The Future of Ward! | Magic: The Gathering Outlaws of Thunder Junction MTG
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- čas přidán 23. 04. 2024
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Ward is a fairly new mechanic - how do we think it's doing? What might we change in the future? I fill you in!
Have a question? Post a comment! You can also catch me, Gavin Verhey, on the rest of the internet at:
Twitch: / gavinverhey
Twitter: / gavinverhey
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TikTok: / gavinverhey
Thumbnail art is Voja, Jaws of the Conclave from Murders at Karlov Manor, by Valera Lutfullina.
#magicthegathering #design #mtgthunder - Hry
The biggest problem with big ward is that it encourages playing board wipes over spot removal
I've legit just swapped out all my spot removal for board wipes because of that. People hate 6+ field wipes but it's what you need to deal with everything having ward now
Especially when things like the new Gisa that has Ward 2 and Pay 2 life that's just annoying, I'd rather just see something with hexproof at that point.
I mean that's the issue we had back when a ton of stuff was getting printed with hexproof, and before that shroud (as explainedin the video).
I would take ward over Hexproof or shroud.
@@benvictim I think the thing that makes Ward worse than those is the fact that Ward is costed so much less than Hexproof or Shroud usually were.
Is that a bad thing?
When you talked about the deceptive costs example of Ward 3, I took a moment to think about it and equated it in my head as your opponent always having a Mana Leak in hand, and I vaguely remember reading somewhere that you felt Mana Leak was too strong of a counterspell to print regularly anymore, which helped me put it all in perspective
That and the real-game cost of a 2 mana vs 5 mana spell is massive. In a game where 4 generic mana gets you the One Ring, adding +3 to a mana cost is huge.
Even worse, because if your opponent has mana leak, you can play around it by leaving 3 mana open, and you usually dont have to pay. With ward you always have to pay.
Mana leak felt good in limited but always felt like crap in standard. Your have to play against agro for it to be good which isn't a guarantee
It’s almost more of a nether void than anything.
The problem with mana leak is that at a cost of 1U it's very splashable and just shows up everywhere and gatekeeps what's playable. The problem is not that it protects your big 5 mana creature.
I think my biggest issue with Ward is that it seems like it isn't considered in any way when looking at a card's power budget.
This feels really true. It just is tagged onto cards where it's clear the team just wanted the card to be pushed. Obnoxious.
Yes.
It's really more that the power "budget" for creatures--especially expensive creatures--has been going up over time. Because 5 + mana things need to do a LOT to be worth the risk of dying to a 2 mana thing.
Edit: Like, OTJ has a 6/5 Trample Flash for 4 mana... And it's only even being considered for play because it has an ability that it can use from the graveyard.
@@someguy1ification Rattlewurm and its kin are the result of the "threats vs answers arms race" that started around Kaladesh.
WotC first printed absurd creatures, PWs and Vehicles, then printed a bunch of removal to keep those threats in check.
Now we are flushed with good removal and creatures need either protection or dumb statlines to see any play.
The same thing happened to hexproof back in M12/Innistrad.
They just replaced "Shroud" with "Hexproof" on all the new cards, not realizing how strong it was going to be with auras and equipments (Invisible Stalker, St Traft,...).
an interesting ward-adjacent mechanic would be a Trinisphere type effect, where any spell that targets the creature has to be scaled up in mana cost.
Thats an awesome idea, so inefficent removal isn't punished, love the idea!
That's so brilliant. At density, it'd even make more expensive removal with value stapled on top even better, encouraging those cards to actually see play. Templating would be a nightmare but once figured out would rule.
Even better, they should print more trinispheres
I've thought this before, but haven't thought of a way to word it...
It didn't occur to me to just reuse trinispheres text exactly
You almost want to word it "hexproof from mana values 3 or less." How to do it ward style...
A fun idea I had was ward but as a drawback that makes your card a lightning rod. Like Ward--Draw a card or something silly like that
that is a great idea
That’s actually pretty cool, or maybe cards that give OTHER people’s creatures these “negative” ward effects.
So like the Flagbearer creatures from Apocalypse.
"As long as you have one in play, any spell or ability your opponent plays that can target a Flagbearer must target a Flagbearer"
Ward - put a -1 / -1 counter on a creature you control
Thought the smae thing. Maybe the card have an "upside ward" but a downside effect. Like "Ward - Draw a card" and some good "when this dies" effect like "each oponent reveal it's hand and loes life equal to the highest mana value" or something
Introducing: Megaward 😎
That's just hexproof
@@notapplicable6985 nope. Look at the new Gisa. Now you have to sacrifice a creature AND pay mana to target it. Sure there are some cards that have one, or the other, but I'm pretty sure she was the first one to have both 🤓🤓
Shroud
@@toxic_gaming8580 Nah if you read the card you pay life not sac a creature.
When a spell or ability targeting this creature resolves, put a +1/+1 counter in this creature.
😂
I really appreciate the use of Ward to evoke a story. Sauron the Dark Lord having Ward: Sacrifice a legendary artifact or creature is such a flavor and rules win. I could definitely see this as a nice way to denote key weaknesses of characters and things going forward.
I think its a flavor win too but i have never seen someone remove sauron in a game of commander that cost is a bit crazy for most games.
It is good flavour, but in Commander it also is kinda silly. If you sacrifice a legend to kill specifically Sauron... And then he's just back again next turn... That big weakness is suddenly not a weakness.
@@lostalone9320 Tbh, that is even more flavorful.
Shoutout to octavia, living thesis for having not-hexproof but really just hexproof.
Hexproof from cards that aren't Void Rend.
Funfact: Octavia has the number "8" exactly 8 times on the card.
Honestly surprised it wasn't used as an example here. Its a pretty great example of the "ward 4+" problem and where it should be used. Its very flavorful on Octavia, and while she can be cast pretty cheaply - she's a 10 mana wincon that does need protection to actually win the game.
But octavoa would still be fine if she had hexproof.
Voja, on the other hand...
@@ProtomanBlues87you mean it's really there nine times? 😉
I am looking forward to more experimental ward costs like ward, it's owner draws cards, owner gains life, Mill, etc would be really interesting to see
Id really like that. Or bouncing a target non-land permanent or something. I think there are a lot of fun design spaces/possibilities.
