Christopher Hitchens, Rabbi Kushner, Rev Gomes: Believers vs Non-believers vs Religions
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- čas přidán 7. 09. 2024
- Selected full Forums now available at www.theforumcha... Connecticut Forum panelists, Rev. Peter Gomes, Rabbi Harold Kushner and Christopher Hitchens answer a fundamental question about religious conflict in the world during "God" Forum. The moderator for The Forum was Connie Schultz.
Learn more about The Connecticut Forum and upcoming events at www.ctforum.org
See FULL FORUMS at www.theforumchannel.tv
Man , Hitchens is so honest. Truly a human ideal.
He articulates the thoughts in my head. I wish i was so good as to be able to do it myself.
Indeed, but his arguments also came from a huge amount of research and reading from many sources, and he could conjure these up with ease, and so demolish opponents.
No you didn't you liar.
@Greg Yes, I've read most of his books, so very entertaining, especially 'god is not great', and 'the portable atheist'.
Haha, you have to love Hitchens, "I wouldn't go if i was asked" Excellent.
Oh my God, yes. The defeat of universalism! I love you Hitchens.
hitchens shows you can be against religon without hating religous people. he is brilliant
Christopher hitchens is just so good in this.!!
I honestly can't believe in 2021 people still engage in circumcision
Christopher hitchens is just so good in this. He makes the other two seem infantile. And what he says is so right. He cust to the chase every time and does so simply and effectively.
"The trouble with religion only starts when people have affirmed that it's true."
Christopher Hitchens, your voice is like melted butter.
Thank you for posting this, CTFORUM.
I love watching him squirm with discomfort from the naive statements of his opponents.
I fucking love this.
thanks so much your efforts in providing these clips, it is very much appreciated, take care.
You want real sanity in this world? Then we need more, much more people like Christopher Hitchens and George Carlin in this ignorant world.
Great video, thanks for posting it!
Christianity vs Judism? That's like the difference between getting drunk on Vodka vs Scotch. You end up in the exact same stupor.
Omg Hitchens is amazing.
Another Hitchslap!! Lol
+afvro75 another 1 (dj khaled voice)
I'm just glad Hitchens is on my side.
even the rabbi cracked up
Religion is just a comfort blanket to explain what happens to us after we die. If there is a god, it is certainly not one our modern religions advertise. But, if it gives people comfort, as long as it doesnt infringe on anyone else, let them have it.
Religion should be a free choice, not imposed, sold, fought for, get insulted over or feel offended by. If one wants to be religious, by all means, but don't sell it at a corner of the street, don't go door to door, don't blow yourself up over it
it isn't hard to expose all the falsehoods of religion. hitchens just did it beter than anyone else
There is no evidence that a great world civilization arose, without a philosophy of the Union of Nature and Man. This Sacred relationship, diverse according to their cultures, all brought together the power that kept a people united in a cause. And it was their cause, the right to be the People. and to afflict reality with their presence while owing respect to Nature for it's Power, and to Man for his talent to speak to everything in the environment and associate to everything with Passion
You may find the definition too 'broad', but it's still accurate. He who is without theism (a belief in a personal god) is an atheist by definition.
Other distinctions can be interesting, but they venture much more into the realm of opinion. Also, nontheism is the truly broad term here, and all types of atheism are part of it. If you're avoiding overly broad definitions, perhaps that's the one you should discard.
This is important since it prevents theists from saying that atheists use faith.
holy hell. Hitchens is ruthless. I would not want to tango with him verbally. Damn!
It may have dropped since 90 but it is still way up from the 60's and I will assure you until people get a hold of God it will never reach the level it once was.
You got to love Hitchens
"My position concerning god is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivd consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and enoblement of life does not need the idea of a lawgiver, especially a lawgiver who works on the basis of reward and punishment."
A. E. in a letter to M Berkowitz, October 25, 1950
Hitchens was a Man among men.
I've found Mr Hitchens to be incredibly restrained in these discussions. he usually tears the throat out of people when he disagrees with them (which i enjoy watching, and is usually deserved). I guess because the forum is such a good one, and the other speakers are quite well spoken.
Please post the debate in its entirety.
time saving tip: just fast forward to the parts where hitchens is talking
502 likes and 3 dislikes gives me faith in humanity once again :-)
not originally mine but it was so good i had to share it
@Acoustiic it is not that we shouldn´t question it, just that we should not move on to impose our morality upon others as a result. Different way of life and different ways of thinking can seem ridiculous yet it is not acceptable to then regard it as worng and therefore removable. It is fair to suggest alternatives, not to demand change. Arrogance doesn´t come with questioning, it comes with the, sometimes forceful, demand for change brought about by misunderstanding. Let me know what you think.
You make this point quite well and I'm not surprised that no one has challenged you on it or even acknowledged the clarity of this idea.
It's so important to fundamentalists that they be able to say, "Atheists did some terrible shit, too!"
Yeah, they did. Because they were evil humans, not because were "good atheists."
The inquisition came about purely out of religious fervor and obedience to dogmatic religious law. It was seen as a holy and good thing at the time. "Good christians" did it.
