Your humor is only surpassed by the usefulness of content. I was cracking up at some of your comments. An air compressor…. what a great demonstration. I wish I could have all the vocalists I mix watch this… thanks!!
The sarcasm is strong in this one - I love it! Are you sure you’re not British! 😄 I’m a FoH mixer/engineer who also works as an outside broadcast sound engineer, so I have good experience setting up (and mixing) Coles mics in commentary positions. The Coles is an interesting beast and despite what might appear to the contrary here with background noise, they work very well in practice. Their main aim is to maintain speech intelligibility in loud environments, not necessarily remove all background noise. Polar response is “bi-directional” (wording from the official spec), which explains why it picks up a lot from the rear in this particular test given the proximity of the compressor. Typically the back of the mic is pointing at a TV monitor, a window, out into the football field or at a co-commentator. There are a lot of interesting design aspects, like the top pop shield to prevent noise from breathing down the nose, other shields prevent lip noise, and plosives just don’t seem to be a thing with them. As regards low gain, the people using them tend to be very loud! We test them by essentially yelling into them as loud as we can, because this is what’s going to happen when something interesting goes off on the track or pitch. They're also typically used with specialist commentary boxes which have the required clean gain available. Glensound are by far the most popular (in the UK at least).
Very cool and thank you! Yes they do have a clear voice sound to them and don't have that extra boominess and p pop plosive issue. And having the lip guard really instinctively keeps your lips very evenly placed the mic good stuff!
You see the Coles still quite often in Europe as a sportscaster mic. In football(soccer) stadiums, track meetings etc. While some broadcasters have evolved to arguably better mics, the Coles really has a recognisable sound when used in the midst of a stadium filled with chants.
Yeah and it has an open sound that sounds less constrained compared to a regular mic year close to. That said it does let in background noise more but I do like the sound of it
Mic technique. 20+ years ago, Tony Bennett, great seats. Could not believe what I saw. Been at this since the early 70's, thought I'd seen everything. Nope ... I was mesmerized by his stunning mic technique, an entire different level ... as well as how he controlled the attention of all in attendance. His varying proximity control in concert with his dynamics, kept the peak energy level ... right where it sounded fantastic. He'd use storytelling and quiet the crowd simply by his own level and control, then 𝙋𝙐𝙉𝘾𝙏𝙐𝘼𝙏𝙀 that with amazing power from him, and the accompanying piano, bass and drums. It was great.
Sm58 has very narrow pickup pattern and it's not very sensitive, thus without gain compensation (that Dave told us he's using in this clip) SM58 isn't very forgivable to off axis sources or large distances. SM58 is an artists microphone. It needs you to know how to use it. :)
@@Mtaalas what I was intrigued with is that the om7 seems especially designed for background rejection on loud stages. It stays clear and articulate even with lips-on-the-grille close talking. We have an om2 and I noticed that it loses huge amounts of volume at distance, which is an advantage if you use stage wedges and need to avoid feedback. In my experience, an sm58 needs 4 inches or so of distance to clean up and sound articulate and balanced. The om7 is hypercardioid (very narrow), 58 is cardioid (wider). You're very correct about performers needing to learn how to work the mic. And not just any mic -- whatever mic they happen to be using. They don't all respond the same.
SM58 didnt fare too well. Also, its an obvious one but still worth noting; there's such a nice measure of added clarity/articulation to addressing the mic at an inch or two ... ie., when the lips are free to do their thing. I appreciated the added air "air" from the compressor discharge, it facilitated better comparo of coverage by freq. Wonderful video. These hands on analogous explorations are always thought inspiring.
in my experience Mic technicque is absolutly important. But the best thing somebody can do with what ever technique they use, if they use it consistently
As usual, a very interesting video. It was especially interesting to hear the difference in background sound rejection of the various mics. Thank you so much for all the great videos you make and would love to know the threshold, attack, release and ratio settings for the air compressor. 😊
i think the coles intentionally captures the ambience of the perspective of the commentator. but its designed in a way that the voice sits over it when held at the right distance. so when you are watcing on TV its meant to sound like you are sitting where the commentator is watching it live. 1 mic bam job done. genius design.
