The problem with that is that Smash 4 doubles was already over for 2 days when the head TO found out about it, so he couldn't have physically dqed ouch from smash 4 doubles since it was done. However, I agree that the actions the head TO took was too extreme imo especially him dqing RiskTKR who literally did nothing wrong.
Well, he was cheating in a tournament where money is involved, I think the TOs really wanted to leave a mark here for any similar situation in the future
TL,DR- DQing Ouch in Wii U dubs was the exact thing that was stated in the rules to happen. While the decision to DQ him from Ult singles was more of an interpretation of the rules, I personally agree with the call. Also, I don't think Ouch intended/realized he was doing something wrong. The rules are very clear that alting gets you dqed unless you notify the TOs before registration ends. (3.15 in the Supernova rules.) Whether or not you agree with the principle of the rule is one thing, but it was set before the event began. If you're gonna compete in an event, you compete under that event's rules, and if you don't, you can't compete. The team Ouch subbed into, because Ouch was playing under a tag that isn't his, broke the rules and was DQed according to those rules. For Wii U doubles, it's as simple as that. However, it's worth noting that the alting rule states that the alting individual gets DQed from "the *tournament*"- not the bracket or event. If it was "the bracket," it would clearly mean just WII U doubles, and if it was "the event," it would clearly mean disqualification from all brackets (AKA Ult singles too), but (at least how I read it) "the tournament" could be interpreted in either of these ways. While it's the job of a TO to apply the rules appropriately, I can absolutely see how the Ouch!? DQ in Ultimate singles can be seen as not being objective. (Everything above Even if it wasn't clear whether or not DQing Ouch from Ultimate singles was how the rule was intended to work, I still think it was the right call. Alting isn't fair to players that have earned their seed or have spent time preparing to play against someone, only for the person they think they're playing to be someone else entirely. Regardless of the size or perceived significance of the Wii U doubles bracket, at the end of day there was a monetary prize at play. Alting is deception; you're "disguised" as someone else. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure if you gain monetarily from deception (which Ouch!?'s team would've done since they got fourth,) that could be considered fraud. I think these reasons are worthy of a DQ from all brackets. I want to be very clear, I don't think Ouch!? (or anyone else here) sought to con anyone or gain an upper hand by having Ouch play instead of (the person Ouch subbed for, idk which of the two it was.) I am 100% sure someone couldn't show up and TemporaryPlan/VaLoR (again, idk which,) still wanting to play and not knowing the substitution would be alting (thus against the rules), asked Ouch, and Ouch, not knowing the same thing, was just down to join. That said, just because it wasn't intentional doesn't mean it didn't happen. I agree that it really sucks Ouch couldn't play. I love watching him, and he could've done well. But being good at the game doesn't affect whether or not he should've been DQed. Why did I write all this ;-;
Surely “the tournament” cannot be interpreted to mean all tournaments that fall under the event? I think if they had it dubbed as DQ’d from the event, it’d be pretty objective. Ultimately, it’s their event they can do what they like.
Love the recap video, would love to see more of these for future tournaments, a great quick watch for people who didn’t get the chance to watch the tournament live :)
when sonix was vs raon(the japanese luigi), and raon's controller dc, the way that raon was really seems painfull for him, and when sonix just didn't wanted the free stock it really was a wholesome moment, sonix is the goat (sry for broken english lmao)
Onex should’ve taken that early BO3 set over Muteace. Would’ve been one of the most epic upsets and comebacks of the entire year, let alone the tournament. I want to point out a few humorous notes from other games that weren’t covered in most of the vids that discuss this event: MKLeo was entered in the Melee bracket and was seeded to fight against Delaware Ult player McDann, but both of them DQd from Melee round 1. I’m not sure exactly why Leo left it, but McDann just straight up ran late and missed the match. The smash 64 round Robin part of the bracket had several dozen players just not show up for whatever reason, meaning some players in the 64 bracket ended set-positive for the tournament even if they only won 1 actual set. The brawl singles bracket, despite having the lowest number of entrants relative to all the smash games, had plenty of Meta Knight players throughout most of the top bracket, until grand finals suddenly had a Toon Link vs Ice Climbers match. Part of me somewhat hopes that this will lead to people suddenly thinking Toon Link is top level viable in Brawl and the scene will experiment with other mid tiers.