Super good idea. For a red player, a "Ward - The creature's controller gains 2 life" would really make them consider how to deploy their burn.
I bet the only reason they haven't done that is because ward is a cost. You can't make an opponent draw or gain life as a cost. The Cactarantula from the newest set basically has ward - "catarantula's controller draws a card".
@@ender_lord1202 Why can you not make an opponent draw or gain life as a cost? I play Invigorate in one of my decks, and if you control a forest you can forgo paying for the spell and instead have an opponent gain 3 life.
@@ender_lord1202Sauron says “ward- sacrifice legendary creature” so any ward is possible
Voja should have had "first turn hexproof". If you just want to guarantee value, like an attack step trigger, happening at least 1 time, it doesn't strictly need ward. Or "If you cast card name, it has ward 3 this turn."
Quite like zurgo and ojutai, that seems cool ngl
Also works around vein ripper situations, where the ward that is extremely costly could be guaranteed on extremely expensive creatures by cheating it on to play
I really like the "hexproof until it attacks" mechanic, it kinda acts like how haste plays so I don't think there would be any memory issues with it either.
@@nobelphoenix I personally would love to see hexproof untapped, other value tapped, like saryth.
Personally i just want more untap outlets lmao, i need more tap dancer enablers
Shouldnt have any protection. The card is overloaded with abilities and didnt need it at all.
Its played with lots of mana creatures, so if Voja dies as a Commander you simply cast it again.
Its the kind of card that snowballs too hard if it ever connects and any form of protection just makes it miserable to play against, as what all the Ward abilities actually do is to promote mass removal for opponents, so you dont have to care about targeting.
@@ThisNameIsBannedWhile I agree that Voja is far too much value for a static ward ability, its actual playability would crater without any kind of protection. Even with heavy, unanswered ramp it’s no earlier than a turn 3 play, and it offers no value for an entire turn rotation. I’ve only been playing for a few years so I appreciate pushed creature design more as an abstraction than a lived experience, but with the state of removal a 5/5 for 5 with no etb or protection is going to trade down more often than not. I say this as someone who mains Yawgmoth, so this wolf has been the bane of my existence in Brawl recently. The type of card Alchemy hotfixes were introduced for imo.
I think ward is a victim of its own success. It definitely is a better mechanic than hexproof or shroud. But hexproof and shroud weren't printed every set or even every other set. Ward is still a mechanic that demotes/punishes interaction, which arguably is the best part of the game. And when everyone is thinking about the forthcoming set, nobody is saying "I can't wait to see what version of ward we get this time."
There is nothing wrong with the mechanic, but imo it isn't ideal to be printing anti-interaction mechanics every set or maybe even every other set.
Edit: Wrote this before watching, I fully agree with Gavins conclusions on ward! I agree that non-mana ward has great design space. (Maybe I will be looking forward to seeing what version of ward we get in the future after all)
I understand your point, and feel its valid, but i think eith the sheer amount of playable removal in most formats i can see cases where it is worth it. I think it is a mindset with an attempt to balance out the set or meta of specific cards. Overall i also agree with gavin, and i do like Ward as a concept. I think select cards need to be evaluated in a power vacuum before being considered for ward though. Mirryim as an example alone is ridiculous, not only is it insanely strong without ward, giving it ward makes dealing with the threats now harder, do you remove the commander, and they get to make two new threats, or the threat that duplicated? Both are threats, and only real way to deal with it is a board wipe, which then sets up the other players to be behind and making the game go longer. This is just POV from Edh. Imagine if Sheoldred the Apocalypse had Ward 1 thatd make her quite hard to deal with, and a Miryrm type powerhouse(shes already that by itself). I feel that Ward as a keyword needs to be carefully placed moving forward? 1 isnt that big a deal if your in certain colors, 2 can be, but situational, 3? Rarely see anyone paying extra 3 to kill it, more? Lol board wipe it is. I am hoping to see some funny cards with ward in Bloomburrow though. A squirrel deflecting spells by throwing acorns for like "Ward-This creature deals 1 Damage to any target" sounds hilarious.
@@jeremiahabbott4469 I totally agree. But I do think printing ward less often would help as well.
Non-mana ward feels like a non-cost 99% of the time, though. Losing 3 life in a commander is pennies, nobody is crying over 3 life so it might as well not even be relevant. 2 or 3 mana, however, actually makes decision-making more difficult and brings up questions of timing, value, etc. I'd say that Non-mana Ward would have to also be more than just life, discard is a good one that exists, maybe sacrifice creatures/artifacts/enchantments, or bigger life values, at least 5 or more, to be worth having.
@@frankcaggiano8282 I personally don't give a rats ass about edh balance. Life also isn't the only non-mana thing that can be a cost. Discard is almost always even more punishing than mana.
Another Commander-relevant issue for Ward is that in long games with, complex board states with unfamiliar cards, *forgetting* that something has Ward means the spell gets countered. It's on the playgroup to allow takebacks here: "Oh, sorry, I forgot it had ward 2."
Ward *can* function like a gotcha, if you want to play to the letter of the law, and I'm not sure if that was an intended part of the design.
Yeah, that's my issue with ward. You either forget it exists or you just pay the extra mana and the removal goes through anyways. It ends up feeling more like an annoyance in the vein of "do you pay the 1?" than anything really interesting or dynamic. Imo, there's enough protection in most formats with equipment and auras that I don't think ward really needs to exist on creatures themselves.
Ward shouldnt use the "counter" part to begin with.
If anything it needed to be some form of additional cost to abilities and spells, so you have to pay it, or if you cant, you get a take-back by the rules.
To make it a trigger is absolutely bad design of the mechanic, as it produces exactly the problem you state, the controller of the ward ability needs to say it triggers, the opponent needs to wait for that and pay the cost, or gets a gotcha, its all bad on top of making the game slower and clunky.
Indestructible is elegant in its design as its intuitive and does exactly what people expect without any relevant rules baggage.
Ward fails on many levels as a mechanic, but at least its open to allow all kinds of costs to its trigger, so the options are open ended, but the problem of it being a trigger in the first place still stays.
@@ThisNameIsBanned Lol it being a counter trigger is fine.
No actually the counter wording is bad. If Ward said "Spells that target this creature cost 1 more" that would be WAY better to use, because it's a static effect and you can't accidentally not pay.