Sometimes what works best depends on the mic being used. My biggest issues are people who think the mic can hear them fine when they hold it below their heart. These are usually folks that have LITTLE experience using microphones. I usually give them some coaching to keep the mic near your mouth!!
Super interesting test! I wonder why the coles is used for F1. The rejection seems a lot worse, but it does sound quite clear at that distance. Maybe it's just because it's easier to enforce consistent technique?
You know I don't really know. But those ribbon mics do have a really nice realistic sound and isn't muddy or murky like the dynamic mics up close, On the other hand it could be some old school BBC contract kind of thing tied into vintage racing Good old boys
Good stuff, thanks. Would like to see a Sennheiser 935e compared in the mix. Those always were easy to get a good sound with even if the performer wasn't a pro.
I tell vocalist to treat the mic like someones ear up close to whisper further back to belt it, only helps if they listen though....So this poses the question do musicians that listen really exist????
Or if it's a bad singer: "Treat the mic like someone's anus... that's right, wipe it... now back away, turn around, go... and try to forget you were ever here."
Nothing more important than a good-sounding compressor. :-D Would love to see the sE V7 in this setting. And just for comparison some condenser mic such as the AKG C7.
If I remember well, they used the Coles during the Soccer World Cup in 2010 in South Africa. The whole stadium was playing Vuvuzela and the speakers on TV were very difficult to isolate from the stadium noise.
It would be interesting to hear a comparison of different vocal mics with someone playing drums behind you. At the church I mix at we started off with Beta 58s and then upgraded to KSM8s. I find they have much better rejection of the cymbals, so I tend to prefer them for vocalists.
Yeah I probably don't have a way to get a drummer behind me in my house but I might be able to put something together like a blasting speaker behind me or something
Hey Dave, love your work! Please tell me, where can I get an H3K backdrop like yours? Worked with H3ks and XL4s for over 20 years, really miss those days :)
Yes. Proper microphone technique is very important for people using handheld mics. Improper is cupping the cardioid producing howling feedback. I had that just now for Gaz's Rockin' Blues at Notting Hill Carnival. People with crazy behaviour with handheld mics. Not ideal, improper and thoughtless non-technique. I had feedback. It was a bit like those protest shows in the '70 where the mic occasionally squeaks and rings. These people pulled me in last minute, there had been some disasters, and I have realised that I need to come up with something serious for these guys. It was hard work. Plus I had the mixing desk behind the speakers... so I could not hear anything direct, I had to monitor subgroups off a hotspot to get the balance. Very hard gig. The turnout was nice and big, as well. Add to that a punch up involving a bunch of people... so no line or sound check... Oh it was improper alright.
Reminds me of volunteering to run sound for a benefit involving a dozen bands with no sound checks between other than test123 and Hey turn up my monitor. Oh, I was also using their equipment, a conglomerate from several of the groups. It turned out fine, I actually got some work from it.
@@TomCee53 mixing from behind a 15ft stack of RCF line units and 21 inch bins, and hearing only the reflections off the terraced houses opposite meant I was mixing mostly by meters. I can do that but it's very, very scary. Like flying instruments-only in a storm. A couple of points of the show I went out and had a listen, and I got it *juicy*. It was hard, but we had the wattage. It ended up good. Possibly some of the best sound I have got for a reggae or ska band, at moments. You work hard, you get results. Subgroup balance monitoring is actually a damn good policy, and I like a little hotspot for soloing things into. Behringer X32 will let you do quite a few things that would be improbable in analogue on the timescale, it was *brutal*, setting up everything channel by numbers and rigging mics onto forklift pallets turned into handrail for staging, with 40 police crowding out the backstage and my assistant sound tech - nathan the trojans' keys player - bleeding from the nose, and hemmed in by cops, and a bunch of crew got carted off by the police. It was *hardcore*, not just last minute. Nathan played the show with a broken nose - re-broken from a site accident a few weeks ago. So... I had to improvise, and set out the stage so I could mix without the wireless login, from out in the audience. No details... so I've got to push the faders physically. I did a very clever trick for the brass section. I just stuck an ORTF pair at the front of the stage and let them get stuck in. Both close mics and a "whole band picture", all on one source, and it sounded beefy compressed to f***, ducking against the brass, and that helped with their monitors. I got it to work after the sax players stopped slapping the mics complaining they can't hear - the monitors were all on the corners of the stage. I am not stupid... when I got the source cooked up right it sounded seriously good, and I could tell the band loved it. They just settled in and sounded tight as. The ORTF crusher at the front would also override vocal mic feedback, as well. It had a nice phase response. It is a keeper - that is something I learned working with Indian classical ensembles at the South Bank Center. These situations force you to invent things, and the solutions that work are priceless. Improper? I like it.