Caught some of this through your streams earlier but I appreciate your round-up here. Been out of the Smash comp scene for a while but it seems like it has been pretty hype! Watching melee DK is a treat haha
I did not think the spargo Roy would be really good but it was I’m surprised Sonix lost to it usually he would beat most Roy’s but that one is very different.
The ouch stuff needs more context. Did he talk with the person with the tag he was playing under? Did he reinburse them? If both of those are yes, then it was absolutely too far.
Isn't is specifically stated in most tourney rules that someone can not play for you in your place. The original player would've been dq'd and it would've sucked for his teammate but if you could just add anyone to any player spot, it would then make it unfair. Imagine thinking your going against x and y and yet Capital D shows up to whoops ass. It seems like a appropriate decision to me. It sucks but rules are rules. Now I could be wrong and willing to admit but until then I think the dq was the right move
The TO ruling for Ouch was fine. This is a Huge Major and something had to be done for playing under someone else’s tag. So, a single game lose is fine. Maybe at the time, the TO found out, Smash 4 doubles bracket was over, and it was too late to change the bracket (especially with pools being ran in paper.) Like it could’ve been worse like being eliminated from the entire bracket. A single loss is the best Is there an official policy on this? like with what MTG does. Edit: your Skill =\= avoiding punishment. Doesn’t matter if you are Best in the World. An action must be taken, or else why even follow the rules of a tournament in the first place.
Even though what happened to Ouch! is bad, people should be talking about what happened to RiskTKR. Risk is the person who’s tag was used by ouch and even though it wasn’t his fault , risk ended up getting DQed from ultimate singles well on the best run of his life
Dqing ouch from ultimate is a bit much but justifyable in a vacuum. Some people are claiming he was told by a TO that he could do it without issue, and in that case he deserves a full refund at the very minimum
My thought process for Ouch?! Is: what if it had been a much less popular player? Either another top player who often gets hated on, or simply not a top player. Would people be as up in arms as they are now? I don't think so. Now don't get me wrong, I love seeing Ouch?! play and seeing them getting dq'd was heart wrenching, but rules are in place for a reason. Subbing for someone else is deceptive and profoundly messes up the seeding, it's just plain unfair, and even though it turns out to be true that a TO told Ouch it was ok, they should have used their better judgement to know a single TO can't make a call on the fly to change one of the set and written rules of the tournament. Overall, it sucks, sure, but I think that call was fair. If they had let it slip in fear of the backlash it may cause, it would have set a very dangerous precedent for other people to abuse. We don't need more top players thinking rules don't apply to them.
Is people subbing a big enough issue to ruin a person's run? I don't think so at least. I don't see it as a dangerous precedent at all particularly because he had TO permission. Punish the TO, not the player following what the TO said.
5:53 Actually, as has been tested by PKBeats video on Mr. Game and Watch's judge, the 50% (technically 56%) chance of getting a 9 on the last 5 seconds only applies if the MG&W has half or less the amount of stocks as the opponent, with one stock each, this 50% chance is non-existent. Sonic only had a 1/9 chance of losing.
Larry wasn't talking about that though, just that he got hit 3 times. And that would be 1/9, into 1/8, into 1/8 at least. Maybe all of them were 1/8, gotta check the match. It's 1/8 because Miya was using it a lot and the numbers do not repeat, so each subsequent hammer had a 1/8 chance of hitting a 9, not 1/9, and that would make the odd of hitting a 9 at least once 36.111% (if 1/9, 1/8, 1/8) or 37.5% (all 1/8). Not like trying 56% 3x but a decent chance, close to 40% with 3 hits. Nice learning about what you said though, it was new to me!
TOs and their excessive power tripping? Who would have guessed? One of my biggest issues with this scene is how unprofessional so many lead people are. Couldn't stand some of the tournaments I attended cuz of smart alec TOs being jerks.