Making it a "counter" trigger means that you put the spell on the stack, then decide whether to pay the extra cost. Why even have that decision? Why would you make the play and not pay the cost?
Make a Legendary Creature that REALLY wants to be left alone.
With Ward, Skulk, Hexproof, Flying and Shroud.
Even if it's on silver border
Norin the VERY Wary
Make it also that can't be countered, it REALLY wants NO interaction with it ever. If it's silver border maybe even something like 'if a spell made you reveal your hand, this card can't be selected' to avoid being discarded by discard spells
Don’t forget Shadow!
0/10 Defender, cannot block.
@@groynin I think you could template it as 'If a spell or ability an opponent controls causes you to discard this card, put it into your hand instead of putting it into your graveyard.' This actually is similar to templating used by pre-existing cards like Nullhide Ferox
Even Ward 2 is probably still too strong on Voja. I am extremely sympathetic to the idea that Ward or even Hexproof should be put more liberally on creatures that have to be turned sideways to get any value at all, but Voja's attack trigger is SO powerful that it can feel like a single attack is all it needs to wipe out a player. It's like having Craterhoof Behemoth in the command zone, with Ward 3 having near the same effect as haste. I know Carnage Tyrant could put some control players into conniption fits back in the day but it wasn't as if a single swing of that death lizard finished a game.
Voja is still a strong card without ward. Voja should simply not have been given ward. What is the lore behind why a flipping wolf has protection lol
@@brianpenner9286correct. The fact is that players playing kill on sight cards should be aware they are kill on sight and take the risk when they cast it without protection. I have a Kaalia deck, and I know if I cast her without swiftfoot boots or something similar there is a very good chance she’ll be dead before my next turn. Cards like Voja and Miirym don’t need to worry about that because their ward cost makes it likely no one will be able to interact with them if they didn’t counter the spell to begin with.
Same thing with Tivit. If a commander can potentially win after one attack it shouldn't have ward. And Tivit doesnt even have to wait until combat to get his value
I loved his awareness in the video: “ward 3 was *at least* 1 too high” 😆
Given the sheer amount of extremely powerrful abilities it has it should not have ward period. It is more then good enough without ward.
Yes. It’s resulting in heavy power creep of targeting removal options to keep up completely warping the metagame around it.
Inspired by the mention of paying ward twice to cast 2 shocks, it would be interesting to see how a ward type counter would work. Where any player can pay an amount of mana equal to the number of ward counters on a permanent to remove those counters. In the example below I've called it immunity.
"Immunity 2 (This card enters the battlefield with 2 immunity counters on it. Any player may pay 2 mana to remove these counters. Permanents with Immunity cannot be the target of spells or abilities.)"
The card Nullhide Ferox is basically what you're thinking of.
If proliferate did not exist, I would be with you on this one 👍
@@rameybartels6291 yeah good point I didn't think about proliferate!
As a Commander player, one thing I've noticed about the Oprah Winfrey mechanic (You get Ward 2! And you get Ward 2!), is that because of how hard it is to keep track of board states, people leave up mana for interaction but they forget about Ward costs, so it feels like Ward 2+ tends to overperform (and also why the non-mana Ward payments often feel more fair / attainable). I often forget about my own creatures' Ward abilities . . .
A player not reading something ward X is the same as not reading something has indestructible or hexproof. The idea is the same, you weren’t paying attention or you didn’t read. That has nothing to do with card design. It’s more the nature of commander and magic that there’s so much happening on 2 times the number of player’s boards. Unlike the infamous Dryad Arbor being mixed in with the lands and blocking play, it’s more about being aware rather than the card’s clarity.
@@jcstaff1007 It's not the same. The difference is that if something has hexproof and a player tries to target it, it's an illegal play. In casual games that can be a takesies-backsies moment, or in official competitive play, a Gameplay Error that backs the game up to a legal state (basically an official takesies-backsies moment, but with a warning).
Ward, on the other hand, ALLOWS for you to target a thing. It simply has a caveat included in the rules text that says if you don't pay the Ward cost, your spell/ability is countered. So if you miss the fact that a permanent has Ward, and you can't pay, you're out of luck.
@@jcstaff1007 Oh I agree, my point isn't about clarity - it's merely an observation of my experience on the more casual end of the spectrum where it's more about the social experience and we're not laser focused or looking to make optimal plays. I've just noticed quite a few times that someone goes to interact with something without realizing it has Ward, and then targeting something else because they don't have (or don't want to spend) the extra cost. I guess my point is that my initial assessment of Ward 2 was that it was okay as a minor deterrent but wouldn't do much to protect a high impact target, but that I've shifted my assessment to see Ward 2+ as an overperformer, especially at low powered / more casual tables
@@admanios In casual commander, I just warn the person when they target something I own with ward that the permanent has ward (allowing them to roll back the move). I don't want to beat people because of an oversight in game design
Worse, it just slows down gameplay. Hexproof is binary. Ward isn't. So when someone plans out their turn and forgets a ward cost, it just means another minute of counting.
The best Wards are ones that have unique payments like Vein Ripper or Graveyard Trespasser since they are still a cost that must be answered but 1.Doesn't negate the use of target removal 2. Plays into the game plan of the card, Ward 2-3 just leads to an over abundance of boardwipes since if I'm paying 5 to Terror your Voja, I might has well just drop a Damnation for 4
I don't fully agree with this. Having to pay life is fine, but having to discard a card or sacrifice a legendary permanent, for example, feel incredibly punishing in multiplayer formats.
@@Nr4747and some decks dont even have legendary permanents, so its effectively hexproof that counters certain archetypes
One thing that could be tried is 'Ward-Each player except this permanent's controller loses 5 life'
Or something like that, which as convoluted as the wording is, would mean answering it puts its controller ahead rather than putting the remover behind
i would add: flavour. also, friendly reminder that mtg is not just commander.
I assume you're analyzing this strictly from an EDH perspective because those two examples are *extremely* strong in 1v1 lol, one being in contention for an upcoming B&R. Effects like this drive horrible, swingy, bomb-focused Limited gameplay and are always one synergy away from doing something busted in 1v1.