This comment is my trademark BTW, but when I get a person on stage that disrespects the mic, I just tell them " the microphone is an ice cream cone, not a Pen15 "..... That usually gets them to behave for a minute :)
yeah, I also saw the F1 announcers using those, but now seeing your comparisons I'm not impressed with it reducing other ambient sounds .... however I do like that it seems hard to use wrong for a hand held mic, so I can see why an audio tech would want to apply their use ..... as with my own sound work, I'd get a lot of vocalist that were new to the live stage; they might have only seen videos or something of someone using a mic in a way that "looked cool" or just no clue on how much effect the holding of a mic can have on their vocals - what I'd tell them to do is to *pretend that the microphone is someone's ear* so if you are loud and yelling you could give it a little more space, but then be close for quiet whispers, and to never block the back of the mic head as that has the reverse effect they might be after to pick up other sounds better vs having them cancel out when they hit the back of the diaphragm(sorta, without getting too complex about pickup patterns and omnidirectional) sing thru the mic, instead of just into it or cupped in your hand nearby or shoved in your mouth ...but pretty neat to see some people 'get it' and start using the mic field to their advantage, so I could give them more gain and monitors to go nuts with
... I mean... it's kinda spelled out on the polar response diagram of each microphone... But then again, most vocalists probably don't know how to find a spec sheet nor read a polar response diagram.
@@DaveRat Yeah, that's kinda outside the scope of a spec sheet. There are so many external factors at play that it'd be hard to document in a spec sheet.
I took each relevant audio segment and adjusted the gain so each audio segment had the same peak level. Kind of emulating what an engineer would do with a signal and set the game pot to be a few dB below peak. And the sound you hear in the recording would be pretty similar to what PFL in the various channels would sound like after the gains were set
I solve 99% of this with a headset microphone... if the performer is an amateur, If at all possible, I'll give them headset. SM58 only for those who I KNOW can handle it properly and if there's nothing else available. On2 SM58 _always_ as a spare if something breaks. I think more people should learn how to put on headset properly and use them more, we'd get better audio in "talking heads" shows. :)
Hey Dave hope you're doing well! I am a live sound noob but have a fair amount of experience in-studio. I have a question that I am not even sure I know how to ask. How come when I got to concerts- they are loud, but piercing in the upper mids. It often seems like there is no consideration to the human ears sensitivity in that range and the role too much plays in masking energy elsewhere... Like I said I am arguably still green when it comes to mixing and I definitely am green with live sound so I'm just curious as to what I'm perceiving. Is it due to limitations in tuning the room throughout? Or is it sonic preference of the person running sound? Thanks for all you do for sound community!
Yeah, that's an issue. My opinion is that it is because the live engineers are weeks or months into a tour and their ears have dulled and they have not developed a system to compensate and maintain a good reference I did a vid on reference points while mixing and keeping the mix balanced and not painful is an important skill
Yes, I found that rather shocking since noisy environments is the use case that this mic was designed for. I have a Coles 4038 and love it. I'd thought of getting one of these Coles lip mics, and I still might, but it would be for its sound rather than noise rejection. It seems to me like the SM58 actually has the best off-axis rejection of the four.
@@alandavidson8311Remember that they'er almways used when you have two or more commentators right next to each other, projecting very loudly. They have a figure 8 pickup, so the real noise cancellation they're known for is in isolating the voices from each other, not from the ambient sound!