I say this as a huge Ouch fan, I agree with the DQing, if he's willing to break the rules he should be penalized, DQing him from a bracket he clearly doesn't care about isn't a penalty, it would be a joke. DQing him from his main bracket where he actually cares is an actual punishment that will make him and other competitors twice before breaking rules for goofs and gaffs, imagine all the time and effort it takes to organize an event that size for some players to not care about it and do whatever they want.
DQ-ing him was fine, imo. They didnt take away his chances of going on a run, he did. Get caught cheating in any bracket and get DQ'ed in every bracket. Totally fair. Its so easy to just be chill and follow the rules.
I think becoming a TO must give you like a unique form of psychosis where you need to power trip to make the voices go away. Why don't these guys have a soul?
Ness winning a smash 4 super major is underrated
so happy it wasn't a Cloud or a Bayo
Ouch drama was bs, he was cooking
the TO took it too far with Ouch, he should have been DQ'd from the Smash 4 doubles bracket only, not from Ult
The problem with that is that Smash 4 doubles was already over for 2 days when the head TO found out about it, so he couldn't have physically dqed ouch from smash 4 doubles since it was done. However, I agree that the actions the head TO took was too extreme imo especially him dqing RiskTKR who literally did nothing wrong.
Well, he was cheating in a tournament where money is involved, I think the TOs really wanted to leave a mark here for any similar situation in the future
@@ashtrayheart__ he broke a rule but it doesn't have any effect on gameplay so I don't think cheating is the best word to use
@@ashtrayheart__id agree with this if ouch didn’t already have approval from another TO
I don’t think you could make this any more concise. Someone hire this man
To do what? Lol
SuperNova so good that Larry had to make a whole video about it
From what i understand, ouch got permission from one of the volunteers, and only played in the doubles because of that.
interesting if true
Apparently Ouch was told it would be OK for him to play in both. They should give him free entry next year
would be nice to have verification
Ouch!?'s punishment was way overdone
Politics a harsh mistress.
The moment that Sparg0 pulled out the Roy was so unexpected and exciting ... Sonix has been labbing against Roy recently as well.
So no one can say he wasn't unprepared like they tend to do
TL,DR- DQing Ouch in Wii U dubs was the exact thing that was stated in the rules to happen. While the decision to DQ him from Ult singles was more of an interpretation of the rules, I personally agree with the call. Also, I don't think Ouch intended/realized he was doing something wrong.
The rules are very clear that alting gets you dqed unless you notify the TOs before registration ends. (3.15 in the Supernova rules.) Whether or not you agree with the principle of the rule is one thing, but it was set before the event began. If you're gonna compete in an event, you compete under that event's rules, and if you don't, you can't compete. The team Ouch subbed into, because Ouch was playing under a tag that isn't his, broke the rules and was DQed according to those rules. For Wii U doubles, it's as simple as that.
However, it's worth noting that the alting rule states that the alting individual gets DQed from "the *tournament*"- not the bracket or event. If it was "the bracket," it would clearly mean just WII U doubles, and if it was "the event," it would clearly mean disqualification from all brackets (AKA Ult singles too), but (at least how I read it) "the tournament" could be interpreted in either of these ways. While it's the job of a TO to apply the rules appropriately, I can absolutely see how the Ouch!? DQ in Ultimate singles can be seen as not being objective.
(Everything above
Even if it wasn't clear whether or not DQing Ouch from Ultimate singles was how the rule was intended to work, I still think it was the right call. Alting isn't fair to players that have earned their seed or have spent time preparing to play against someone, only for the person they think they're playing to be someone else entirely. Regardless of the size or perceived significance of the Wii U doubles bracket, at the end of day there was a monetary prize at play. Alting is deception; you're "disguised" as someone else. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure if you gain monetarily from deception (which Ouch!?'s team would've done since they got fourth,) that could be considered fraud. I think these reasons are worthy of a DQ from all brackets.