I feel like ward doesn't really need to exist. Tacking protection onto a strong creature via an aura or equipment is already incredibly well balanced and something you have to consider in deck construction. Swiftfoot Boots is one of my favourite cards of all time for this reason. It grants protection, requires you to think ahead a little bit when it comes to playing equipment or protecting it, and makes the protection for your creature interactable in many different ways. You can blow up the boots, bounce them, unequip them, steal them, ect. I feel like having to do something like that to get around protection feels more dynamic than just paying an inflated cost for removal.
Agreed, it should be reserved for creatures where it's most of what they do. If something does get built in ward or hexproof that ability should be a lot of what the card brings to the table. Slippery Bogle is a good example. 1/1 with hexproof for 1. Great little card, but not too impactful unless the player is spending other cards to build around it to do specific things like mutate or receive auras.
Or a 6 mana creature that's a 6/6 with ward(3) and no other abilities is also good. It's a threat that's hard to get rid out outside of combat but its not some colossal value engine like Voja is.
Shoutout to Arcane Lighthouse, if only you were around for ward as well.
I don't always play burn in commander, but when I do I give my spells a vantage point.
The problem with wards like voja is that it is such a strong effect on attack that it should be on the onus of the controller to protect it. But instead with ward the onus/cost on the opponent removing it is even higher.
Instead of it being a build around commander it’s just all upside
This 👏
Ward on Voja was a mistake. They should recall that card lol
@@zztzgza They can't recall it, it'll cost them 3 extra mana to do and WOTC are cutting costs right now.
That's my biggest problem with ward overall. It feels so hand holdy to hear that the designers feel like I can't be trusted to include protection in a deck centered around a strong permanent that's bound to be a removal target. If anyone seriously wants to remove your creature, they'll do so with or without ward in the way. And if you're serious about protecting that creature, you'll give it hexproof or shroud anyways. So why does ward even exist? It feels like more of an annoyance than anything that meaningfully affects gameplay.
IMO it’s not the Ward that’s a problem with Voja.
It’s that Voja is an Omniboost and puts X counters on all your creatures when it should have been distribute X counters so you either go wide or go tall, not both.
Ok but counterpoint: Ward as a mechanical theme for armadillos (as it is in Thunder Junction) is super cute and should be the exception to the rules you stated in this video because to heck with the consequences armadillos are baller
And when something like ward is showing up on an entire theme rather than occasional cards, it becomes much easier to design around. If your limited format has a ward archetype, you can include removal that's particularly good against ward, such as non-targeting effects, and players will be able to include that removal in their decks quite easily, knowing it'll often be relevant.
@@yurisei6732they literally just did this with Murders at Karlov Manor. All the face down cards had ward 2, and several of the cheap removal spells had "this spell can't be countered" to get through it.
Ain't taking anything away from those cuties, armadillos are SAFE 😌
Armadillos are baller. Hahaha I see what ya did there
@@yurisei6732 It also creates a mechanical identity for a tribe which can then encourage brewing decisions and create shorthands to avoid the "That has reach?!" problem.
My gripe with ward is your opponent can wait for you to pay the ward cost, and then negate your spell anyways with protection or counters. Leaves a huge feel bad moment.
I think Ward could be something you earn and try to keep. Like it comes online if you have a certain amount of cards in hand, artifacts you control, cards in your graveyard, etc. This way, there’s an alternate method to turn it off (Discard, artifact destruction, Bojuka) instead of paying the cost.
Once upon a time we had this thing called regeneration - The controlling player had to PAY to turn it on. Like "1G - Regenerate this dude".
Shout-out to Kodama of the North Tree & Giant Solifuge. Two absolute bangers
Captain Tickles!
True
I remember 🥲
Having played Dark Gruul in standard i remember it was strong. And Kodama was the top curve of my duel commander Rafiq of the many.
Lol, Ward is not the problem, the problem is giving ward to stupidly powerful creatures such as Voja or Miirym.
It's all just an excuse to power creep.
It's not really a problem, but does require the players to pay attention
@@stealingclay what do you mean by that last sentence
@jojojo9240 I'm pretty sure they mean that if you know the opponent has a creature with ward like voja, then play carefully and keep mana up so you can remove it properly. If you aren't paying attention and your opponent drops her or say something like the tarrasque you're gonna get blindsided by a big beater and then feel bad. Usually the opponent is relying on these big ward creatures and so playing around them can ruin that players strategy. Basically if you just play solitaire and then complain whsn a 20/20 voja comes at you and you didn't remove it when you had the chance, that's on you lol
@@eelehtrikidd1002Voja is male. Just FYI.
@@eelehtrikidd1002 I guess but I won't get how attention helps... Either you got the mana & interaction card to remove the creature at sorcery speed or you don't.
I think you generally have the right assessment on what each ward type is good for, but I think another part of the equation is that it sometimes feels like Ward isn’t factored into the mana cost of a card. Voja feels like it should have had Ward 2 and been 6 CMC (if it has Ward at all).
My favorite comparison is Duskana vs Voja from recent sets. Duskana is a great Commander for what she does, but when compared to Voja its a joke despite being the same exact mana cost.
I like ward because it means "can't be countered" matters vs. colours other than blue.
Re; a potential fix, maybe ward could only apply to the first time it gets targeted during a turn?
Only issue is that there aren't as many of those as you might think
Cant be countered is super niche to begin with. The fact that stuff gets shoed in to work around Ward is artificial baggage and its not intuitive either.
Karlov manner is a particularly bad example of how Ward shapes how they design cards, as WAY too many cards had a tagged on "cant be countered" just because so many cards had ward in the set, that wasnt smart or cool, it just felt completely unnecessary.
That pink background is filthy. Thought my phone had muck on it.
same
I like Ward. I think it toned the power level of things like Sigarda HoH, Narsest Enlightened Master, Uril and the likes. Dragonlord Ojutai's Hexproof clause was conditional, which led to an interesting gameplay. Ward makes even the ones mentioned above somewhat more interactable! I think the issue stems from tossing them on already powerhouse creatures like Miirym, Voja, Tivit, etc.
Those cards you mentioned don’t lose Hexproof because Ward exists. If anything it keeps them strong since Hexproof is a rarity keyword
Something Gavin mentioned was ward 1 or 2 to keep your big creature around at least one turn cycle so you can swing with it, which reminds me of Palladia Mors which has hexproof until the first time it deals damage. They could also introduce ward counters, with each counter being ward 1. (This is already mechanically supported since ward can stack with itself). From which point they could have something like 'This creature ETBs with 3 ward counters. At the beginning of your end step, remove a ward counter from this creature.'
