Repertoire: The BEST and WORST Mahler Symphony Cycles
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- čas přidán 7. 09. 2024
- As an adjunct to my videos on the individual Mahler symphonies, here is a talk on the best and worst complete cycles (featuring more than twenty of them). As I have said many times, there is no "perfect" Mahler symphony cycle. The music is too complex, too expressively comprehensive for any one conductor to encompass fully, but some have come pretty close. Here they are.
I will never tire of hearing you say “the Russian, state, broadcast, federation, radio, Soviet, academic, tv, everything but the kitchen sink, orchestra.” I laugh every time and have rewatched it many times. Aside from that, another great talk. Keep them coming
I liked the orchestra that had “Large” in its name. Something like “The Moscow Large Radio Symphony Orchestra.” I have one of two of their LPs.
Hmm... Kondrashin was a great mahlerian
Years ago I attended Mahler 5th with Chailly at the Concertgebouw in Amsterdam. It blew me off my chair. I bought the CD box as soon as it came out and played it from 1 till 10 many, many times. Now I'm looking forward to the Mahler Festival in May 2025 in Amsterdam. I've managed to buy a passe-partout, all 10 symphonies in 10 days. For me it is a once in a lifetime opportunity to hear this fantastic music live.
The Concertgebouw also has some of the best acoustics in the world. It adds immeasurably to the experience. It is a classic shoebox shape constructed of wood. The only halls of comparable size which I have been twhich come close are Boston Sympony Hall, and the Musikverien in Vienna. There are other venues built at the same time (around 1900) that I have been to -- Carnegie Hall (of course), Orchestra Center in Chicago, and Hiill Auditorium in Ann Arbor that sound wonderful but do not have the classic "showbox" shape. Even the best modern halls do not have the same sonic qualities.
Apparently the hall in Goteburg (Sweden) and the Teatro Còlon in Buenos Aires (Argentina) are the only venues generally regarded by acousticians as of the same calibre as Boston Symphony Hall, the Amsterdam Concertgebouw, and Suntory Hall in Tokyo.
[I would be happy to give reviews of a variety of halls experienced in person in Asia, Oceania, the US, and Canada, but maybe no one else cares. A yey or a ney from the audience of Doctor Dave is quite welcome.^^]
I was never a great fan of Mahler's, but after listening to Bernstein's reading I finally understood Mahler's music! Mahler makes sense under Bernstein!! By and large a marvelous conductor!
Bernstein and Mahler had a musical marriage.
Mr. Hurwitz, As a native Utahan I just wanted to thank you for including Maestro Abravanel's cycle as it was my first exposure to Mahler. I was a performance major at The University Of Utah while he was still with us and he attended every concert and greeted us all as we walked off stage. One time I flubbed a passage in Beethoven's 1st symphony and I didnt get my jovial handshake/smile just a scowl and frown. Needless to say I didn't let that happen again. I was lucky enough to ascension his score collection to The University Of Utah's music library and getting to see on the score of Prokofiev's Fifth "With love to Maurice, Serge" was a thrill. Just wanted to say thanks again for shedding some light on a hometown hero. Cheers!
Thank you, Dr. Hurwitz. I like your sense of humor. 😂
I recently discovered this channel - doh, where have I been? I’ve learned about Mahler over the years from one or two individual editions and thought about a cycle to explore the remainder. Having followed your recommendation, I’m enjoying the Chailly very much and the wonderful recording quality is a bonus. I will keep my Maazel for the fourth as the slightly less hurried finale seems to add wonder and charm for me but the Chailly set is fabulous. Thank you.
David - I listened to the Bertini Mahler 8 - you are spot on. It is one for the ages. When I was timpanist of the Oslo Philharmonic from 1983 through 1998, I had the opportunity to work Gary Bertini on the 5th, 6th and 9th Symphonies. All clean, well-conceived performances - especially of No. 9! A fine conductor!
Hello Mister Hurwitz,I have listening to you with the greatest interest for some time now,and here is my first comment...How much I love Mahler's music no impossible to describe,just a music and it's beauty can't be describe in words...For me music is above poetry!This time I will say something about the symphonies I listen to the most,compared to the performances from the recomended cycle,which are 3th and 6th .I have to say right now that I don't accept the term -best in music.Everyone has their favorites!In particular,I can't agree with your opinion that the cycle from R.Chilly is superb...In addition to the 3 and 6 that I mentioned,I will also comment on the first one ,which left a fantastic impression on me,especially the first part,with the flute solo etc.,performed by K.Tennstedt with the CSO,a live performance.It's something extraordinary ,truly unsurpassed,as well as the Andante in the Tragic symphony ,also Tennstedt interpretation,with LSO.1991.!!It is a flight to heaven ,a silent departure,merging with divine beauty..3rd symphony,or Progress to divine,L.Bernstein,live performance with the Vienna philharmonic-Magnificent,for me no 1,absolutely,absolutely!!!The beginning with the brass delights me..Fantasy...then the powerful beauty of the marches...Spectacular!!!So Adagio,of course,fascinating sublimity!!!I also wont to say that the extraordinary performance by Andres Orozco Estrada with the Frankfurt Phil h armonic(Natalie Stutzmann enchanted me with her singing)!...The cycle of the R.Chilly is excellent,thanks!!I listen to you every day..Greetings from Serbia💙💙💙💙💙
I love how automatic captions sometimes translate "Mahler cycle" as "motorcycle"
"Under neon loneliness, mahlercycle emptiness"
Just watched your Mahler 2 video yesterday, in which you exclaimed that you would never do a video on the best Mahler Cycles 😂😂 Very funny timing
As I said, popular demand (sigh).
@@DavesClassicalGuide Take a leaf out of Sviatislav Richter's book and just do what makes you happy, Dave! Maybe we'll all end up watching you analyse Haydn in a darkened hall using a single lamp to illuminate the score 😆
I watched this again last night and after I streamed Michael Gielen's recording of the Mahler 8. It's a work I'd been struggling with a little as I found the first part quite 'noisy'. The second part had clicked with me but not the first. Until Gielen. Now I'm a 100% convert. What a magnificent recording. Thank you so much for your recommendation. First you put me on to Ozawa's Japan Mahler 2 and now Gielen's Mahler 8. I can't wait to go back through your videos of the individual symphonies and get some more life changing recommendations.