Not the purpose of the test but the SM58 sounded kinda horrible compared the other three. Interesting as the lead singer in my band uses an SM58. I'll have to try him with some other things. I already switched from an SM58 to an AKG190E we both play guitar when we sing so we can't cup the mic and look really cool (joke), just as well 'cos the AKG190E has shocking handling noise! The Coles sounded amazingly clear, shame about the low output of yours according to specs I can find online the Coles should be about 1/2 as sensitive as an SM58. If yours is lower that maybe get an exchange from your supplier? It is supposed to be good at noise rejection, I think yours may well not be behaving right.I'm learning a lot from your vids bud. I also like the way you say 'Alright' at the beginning as an enquiring greeting like a British person 🙂
Take a closer look at the specifications for the Coles mic. It's rated in Pascal not DBV. Pascal is 20 dB below the DBV rating I believe. If memory serves I believe the coles is 26 dB quieter then a 58 Yes I've used the Sennheiser 835s and 945. I actually had Chris Cornell from Soundgarden singing into the 945 when I mix them as he was on a 58 but And also on wedges and the background bleed was too much as he sings very quietly. I found it worked well though he was very sensitive to the various mic proximity effects and how fast it drops off. It's such a pleasure to work with singers that really pay attention to the tools they use and also challenging as they become accustomed to very nuance to differentials that may not align with live sound reinforcement on a large scale
It's only usually lead vocalists in a live environment that have any idea of self compression using mic technique, in my experience. Even then there are vocalists who stick their lips to the grill and stay there, irrespective of what they're singing. I always sing about 1 1/2" to 2" from the mic, pulling back for when I'm belting, and pulling up to the grill when I need a deep, intimate sound. It helps with having worked with live sound engineers that can quickly hear and see, you're working WITH them not against them.
![AMD Ryzen 7 9700X vs. 7700X: 40+ Game Benchmark [23H2 vs. 24H2]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/rlfTHCzBnnQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Advertised as a study of proper mic technique.
Is actually a demonstration of proper compressor technique.
Thanks Dave.
🤙🔧🎛️🔧
the gain matching in this video is great. It truly shows how the sound really changes at each position in an objective way
Awesome!
Your humor is only surpassed by the usefulness of content. I was cracking up at some of your comments. An air compressor…. what a great demonstration. I wish I could have all the vocalists I mix watch this… thanks!!
Awesome and thank you!
Not the compressor I was expecting from Dave.
I was expecting something vintage like an Ingersal Rand maybe.
👍🔧👍🎛️
The sarcasm is strong in this one - I love it! Are you sure you’re not British! 😄
I’m a FoH mixer/engineer who also works as an outside broadcast sound engineer, so I have good experience setting up (and mixing) Coles mics in commentary positions.
The Coles is an interesting beast and despite what might appear to the contrary here with background noise, they work very well in practice.
Their main aim is to maintain speech intelligibility in loud environments, not necessarily remove all background noise.
Polar response is “bi-directional” (wording from the official spec), which explains why it picks up a lot from the rear in this particular test given the proximity of the compressor. Typically the back of the mic is pointing at a TV monitor, a window, out into the football field or at a co-commentator.
There are a lot of interesting design aspects, like the top pop shield to prevent noise from breathing down the nose, other shields prevent lip noise, and plosives just don’t seem to be a thing with them.
As regards low gain, the people using them tend to be very loud! We test them by essentially yelling into them as loud as we can, because this is what’s going to happen when something interesting goes off on the track or pitch. They're also typically used with specialist commentary boxes which have the required clean gain available. Glensound are by far the most popular (in the UK at least).
Very cool and thank you! Yes they do have a clear voice sound to them and don't have that extra boominess and p pop plosive issue. And having the lip guard really instinctively keeps your lips very evenly placed the mic good stuff!
When you said "compressor", that is NOT what I expected 🤣
Dave always entertains me with his antics!!! I thoroughly enjoy it!! Thank you Dave!
Awesome and thank you!
You see the Coles still quite often in Europe as a sportscaster mic. In football(soccer) stadiums, track meetings etc.
While some broadcasters have evolved to arguably better mics, the Coles really has a recognisable sound when used in the midst of a stadium filled with chants.
Yeah and it has an open sound that sounds less constrained compared to a regular mic year close to. That said it does let in background noise more but I do like the sound of it
😂 the compressor was totally out of left field, really enjoyed that
Alright, now I'm going to engage the compressor.
You should hear some light compression.
