WARNING ⚠️ Fabric / Clay Soil-The Great Debate -FRENCH DRAIN
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- čas přidán 24. 06. 2022
- Should you wrap the stone in in Geo Fabric? Watch and see 1st hand homeowners experience with this system. Everyday we receive calls asking for help because they have wrapped the stone with fabric and it does not work!!
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geo fabric, french drain, yard drain, catch basin, flooded back yard - Jak na to + styl
The westside of my house used to be a soggy mess like the first guy. French Drain and catch basins saved the day.
This is so refreshing to hear some one finally say it!!
Awesome video Chuck. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge !
Thanks for clarifying the issue. It answered my questions.
Apple Drains - - best videos on the art of French Drains! I've learned quite a bit from your many years of experience. We have red clay soil - - so I think I will follow your advice on the Geo fabric!
I’m a woman and I’m making a French drain this is the best idea I’ve heard yet thank you I like to do something right the first time and not repeat it again
The first video shows that the fabric was woven. check 3:32 and you can see the definitive pattern in the fabric. Might as well have wrapped it with a plastic bag. 2nd video was non-woven, but you could also see water percolating through it - just not all that quickly.
yep I thought that first one was woven. Nothing is getting through that. I would think the non woven would be acceptable but apparently it is not. My understanding was that making a larger burrito with more gravel inside allows additional surface area of fabric to flow water.
We had issues with non-woven geotextile in our clay soil very shortly after installing it. We had done the same open top "burrito wrap" and at first it worked, but definitely drained slower. After a short period of time and the clay turning to pudding, the fabric clogged all around. We've since removed the fabric and did the following. Widened the trench to 28", depth of around 20", put in just stone, pipe and catch basins and left it open at the top. Stone we are using is round rock ranging from 2"-4". We were able to reuse some of the old but brought in many additional yards to fill the new trench. No issues since.
I used fabric as well, and now the drain isn't working well. How did you get the fabric out? I don't want to have to redo the whole drain.
@@mulechicken Depends how much aggregate / rocks you have. My initial trench wasn't that big so I was able to just remove some stone and pull the fabric out. If its been there a while, it may be too rooted and mud locked to pull out and you'd have to remove everything and start over.
My question is; how do you know if it was the fabric causing the problems with all the changes you made? It sounds like it could have been any one of the things you did that made all the difference. Just wondering.
@@irafair3015 Our drain is tied into the city sewer line by permit. With the fabric on, there was almost no water entering the the sewer system. Once the fabric was removed, it flowed with no resistance and still does to this day. Yes, we widened the trench by about 8" and added about 6" of depth but that was a decision made only based on the volume of rainfall we are seeing. For example this month alone we have 16" of rain already. With the fabric on, the water took days to clear out of the yard. Widening and extending the depth doesn't effect flow, the fabric does. Fabric doesn't do good in clay soils. It simply suffocates.
Exactly the same thing happened to us, but I am not sure if i should do it without and speed up the water flow as its draining behind a retaining wall with weep holes at the bottom into permeable sublayer under our patio... However the only option we have is to put the water pipe into the roof guttering and we are worried about it overflowing and flooding as the drain won't be able to take all the water
Im so glad I saw this video. I was about to buy trench man or whatever drain man’s product and wrap it. I had one installed a year ago and it didn’t make it 6 months. I need to redo the whole thing about 200’. My back area is destroyed. I may need to call you soon because I want to do this right the first time.
I used your vids about 4 yrs ago installing French drains on my property in Arkansas.
I had sticky red clay and just the test run with a hose showed my geo fabric was a bad idea. I just used 1/3 more gravel to give it better performance and longer life.
Thanks man!!!
I think you got it!! Thanks, Chuck
I'm in Arkansas about to do the same.
I've seen clay soil migrate into gravel so maybe you're damned if u use fabric and damned if you don't.
Same here when Pea gravel used on 1st drain. Went to larger 2-3" Slag rock. 10 tons later, it worked well. 1-2" on the very bottom then pipe then more Rick to the top. My trench was 18" deep x 12" wide. Catch basin where needed where surface water was pooling amd for pipe clean out. Tying in the roof down spouts was on of the best things I did. Used solid pipe on those. I did a a sump pump on one side of house to get water to the street gutter.
Wow what a great channel. I was making my self sick over this fabric behind my versa loc wall. Just going to back fill with clean trap rock on top of the coragated preforated pipe.
Awesome info. Thank you
Why would anyone use fabric with clay soil? That is just crazy. I have never seen anyone use fabric on a French drain in the south. If you have standing water then catch basins are a must!
Thanks and all the best to you!