Dave, you mention the price of the Chailly Mahler cycle relative to some of the others. I'd think anybody looking at that cycle might want to consider the "Chailly Symphony Edition" box, 55 CDs that includes the Mahler plus complete cycles of Beethoven, Bruckner, Brahms and Schumann and quite a bit of other stuff, at about $2/disc currently. That might be worth discussing in the big boxes that are still around series of talks you've been doing.
.😊
The Maurice Abravanel was only the 2nd complete Mahler cycle to come out after Bernstein. However, it was the first budget cycle and for many of us our age it was our first Mahler recording back in the 70s that we could afford with our allowance or summer job money. I have meet many folks in there 60s or older who were introduced to Mahler from this cycle.
I am a Tennstedt/ late Bernstein/Abbado/Chailly Mahler listener but bought Bertini after watching this. I am enjoying the slightly different tempo relationships that always make complete sense. Up to the third so far and that is the best trombone playing I have ever heard. Recordings date from mid 80's - '90s but the recorded sound is superb in spite of different engineers and locations. Bertini is much luckier than Tennsted in this regard in spite of similar recording dates and both being EMI. Many thanks for the recommendation!
You're welcome. I agree, that is an incredible trombone solo.
Como siempre, una extensa y maravillosa reseña! Gracias, señor Hurwitz!!!
De nada. El placer es mio.
@@DavesClassicalGuide esto termina de conquistarme: mi canal de referencia musical escribiendo en español!!!
This channel is such a hidden gem in the classical world… Only discovered this after a Taiwan page shared one of the vids. I’m sure the Asian community would love your work! Would be wonderful if smb can do Chinese subtitles too haha🤣
I wish...
Wow! Just got Chailly's cylcle and that is some beautiful and elegant Mahler. I love this cycle so much that I'm putting it second to Berstein's, only out of homage to the great master and a hunch that he really'got' Mahler. If we had recordings of Mahler conducting Mahler my guess is that it would probably sound a lot like Bernstein. Having said that, Chailly really works wonders with these symphonies- the clarity and expressiveness of individual instruments is surprisingly new, and he brings so much to the foreground that was previously hidden. There is an elegance to Chailly that some may not for Mahler, but for me it's simply beautiful. He tempers down some of the big splashes (like the final note of the 1st), but you know, Mahler doesn't have to be heavy metal all of the time. The orly thing I find a bit oddball is the beginning of the 6th. Ifs someone else has heard the cycle I hope you loved it too and I'd really enjoy any comments.
I think you may be right about Bernstein. When I first heard his recording of the 2nd, the passage leading to the recapitulation--that series of fortissimi triplet and dotted-rhythm chords sounded excessive in its insistence. Then I looked at the score, and sure enough, (just as Dave often points out) Mahler writes a rallentando, a crescendo mark and accent marks over each chord in that last measure. It's unmistakable on the page. Bernstein might be only conductor unembarrassed to deliver what Mahler wrote.
Well Walter was supposed to reflect was Mahler wished....Now I prefer Chailly and Bernstein! Same story for Richard Strauss or STravinsky. Tastes change
Thanks for doing this talk! My desert island Mahler cycle, gun to my head, would be Kubelik. Even though his live versions are generally better, I feel like I could totally live with each performance in this box if I had to. I just enjoy his approach, it always makes me smile
Got the Kubelik cycle on vinyl; I also think it’s pretty solid!
I happen to like Rattle’s version of the 10th, 6th and 5th. His lovely wife (Magdalena Kozena) sings a good “Das Himmlische Leben” in the 4th symphony (under the late Claudio Abbado’s baton) too!
At last. I have the next many, MANY hours of listening (without disappointment) laid out for me. Thank you Dave!!
The last movement of Bertini's Mahler 3 was a Come To Jesus moment for me. As spacious as you could want, full of innigkeit, superlative playing - especially from the brass, and always a sure sense of where the music is going. One of the great performances in my view.
I'm so glad you mentioned the Sinopoli 7th, the recording with a cowbell that sounds like a bunch of soup cans.
David you are doing the work of calling out overrated pseudo mahlerites , thank you,.
I bought the Rattle set, my first Mahler symphony exposure, before seeing your videos. I opted to save a few bucks over the Bernstein New York Philharmonic set. A decision I learnt to regret. I have since made amends: I love the symphonies so much I bought both the sets and have already in the span of just a few weeks added in several additional versions of various symphonies. The Rattle wasn't all a waste of money. I genuinely love what I hear on most of them, and I've yet to hear another version of Symphony 7 but I think he may do well at that one but it's like Bernstein exists just to one up him on every level. That said, I now own both sets and have spent most of my time listening to Rattle. I have also used it as a learning experience to pinpoint what makes an average and what makes a great performance.
Great overview, thank you! "Von STAYED," hahahahha! You crack me up! Odd that two of Mahler's peers Otto Klemperer and Bruno Walter failed to do all the Mahler Symphonies. Of the complete sets, Bernstein/NY and Kubelik have always been my "go tos."
Walter said a number of times that he disliked the Sixth. He even told Mahler that he thought the second subject in the first mvt. was too "sentimental," to which Mahler, probably wisely, said nothing. Unfortunately, this meant nobody would record my favorite Mahler symphony until Mitropoulos in the 50s. It wasn't even premiered in the US until around that time I think.
In the good olds days, conductors picked the works that they had affinity with and which they knew they could pull of successfully - rather than feeling the obligation to tackle all 9-10 for commercial reasons, accepting the certainty of recording some duds in the progress.