I want to be very clear, I don't think Ouch!? (or anyone else here) sought to con anyone or gain an upper hand by having Ouch play instead of (the person Ouch subbed for, idk which of the two it was.) I am 100% sure someone couldn't show up and TemporaryPlan/VaLoR (again, idk which,) still wanting to play and not knowing the substitution would be alting (thus against the rules), asked Ouch, and Ouch, not knowing the same thing, was just down to join. That said, just because it wasn't intentional doesn't mean it didn't happen. I agree that it really sucks Ouch couldn't play. I love watching him, and he could've done well. But being good at the game doesn't affect whether or not he should've been DQed.
Why did I write all this ;-;
Surely “the tournament” cannot be interpreted to mean all tournaments that fall under the event? I think if they had it dubbed as DQ’d from the event, it’d be pretty objective. Ultimately, it’s their event they can do what they like.
The dk renaissance is the most interesting thing to happen in melee for years, exciting to see a meta shift this far into the games lifespan
TO: Suddenly DQs Ouch!? from all events.
Ouch!?: Ouch!?
Love the recap video, would love to see more of these for future tournaments, a great quick watch for people who didn’t get the chance to watch the tournament live :)
Ouch situation is BS imo. Yeah he messed up but DQing him for a different game with a separate bracket is not it
when sonix was vs raon(the japanese luigi), and raon's controller dc, the way that raon was really seems painfull for him, and when sonix just didn't wanted the free stock it really was a wholesome moment, sonix is the goat (sry for broken english lmao)
The Luigi’s tag is Raru
Ouch drama was too much and honestly they should’ve just made him pay money for the doubles instead of just outright DQ’ing the man
He was chill
this was a great video Larry!
Onex should’ve taken that early BO3 set over Muteace. Would’ve been one of the most epic upsets and comebacks of the entire year, let alone the tournament. I want to point out a few humorous notes from other games that weren’t covered in most of the vids that discuss this event:
MKLeo was entered in the Melee bracket and was seeded to fight against Delaware Ult player McDann, but both of them DQd from Melee round 1. I’m not sure exactly why Leo left it, but McDann just straight up ran late and missed the match.
The smash 64 round Robin part of the bracket had several dozen players just not show up for whatever reason, meaning some players in the 64 bracket ended set-positive for the tournament even if they only won 1 actual set.
The brawl singles bracket, despite having the lowest number of entrants relative to all the smash games, had plenty of Meta Knight players throughout most of the top bracket, until grand finals suddenly had a Toon Link vs Ice Climbers match. Part of me somewhat hopes that this will lead to people suddenly thinking Toon Link is top level viable in Brawl and the scene will experiment with other mid tiers.
Caught some of this through your streams earlier but I appreciate your round-up here. Been out of the Smash comp scene for a while but it seems like it has been pretty hype! Watching melee DK is a treat haha
5:19 Shoutouts to everyone who watched this live, iykyk 💀
I was sitting in the rest area hearing the chants across the convention center
Sparg0 at his peak is the best player in the world
None of you watched the video yet
I did not think the spargo Roy would be really good but it was I’m surprised Sonix lost to it usually he would beat most Roy’s but that one is very different.
The ouch stuff needs more context. Did he talk with the person with the tag he was playing under? Did he reinburse them? If both of those are yes, then it was absolutely too far.
Isn't is specifically stated in most tourney rules that someone can not play for you in your place. The original player would've been dq'd and it would've sucked for his teammate but if you could just add anyone to any player spot, it would then make it unfair. Imagine thinking your going against x and y and yet Capital D shows up to whoops ass. It seems like a appropriate decision to me. It sucks but rules are rules.
Now I could be wrong and willing to admit but until then I think the dq was the right move
i love ouch but i appreciate the commitment. top player privilege is real and its important to be professional when running an event that big
I wish we got to see how far Ouch couldve gone but i guess we'll never know maybe in an alternate timeline he makes top 8
The TO ruling for Ouch was fine. This is a Huge Major and something had to be done for playing under someone else’s tag. So, a single game lose is fine. Maybe at the time, the TO found out, Smash 4 doubles bracket was over, and it was too late to change the bracket (especially with pools being ran in paper.)
Like it could’ve been worse like being eliminated from the entire bracket.
A single loss is the best Is there an official policy on this? like with what MTG does.