@@dontstealmydiamondsv3156 But then that opens the door for incremental ward counters to the point where you cant touch it.
@@Garl_Vinland the point isn’t that they lose hexproof…it’s that it’s nice there won’t be cards like them in the future.
@@lokumo13 Except we got Sigarda Font on blessings only a year ago, and that gives every permanent hexproof and costs one mana less.
We might not be getting vanilla hexproof beaters like Slippery Boggle anymore, sure. But they're still gonna nostalgia print cards with that evergreen ability every once and a while, just as they do with Indestructible.
They're also going to reprint these cards, and if they don't, those cards will just become more and more valuable in the future.
You only have to print something once to break eternal formats
I really appreciate the transparency, so thank you!! I've been enjoying a lot of these videos talking about the concept and implementation of mechanics!
Acknowledging hiccups, faults, wins and losses help make this game a much better place! ❤😄🍻
Another card that I think demonstrates a problem with Ward is Vein Ripper (which has ward: sacrifice a creature), which is that while non-mana ward that you can always pay can be fun, non-mana ward that you sometimes can't pay does not feel fun. If your opponent untaps on turn 3, plays Sorin, and drops Vein Ripper while you don't have a creature, it feels pretty bad.
Also when do do sac you get drained.
Wedge, referring to Carnage Tyrant: "that thing is stupid"
I think there are a few fair fixes for ward.
1. Non mana ward cost. Discard a card, exile a card in graveyard, creature with ward does x damage to target player/creature, sac a creature. We still lose a resource, but it's controllable vs we get land screwed.
2. Keep ward 2, but make the stats of the creature lower. 5 power is so relevant. I rather a 3/3, ward 2, than 5/4 ward 2 and extra abilities sprinkled. Even ward 4 is fine, if it's for a 1/2 or a 1/1.
3. Make ward similar to shield counters, you get 1 time protection from a source and then no more afterwards.
It becomes really difficult to deal with ward when its always on a commander.
Your suggestions at the end sound good!
One other way is to errata "Ward" like how companion was errata'd. Instead of paying the ward cost for every targetting instance, it will now be "any player/opponent may pay the ward cost to remove ward from the creature/permanent until end of turn". So this wouldn't really change too much for 1v1 formats (except for red) but would certainly make for a more fun and interactive Commander/EDH mechanic. Perhaps this could be a new protection mechanic as well.
As a mostly limited player, Ward on common and uncommons has been a huge boon to diversify the creature base. With how limited sets have normally played out, creatures that were MV 4 or above were nearly unplayable unless they generated value entering or leaving the battlefield and/or had haste. I am really enjoying OTJ so far mostly because of how ward was implemented. With Ward, the increase in efficiency and prevalence of removal in the set does not feel overly oppressive because it mostly can only be used that efficiently against creatures that are generating value when they come into play, have haste, or are creatures that must be answered quickly or the game is over. I can tap out for my big dumb 7/7 with ward 3 that doesn't do anything ETB and not feel like having big stompy creatures in my deck was a mistake. It was a great way to pull the power in the format somewhat away from the one and two drops and give more heaft to the 4, 5, and 6 drops. I love that removal can be efficient and plentiful without completely warping the format around it and i love that MV 4+ creatures can be good again. All Hail Ward!!!
It's interesting to read this because my core group of Mtg friends feels the exact opposite and has abandoned Limited due to how bomb-focused and swingy we feel it has become. This is fine for kitchen table play because you just shuffle up and have more fun, but for competitive events it's really frustrating to deal with Ward costs like those detailed in this video as well as much of the other instant value plays as we feel it narrows the skill gap.
To be clear, I'm not saying you're wrong, we probably started the game at different times and have different goals and that's part of what makes Magic so great. I know there are people out there really enjoying the increase in splashy plays.
I think Ward 2 on that 7/7 Reach would have been just fine. It already outsizes most of the common removal spells. Adding 3 mana to the removal spells that _can_ kill it is too much in limited, especially in a set with Snakeskin Veil (few things feel worse than spending 7 mana to kill a creature, but spending 7 mana to _not_ kill a creature is one of them).
The 4-mana 4/4, Ward 2, "Give all your big creatures trample and haste" arguably could have been Ward 1, since you only need to get to your combat step before it gives you some value, but it dies to such a wider variety of removal spells that I'm OK with Ward 2.
@@frankstallone3242 That's the thing though, all the bombs are fairly vulnerable to removal. Nothing is like Avabruck Caretaker from Crimson Vow or Dream Trawler from Thereos. I've Been playing limited since Invasion and it's nice to see a format where both removal is great and relevant again after all the buffs creatures have had in the past decade.
I think a big factor is also that cards with Ward that advance the game through combat are fine because there are ways to beat them with creatures. But ones that get powerful effects without ever fighting feel impossible to slow down.
I like ward when it has a special twist : paying life, discarding, when it only have it the turn it enters etc...
Would love some more like having to tap non-lands permanents you controle, revealing cards/hand etc...
Thank you, Gavin! Puts my mind at ease knowing your stance. My 2c:
“ETB, if cast, hexproof until your next turn”
“Ward: mill X/tap X/reveal X/an opponent gets X”
“Instant - gain hexproof until end of turn. If
Thanks for the video gaving, I appreciate the honesty and openness. introspective and straight to the point.
Tivit is a prime example of "Why does he have Ward?" He is easily so pushed that I don't know how his entire text box got past testing
When I first read Tivit I was excited for a voting commander, then realized it's not about voting, it's about artifacts. The Ward 3 just means it's not something I want to build.
@artificeralf I was actually really heads up on him for once. I knew he was gonna be broken to all hell. 5 artifacts a turn is insane in a 4 player game, and you can turn it to 15 with Academy Manufactor. Plus, he goes infinite with Time Sieve like he was designed with it in mind
Creating treasure helps pay for recasting him, so even if you take a turn/most of a turn off to remove him (through the ward or a board wipe) he just gets to come down again next turn no sweat.
I like and appreciate this video. It does feel incomplete, however. There are several points that merit conversation, and for which I would love to see a follow up video!