I did a 100 foot French drain in my backyard with 5 catch basins along the drain the geo fabric seems to work on my soil so far I didn’t put the fabric on top only on the bottom n sides open French drain it’s base on what soil u have if u need geo fabric or no it looks like they used the wrong fabric kit has to be draining fabric not weed barrier 🤦🏽♂️CHUCK is the number one UTUBER I did all my work thru his videos💯🤙🏽🎯
My opinion is that French drains are a temporary solution in clay soil regardless of how they’re built. Especially if they’re in the lowest area of a yard trying to do the work of catch basins.
They seem to have used a wrong fabric. That doesn't look like the geo fabric, but a landscape fabric, which never works for drainage.
Agreed. This is a landscape fabric, not a geotextile fabric.
Non-woven landscape fabric works fine if the water just trickles, but for a larger volume of water it should be non-woven geotextile or no fabric at all depending on the soil type.
The fabric used looks like woven weed barrier to me. The proper fabric is designed to let the water carry the fine sediment through until everything settles.
Yes, the fabric isn't the right fabric, but I don't care what fabric you use that clay will block any fabric if you don't believe me to test it.. go buy any fabric, put clay on it, spray it with a hose, and it will clog
Chuck, this is very confusing. Last night, I watched one of your videos, and you wrapped the drainage pipe like a burrito. You applied a few inches of 1 and 1-1/2 gravel, then the wrap, then filled the rest with gravel, then wrapped it, then covered it with more gravel, a little bit of soil for the lawn, then new sod.
Now, in this video, you're telling me to not use fabric. Just use gravel and a catch basin. What gives?
I have always put a thin cover of straw in place of fabric on top of my crushed rock then sand on top .
Awesome thanks
Our rule of thumb is in clay we don't wrap but in sandy and loamy soils we wrap. If you have surface water issues you need catch basins so you're spot on. It's all dependent on your soil type and that's back by a soil scientist I know from NC State that has forgotten more on dirt than I'll even know. Good video.
But, doesn't soil get into and plug up the gravel bed within some years? Earthworms would also contribute to that, beside general soil migration due to rain.
@@bonsummers2657 That's why we wrap any system that is a sandy or loamy type soil. We also wrap sandy clays as well. Clay soils do not require wrapping and will function just as well for years to come. However I have found that I rarely come across a purely clay system and I usually always end up with some sort of wrap.
You have to use the ultra premium super special 99999x punched fabric that only I sell at a 10,000% markup!!!!!!
Chuck, if anyone if interest, what i used to do "just before retired" when I was working for the lawn service is when I installed a french drain. I would dig my trench then put down a layer of gravel 1/4 inch around 6 - 12 inch base. Then I would lay my pipe on top of the gravel in the trench. As i go I would install my catch basins in the low spots. I would also after laying my pipe I would bury it in the rest of the gravel with a layer of cloth on the top of the gravel. Cutting it around catch basins. When I was done I would fill it all in with dirt, than put my sod back. Works out great the cloth keeps the dirt out of the top of the gravel and the catch basins pick up the surface water with the french drain pipe pickup the ground water. Were the water gets carried away to daylight wear ever that happens to be.
On some videos I recently watched you say wrap pipe with gravel and fabric. This video you say no. I have very little slop and I was thinking to put in NDS or equal surface drain that I can remove the grate to hose it out. I don’t want do it over and over I’m getting to old.
Need an advice please. Is it better to use Y connector then connect to catch basin or drill a third hole in a square catch basin to connect the 3rd pipe?
I used solid pipe with a sump pump. No issues unless we lose power.
The grid around the sock perforated pipe does allow the water to pass, so, use that type of fabric instead
The correct fabric may work at first, but it will clog up in time. There are 2 types of french drains commonly shown on CZcams. First is to collect ground water. This is for water under the surface that travels to the house. It can be buried and cloth can cover the top of the stones. It provides an easier path for water to go before it gets to your basement or crawl space. It does most of its work in the hours or days after the rain event. This is needed when there's no way to collect the water before it seeps into the ground.
The other common french drain shown on CZcams is an open french drain, which collects the water on the surface. With this drain, the stones are left exposed, not covered. Water can run directly into it during the rain event. Before I'd build an open drain, I'd look into channel and surface drains.
Before installing either type of french drain, all other drainage issues should be addressed. Clean, proper gutters, clean down pipes, water diverted away from the problem area so it doesn't run back, etc and time for the ground to naturally dry out, if you made changes. Although it would cost more to come back and add a french drain a year after installing underground drainage pipes, many may find they don't need them. I think it's safe to say, french drains and sump pumps are the last things to install when there's no other way to do it.
This is the best advice I've heard. There so much conflicting information being passed around, it is almost impossible to determine what to do.