The idea of the human ability to believe is the same as being inspired by the poetic presentation of the desire for a good outcome. If you believe to put your best foot forward, that reacts internally to the placebo effect of enhancing your performance by the zeal of the romanticism of the idea, being the best , and committing oneself to the act of winning the day, where the victory shows people create futures just as well as Nature has shown it's own talent to alter the world forever.
Humanity may not agree what the bounderies of morality are, but all this command causes humanity to do is keep their own intentions in check. Asking oneself if they might not like someone else to do to them the things they would do to others, will cause them to search themselves and treat others with empathy, rather than obligation or even blatent cruelty.
You sound respectful I wish we could talk in person over coffee. I think we could have a civilized discussion, unlike a few otherers I have talked to they don't have any respect but you do. I like that. I am in California near Sac if that would ever be possible.
I am not well off and wish I had health care to take care of the problems that I sometimes have. I can't afford and don't have health care. Instead I invested my money in something that would keep me out of the doctors. I changed my eating habits, I don't get sick anymore. That saves a lot of money. Now I am working on changing my job situation by going to school and learning something that will I can work and earn a living and won't put so much strain on my life. That also helps.
@Canuckforces2 The full Forum is available at theforumchannel.tv - check it out!
the new testament even agrees and asks us to "Go in through the narrow gate, because the gate is wide and the road is spacious that leads to destruction, and many people are entering by it. 'How narrow is the gate and how constricted is the road that leads to life, and there aren't many people who find it!" Matt 7:13-14 This simply means that there are many religions out there but Christianity has at least one differing and essential differance than ALL of them.
Man, what a mind!! what a man Hitchens is, I hope to one day find a man with a similar brilliant way of debating, thinking so clearly, speaking so poetically and kick ass! freak'n hot ;)
that shot of Hitchens at 1:40 cracked me up.
Hitchens rules.
Thats right. And my point is God does not ask us to cast off all reason in order to embrace faith. a lot of people think it means blind faith. or blind beleif without reasoning. It's not though. faith is of itself essentially meant to represent trust. (I say essentially because this word embodies multiple defs all of which are correct and necessary) giving trust to Jesus about whether He loves us enough to save us, is what the verse ultimately means when it says whosoever beleiveth in Him
There is so much more wisdom in the story than its literal claims. Christians seem to not understand that you can vouch for the validity of a statement without insisting it is dauntingly literal. 7 days? time was not expressed then as we do now, for ex: a week was a certain span of years we cannot say it is anything more than an expression of seperate stages to creation...
Wow! What a response!
For some reason these videos always have a sound issue.. I am 40% deaf in one ear and this is so hard to hear.. frustrating! Fix sound please for me!
Yeah, I've literally got my sound turned up to max and can barely hear it.
I must say that it was not even close. Rabbi Kushner was so elequent. He made the others look foolish even though he did not intend to do so.
Alas the full video will not be available right away. I will keep you posted once it is.
Bravo Hitchens!
@Acoustiic This is where we differ. I strongly believe that though customs and traditions which appear 'primitive' may shock those of us who don´t fully understand them it is not our place to judge the rituals by our own standards. Religious belief doesn't hinder progress in any scientific field, perhaps in the past religious figures have discouraged, sometimes violently, the progression of science. Yet were it not for the inquisitive nature of born of religiously driven questions we would have-
They both got Hitch bitch slapped!! :-D I wish he was still alive, because we really need people like him
Ingenious.
Anyone with a knowlege in literature can attest that the "flaws or contradictions" people like to point out are that much more authentic and realistic in its diversity.
I was there The debate started to get heated when the rabbi made the joke about his sons circumcision. Hitchens really ripped into him(the rabbi), and did not let him get away with making light of religious sponsored mutilation of genitals.
Katalyzt
(AP) - A wide-ranging study on American religious life.
Fifteen percent of respondents said they had no religion, an increase from 14.2 percent in 2001 and 8.2 percent in 1990.
Northern New England surpassed the Pacific Northwest as the least religious region, with Vermont reporting the highest share of those claiming no religion, at 34 percent. Still, the study found that the numbers of Americans with no religion rose in every state.
Bang on Christopher
World Religions have relevance to their social and historical advancements. The seeker of truth will not void out other people's beliefs. Jesus spoke of many fine pearls of wisdom in the world, and simply argued that a merchant would sell off for value, all other prior religions, and invest in Jesus Christ as the finest pearl in all the world, worth more than all others combined. That does not insult how people reasoned natural forces as elemental spirits or gods, they did have value.
I agree with Hitchens generally - and he has to make fast points in the context of this show, however most of these wars and disputes he referred to are also political in nature - not just religious. I'm not saying religion couldn't have made the issue worse, but this is not the only aspect to it here.
It abolishes law and embraces the new law of Jesus Christ which is embodied in nothing more than Love. His law takes us from performing or refusing to perform and action, to striving to act with the simpleist compassionate motive and correct intention. This is what was meant when He told the listeners "good job for not committing adultery, BUT now if you look and commit it in your heart... Its a sin," This law is tougher and cuts deeper, but then again, thats the point.