So I very much respect Walter for sticking to his favorites. Klemperer too, he seemed the type to do a wonderful 6th, he conducted the piece several times, but never recorded it. I certainly would trade a recording of the 6th for that surreal 7th he did with the Philharmonia that was so slow that at certain spots, the orchestra started falling apart. Really strange, because he assisted Mahler at the premiere, so he must have known the composer's intentions. Shows that those stubborn big personality old-timey conductors weren't always reliable mediums of the composers they knew personally.
Thank you for another great and highly informatove video. I think for the money and quality as well as the costs, the Bertini and Inbal sets are my absolute favorites.
This is very helpful. Thanks.
My live, attended performances of Mahler have all been with Tilson Thomas. I loved them. My spotty discography is just flat out unsatisfying, though I love my fourth with Kathleen Battle.
I saw a Tilson Thomas live Mahler 9th w. San Francisco symphony that knocked my socks off. Took me to another world.
Dave! Love the hysterectomy shtik in your intro to Michael Tilson Thomashevsky's Mahler "Procedure" :)
Hi David and readers, For many years I was searching for the ideal or best recordings of my favourite works. I read a lot of specialised magazines and listen a lot to records (I worked for many year in a record shop). What striked me was that often ‘journalist’ or ‘reviewers’ were so in contradiction with each other. I still read many specialised papers/apps. A recent example is the 4th from Mahler by Roth which was receiving only praise in Gramophone, but was criticised by Diapason. My view now is that there are bad, good and excellent records of every work, but a best doesn’t exist in my view. This inside opened my listen experience much more, as I am not in search, just enjoying the view of the musicians. I am writing this while listening to Mahler’s 9th by Karajan which I didn’t know so much. Thanks for the recommendation. It is splendid, but I can honestly not say if it is better or worse than for example Klemperer. It is for sure different. Those days I don’t buy records anymore, but listen through a streaming service, which makes it so easy to listen too many different versions. Maybe I’ll put Klemperer’s 9th to follow.
I am approaching a similar philosophical state to that of what you have adumbrated.
I too wasted too much time looking for 'the best' now getting more fun enjoying the differences, and coming to my own conclusions as to what I subjectively enjoy more (although even this changes depending upon my mood, and what season it is, and many other variables.)😂
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Hello Dave.
As I was one of those who asked you to do a talk about Mahler complete symphony cycles I would like to thank you so very much for making it. I have listening to Mahler for 30 years and I own a lot of recordings of all of his works. My first experience of Mahler was his third symphony in Bernstein's first recording whith New York Phil. on Sony. I was sold at once!
I instantly knew that I had to listen to all of his symphonies. And now I know that a Mahler expert like you also belive that Bernstein can bring out more than most of the music.
By the way I believe that Bertini's cycle still is available at some sellers.
Best wishes Fred.
Thank you for assessing these collections and for your invaluable insights.
I like that the Gielen box has petty much EVERYTHING in it, not just the symphonies. I think Bertini would be my #1 pick, but I could easily live with any the last 6 or 7 boxes that you chose. Well done.
Excellent overview of a really difficult topic. My favorite part was the comparison of performances from the Bernstein cycles. You're right. You can make the best Mahler cycle ever if you pick between the two Bernsteins. However, I find it even more difficult. For example, BOTH versions of the Sixth are a treasure but in different ways! The New York Philharmonic one is more driven and intense in the first three movements, but the Vienna Philharmonic version's finale is orders of magnitude better! What's worse, you can't even just paste the first three movements from New York to the last movement from Vienna because they wouldn't make sense together. It takes the somewhat slower pace from Vienna in the beginning to get to that amazing finale. The agony of being a Mahler fan!
So true!
I used to wonder if my failure to respond to Rattle (in *any* symphonies, not just in Mahler's) was evidence of my being invincibly stupid, since British critics always spoke of him as being scarcely less than the Fourth Person of the Holy Trinity. It's therefore a relief to learn from this video that Dr. Hurwitz, who knows far more about Mahler performances than I ever will, can't summon up much enthusiasm for Rattle's recorded work either.
Thank god for DH I felt exactly the same
+1
He is ridiculously overhyped.
I have never been into much of anything by Rattle. I will never understand the hype.
Funny how the Berlin Philharmonic must have been intensively reading (and believing) Gramophone magazine back in the days when he conducted the CBSO before hiring him!
For me the main points here are...
Don't buy Mahler boxes
Sample - and construct a playlist from your favourites.
Because your favourites will probably change over time anyway.
Chailly. Fine, but he doesn't inspire me. Don't know why. Also, it may be my tin ears, but I feel the recordings sometimes have too much reverb, which is daft when the Amsterdam hall has such great natural sound.
Also I think the Abbado Chicago 7th is fabulous.
Loved this talk David and have been hugely impressed by the Ozawa/Saito Kinen 2nd which I'd never considered until you championed it. Thanks again from across the pond.
Hah! Perfect timing. I just finished my July as always listening to several Mahler cycles - six this year, including all your top ones. But frankly, compared to Bernstein, Bertini, Gielen, even Ozawa, I found the Chailly set to be somewhat too buttoned up and restrained. The playing was immaculate, the recorded sound excellent. It was the conducting that is just too cool. Maybe just me after too many Mahler cycles. I hope that Sony re-releases a cheap box with the Edo de Waart cycle from the Netherlands that I missed on the original RCA release.
When I moved to Boston in the early eighties, the critics were intent on running Ozawa out of town, and in truth, his concerts near the end could be very routine. Funny how his BSO discography has stood the test of time quite well. I often find myself surprised at how good some of his recordings are.
Ozawa is very underrated.
To be fair, he (and the late Jessye Norman) allowed me to appreciate Bizet’s second-rate opera Carmen for what it is.
I think he stayed too long, perhaps because he wanted to emulate the lengthy tenure his idol Karajan had with BPO. As orchestras have grown in their technical quality, the power of conductors has lessened; after ca. 7 years, there are very few conductors who have a lot that's new to offer. Also, the longer they stay, the more personnel decisions they end up making, and no matter how well-founded those decisions might be, those decisions will always alienate some. After a while, the credit limit on good will is reached.
