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Kill Team | Void Dancer Troupe Review
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- čas přidán 30. 07. 2024
- Welcome to another Warhammer 40,000 Kill Team video where I do an in-depth (delayed) review of the latest White Dwarf Kill Team: the Void-Dancer Troupe. I'll cover all aspects of this updated Harlequin team as well as going over the worrying issue of balance they have for the game as a whole.
#Warhammer #Warhammer40k #KillTeam
00:00 - Intro
01:32 - Narrative
03:31 - Roster
06:12 - Saedeths
12:52 - Tac Ops
15:36 - Strategic and Tactical Ploys
20:39 - Psychic Powers
23:15 - Operatives
28:17 - Equipment
31:27 - Overview
37:34 - Balance Concerns
44:01 - Outro
Crit ! Cast:
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I can see how they might have been overtuned to make them more thematic but the stuff like not rolling for your second psychic power and 1ep suspensor system is pretty egregious when it comes balance
100%
It just doesn't make any sort of sense for balance reasons. Just such a disappointment imo
Either the Harlequin playtesters dont get the playstyles you described OR they do and want to win untill they get nerfed. Thanks for the Review very helpfull.
Yeah...it's very confusing to try and rationalise haha. Thanks, glad it helped (:
I also don’t think your wrong or doom posting. It doesn’t actually take a lot of tournaments to determine the power level of most things. Checklist style analysis is fairly accurate. Especially when compendium harlequins were already an arguably great team.
Does the team get strong protection in melee? Yes.
Against shooting? Yes.
Are they locked into melee/pistol range? No.
Do they get movement bonuses? Yes.
Do they get melee bonuses? Yes.
Do they get shooting bonuses? Yes.
Is there more than one thing they do better than everyone else? Yes. (Psychic, infinite flamer, cp generation to name a few.)
The list could probably go on but it doesn’t need to. Point is all the building blocks for a busted team are there.
Yeah and they're starting to dominate tournaments. It's not so bad if you're playing the teams that can counter them but it's still not easy and forces the meta into a narrow pool
The whole point of keeping the support grip at 1 equip point is obviously that you have to choose between grip and toxin rounds on the death jester… and yes it seems really likely that the grip is the better choice.
I mean, even then Toxin Rounds are never worth it on the DJ aha
Kind of ironic having the Pathfinder player be so worried about teams being over powered
And this isn't a hate comment, love the video and the channel. Just being a smart ass.
Aha well I still think Pathfinders need to be hit again too (roster size), it's just that all the other Pathfinder players mostly disagree with me 🙃🤣
Yeah I've played against them with Tyranids, Hunter clade, and vet guard. Tyranids have a pretty hard time, hunter clade I can sometimes narrowly get a win, and vet guard take the win pretty consistently.
Most of the time it comes down to kinda making a firing line and incapacitating most of them before they can get to you... You just gotta hope they get cocky and over extend haha
Yeah, you have to make them panic. Although Vet Guard do that excellently against them
Wanted to try this out as my WD team but now I'm afraid they'll get nerfed hard by the time I finish painting
Well the next balance dataslate is due around June so you still got time
Wow, having it laid out like that makes it pretty clear even if I haven’t played with/against them yet.
Thankfully it seems that it won’t be too hard to pick what to change. No more changing Saedeth and no more bonus command point every turn will go a long way I think.
Honestly I’d have given them the Eldar “Free Dash” pseudo 3APL to start with.
What discord were the testers talking in?
Yup, once it's all laid out it's pretty...depressing haha.
Agreed. Hitting Saedeth CP and making Death Jester and Shadowseer 2 roster slots should be enough imo.
Not gonna say directly but it's one of the main public Kill Team discords 🙃
Anyway, thanks for the video drop John :) it's good to get salty with you haha xD
Haha no worries, it's good to embrace the salt 😂
As a Harlequin main, I LOVE how salty you are!!!
Are you a Harlequin playtester 🤔🤣🤣🤣
What is the point of the Comedy Accolade? You cant move/charge and fall back so why would you want to save the AP anyway? If you've been charged you're already dead and if you charge someone you cant fall back after. Completely useless.
All energy was put into the other Saedeths 🤣
Instead of reducing APL or removing fly I think Fly needs to be fixed. Fly works in a way that you can move 2D on the battlefield. I would rework fly letting you ignore vertical distance up to 3" (for example)on each move action.
Kinda, that's why I think they should habe given them climbing ropes instead or what the Drukhari Wyches have with their strat that do what you said. True fly should be rare and not kill team wide
I agree with your overview, they are quite obnoxious. I'm looking forward to the next balance dataslate, to say the least.