Fabric wont work if its the wrong fabric ... too many use woven or even weed barrier thinking its all the same. The way the water was just percolating through is the exact same as a weed barrier and that is NOT the same a non woven geotextile!
You have to look at it this way depends on how old you are. I say throw down some rock put the pipe down call it a day and if you’re really on top of it every five years have it cleaned out by a cleaner couple hundred bucks guy comes out and cleans it up out
What about in South Florida where we have more of a loam and sand? I was thinking of using the pipe that has the fabric and styrofoam (NDS EZ Flow?) since I don't have a great way of getting that much rock home.
I have to wonder if it would be effective to use fabric on top only to prevent grass roots but then only gravel on the sides/bottom of the pipe. Anyone??
I am running a drain in a small retaining wall. I need to retain the clay soil so it doesn't erode from underneath concrete that sits higher on the slope. Will gravel alone retain the soil?
This could be a lifesaver for me. My soil is SOLID clay, I know bc my neighbor just dug a pool and it was solid clay all the way to the bottom. They never hit anything else.
OK Chuck -- I am sitting here like a Roman watching the GLADIATORS duke it out on the You Tube Arena! This battle between "Fabric Man" and "Stone Man"! How am I supposed to make a wise choice? I am going to try and send you an email and present my questions -- rather than post them here as it gets rather long ---- Thanks Retired Person
What size and type of rock would you use? Crushed rock or riverbed rock? What is a good size trench for 4in pipe?
How do you get access to live help and question/answer sessions?
Yes sir your the master when it comes to drainage Arkansas clay soil Will not work with fabric
Wrong fabric and it's bunched up. How do you stop rock from migrating if you don't use fabric.
Wait. So now I've seen 2 of your videos. In the other one (also from 1 year ago) you say how the only geo-fabric you DO support now is something called "Stay Green"???? -I did a quick Google search and I couldn't find it. Can you please leave a link where I can find it? Much appreciated! :-)
How about using fabric in florida in the sandy soil?
I was going to put slate roof tiles over the top of the pea gravel that surrounds my perforated drainage pipes in a french drain? The reason being because that's what i dug out when i removed the old clay pipes from many years ago and that seemed like a good solution instead of geo textile ? Then cover with top soil? Any comments?
They’ll use fabric because it’s less work and easier to do than gravel. It’s bound to fail in clay.
When I did basement footer drains we actually used two different sized gravel along the footer drain. It won’t fail. The gravel acts as a filter as you can see in the video, the water is clear.
If the company doesn’t use gravel along the French drain it will fail again. Clay soil means no fabric but more gravel.
What stops the clay from sucking up the gravel? How deep of a layer of gravel at the bottom of the trench to make sure that doesn’t happen? I hope my question makes sense
Let's be honest water will always find the void, it does this without fabric in nature. Gravel will be self cleaning with water passing thru it and not having fabric slowing it down.
How can I join one of your zoom calls or set up a video consultation?
Hi Chuk, what kind of pipe should be used .. corrugated or pvc ?
Ps. Thank you!!
whats the name of music towards the end ??
I'm a contractor in Eastern Kentucky. I'm learning the French drain, yard drainage etc. We have clay material around here. My question is, if putting in perforated pipe with gravel, and don't use fabric, won't mud and sediment clog the voids in the gravel and pipe?
Without the correct geo-textile fabric any rock placed in your trench WILL eventually sink or mix with the surrounding clay. The ability of clay to move and tightly form around anything it comes into contact with is what makes it miserable to work with. That is my unsolicited advice contribution.
@@chrisbenoit-hn9dzso theres obviously a clear argument for both. We have had both types of drain, fabric still lets clay in, but definitely doesn't move water quick enough and you end up with the same problem but clogging on the outside of the fabric, however I think i will do the drains again without it and the catch basins double up as a jetting system so if you do get it clogging because you have no fabric i think you should still get longer life and more water out of it if you can clear it out easy with the basins. I noticed after installing fabric the exact same thing happened with the water washing against the side of the fabric and sitting there waiting to drain away. Luckily we have left the drains exposed without putting new topsoil on so we could see what happened and I am so glad we did so we can take them out again
Assume lots of clay, then assume no fabric so only drainage gravel... Then it's ok to cover /back fill with clay (that U dug up) say 2-3 inches thick before soil for grass?
I dont understand in your other video you say wrap the gravel with fabric ...and now uou say not...well i try what i saw in your video didt work...in the vertical drainer..i will take the fabric off to see what. Happen
I live in heavy clay. There is NO good way to drain clay doesn’t matter if wrapped or not. Clay silts into rock as well as fabric.
I have a question I am digging down to the bottom of the foundation to lay the pipe I am going to put down a layer of gravel then the draineh pipe and then more gravel so I was wondering should I lay down the fabric or no? Some videos I have watched lay down fabric I want to do it right the first time...