I also think Ozawa faced a fair amount of explicit and implicit anti-Asian racism; its often forgotten how common it was to hear the artistry of Asian classical musicians diminished with some form of "'they' are good technically, but 'they' don't understand the music on an emotional level." Versions of this meme regularly appeared on reviews of Ozawa/BSO concerts. It was really ugly.
@@Anthonyprinciotti I agree with that last part. The attitude toward Ozawa was always a little condescending, even in his early beads-and-turtlenecks phase. Ours is a hidebound, conservative town when it comes to the arts.
@Mog Mason When it comes to Carmen, attending repeated performances and having a number of different recordings has all helped in teaching me two things --
A ) Carmen works better as a piece done almost as a play with lithe tempi and textures and the original spoken dialogues, and
B ) its music attains greatness in Jose's vocal writing, not Carmen's; it takes a Jose with the emotional concentration of a Vickers or a Fabiano to reveal Bizet's genius at musical characterization, since Jose's music is really the heart of the score.
Apart from having many loose recordings of the Mahler symphonies, as far as complete sets are concerned I have the complete Haitink (agree with you that his second recoding of no.1 is better and his no. 6 is a miss - Haitink never got no.6 right). And I also have the complete Kubelik. VERY satisfied indeed with both sets. But my favorite set - after listening to it a number of times, despite anyone's opinion regarding it, remains BOULEZ - and all of them. I find it a utterly thrilling set! Many criticise his no.6, but no.6 is exactly the Boulez Mahler that got me to buy his whole set. That is how taste differs.
But after reading many reviews by numerous critics over many years , I have come to the conclusion that there are no other set of musical works about which musical critics differ as much as the issue regarding which are the best Mahler symphony recordings. Ask a 100 different critics for their preferred recordings of nos. 1 to 9 and you will get a 100 different combinations.
The Boulez 6th is also the one that got me listening to the rest of his performances of the Mahler symphonies. His 6th remains my hands-down favourite performance of that symphony and were I forced to live the rest of my life with only one box-set of the Mahler symphonies, Boulez' would be my hands-down choice. But yes: as you say, the Mahler symphonies are deeply divisive for critics and fans alike, in terms of how we respond to the vast range of performances we will get to hear when we enjoy his compositions. This is one area in which we could all stand to cultivate the "live and let live" attitude!
Boulez 6th but also 5th and 2th and 3th recorded with the Vienna SO on DGG 4D technique, are the very best recorded MAHLER performances. They are all great, and I indeed do not agree to Dave Hurwirz his opinion on these. I have these in my collection, and I test and demonstrate with these oftenly because of the best of the best orchestra recordings ever!!.
But if I have to the choose the very best of the 6th, it would be the Chailly, and no other comes close to it! Only the Boulez last part of the 6th is also equally beautiful (and so much better recorded!). If I would have to choose the 5th best it is the 2 year ago not available Eliahu Inbal version on DENON. Frankly no one comes close but only Bernstein with the Vienna. But not to the emotionality Inbal displays. Hurwitz did not mention this because it was not available 2 years ago.
Many thanks! Ever so Intersting. Will try and get hold of the Bertini box
As a young musician in the early 1970's, Abravanel's Mahler cycle was all I could afford and it was how I came to know the symphonies. Later in life, as an experienced musician with a bit more cash, I acquired other, more "celebrated" sets and to this day I keep the Kubelik set around as a baseline reference. (Bernstein's NYPO box never excited me - the orchestra sounds seedy at times and the vocalists are unreliable.) Recently, however, I have returned to the Utah versions and found how deeply impressed I continue to be by them. Yes, the orchestra is not top tier (there are the occasional clunkers), but the Mormon Tabernacle acoustics and choir are wonderful and the Dolby recordings warm, unfussy, and remarkably clear - as are Abravanel's interpretations. I would choose his sensible yet cannily theatrical instincts over most of the recent *star* conductors of today who try to make their mark with questionable "personal nuances". Davrath in No. 4 is perfection. Sill's contribution is small, but hearing her soar over the mass forces behind her in No. 2 delivers a sort of cosmic thrill other performances miss. This is more than nostalgia for my early days of Mahler discovery. This is solid, satisfying Mahler conducting. Abravanel's set is certainly not a first choice, but as a supplement (at a bargain price) it is one to seriously consider adding to a collection.
Mahler wanted an even bigger orchestra for the 8th, but they couldn't find a large enough planet on which to perform it.
You've now done a complete Mahler Cycle cycle. Thanks for the always enjoyable work! Now you need to redo your talks on 7 and 8, since they were brief and didn't get the Full Hurwitz.
I've been listening with some great pleasure (some) recently to Abbado's first box . In part this was inspired by your discussion of the Chicago 5th as one of the great 5ths. I listened to it, and boy is it ever! This one ought to have been in the box rather than his Berlin remake. The Chicago 6th is good, but the strings are recorded in such a dry and brittle way that I find them distracting. The Chicago 7th is one of the absolute best out there, even if Abbado seems slightly embarrassed by the cowbells. What I was most surprised by, however, were the Vienna 3rd and 9th. They're both really quite good! The first movement of the 3rd is particularly fine, with some examples of Abbado at his fussy best. The way he gets the cellos to attack the run at 36 is the most "Wild" (the score's marking) I've ever heard; it must have taken days to practice that. The Vienna 9th is really first class in the initial three movements, and the recorded sound is perfectly idiomatic for Mahler's sound world (I recently did an A/B comparison with this recording and Alan Gilbert's on BIS and found the latter a little too silky and smooth in the sound department). I think the Abbado box would have been stronger overall had they just boxed up his Chicago and Vienna recordings (thereby leaving the 8th out altogether).
Again, thank you!