Ngl it''s a pretty noisy feckin compressor
To be fair, this compressor did add a lot of character.
Mic technique.
20+ years ago, Tony Bennett, great seats.
Could not believe what I saw.
Been at this since the early 70's, thought I'd seen everything.
Nope ... I was mesmerized by his stunning mic technique, an entire different level ... as well as how he controlled the attention of all in attendance.
His varying proximity control in concert with his dynamics, kept the peak energy level ... right where it sounded fantastic.
He'd use storytelling and quiet the crowd simply by his own level and control, then 𝙋𝙐𝙉𝘾𝙏𝙐𝘼𝙏𝙀 that with amazing power from him, and the accompanying piano, bass and drums.
It was great.
So great to see someone with talent and skill!
I don’t know if I learned anything from this demo but I got ALOT of enjoyment from it. 💯
🤙👍🤙
Totally enjoyed the “mucking around” with this example. Totally cool
Hilarious snark throughout, and very helpful too, thanks Dave!
Om7 was really impressive in terms of the tone up close as well as rejection. Sm58 gets muddy up close but is forgiving at distance and odd angles.
👍🤙👍
Sm58 has very narrow pickup pattern and it's not very sensitive, thus without gain compensation (that Dave told us he's using in this clip) SM58 isn't very forgivable to off axis sources or large distances. SM58 is an artists microphone. It needs you to know how to use it. :)
@@Mtaalas what I was intrigued with is that the om7 seems especially designed for background rejection on loud stages. It stays clear and articulate even with lips-on-the-grille close talking. We have an om2 and I noticed that it loses huge amounts of volume at distance, which is an advantage if you use stage wedges and need to avoid feedback.
In my experience, an sm58 needs 4 inches or so of distance to clean up and sound articulate and balanced.
The om7 is hypercardioid (very narrow), 58 is cardioid (wider).
You're very correct about performers needing to learn how to work the mic. And not just any mic -- whatever mic they happen to be using. They don't all respond the same.
Oh the 58…… it’s a hammer, it’s a microphone.
Thank you for being you.
❤️✌️
As an avid F1 fan I've never been able to figure out what that damn mic was until now. Thanks, Dave!
Yay F1!
SM58 didnt fare too well.
Also, its an obvious one but still worth noting; there's such a nice measure of added clarity/articulation to addressing the mic at an inch or two ... ie., when the lips are free to do their thing.
I appreciated the added air "air" from the compressor discharge, it facilitated better comparo of coverage by freq.
Wonderful video.
These hands on analogous explorations are always thought inspiring.
🔧🎛️🔧
Great video & info! Thanks for sharing.
i dont have anything else to say other than i love your videos man. youre awesome bro. thanks
Awesome and thank you
in my experience Mic technicque is absolutly important. But the best thing somebody can do with what ever technique they use, if they use it consistently
🎛️🤙🎛️
As usual, a very interesting video. It was especially interesting to hear the difference in background sound rejection of the various mics. Thank you so much for all the great videos you make and would love to know the threshold, attack, release and ratio settings for the air compressor. 😊
Wonderful and thank you!
i think the coles intentionally captures the ambience of the perspective of the commentator. but its designed in a way that the voice sits over it when held at the right distance. so when you are watcing on TV its meant to sound like you are sitting where the commentator is watching it live. 1 mic bam job done. genius design.
🎛️🔧🎛️
This is not the compressor you were looking for.👋🔦
This is not the compressor we were locking for.
Well, it's important to choose the right kind of compressor for the job.
Jesus. I guess a couple of OM7s will be my next purchase.
Great demo of various microphones. You just reinforced Dr. Floyd Tooles "Circle of Confusion."
I bet this video tolk a LOOONG time to edit, with all the different volumes pr. mic. Thanks for doing it.
Loved every minute of this. Thank you Dave Rat for real world engineering making things a little bit more awesome by the end of the day.
🤙🔧🤙
Sometimes what works best depends on the mic being used. My biggest issues are people who think the mic can hear them fine when they hold it below their heart. These are usually folks that have LITTLE experience using microphones. I usually give them some coaching to keep the mic near your mouth!!
😅😅
I always assume people know nothing about using a mic. A little bit of coaching can go a long way.