What did you decide? I’m doing the same project and trying to decide on fabric or not.
❤️❤️🙏🙏
So, clay... clay isn't topsoil. If your yard is clay, you need to slop ALL of your clay to the French drains. Cover the clay and trenches with fabric. Then gravel and pipe the trenches. THEN fabric over the French drains. THEN topsoil and seed the yard.
Clay does not absorb water but it beautifully shucks water like a metal roof if it's sloped. It will clog fabric or gravel, doesn't matter how big. Dry clay is as good as concrete for shuckin water, but it needs covered to stay dry. Topsoil doesn't clog fabric, but will clog gravel.
Do it right, or do it over and over again.
Curious but in a clay soil situation, what if you were to add a couple inches or so of class II road base to line the trench, compact it down, then lay the wrap in (and proceeding to fill with rocks + drain pipe)? The road base would act as sort of a barrier of separation to keep the clay away from the fabric.
I have never used fabric. We have heavy clay in NTX. Gravel is the key
What about under the stone? What stops the stone from sinking into the clay? I have serious clay as well. Based on these videos im thinking stone in the bottom of the trench, perf pipe without fabric, more stone on top, a woven fabric on top of stone before back filling with the clay or possibly top soil.
I watched your video and didn't put any fabric. My drainage works fine over two years now. I have clay soil.
How deep and how wide is the trench?
I personally think that people don’t understand how much this cost this is very very expensive how long you gonna live in this house I’m personally going to live here 15 more years so I think just put stone down and pipe I’m almost 60 even if you’re in your 40s if you clean it once a year you’ll probably get 2025 years out of this. I think the fabric is just a waste of money. My father had dug a trench when it lasted 20 years never cleaned. I think it depends on where are you living and what kind of soil you have I think fill it right up with rock.
Is the recommendations to also not wrap a french drain in sand?
From previous vidoes, for sandy soil such as in Florida, can use geo fabric to wrap around the gravel and french drain since it will not clog the fabric like clay soil does
Should you lay fabric down under the pipes and gravel but not roll it up? This would keep roots from growing in through the bottoms and sides or not?
Fabric does not stop roots
I saw a video where you recommend the ezflow pipe. I am a diyer and was thinking of using this system. However, I wanted to ask why is the fabric around this pipe ok but other fabrics not ok to use? I have mostly clay up here in Jersey. Thank you!
EZ Flow is self contained French Drain. The fabric holds the styrofoam around the perforated pipe
@@appledrains but wont the fabric stop the flow like it does in your clay video? or is the fabric they use different? Thank you Chuck.
I have the same exact question and think the same thing. I have mostly clay ( a little topsoil) and bought a section of EZ flow thinking it would save time and my back. But now I'm thinking it's just gonna be a pain later down the road...
The fabric around the EZ flow would be the same concept of the burrito wrap French drain. The EZ flow concept is meant to make the job easier, no gravel to haul and put in trench and no wrapping it up.
What happens if I used the EZ Flow system
That’s what I want to know Chuck. Will the fabric and composite gravel fail in clay?
Chuck. You know. C’mon man.
He always responds, I wonder why he hasnt commented yet
Ez flow works good! In the clay, gravel is a little better. Here in Florida, EZ FLOW IS PERFECT! But sand and clay are much different
@@appledrains thank you. Loved you and your brother’s video’s on using a jet for a shallow well. Both outstanding
👍🏻👍🏻
That doesn’t look like geotextile fabric.
was that weedmat used?
I’ve seen you wrap fabric. I don’t understand…
Maybe just the wrong fabric used.
Maybe???
Can I use pea gravel for my french drain?
no, too fine
That fabric is woven.
It is best to use fabric, but unwoven fabric, the fabric stops the soil getting into the stones / gravel.
Unwoven fabric allows water to poass through it through osmosis.
The black fabric there is plastic & woven and will not let water through, you could almost use that fabric as a tent.
Unwoven fabric "TERRAM" is what to use especially in clay sandy soils to stop silt build up.
I paid a fortune for that fabric, it worked great for a year or two, then was right back at step one. I personally wouldn't spend the money for the fabric.
I watched my dad put in lines without fabric many times. We are in Ohio. Land of the clay. He never had a problem.
I have a negative grade issue at my house that's challenging. I can't raise the soil because the finished grade is right at the top of foundation. So, I'll have to excavate a slope and put in a line with catch basins. I'm not using fabric.
Thats a "woven" fabric. Wrong fabric to begin with,
It's got to be the right kind of fabric. Not the fabric you showed.
Tyvek house wrap has the same effect! Dont wrap your buildings with it.
??