I don't think I'll do remakes anytime soon, but thanks for the vote of confidence. I think Abbado's M3, as you say, has a good first movement, but is dull as ditch water after that. The Ninth is a total non-happening. The Berlin version has far more character and communicative urgency, although it's not a favorite.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks, Dave. I'll give the Vienna and Berlin 9ths the ol' A/B and see what I think. It's been forever since I listened to the Berlin. And I was being a little cheeky about redoing 7 and 8. There's so much more music out there to talk about than Mahler. Looking forward to you doing videos on the rest of RVW's symphonies! ;-)
All we need from Chailly is a commercial recording of Das Lied von der Erde, then Decca can put all of his Mahler recordings in a giant box and it will be a single-conductor Mahler collection for the ages.
I'm surprised he doesn't have a DLvdE yet, of all things. It may have to be with the Lucerne Festival Orchestra at this point.
Also, Chailly's incomplete Mahler symphony video cycle with the Gewandhausorchester Leipzig features even better interpretations, believe it or not. It's absolutely the best video cycle out there (sorry Abbado). This guy really knows his Mahler.
This is really an above and beyond great presentation, Dave. some random stuff:
Care to comment on Inbal's cycle?
A note to those contemplating Chailly's cycle. When they came out as single symphonies, Decca included other music: New Vienna School, Diepenbrock, Mahler arrangement of a Bach suite. This would float the boats of some people (like me), but you have to put up with the hassle of buying singles for questionable availability and for (considerably) more money. still, something to consider
Bernstein's Mahler 8 on video from Vienna is worth a look for me for the act and facial expressions Bernstein does at the beginning on the podium to motivate the forces involved before a single note is sounded. What a charismatic maniac!
I too was hoping for my boy Inbal to show up 😔. His 6th is the best for me (along with the 2020 MTT, *not* the mannered 2001 one).
@@janouglaeser8049 I like his 5th a lot!
@@peterkuntz6076 I also do, though my favorite is Chailly
Having read the rave critics referred to here, I remember buying Rattle's Birmingham Mahler 2 in vinyl for pence as a library cast-off. The record looked in perfect nick and I was so excited to get it back and play it. It took about eight minutes to conclude that Rattle's reading was the worst I'd heard, "mannered and ridiculous and narcissistic" (I know this referred to one of Maazel's, but the term combo. does seem to have plenty of applications.
That Gielen guy seems to fulfill all my Mahler needs. A one-stop-shop, a Swiss Army Knife. Thanks, Mr. Hurwitz, for simplifying my listening. PS: Is Messiaen's Quatour pour la fin du temps on your to-do-list?
Not right now so I'll simplify your life: Tashi.
You had me at Rattle. And it isnt just Mahler. He's truly bad and proof that hype can get you far. But ears don't lie and his work won't stand the test of time.
Thanks for this Dave! One minor point. Maazel’s Second set was actually the download only set with the NYPO. I think it’s actually his best one.
That's true--I ignored it because it was never issued as physical product.
David Hurwitz of course. I thought that might be the case. Thanks for replying!
Apart from the 10th, Rattle also did an excellent Klagende Lied - if we want to expand the Mahler cycle to include that early work.
No, he didn't. It was only fair, and poorly recorded to boot.
Just found that Solti’s Mahler cycle issued back in 1970s has all the versions uncle Dave mentioned here! So Solti worth a shot for complete cycle! In vinyl! Yay! Apparently back then they know these stuff as good as anyone out there. And it just goes to show how the industry changed over the year completely.
THe SOLTI 2th from 1966 is still one to be the very best and most beautiful!
@@robertjanwestendorp3718 I agree. The whole set is amazing!
I had to laugh that it was the Maazel box you first went for as an example for a bad cycle. Just a couple of days ago I gave this one a try on a whim, was a little intrigued at first, but by the time the second symphony started I got thoroughly annoyed, if not even bored, by the approach. I mean, if I wanted to listen to Mahler at 0.75 speed I might just as well slow the tape myself.
I agree with your top recommendations. My top two would be Kubelík and Chailly. I can’t choose a favorite of them. They also musically compliment each other very nicely.
I also love the Bertini, Gielen, and Columbia Bernstein. I used to like the DG ones but now I find them a bit too melodramatic and egotistical for me, like a far better version of the Maazel cycle you first mentioned (again, FAR better than the Maazel though). Call me boring, but I just like when conductors don’t fuss with the score. Kubelík and Chailly give it to me straight.
You mentioned that you consider Tennstedt's live Mahler 5 a "smoker."
Any chance we could get a video on your favorite "smoker" performances? Not so much for Mahler but in general.
Interesting thought...
I would also like to see a talk about "smokers".
@@DavesClassicalGuide we hope you consider it!
I have seen the performance from Tensstedt with the LPO a few years later on Tele. There was an introduction with the notorious filmdirector Ken Russel. I immediately bought it on cd afterwards. The fifth is indeed awesome. Also a good "resurrection"(2nd)and a fab sound: Otto Klemperer with S.Orch. des Bayerischen Rundfunks. But yeah, that goes for individual performances. Box sets may be a cheaper alternative.
I really love Chailly's cycle as a whole, with many of the individual recordings being my favorites. I was 'lured' in, a long time ago, by the official reviewers to many of your 'bad' cycles/recordings (Rattle, Nott), and I don't ever listen to them anymore. As a sidenote, Rattle's Mahler/Cook 10 with Berlin is my favorite recording of that work.
I own the Bertini cycle, and I should listen to it more, because I seldom do (because I prefer other performances of all the individual symphonies, and I listen to them mostly). I have begun to listen to Gielen, and I am really thinking about getting his complete Mahler cycle (or at least some of his Mahler recordings - I already own the 'In Memoriam Michael Gielen' 2-CD set: his latest Mahler 6 recording is just perfect for me).
One little trivia thing to laugh about, for you all: I love Abbado's Berlin Mahler 8.