In particular:
• The way Ward functions as a "gotcha!" mechanic, where people get punished for making mistakes in complicated situations, creates much greater moments of social discomfort and ambiguity. In prerelease settings particularly, I've received conflicting messages about "takebacks" for Ward misplays. A clearer message about takebacks would be appreciated.
• Power budget in card design. In this video, you discussed what amount of ward would be appropriate to give a card based on when it is played and what it does, but did not discuss the problem that many cards would have been very powerful with no Ward at all, but were given a Ward of 2 or 3 still.
• How did the thought take root that a hexproof-equivalent mechanic was okay to give to cards without adjusting their stats or abilities to justify the added power?
• What can you do to convince designers not to throw overpowered mechanics on cards without adjusting the card to compensate? Is there no step in the design process where someone asks "how do we reduce the power of Voja to justify making it so much harder to remove this must-remove creature, that kills opponents in a single swing?"
• When everything has ward, single target removal gets replaced with board wipes and counterspells. This exacerbates the existing design problem of the arms race between overpowered creatures and overpowered removal.
• You have said in the past that Mana Leak is too powerful to print regularly in sets. Ward 3 is literally free Mana Leak for the owner, costing neither card nor mana.
Absolutely love non-mana ward personally. It's something you could get wacky with and it would be easy to understand.
The biggest issue me and my playgroup have (Commander ofc) is the sheer amount of "what does that do again?" so ward looks good and is flexible without being confusing.
Love these videos Gavin! Many of us have been a little worried with the direction ward was taking, it helps a lot to know what’s are designer's thought on these things.
Wards that aren't related to Mana Costs are fantastic and full of flavor. Love Vein Ripper.
It’s much less fun when it’s put in turn 3 by sorin
@@yoyoguy1st turn 1... dark ritual :)
Vein Ripper basically has Hexproof, ward costs like these are stupid and don't promote fun gameplay at all
The pink background made me think I had water stains all over my screen.
Cool video, nice to hear Wizards perspective on card creation. sometimes it feels confusing but these are very enlightening.
One idea for you to consider is Commander-specific keywords. *Link*, for example, which allows other players to contribute to a spell’s casting cost at their option.
Why no wards : tap a creature, bounce an artifact?
Not every deck has an artifact. I think tapping a creature could be fine though
I thought of exactly that first one, bounce creature could work, but considering all the value ETBs, it might be more upside than cost. lol
I was hoping for an explanation on why Voja got ward 3 but the explanation is just "whoops"
What kind of explanation would you expect? It was made to be an attractive three-color commander and the ward was added so it would be likely to get an attack trigger off. He notes that Ward and especially higher numbers have been given away too liberally, and Voja was made to stand out and be powerful.
Yeah but... How did a professional design team look at yet another high profile card and just not see they had overstepped?
The attitude that casual EDH people will just make their own ban lists is really crappy.
The explanation is that they're running their design team ragged with having to design 50 products a year so they don't have time to fully play test their cards.
This video warmed my heart.
I’m so glad the devs (at least some of them) are this aware of the situation. Sounds like we are headed in the right direction!
One small request: can we bring back Shroud? Not a whole bunch, but the occasional Shroud creature would be great.
Empyrial Archangel, as an example is an amazing design. Expensive, powerful, game-changing. But, without protection she’s not worth her cost, and if it was Hexproof instead she would be ridiculous.
I would love to see more of the tech you guys used on jade orb of dragonkind, maybe there could be a keyword like “this creature can’t be targeted as long as it has summoning sickness” that way people can untap with their big fun creatures but their opponents aren’t helpless to deal with them turn after turn, thanks for the peek behind the curtain and keep up the good work Gavin :)
Bring back Shroud you cowards
Lmao xD
Why , no? Just keep it hexproof or ward. Never being shroud back.
Trespasser? is black. Raffine? is black. Sauron? Is black. Saruman? Is black. New Ghisa? Is black. Vein ripper? Is black. Other colors don´t get premium treatment like black gets since 2021 in this game and the best green ward they give to tarrasque which he can´t have it without being CAST, as a freaking 9 mana that is not a good reanimate target. You can play a standard deck with a premium black creature card from each mana cost from 1 to 6 and make it a viable deck. GIVE GOOD WARDS TO OTHER COLORS in the weakest formats
Ward that is not mana cost is the coolest version. There can also be thematic wards that really fit what the cards are trying to do. Like having a ward-discard a card on a creature that cares about opponents discarding a card.
Man I love these design insight videos, it's super easy as someone who plays the game regularly to get frustrated with individual aspects of design like the (admitted) overabundance of ward, especially in commander. It's really nice to take a step back and figure out how we got here.
It's also really encouraging to hear that you guys are not only aware of these things, but using them to decide how they should be applied in the future. I love things like hexproof and ward, like you pointed out, as long as they're used with the appropriate amount of caution and intent.
I also agree entirely, alternate cost ward is a really cool design space and "feels" a lot less bad. I personally think it also helps with the "memory problem" of ward, it's a lot harder to "Forget" Mishra's "sacrifice a permanent" ward than it is a random value piece with ward 2 on it. (I don't struggle with this one personally, but it's something I hear a lot, and has lead our play group to ask for "ward checks" to figure out if we can remove the things we want to.)
Great video, always love to get a little peak behind the curtain.
I think Ward 1 on disguise would have been more correct, or a second cycle of uncounterable spells that remove cheaper creatures would balance out the play versus draw issue that morph formats bring. You're always at a disadvantage when you have to swing and interact into open mana against disguises because it's either a combat trick or their flip and they "gain" tempo compared you to taking time to hold up spells or just trading off. I think ward was the correct move to make it more difficult to interact with, but 1 seems more limited friendly while 2 makes it more playable in constructed formats.
I love the breakdown at the end of what Ward numbers do and stipulations. I think one of the biggest ward costs that most players wouldn't pay would be "Ward-card's controller draws a card". (unless you're trying to do group hug)
Ward gives such a good way of tuning Hexproof to fit a card design more appropriately than an "all or nothing" approach. People just need to be chill.
Hard disagree. If Ward were restricted to a smaller set of cards, it would be more interesting and more flavourful.
@@lostalone9320
I'd consider that a flaw in Ward's implementation, not a flaw in the mechanic itself.