Hopefully it comes early June or even earlier aha
I didn’t realize you could switch your sedath when you already completed it. I thought it’d be a way to switch it in case the game doesn’t go as planned to still have a way to get the CP.
The way you explained it makes it seem too strong …
The problem is that's the way the devs probably intended it but you start off in a farm points sedaeth then switch to the one you actually want to use like auto crits in combat. Way too abuseable
But tbh as a harlequins player I originally felt like this is a nerf though.
My buddy is usually playing Orks/Kommandos and the dmg change to the caress for example hurt quite a bit in that matchup. Auto crits on kisses gets you to 10dmg easy but if they „it’s just a scratch“ your crit you need FOUR more hits to kill them.
Yeah but changing Saedeths is far too strong and you just auto kill stuff that aren't Orks if you trigger the auto melee crit. If Saedeths couldn't be changed it'd be more balanced.
As someone who's only had bottom tier compendium armies (I chose based aesthetics, my bad) playing into S tier Pathfinders and high skilled Mechanicus, this could feel very cathartic to play as.
I don't think that's a healthy way to look at game balance as a whole 😬
@@CanYouRollaCrit Oh by no means, far from it. Just a bit of vengeance, THEN we can balance :P
Hello! i'ts enoght with one Troupe box to play or it's necessary another?
You'd need only 1 if you buy the 2 characters imo
@@CanYouRollaCrit Yes but what about the troupe weapons?
Going blade only is fine. You only need the other weapons if you want to tech into sfuff
@@CanYouRollaCrit but i need disruptor and fusion too not? I have the Shadow seer and Jester already
You get 2 of each pistol in a single box
It's sad GW missed an opportunity to make a harlequin KT that people want to play versus. Very worrying that they don't get it.
Yeah it's pretty shocking they kept all their unfun tricks
I really hope they address some things in the next KT balance dataslate. Removing fly & changing flip belts to behaving like climbing ropes, plus bumping the shrieker cannon grip to 2 or 3 EP would be good fixes. Adding a MW mechanic for the second psychic power would be good too.
I really hope that when they publish the KT 2022 Annual & reprint the WD teams, they incorporate all the balance changes & errata.
I really hope so but I fear that will be too much to change.
My new personal fix (ideally I'd have what you said) is Death Jester and Shadowseer taking up 2 slots on the roster and extra CP removed from Saedeths
I hear you… but have you played them a lot ? Or against them a lot ? Or is it just analysis of the data sheets ?
I have not played against them, but I think I would feel better equipped with Vet guard and their 14 bodies. I still think they are going to have a hard time versus Kommandos too…
Mirror of Minds is not a Shooting Action. It can be used while Concealed or with pistol/disruptor in one activation.
Lack of PSYKER keyword is probably an oversight. But AFAIK only Psychic actions are affected by rules (Novitiates Condemnor and Sisters of Silence). So no biggie.
I think we can all guess the balance update will hit them in some way. That extra CP generation and 1 EP Grip seems over the top. Climbing instead of FLY is intriguing idea. I actually like that.
Oh mirror of minds can? Sighhh
It's a small goof but a funny one
Yeah I feel they're going to get hit in one way or another. Just depends how far GW is willing to go for balance
@@CanYouRollaCrit I stand corrected. PSYKER keyword is actually required by Psyk-out Grenades (Grey Knights and Talons).
Love me some Killer Clowns from Outer Space
Gotta watch out for Klownzilla tho
@@CanYouRollaCrit Sanding and magnetizing a wraith knight right now while listening
Why is the Neuro Disruptor bad?
It isn't?
@@CanYouRollaCrit Just asking since you recommend always taking the Shuriken Pistol over it.
For the Shadowseer and Leader, yeah as it's better on a normal player
@@CanYouRollaCrit Gotcha, thank you.
Absolutely broken. I have no idea what GW thinking is here - effectively breaking their game, nearly every time they update it.
I think the problem is only S tier and almost S tier kill teams can deal with them, which is not good at all.
Imo it's due to people focussing too much on the narrative during development and not balance. I think I've figured out some simple but effective balance changes although that's for a different video 🙃
@@CanYouRollaCrit "it's due to people focussing too much on the narrative during development and not balance" - this is SO interesting to me as a dev, as I feel this is an absolutely awful way to make a competitive (as in, two players, play against one another) game :P haha
Well normally they strike a good balance between narrative and competitiveness but they messed up here which makes more sense to me the more the playtesters try to explain it 😂
As I said, easy fix but disappointing after the WD teams and Nachmund teams
Welp playtesters did not see custodes being a problem. Playtesters did not see marines being unplayable at 5 bodies if your enemy knows what "conceal" is. I'm not surprised they did not see Void Dancers being overtuned.