For me too the Rattle 10th berlin recording is the best of all. I really do not get Hurwitz how he chooses. He dismisses everything of Ratlle. I understand for a lot of his performances but not his 10th. Hurwitz mostly chooses from out of more technical sense. I think he like everybody does not get into the feeling of some music. Its just not his thing. If its too shouty or to weird in his mind he blows it of. So he blows of Solti, while Solti with LSO made the far most gripping first part of the 2th ever. He can not understand sometimes the true expression the artist was looking for. Chailly for instance plays Mahler very technically and a little underplayed emotionally. I do not favour all his performances at all. And I was there live listening to his performances. Haitink had such more intense Mahlers performed. None of the performances of Chailly except for the 6th and for the finale of the 8th are my first choices. Its recorded fenomenally but it misses the magic of Mahler. Chailly recently recorded Beethoven with the Leipzig and that box is absolutely fenomenal. So I like Chailly a lot but only very few Mahler performances.
I like your comment " inmates running the asylum " hilarious and appropriate - kudos
I have the Chailly Mahler collection, why because I sang as a young boy in one of the boychiores, so I have a sentimental attachment with Chailly, who was a great conducteur. I was a little disapointed about the recording mastering quality of the performances since I was there live on the stage with the live recording of the 8th symphony. Chailly really understands Mahler and his collection shows it.
Dear David, thank you for another great video. Please make a "Best and worst Mozart Requiem" video too.
Sorry, don't care for the work.
@@DavesClassicalGuide But your analytics do & you know it ;)
@@estel5335 Yeah, but this one II still won't do (at least not for a while).
Thank you so much for this talk! Just hearing chailli 5th and it's amazing! All the dark voices from the castle appear!! So exciting!!
Did you try to CZcams this title:"chailli mozart wrong concert" it's a fantastic anecdote from Chailli. And my proud for being Portuguese:-)
I too was delightfully surprised by Abravanal's Mahler. The fifth I thought was very fine.
I agree that the Rattle Mahler 10th is outstanding.
There’s more Mahler cycles than great conductors. Although it wouldn’t be a perfect one…I wish we had a complete one with Klemperer. Ah, the grumpy uncle of music, Otto! 🎵
Maybe there's a talk in the not-quite-complete-Mahler-cycle cycles. I'm thinking in particular of Levine, Kubelik/BRSO (which you graciously hat tip) and Rosbaud (which, of course, has an excellent video all to itself). I mention these because I think I'd prefer them to a lot of the complete ones you surveyed here. Surprisingly successful although not complete. Sort of like Mahler agonizing about finishing a symphony numbered the "ninth" thinking that would be his last. A not quite complete Kondrashin cycle kicking around as well, if I recall correctly.
Mr. Hurwitz, thank you very much for the thorough and very well informed video. I very much appreciate it.
Glad it was helpful!
I heard Sinopoli conduct a live Mahler 9th that was totally unmoving. That's an achievement in itself.
Nothing sadder than a boring and unmoving Mahler’s ninth
I had occasion to see James Levine with the Chicago do the 9th at Carnegie Hall in 2005, and I was *really* surprised how shallow it was. Especially having seen his totally riveting _Wozzeck_. It was like a lunchtime version of Mahler 9.
@@mjears I don't recall Levine doing Mahler 9 at Carnegie with Chicago, and I have found no evidence of it, but he did conduct Mahler 9 in a pretty loose and messy performance with the Met Orchestra at Carnegie in 2004.
@@jwinder2 Quite right! That was the one. My mistake. Thanks for catching it.
The Bertini set absolutely knocked me out with how wonderful those performances are. I had never heard of him and stumbled upon that set, wow, so powerful and consistently powerful. Similar remarks on the Chailly except I had expected that of him. The Tilson Thomas has had a large impact on young up and coming conductors in terms of interpretation, perhaps the biggest influence since Bernstein. The Solti set with Chicago has some great moments, even if some of the interpretations are disjointed or sometimes disconnected. The brass playing on that set is still a reference point for every living brass player in this repertoire. The recent Vanska cycle was so disappointing, he knows the rep so well but seems to just get lost in "refined" playing that is unutterably boring every other recording he makes. Oh well
Any comments retroactively, Dr. Dave, about Eliahu Inbal's Mahler? I certainly do not have the knowledge base you do about the discography (nor the funds to purchase all the recordings^^), but he did complete a full cycle in Frankfurt, no-?
Dave, I completely agree with your top recommendation. Chailly is very impressive overall... I personally like his 2nd, the finale especially is very well done, I think. Gielen and Bernstein, really top notch. I personally never felt so much for Bertini. I bought the set when it came out, following the little hype that surrounded it. But I wasn't really impressed that much, it never grew on me. I think it's well played, very well recorded but lacks refinement in many spots. I truly believe Ozawa deserves more credit though: it's a very fine set and underappreciated. And there's a lot to be said for many of the other sets in individual symphonies... Wether it's Sinopoli, Kubelik, MTT, Boulez or even Zinman. Nice video!
Thanks for this and the other Mahler talks. They are very helpfull. I collect the symphonies seperately. I have a good Day, listening to You and then finding Muti with the 1st. A complete Muti Mahler cykle 😏
I fully stand your recommendations!!
One conduct’s Mahler cycle I would love to see is Honeck. He has a Mahler 5 he did in the Philharmonie on CZcams that is just phenomenal in my opinion.
Funny my impression was that they were pretty tuckered out by the finale. But it was very good.
Thanks. You saved me from wasting money on the Rattle set
I just ordered a box; I'm scared. So many choices and my head is spinning. I've never heard any Mahler in its entirety, but only the occasional excerpt. Based on what was readily available and cost of different sets, I chose the Bernstein DG box to start. It seemed a bit less available than the Sony. Is that a sign? I don't know, but the other sets in the highest praised category were either "currently unavailable" or quite pricey due to apparent scarcity. I want to do this right, so later I can add the seemingly more available Sony. Thank you for your kindly guidance.