I really appreciate the breakdowns of the mechanics. I think the explanation of your philosophy moving forward is great, I'm also a big fan of non-mana Ward costs.
One side counter to Ward is Can't be Countered Spells, which allow you to bypass the cost even if you don't pay the mana. If Ward is such a problem to a person playing, it's better to throw in a one side board clear or counterspell. For me though, it's still less annoying than Hexproof, because any proper multicolored deck with green can still pay the extra if they ramp properly.
Ward? A problem?
I don’t understand how people would come to that conclusion, Ward basically just helps creatures trade more favorably with removal. It’s a genuinely great design!
If you cannot understand a subject where the video exemplifies several points where this issue is relevant. Maybe the problem is your ability to understand things.
@@Gatzvalith well no, I understand why Ward 3 and Ward 4 can be a problem. But Ward as a whole is not a problem (which is something Gavin also agrees with).
@@TrainmasterGT My friend, it is OBVIOUS that the discussion is about the overcost wards and how they were placed in places that were not necessary.
I'm even embarrassed by the argument, a similar parallel would be in a discussion about gun control, you come and say that you don't understand how people think guns are bad, that guns are only bad when fired, in other situations they are completely fine.
Yes, guns are beautiful pieces and look great on your belt, but that's not what we're talking about.
The same is said about mechanics, he even mentions in the video that the problematic applications were those with high costs
Creatures already trade favorable with removal without ward nowadays
@@2424Lars baneslayers still don’t.
I was surprised that you didn't address that ward was templated as a triggered ability instead of an additional cost. In my experience this has caused a lot of confusion and frustrating situations, especially with new players. Would love to hear discussion on why it was done in this way.
Super glad you brought up Graveyard trespasser, it's the ward cost that I've enjoyed the most because it isn't always a strict downside to pay, but in most cases it is. That's a great recipe for strategic thinking!
That last little line about exceptions being made for notable characters is something I’ve thought about a lot when it comes to the Lord of the Rings cards. Sauron, the Dark Lord’s ”Ward - Sacrifice a legendary creature or artifact” is something I see criticized a lot with the argument being ”it might as well be hexproof”
And I mean, functionally, it basically is hexproof.. but the way the ward ability is formulated is so much more evocative and flavorful, and I think that’s another part where Ward truly shines brighter than Hexproof
Thanks for the details, I appreciate the overview and future directions. I also like the non-mana ward costs, really makes opponents evaluate if removing the target is worth that cost.
Ward 2 for Disguise probably is a right decision. I think it did make the limited format feel much more fun.
But yeah, in practice, it’s almost always just a “hexproof”, since it’s rarely worth it to remove stuff before they flip. Unless it’s super endgame top decking situations.
I really like this type of feedback and design space video, especially on something the community is talking about. Thanks Gavin!
Specifically for EDH, it might be neat to see ward costs that can be payed cooperatively by any players, not just the person targeting it.
Love the video, love the discourse, all around much love to pleasant kenobi for bringing me to your channel!
Thanks for this Gavin. Really insightful video. It certainly helps to get an explicit acknowledgement that Voja and Tivit were overtuned.
I really like Ward as a mechanic overall, and I like that it can avoid needing to 'frontload' the value in a high MV creature design via a powerful etb.
The frustration as a commander player comes from wanting an environment where people interact with one another outside of slamming down farewell, and ward really punishes non-boardwipe, non-proactive game plans.
I've heard people in our playgroup talk about cutting classic commander cards like chaos warp and generous gift from there *casual* decks because 3mv + ward feels so rough.
Anything that encourages commander players to cut interaction, or replace it with groan-inducing boardwipes definitely needs to be treated respectfully!
To finish up, I also love the ward costs on Sedgemoor witch and GY trespasser. I'm also a fan of it on Sailor's Bane and other cards that aren't going to win the game by themselves, a big, dumb beatstick is a great place to stick ward imo.
One thing I might be interested in is a kinda shroud ward. Where you have ward that effects your spells too. Could be combined with non mana ward to have, say a card where you have to pay life to target it but it also does something when you lose life
I feel that ward should be greatly pulled back on, and Shroud reintroduced.
Shroud was inherently balanced, because while it protected the creature from your opponents, it also made it much harder for you to buff the creature. So while it made board wipes the only answer to remove it, the player with the threat wasn't able to build it up bigger and bigger if the opponent didn't have any boardwipes.
Hexproof and Ward remove that little negative, and are far stronger abilities because of it.
The feelsbad of not being able to target your own creature is far lesser than the feelsbad of the opponent not being able to remove a threat while you actively buff it bigger and bigger.
Thank you so much, Gavin, for this trip down memory lane. Autumn Willow, Deadly Insect. ☺ That was nice, just nice.
Also, a possible solution to Ward's problems- particularly the one at 8:18- also lies in the past. Have you considered doing something like Clergy of the Holy Nimbus and Knight of the Holy Nimbus?
“Hexproof. (Cost): [CARDNAME] loses Hexproof until ens of turn. Only your opponents may play this ability.”
My favourite Ward card is Wondrous Crucible. It's such a great comeback card, allowing you to rebuild your board and protecting that board while you cultivate it. I also had a lot of fun with Mishra, Tamer of Mak Fawa before I had to make space in my Mishra, Eminent One deck. That "Ward: Sacrifice a permanent" gave everyone pause for thought.
Personally I really like Ward, mostly because of how varied the cost can be. Wether it's mana, life, sacrificing permanents, and I'm sure we'll see specific colored mana and discard in the future, maybe even milling. It's a protection that offers a lot of variation and potential. But I do have to admit that it has some issues, especially if wizards continue to just stamp it on everything. It should be more rare than where it's currently going
I'm glad you are aware and looking to change things. you hit pretty much all of the points. the biggest one is that it's just too frequent, but also I'm glad you are looking to treat it more like hexproof. on so many creatures, it's at no extra cost. looking through some of the stuff to get it recently, the cards would already be really, exceptionally, envelope pushing good for the casting cost even if ward were removed.
Sean Fleishman was my mentor in the 90s! I used to tag along with him to all the events in the early days of MTG, often crammed in the back of his Honda CRV. He used to play a balance control deck.