It's really strange when you compare them to Kommandos vs Vet.Guard, who are almost perfectly balanced against each other.
It's almost like they were made and playtested by totally different people.
Or maybe GW has some strange Harlequin bias for some reason. Recent Harlequin codex in 40k has 70% winrate as well.
Yup it's really bizarre and confusing. The more I find out, the worse it gets 😬🙃
Salty
Sodium chloride
Sounds kinda salty tbh. I had the models from like 2 years ago, was excited to make a KT and had no idea how strong the team was, now this video has put me off a little bit 😅
No, they are not fun to play against.
thet was really really strong, now they are really extra strong . How beta testers not see that ? And the most inteesting thing od that they come on same moment when Corsair comes... Really really not so powerfoul, like you say "really balance" in game where monsters rules.
I think that's the most bizarre thing. The Nachmund teams are fun and balanced then Void Dancers dropped and feel like a completely different era of balance
I mean you say, your team have got a little bit worse in your bad matchups : vet guard, kommando, pathfinders… so basically you have gotten worse against the 3 best teams in the game that you will likely face in top tables…
That is kind of A big deal, you are bad against the team that you really have to beat.
But I agree, they are not going to be fun to play against for the lower ranking teams…
That's the problem tho, you're only slightly worse against the top teams but dominate everything else. It's just gonna be terrible for people who don't play those teams sadly
@@CanYouRollaCrit I see your point, and I understand your point of view.
I just have a different view on the philosophie of power balance : for me each other team should be adjusted to reach that power level (i.e. Vet Guard, Ork, Pathfinder), instead of nerfing the best teams.
Because solving the Void dancers issue is not solving the rest: the same team that can not beat Void dancers now, can not face Vet Guard or Pathfinders either...
Or they all get toned down together? I'm not saying just nerf Void Dancers. Kommandos have already been bit and are fine but the other teams need addressing too.
Having a pool of OP teams in any game is not healthy
@@CanYouRollaCrit Absolutely, that is also possible. And necessary.
But psychologically because of Loss Aversion bias, it would feel better to have all the teams reach that higher level of power, instead of lowering the power of the best teams.
I also totally understand that is it much more work to power up 30 teams than to lower the power of 3 of them...
I guess, what I would like to see, is power level adjustment on a really frequent basis: like a 2 months period. And tweaking the best teams slightly down and the worse teams up, to a happy middle-ground.
It is a bit what they did with the Space Marines going to 6 bodies. I definitely think this is the right way to manage power balance a game.
I hope that when most teams will have a Box/WD version, the power range will be much smaller.
I played against them today with corsairs, that felt like a shit show. The least enjoyable game so far. Every other team seems fairly balanced and like you have a chance.
Yeah, sadly Void Dancers have a huge NPE
@@CanYouRollaCrit Never mind, will choose not to play them until GW run out of whatever they’re smoking.
Hopefully GW balance them soon
@@CanYouRollaCrit yes please! KT has been a dream to play so far. This seems like an unusual blemish on an otherwise great game.
Community ban incoming?
Nah, they're not that bad
@@CanYouRollaCrit I absolutely think its bad enough for a community ban. At what point do you think a line gets crossed? Because to me it seems bad enough when you have a very easy, clearly defined path for victory that your opponent cannot interact with.
That's pretty much right but I'm very eery of just blanket banning stuff. I'd give it a few more tournaments and if they continue dominating then maybe? I'd rather wait for GW to do something which I expect them to do already imo
@@CanYouRollaCrit I'm in for more data points. I think that pathfinders were ostracized too early, even if I suspect they would end up in similar position.
would be good if you like scored the killteam based on some criteria, then keep a running scoreboard of all the killteams you covered at the end of your video
That's something I could work on. Currently I just have my tier list for that
In all seriousness, I played in a tournemant and lost to Death Guard. Death Guard is really quite strong against Void Dancer because they're so tanky and quite good at melee, and bolter discipline punishes Void when they're within 6" and you cannot Domino field...
The problem is Death Guard are unlikely to play into Void Dancers unless it's early into a tournament due to how the meta is atm sadly.
If elites got a general buff then it would worry the new Quins