You'll do fine.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I really do appreciate the guidance, because there is a reason for my Mahlerian trepidation. My grandfather was the host of a weekend classical music radio program. Unfortunately, I never got to hear it, because he was retired by the time I came along. I'm told that he absolutely loved Mahler; but in my father's house, no Mahler. Dad liked a lot of classical music, but couldn't stand Mahler. So, that was effectively that until I started finding excerpts of different horn solos from the symphonies here on CZcams. I'm an amateur horn player, so they grabbed my attention. I think now is the time to move beyond the tastes of my father that I was - in part - inculcated. Thank you again.
Wow! Oscar left me with the two Bernsteins, the Gielen and the Bertini. (And the Rattle, which I have to say I rather like, especially the 2nd. I may have to splash out on the Chailly.
Great survey, thanks Dave!
Thanks so much for this much needed (and appreciated!) post. And (phew!) I already have the Gielen. Cheers.
I am old enough to remember when the Schwann catalog (anyone remember what that was?) had only a handful of listings for a couple of symphonies.
I cut my Mahlerian teeth on Abravanel and still turn to him when I want to remind myself how unpretentious, unmannered Mahler sounds. The sound quality is also pretty good.
Great video David. Yes indeed Chailly is the man I couldn't agree more. And that Bertini 8 is terrific. Speaking of Neumann I think he did a few symphonies like 5 and 7 better with the Gewandhaus in Leipzig on Berlin Classics. Anyway all your recommendations are spot on. Mahler I agree is a difficult composer to box under one conductor alone. Perhaps Bernstein's two boxes are the closest we get. Cheers !
Hi again, I'm assuming you have probably done this already but I just haven't seen it. Have you reviewed the release of complete Mahler Symphonies by the Berlin Philharmonic. Thank you
No, and I'm not sure that I will. It's just very expensive.
@@DavesClassicalGuide okay, I understand that. thank you sir. Steve
I love a good cycle, and buy them often. I have never bought a Mahler cycle, and probably never will, for all the reasons you mention…
I want to thank you for taking time both to listen to and discuss so many Mahler performances. I am obsessed with Mahler’s music, but I do not consider myself part of the Mahler cult primarily because I think both his seventh and eighth symphonies are as outstanding as his other works and simply suffer from poor performances, and, secondarily, because I think the completions of the tenth are mostly just a fun exercise. That said, over the course of a year, I assembled four Mahler symphony cycles from four box sets where I removed individual symphonies where the performances disappointment me and replaced them with a performances that I wish the conductor and orchestra from the given box set had emulated instead. The four box sets I obtained are Tennstedt’s, Bertini’s, Chailly’s, and Gielen’s.
For Tennstedt’s, I kept his 2, 5 (live), 6, 8, and Das Lied. I replaced 1 and 4 with Kubelik/BRSO, 3 and 7 with Bernstein/NYPO (DG), and 9 with Solti/LSO.
For Bertini’s, I kept his 1, 5, 7, 8, and 9. I replaced 2 and 3 with Litton/Dallas SO, 4 with Maazel/VPO, 6 with Bernstein/VPO (DG), and Das Lied with Kmentt/Baker/Kubelik/BRSO.
For Chailly’s, I kept his 1, 3, 4, 6, 7, and 9. I replaced 2 with Fischer/Budapest FO, 5 with Stenz/Melbourne SO, 8 with Wit/Warsaw NPO, and added Das Lied with King/Baker/Haitink/RCO.
Finally, for Gielen’s, I kept his 1, 2, 3, 6, 7, and 8. I replaced 4 with Fischer/Budapest FO, 5 with Solti/CSO, 9 with Ozawa/Saito KO, and Das Lied with Kollo/Minton/Solti/CSO.
Now I have a choice of four very enjoyable cycles of all nine symphonies and Das Lied that I can listen to on long road trips:)
I have the Rattle cycle and ,while it is not
as great as Bernstein's ny phil or Tennstedt's,it is very, very good.
No, it's not.
How do you feel about the "Complete Mahler Symphonies by Bernstein with the New York Philharmonic from Sony Classical"? Should I get the one you recommended or this one? Thank you.
From the UK - I have the Bertini set - given a "Get it while you can" recommendation from "Gramophone" over
here and available at an unmissable bargain price.
Thanks to the review at Classics Today some time ago, I got Bertini on EMI. Thank you!
Glad I could help!
Apart from the single-conductor boxes there are some mixed "let's throw in what we have or can license for cheaps" box sets too.
I always enjoyed that Brilliant Classics complete symphonies set with some Dutch recordings (Vonk, Haenchen, nice 4 but underplayed 2 and fluffy 6), some Neumann and Masur in Leipzig (5, 7, 9 , all pretty solid) and the odd ones out: Simonov's 1st (meh), Horenstein's "classic" 3rd (what's all the fuzz about?) and Järvi's exciting Gothenborg 8th. As much a mix of succesful and not so as most of the single-conductor sets.
Hello! Thanks for the video!
What options would you recommend for someone trying to purchase High Resolution versions (88.2 khz/24 bit and up) of Mahler cycles? I know the options are more limited, and thus far, the only "complete" ones I can find are the Kubelik and Haitnik ones. Failing that, what performances would be the best options to "assemble" one?
I know those are difficult questions to answer, but I'm relatively new to purchasing classical music in general and am unfamiliar with this composer to boot, which is making choosing stuff difficult. (I'm wanting to purchase Mahlers stuff in large part due to Symphony 5 - Adagietto, which is in the 50 Greatest Pieces of Classical Music set by the London Philharmonic Orchestra. In general, I'm trying my best to hunt down all the stuff by the composers on that box set.)
Thank you for your time, and for your comprehensive reviews! I hope you have a wonderful day! :)
San Francisco under Thomas was recorded in high resolution (SACD) and, if you want to go that route, excellent vinyl. Let me tell you my opinion -- and Dave does not like audio equipment discussed here. You are better off getting a high quality CD transport and DAC, and amp and speakers for that matter, than spending your money on high resolution and expensive versions of music. The human ear can hear so much. You can cost effectively assemble Dave's recommended and reference recordings which are timeless and classic --- in rather than "digitall" recordings which may or may not be of superior quality.