Edit: your Skill =\= avoiding punishment. Doesn’t matter if you are Best in the World. An action must be taken, or else why even follow the rules of a tournament in the first place.
I didn't catch the Sonix/Miya set, crazy that there's a world where Miya gets the most clutch 9 of all time
Ain't no way they shoulda DQ'd ouch from the singles, just DQ him from the Wii U game wtf
Even though what happened to Ouch! is bad, people should be talking about what happened to RiskTKR. Risk is the person who’s tag was used by ouch and even though it wasn’t his fault , risk ended up getting DQed from ultimate singles well on the best run of his life
Im so upset for Ouch, he was doing so well man
Dqing ouch from ultimate is a bit much but justifyable in a vacuum. Some people are claiming he was told by a TO that he could do it without issue, and in that case he deserves a full refund at the very minimum
Larry 🐐
Great recap!
Remember when people said Olimar auto-loses to Steve? Or how Roy was useless against Sonic?
Im glad RiskTKR got paid from this hopefully ouch does as well
I don't see the upside to DQing Ouch.
The Junebug run is legendary!
Kirby is my favorite Super Smash Brothers character!
larry this is a really good video lol
My thought process for Ouch?! Is: what if it had been a much less popular player? Either another top player who often gets hated on, or simply not a top player. Would people be as up in arms as they are now? I don't think so.
Now don't get me wrong, I love seeing Ouch?! play and seeing them getting dq'd was heart wrenching, but rules are in place for a reason. Subbing for someone else is deceptive and profoundly messes up the seeding, it's just plain unfair, and even though it turns out to be true that a TO told Ouch it was ok, they should have used their better judgement to know a single TO can't make a call on the fly to change one of the set and written rules of the tournament.
Overall, it sucks, sure, but I think that call was fair. If they had let it slip in fear of the backlash it may cause, it would have set a very dangerous precedent for other people to abuse. We don't need more top players thinking rules don't apply to them.
Is people subbing a big enough issue to ruin a person's run? I don't think so at least. I don't see it as a dangerous precedent at all particularly because he had TO permission. Punish the TO, not the player following what the TO said.
5:53 Actually, as has been tested by PKBeats video on Mr. Game and Watch's judge, the 50% (technically 56%) chance of getting a 9 on the last 5 seconds only applies if the MG&W has half or less the amount of stocks as the opponent, with one stock each, this 50% chance is non-existent. Sonic only had a 1/9 chance of losing.
Larry wasn't talking about that though, just that he got hit 3 times. And that would be 1/9, into 1/8, into 1/8 at least. Maybe all of them were 1/8, gotta check the match. It's 1/8 because Miya was using it a lot and the numbers do not repeat, so each subsequent hammer had a 1/8 chance of hitting a 9, not 1/9, and that would make the odd of hitting a 9 at least once 36.111% (if 1/9, 1/8, 1/8) or 37.5% (all 1/8). Not like trying 56% 3x but a decent chance, close to 40% with 3 hits. Nice learning about what you said though, it was new to me!
ROY’S OUR BOY 🙏🙏
Ouch getting dqd for that reason is crazy
TOs and their excessive power tripping? Who would have guessed? One of my biggest issues with this scene is how unprofessional so many lead people are. Couldn't stand some of the tournaments I attended cuz of smart alec TOs being jerks.
I say this as a huge Ouch fan, I agree with the DQing, if he's willing to break the rules he should be penalized, DQing him from a bracket he clearly doesn't care about isn't a penalty, it would be a joke.
DQing him from his main bracket where he actually cares is an actual punishment that will make him and other competitors twice before breaking rules for goofs and gaffs, imagine all the time and effort it takes to organize an event that size for some players to not care about it and do whatever they want.
Can Donkey Kong win a major?
Let’s go Larry
Turn the background music down bro bro
DQ-ing him was fine, imo. They didnt take away his chances of going on a run, he did. Get caught cheating in any bracket and get DQ'ed in every bracket. Totally fair. Its so easy to just be chill and follow the rules.
I think becoming a TO must give you like a unique form of psychosis where you need to power trip to make the voices go away. Why don't these guys have a soul?
Does Larry even READ CZcams comments smh my head