Super interesting test! I wonder why the coles is used for F1. The rejection seems a lot worse, but it does sound quite clear at that distance. Maybe it's just because it's easier to enforce consistent technique?
You know I don't really know. But those ribbon mics do have a really nice realistic sound and isn't muddy or murky like the dynamic mics up close,
On the other hand it could be some old school BBC contract kind of thing tied into vintage racing Good old boys
Very interesting, thanks Dave!
🤙👍🤙
Good stuff, thanks.
Would like to see a Sennheiser 935e compared in the mix. Those always were easy to get a good sound with even if the performer wasn't a pro.
Thanks so much I really enjoyed this one😂
flipping hilarious. group think is a catastrophic problem which is surprising with the internet
👍🤙👍
Amazing as usual,Thanks Dave
Good gravy, Dave! Ya think it's time to recap that compressor?
I tell vocalist to treat the mic like someones ear up close to whisper further back to belt it, only helps if they listen though....So this poses the question do musicians that listen really exist????
Or if it's a bad singer: "Treat the mic like someone's anus... that's right, wipe it... now back away, turn around, go... and try to forget you were ever here."
You should do a handling noise test!!!!
Good idea and yeah the heil Mike had the highest handling noise and I could do a test on that
Dave you're wearing my shirt!!! Dave! always delivering excellent mind food! thanks!
Nothing more important than a good-sounding compressor. :-D Would love to see the sE V7 in this setting. And just for comparison some condenser mic such as the AKG C7.
🤙🎛️🤙
@Dave Rat, Very funny and also very true. thanks for the video
👍🤙👍
Great video Dave
If I remember well, they used the Coles during the Soccer World Cup in 2010 in South Africa. The whole stadium was playing Vuvuzela and the speakers on TV were very difficult to isolate from the stadium noise.
I am impressed that you remembered the "Vuvuzela" what a horrible sound that made, especially in a stadium full of them.
Oh those are rough sounding
Compressor,, genius,, 👍🌟😅🌟👍
👍🤙👍
@@DaveRat 💖
👍🤙👍
It would be interesting to hear a comparison of different vocal mics with someone playing drums behind you. At the church I mix at we started off with Beta 58s and then upgraded to KSM8s. I find they have much better rejection of the cymbals, so I tend to prefer them for vocalists.
Yeah I probably don't have a way to get a drummer behind me in my house but I might be able to put something together like a blasting speaker behind me or something
@@DaveRat That'll do it :)
Hey Dave, love your work! Please tell me, where can I get an H3K backdrop like yours? Worked with H3ks and XL4s for over 20 years, really miss those days :)
Yes. Proper microphone technique is very important for people using handheld mics. Improper is cupping the cardioid producing howling feedback. I had that just now for Gaz's Rockin' Blues at Notting Hill Carnival. People with crazy behaviour with handheld mics. Not ideal, improper and thoughtless non-technique. I had feedback. It was a bit like those protest shows in the '70 where the mic occasionally squeaks and rings. These people pulled me in last minute, there had been some disasters, and I have realised that I need to come up with something serious for these guys. It was hard work.
Plus I had the mixing desk behind the speakers... so I could not hear anything direct, I had to monitor subgroups off a hotspot to get the balance. Very hard gig. The turnout was nice and big, as well.
Add to that a punch up involving a bunch of people... so no line or sound check...
Oh it was improper alright.
Reminds me of volunteering to run sound for a benefit involving a dozen bands with no sound checks between other than test123 and Hey turn up my monitor. Oh, I was also using their equipment, a conglomerate from several of the groups.
It turned out fine, I actually got some work from it.
@@TomCee53 mixing from behind a 15ft stack of RCF line units and 21 inch bins, and hearing only the reflections off the terraced houses opposite meant I was mixing mostly by meters. I can do that but it's very, very scary. Like flying instruments-only in a storm. A couple of points of the show I went out and had a listen, and I got it *juicy*. It was hard, but we had the wattage. It ended up good. Possibly some of the best sound I have got for a reggae or ska band, at moments. You work hard, you get results. Subgroup balance monitoring is actually a damn good policy, and I like a little hotspot for soloing things into. Behringer X32 will let you do quite a few things that would be improbable in analogue on the timescale, it was *brutal*, setting up everything channel by numbers and rigging mics onto forklift pallets turned into handrail for staging, with 40 police crowding out the backstage and my assistant sound tech - nathan the trojans' keys player - bleeding from the nose, and hemmed in by cops, and a bunch of crew got carted off by the police. It was *hardcore*, not just last minute. Nathan played the show with a broken nose - re-broken from a site accident a few weeks ago.