Definitely agree with the point on non-mana ward costs - they make it feel much more like an active choice to make rather than either an "I can't ever afford this" or "it's never the right time to take the tempo hit". It also doesn't suffer the same issue of quickly getting "too high" - in a commander game, I've paid for Nine Fingers Keene's ward cost of 9 life like, three times, lol (and no, not with a deck that gains life).
Finding other types of non-mana costs for ward effects would be really cool to see. Like, what if a permanent had a ward that gave the caster a Chandra, Awakened Inferno emblem? That would be neat.
Great video, Gavin! Seems you have the right mindset and these seem like good standards moving forward. Personally, I think non-mana ward can also be a tool for creating flavour, such as the “Sacrifice a Legendary Artifact or Legendary Creature” on Sauron, the Dark Lord. That’s probably the best instance of Ward ever printed!
Part of the problem with ward, especially in casual commander is that people forget that it functions as a counterspell if the ward cost is not played. So many times in casual commander players will target a creature with ward, not pay the cost, and will just change the target when someone mentions the ward cost. It's not the same dealing with hexproof, since mechanically speaking you can't even attempt to target it with a spell or ability.
I think you really got the right lessons here. Maybe could have talked about whether some of these protections should be restricted in the color pie, archetypes can always answer? White can ward more, but blue could play around it? I would also hope that any future protection design conversations include shield counters, they are fun, can be answered usually by costing another spell or action and sometimes are just a great flavor fit.
(What if a shield equipment adds a shield counter each turn?)
I think you made good points on ward and how it should be used going forward.
Important note: regardless of the issues you’ve encountered to this point, it is still lightyears better than static hexproof (which was a big mistake along with static indestructible).
I really love the idea of non-mana ward. Sedgemoor witch is a great example, and I think Sauron is as well but for a different reason - for Sauron it works as "hexproof with a weakness" that's pretty flavorful to the character.
Well said, and it feels good knowing that there is reflection happening on these Ward costs and going forward we might see more palpable versions that are interesting enough to still protect a card but also not so resource intensive that it feels like it is pseudo hexproof
My biggest gripe with Ward is that it counters the targeting spell after cast if the ward isn't paid, instead of being an additional cost, causing feelsbad moments if you forget a creature had ward and aren't able to pay the ward cost. Obviously a skill issue, but anyway.
One thing I wish would change is that Ward should only trigger once per turn.
As you said, it's really bad for red to pay multiple times for removal, but it also stifles fun lines of play that require multiple targeting sources. Like tapping a creature and using at "target tapped creature" effect. That's basically impossible on Ward creatures.
Ward 1 or 2 on red and/or green spells to make them harder to counter could be a useful tool.
Ward of 'The controller may draw a card' could be a powerful deterrent. Messing with card tempo without messing with mana tempo.
Could even mess with permanent tempo, and allow something like a land drop or a token of some sort for the controller as a ward cost.
Thank you Gavin for this! It makes me feel as a magic player like I know that the design team is really thinking hard about every mechanic you guys introduce into the game and make changes to the future to make better cards! Everything you talked about is exactly how I feel about ward and it's great to know that there may be changes going forward to help fix some of the problems it has! Keep making these great inside videos, I love seeing inside the design teams thought processes!
Ward - Discard a card is so huge on Graveyard Tresspasser because it's already likely gained some value on ETB a lot of the time, and just playing a creature to block it means it's going to be able to generate some value again when they attack with it. Especially when it's occasionaly a 3 mana 4/4.
My favorite Ward card is Sauron. Ward - Sacrifice a Legendary (Creature or Artifact).
It’s potent, flavorful, and unique. It’s a real cost, but something that most players will have access to (in Commander).
Non-Mana Ward is interesting, and can even combine with a low mana cost of 1 if needed. It’s flexible and interesting, and I feel has the most Fun potential of these options (though obviously care for Legacy and Vintage should be taken).
I have always felt Hexproof was too strong, and preferred Shroud (not like I want things changing now).
Thanks for this video. Really liked it.
I started with Core 2012, and one of the first cards I got was Combust. I think that using Ward in the future could also open to cards that can get through the ability with a niche use like the color requirement of Combust's target.
Ward is definitely a good example of developing a mechanic into something that has "design space". You can go up or down in mana cost, you can use non-mana wards, and you can get around it with uncounterable clauses (since ward counters, rather than prevents targeting).
Very happy to see how it's come since the days of Shroud.
Gotta say, I think I fully agree with your breakdown and thought process for ward. Ward 4 is something that screams "Dont even Bother" when seeing it across the table, and Ward 2 is just a very healthy middle I think. I will say, I will be excited to see more Ward (Non-Mana Cost) on other cards, its always good to feel like we have more control over that cost, especially when its paying life.
Non-mana ward are some of my favorite wards. Especially if its falvorful or unique. Giving ward to instants and sorceries could be another idea. Something like how Kaervek's Torch works could be put on other bigger, splashy spells.
One small request: can we bring back Shroud? Not a whole bunch, but the occasional Shroud creature would be great.
Empyrial Archangel, as an example is an amazing design. Expensive, powerful, game-changing. But, without protection she’s not worth her cost, and if it was Hexproof instead she would be ridiculous.
You definitely hit the nail on the head with your conclusion on Ward. it can be a great mechanic and i look forward to see what else you do with it in the future.
Totally agree. Ward 1-2 already makes you think twice regarding if you want to spend mana in getting rid of it or just wait until other player will do it for you. But it's also true that, like others mentioned, encourages the use of boardwipes.
Regarding commander, I really believe that this kind of keywords shouldn't be on legendary creatures (we all kind of remember the first version of Narset... horrible to play with/against), and extend a more equip/aura/instant use of it to protect our things.
Another thing to keep in mind for ward on commanders, it's not a one time thing.
If you put Ward 2 on a commander, especially ones with green in their identity, it might seem more achievable to remove, but it also means that the ramp deck that can probably run the commander out immediately the turn after will most likely do so, meaning that it should never be considered a one time cost, you will have to pay that tax multiple times as well.
Been a complaint of mine for about a year now, this feels perfectly addressed. Thanks Gavin!
One way to fix ward, at least for commander and multi-spell based removal is if the keyword (or a future keyword) was reworked into something like the following:
Ward (X): This creature has Hexproof. Any player may pay (X) to disable Hexproof until the start of it's owners next Untap step.