjustment layer” on top of everything also seems like a good option imo
You aren't showing the values at 4:30 you are just dragging the saturation slider. The blue really is much darker value than the yellow. Some colours on the wheel look darker and lighter because they are, it's just the way you converted it to greyscale that isn't showing what you think it is. I love your stuff but I think this one does more harm than good with misinformation.
There's some great methods of taking greyscale to colour like starting off with a gradient map, blending modes that don't completely lock the value, or even hue shifting the b&w image and using it as an underpainting is a lot of fun. Just using the color blend mode alone doesn't give good results.
truth.
so make a video on it! seriously! I didn't understand anything you were just saying I just wanted to be a good painter 😢
no name same people always say what’s wrong but never how to do it right-
@Eeee no need to rely on gradient map, you can do manually by picking color then check the pic to grayscale to control the value, picking right color is slso a skill.
Gawd, so many concepts to learn. Will I ever catch up to you all Dx
Learned an absolute ton dude. Thanks a lot!
This was so great. Thank you very much
great video, sinix. really, that was very useful
I think a good approach is to start wtih grayscale but with very loose strokes, not getting into too much detail on that phase, just trying to nail the general lighting and values. Then colorize it and refine details afterwards. That way you're not retracing your steps with color, which can be very annoying and time-consuming.
man, that was the best explanation on the history of art
This really helped a lot!! Thank you !!
Check your values... A good advice for artists AND the modern world!
Something I like to do is that to make values more smoother, I take my art and put it under a grayscale. (take a photo and make it B&W on Canvas) I see what needs to be smooth out more. But I do this all in color of course.
very helpful explanation about shadows as well thankss!!!!!
Always so useful, the examples and articulation of words make understand a lot :)
(sorry for bad english)
6:35 I didn't know how much I needed to see Ahmed dancing to DDR till now LOL.
Thanks, Sensei!
You are now an inspirational to me🙏
Very insightful
important video! thanks!
Great video! I've always been wondering if its really a good thing to start with gray scale in my work process. As soon as i I'm my value color skill I'll follow your advise
I don’t even attempt grayscale because I know I’m just gonna paint over it with one color and make all the shadows just gray lol but this makes me want to try it. Thanks!
Great video! I learned a lot from it. I draw using pencil mainly, and a lot of the things I do (experimenting, trying things from observation, trial and error) to make my drawings look 3D are starting to make sense (after your explanation in the first two minutes, which was great!), but I have a few questions. I'm thinking of shifting to colored pencils and watercolors, and I'm really excited because I believe I've learned a lot from my recent big pencil drawings, and I look forward to exploring the new mediums! But coloring a grayscale digitally is different than coloring a grayscale traditionally, naturally. What are your tips?
THANK YOU SO MUCH
I just recently had a long convo with a photographer who explained me how much there really is to converting color and value into a digital format. It was only a scratch on the surface, but man, that stuff is complicated.
This is so helpfull thanks!
Thank you a ton this explains alot haha. Ive been missing some steps
question, isn't it better to use a gradient map before coloring a greyscale painting ?
Late reply here obviously but i think the issue here is that it isnt an issue to work grayscale but rather a preference. What doesnt come across well in this video is that you cant have the necessary color variations when you can absolutely change that with gradient maps as well as blending options which I myself prefer to look into and this gives you the flexibility to adjust everything at any point before finalizing an image. It is now 2020 (although theres an older video but isnt highlighted) and you can find a video on Marc Brunettes method of using gradient maps and its perfectly acceptable. To conclude, imo if you learn your tools you can exploit a variety of systems within photoshop and not have to rely on traditional techniques without having to sacrifice knowledge of theory and saving the heartache of having to step back all the time
U can use color balance before adding color .
I’m glad I watched all the way to the end. Watching the dance was totally worth it. How do you pronounce his name again?
i do like the way you speak, like beavis' teacher. this is cool
sinix videoooo!
To this we have to add the difficultie intrinsically linked to the media your using, starting from grey then adding color is impossible with ink/watercolors for instance.
THE OUTRO WITH AHMED IM DYING
Wow this inspires me to do better on my art videos on my channel. 😊
Funny ... this is _precisely_ the topic I'm currently exploring (noob level), and then this video pops up in my recommendations ;)
Sinix is such a cool name. Kinda like Kilroy.
Thank you very much :)
Hello! This is super helpful! But if I may ask: What brushes are you using (or you recommend) to paint with values? I've been watching some other CZcams tutorials, but I just can't figure (and it isn't explicitly stated) which ones to use to achieve the effect you're getting at the start this video. Any help is super appreciated! Thanks!