So... I had to improvise, and set out the stage so I could mix without the wireless login, from out in the audience. No details... so I've got to push the faders physically.
I did a very clever trick for the brass section. I just stuck an ORTF pair at the front of the stage and let them get stuck in. Both close mics and a "whole band picture", all on one source, and it sounded beefy compressed to f***, ducking against the brass, and that helped with their monitors. I got it to work after the sax players stopped slapping the mics complaining they can't hear - the monitors were all on the corners of the stage. I am not stupid... when I got the source cooked up right it sounded seriously good, and I could tell the band loved it. They just settled in and sounded tight as. The ORTF crusher at the front would also override vocal mic feedback, as well. It had a nice phase response. It is a keeper - that is something I learned working with Indian classical ensembles at the South Bank Center. These situations force you to invent things, and the solutions that work are priceless. Improper? I like it.
🤙🤙🔧🔧
This comment is my trademark BTW, but when I get a person on stage that disrespects the mic, I just tell them " the microphone is an ice cream cone, not a Pen15 "..... That usually gets them to behave for a minute :)
Some use a shock collar to correct a dog when it is misbehaving. I wonder if we could employ the same technique on the talented super cuper? 🤔
Wow, is it April 1st already?!
yeah, I also saw the F1 announcers using those, but now seeing your comparisons I'm not impressed with it reducing other ambient sounds .... however I do like that it seems hard to use wrong for a hand held mic, so I can see why an audio tech would want to apply their use ..... as with my own sound work, I'd get a lot of vocalist that were new to the live stage; they might have only seen videos or something of someone using a mic in a way that "looked cool" or just no clue on how much effect the holding of a mic can have on their vocals - what I'd tell them to do is to *pretend that the microphone is someone's ear* so if you are loud and yelling you could give it a little more space, but then be close for quiet whispers, and to never block the back of the mic head as that has the reverse effect they might be after to pick up other sounds better vs having them cancel out when they hit the back of the diaphragm(sorta, without getting too complex about pickup patterns and omnidirectional) sing thru the mic, instead of just into it or cupped in your hand nearby or shoved in your mouth
...but pretty neat to see some people 'get it' and start using the mic field to their advantage, so I could give them more gain and monitors to go nuts with
Completely awesome!! Thanks!
Great Video. 😃👍♥️
Brilliant 😊
I get so....... when people whisper, place the mic below their chest... and complain they cant hear them selfs....
... I mean... it's kinda spelled out on the polar response diagram of each microphone...
But then again, most vocalists probably don't know how to find a spec sheet nor read a polar response diagram.
And also actually hearing may offer useful info that the specs can't.
I've yet to read a spec that tells me what something actually sounds like
@@DaveRat Yeah, that's kinda outside the scope of a spec sheet. There are so many external factors at play that it'd be hard to document in a spec sheet.
Agreed, spec sheets just set a realm of expectations
Was the volume matching done as automation with a controller, drawn automation, a vocal rider plugin or something else entirely?
I took each relevant audio segment and adjusted the gain so each audio segment had the same peak level.
Kind of emulating what an engineer would do with a signal and set the game pot to be a few dB below peak. And the sound you hear in the recording would be pretty similar to what PFL in the various channels would sound like after the gains were set
The Heil mic seem to have a lot of handling noise.
Music to my ears.
I solve 99% of this with a headset microphone... if the performer is an amateur, If at all possible, I'll give them headset. SM58 only for those who I KNOW can handle it properly and if there's nothing else available. On2 SM58 _always_ as a spare if something breaks.