I had heard a couple of the Abravanel performances back in the day and was not impressed. But on your recommendation, I looked up the finale of the fourth -- it's on CZcams -- and very soon came THAT close to weeping like a girl. Natania Davrath is IT. She's the performer I've wanted to hear for nearly half a century. Without realizing it, Mahler wrote this movement for her.
And now I'll listen to the rest of your recommendations. My own pick? I dunno. I grew up with Mahler in Lenny-vision, and that experience will always mean a lot to me.
Great survey, Dave, thank you! I suppose a Mahler Dudamel cycle will materialize sooner than later. I got his latest take on the 8th (with the LAPO) - honestly, I don't know what to make of it... It's very well played, the sonics sound great to me, but the tenor has a weird voice and the general approach appears to gain in symphonic sweep at the expense of emotional depth.
Thank you for drawing attention to Sir Simon’s prattle….agree with you completely
The CBSO are my local (though still an hour away) professional symphony orchestra. The only Mahler I've heard them perform live was 8, with Mirga Gražinytė-Tyla in January 2020, and on that occasion they were fabulous! My Mahler 2 CD (well, 2 CD set) also happens to be Rattle with the CBSO, but recorded in Watford before they had Symphony Hall - not sure if that's the Mahler 2 in your Rattle set. I found that recording excellent, but then again, I have only my own amatuer performances (most recently with Leamington Sinfonia conducted by Joe Davies in 2023) to compare that with, so maybe I'm missing something even better.
Thomas's Mahler's 8th, 7th, 3rd, (with Kindertonllieder,). and 6th all won Grammys as either Recording of the Year or Best Orchestral Performance. That is quite an accomplishment for any cycle.
It's completely meaningless and has nothing to do with the quality of the performances.
Not qualifying here because missing symphonies 2 and 8 (easily completable) is James Levine’s boxed set from RCA Red Seal. These are readings from the seventies, If memory serves, and I bet that sonically umpteen CDs have an edge over these. But what energy and beautiful playing Levine calls forth!
The Bertini is available on Amazon UK if anyone is interested.
Really? I can't find it.
Separated at birth: Simon Rattle and Bilbo Baggins...
... both of whom should never be allowed to get their hands on The Ring.
@@ftumschk HHAHHHAHAHAHA made my day
@@ftumschk Same goes for most stage directors!
😂😂😂😂😂
😂
I recall the Abravanel 2 got a rave review in High Fidelity for the sound
That was then.
I think that was the review that called the performance "Apocalyptic" in its headline. Well..... maybe, maybe not. But we were all "pulling" for Abravanel back then. (The low oboes get a bar behind near the very end, right before the final page of FFF E-Flat major. My brother and I always got a kick out of that; we even thought it might be a new "critical" edition that revised the oboe parts. LR
@@HassoBenSoba hi no it was an article that discussed various audio blockbusters. Besides singling out parts of that Mahler Second, it discussed portions of the Solti Gotterdammerung,Leinsdorf Lohengrin and others which continue to impress to this day
It was in the June 68 issue Eight Stereo Spectaculars to Judge Speakers by. Also discussed how you assess your speaker was the Ormandy Verdi Requiem on Columbia, Karajan Fledermaus on London,Shostakovich sym 11 on Capitol with Stokowski, Shostakovich Sym 5 with Bernstein, Strauss Also Sprach with Ormandy on Columbia and Stravinsky L’Histoire du Soldat with Stokowski on Vanguard. The article discussed esch recording in detail and how to use it judge your speakers
Great to see Chailly grabbing the Hurwitz bowl, I always thought his cycle was superb, generally both more passionate and more modernist-analytic (in a good sense) than Haitink. Though I think Haitink did a wonderful partial Mahler-cycle with his live Concertgebouw Christmas TV recordings, which have been boxed up by Philips too. Not sure they're available anymore.
As a Dutch teen, these TV specials were revelatory, back when classical music was still allowed on prime time TV... I never heard a more convincing 3rd than that Haitink Christmas performance, the concluding adagio was breathtaking, profound in a way Abbado wished he could be in Lucerne. And I remember a brilliant 7th too. (I've got mixed feelings about Chailly's 7th - very slow first movement, approaching Klemperer's infamous half-speed 7th, after which thinks take off more conventionally, luckily.)
And yes, I'm going to aim for the title of most pedantic commenter of the day by saying it wasn't Mahler who had that low timpano (singular of timpani, right?) constructed, it was Mengelberg, I think it was for the first Mahler festival in Amsterdam in 1920?
The Svetlanov Malher is sentimental to me. Yes they are trash, I agree, but Malher 5 with Svetlanov and Swedish Radio was my first Malher Symphony. I heard it on radio and it opened the door for me. I have now found better (Bernstein) and worse (Simon-Rattle) but it will always have a spot. Sometimes we like trashy music.
Yes, sometimes we do!
I also must say I am tempted to buy the stinky Svetlanov cycle for kicks but it seems to be obscenely expensive.
Thank you for your recommendations! They have really helped me enjoy Mahler more. It is interesting that you mention Simon Rattle’s cycle because when I started my Mahler journey, the first Mahler CD I bought was Rattle’s 5th with Berlin on EMI and I hated it. It put me off so much that I avoided Mahler for many years. I just thought the music was not for me. However, also interestingly enough, it was Abbado who really got me back to listening to Mahler (his first DG cycle). It is interesting because you don’t talk about it at all and in your other videos you consistently don’t consider his Mahler to be any good. Having said that, I love most of your top recommendations including Bernstein, Haitink, Bertini and Chailly, though I find the first movement of his 6th to be extremely slow and boring.
I do not like Chaillys performances at all. Way too technical and without the intensity. But on that 6th which is my favourite 6th anyway the tempo of the first parts is just perfect. Its heavy and 'schleppend' the way Mahler intended. No one has that gripping power in the first part than Chailly does bit it could even be better than that. I concur, but nevertheless all the others just rush way too fast over this or are not consitently enough and miss that heavy Schleppend way totally. Not Chailly!