I think more people should learn how to put on headset properly and use them more, we'd get better audio in "talking heads" shows. :)
Hey Dave hope you're doing well! I am a live sound noob but have a fair amount of experience in-studio. I have a question that I am not even sure I know how to ask. How come when I got to concerts- they are loud, but piercing in the upper mids. It often seems like there is no consideration to the human ears sensitivity in that range and the role too much plays in masking energy elsewhere... Like I said I am arguably still green when it comes to mixing and I definitely am green with live sound so I'm just curious as to what I'm perceiving. Is it due to limitations in tuning the room throughout? Or is it sonic preference of the person running sound? Thanks for all you do for sound community!
Yeah, that's an issue. My opinion is that it is because the live engineers are weeks or months into a tour and their ears have dulled and they have not developed a system to compensate and maintain a good reference
I did a vid on reference points while mixing and keeping the mix balanced and not painful is an important skill
@@DaveRat ok I will check for that video and your answer was enlightening! Thank you!!
I've mixed that band!
🤙👍🤙
That compressor will not fit in my lunchbox 😂😂
Interesting that the Coles mic had the WORST voice-to-noise ratio of all of them!
Yes, I found that rather shocking since noisy environments is the use case that this mic was designed for. I have a Coles 4038 and love it. I'd thought of getting one of these Coles lip mics, and I still might, but it would be for its sound rather than noise rejection. It seems to me like the SM58 actually has the best off-axis rejection of the four.
@@alandavidson8311Remember that they'er almways used when you have two or more commentators right next to each other, projecting very loudly.
They have a figure 8 pickup, so the real noise cancellation they're known for is in isolating the voices from each other, not from the ambient sound!
This should be a PSA for comedians
Dave, I think you'll be the first standup engineer... however I've already known a friend of mine.... :D
Why cupping mics? It sounds horrible destroys the pattern (sometimes) but reduce gain before feedback…..
someone should really let chino know about this
Super cup from the
I wonder how much of an improvement there would be if a Cloudlifter CL-1 was added in-line.
None, it would just be louder by however much gain it applies.
According to the VU metres and horrified audience: Yes.
I think all lectern speakers should use the heavy metal mic hold technique!
compressor! 🤣🤣🤣
Not the purpose of the test but the SM58 sounded kinda horrible compared the other three. Interesting as the lead singer in my band uses an SM58. I'll have to try him with some other things. I already switched from an SM58 to an AKG190E we both play guitar when we sing so we can't cup the mic and look really cool (joke), just as well 'cos the AKG190E has shocking handling noise! The Coles sounded amazingly clear, shame about the low output of yours according to specs I can find online the Coles should be about 1/2 as sensitive as an SM58. If yours is lower that maybe get an exchange from your supplier? It is supposed to be good at noise rejection, I think yours may well not be behaving right.I'm learning a lot from your vids bud. I also like the way you say 'Alright' at the beginning as an enquiring greeting like a British person 🙂
An affordable alternative is the Sennheiser e 835. I've only used it on vocals, but it sounds great.
Take a closer look at the specifications for the Coles mic. It's rated in Pascal not DBV. Pascal is 20 dB below the DBV rating I believe.
If memory serves I believe the coles is 26 dB quieter then a 58
Yes I've used the Sennheiser 835s and 945. I actually had Chris Cornell from Soundgarden singing into the 945 when I mix them as he was on a 58 but And also on wedges and the background bleed was too much as he sings very quietly.
I found it worked well though he was very sensitive to the various mic proximity effects and how fast it drops off.
It's such a pleasure to work with singers that really pay attention to the tools they use and also challenging as they become accustomed to very nuance to differentials that may not align with live sound reinforcement on a large scale
Put,some compressor to the mic……😂😂😂😂😂 …there is no 11….. like on spinal taps guitar amp….
👍🤙🤙
No that is wrong kind of compressor!! 😆
🙂👍
Hilarious!
🤙👍🤙
@@DaveRat A solid 10 minute standup set at a convention for live engineers. Open bar.
😂
Not mic
It's only usually lead vocalists in a live environment that have any idea of self compression using mic technique, in my experience. Even then there are vocalists who stick their lips to the grill and stay there, irrespective of what they're singing. I always sing about 1 1/2" to 2" from the mic, pulling back for when I'm belting, and pulling up to the grill when I need a deep, intimate sound. It helps with having worked with live sound engineers that can quickly hear and see, you're working WITH them not against them.
Around is the best kind of mucking!