Wow...the Christian love is being passed around so thickly today...
you can see the same thing through many windows, doesn't mean that any one of the windows is the One True Window .. they're all facing towards the same thing.. some people look at others looking in at their windows and think that they're wrong for not looking in thru theirs, but these are the people who can't see past the window itself, and it's not impossible for people to let others look in thru whichever window they choose to
That was exactly my point... If Hitchens and adknerr can take issue with people they meet and project that anger unto religion as a whole, the valid and proper response would be to do the same against atheism. I think that is a ponderable quandary. I can't bear anger towards atheist, just challenge them with my thoughts. Since everybody i know are atheists, including my family, my friends, my fellow students, my teachers, and the majority of my country (Denmark)
proceeding verses
42: For they are my servants, which I brought forth out of the land of Egypt: they shall not be sold as bondmen.
43: Thou shalt not rule over him with rigour; but shalt fear thy God.
44: Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
No one ever accused Hitchens of holding back.
Mr Hitchens had the big industrial steam hammer out in this debate and he was just freewheeling lol.
The man is unique and debates will be massively diminished without him.
I never argue that we are not more informed today about the material world. I only argue that no matter how much we know, the whole world remains the whole world as One Reality. That idea has been rejected by Atheists and given over to new myths about Alien Race Interventions, and Daughter Universes that by some Darwinian theory has evolved order out of chaos. The Faith in God means the Reality Itself is a Oneness, not that there is one particular god to believe in, but the Reality Is One
You could be right Padraic, as I said just my first assumption.
However the real tragedy lies in the fact that we have to debate which of the times the Protestants and Catholics were killing each other.
verses following
47: And if a sojourner or stranger wax rich by thee, and thy brother that dwelleth by him wax poor, and sell himself unto the stranger or sojourner by thee, or to the stock of the stranger's family:
48: After that he is sold he may be redeemed again; one of his brethren may redeem him:
49: Either his uncle, or his uncle's son, may redeem him, or any that is nigh of kin unto him of his family may redeem him; or if he be able, he may redeem himself.
My quote was in context, look up the king James version of Leviticus chapter 24
As yes, thanks for showing how the revealed word of god contradicts over and over again.
“Love you enemies, do good to those who hate you, and pray for the ones who treat you with contempt” “If a man strikes you on your cheek, turn to him the other, do not answer evil with evil.”
I'm confused by this.....
@@animalcol1 Sounds like ridiculous advice to me.
Yes, that's true.
I think Hitchens' point, in the context of this discussion, is best highlighted by his book sub-title, "How religion poisons everything".
Certinatly, the Northern Ireland conflicts were political and territorial, but the churches are absolutely responsible for throwing gasoline on the fire, and very happily making a bad situation, worse.
The bible says if you are lacking wisdom ask and it will be given you, you gave up before you even reached a conclusion, God does not ask us to be perfect, we are imperfect and He actually commends us for admitting the fact, we are not called to be perfect but to be forgiven, we can be made perfect through Christ and with time grow to fully understand His love. But not instantly,God could have made us to automatically follow Him
@Acoustiic I can understand that the power of a deeply moving faith does sometimes motivate people to perform horrific acts, but there are many other things which bring about violence on an immeasurable scale which are wholly irreligious e.g. Hiroshima´s destruction, the Holocaust etc. Though you could point to the religious book to find blame for someone´s inexplicable actions it should always be the perpetrator, not the cause, which should be judged.
Hitchens the apostate, .... he sounds sensible and reasonable to me. 😌👍
I wonder , Mr Hitchens, if there is a God who's intervened in human affairs, as Christ has, would you appreciate a leader like that? I doubt the North Korean's have ever had a dictator who was willing to sacrifice himself for the good of others.
Those of us who've chosen to enter Gods world have done so by choice and our worship is just appreciation, awe, and natural human expression over what we'll see as magnificence. You too, the bible says, will fall to your knees and honestly worship.
And this differance makes it stand alone seperate and sometimes either too simple for some or too radically loving for others. Either way its a narrow path among many other seperate paths.
@zorksvik
I do understand that the official doctrine does not directly condone selling indulgences. The officialdom of this depends solely on what you call official. If the Pope makes an official offer to sell indulgences in order as to fund the Vatican's constructions i do think it can be considered official, and as such is in direct contradiction with the doctrine of papal infallibility which claims it makes the Pope unable to make a statement contradicting Jesus' fundamental teachings.
best comment ive seen in a while
"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish."
"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind."
"We should take care not to make the intellect our god; it has, of course, powerful muscles, but no personality."
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Einstein said this, which quotes did you read?
i want the rest of this discussion!!!!!!
czcams.com/video/veXCL_bzPHg/video.html
If it's "just a comfort blanket" then it must be the most uncomfortable blanket ever invented. Sin, God who is perfect and expect perfect from us, a Judge who shall judge every little thing you've done, thought you've had and word you've said. I'm not so sure about that...
I quoted two verses fully, the proceeding and following verse if added wouldn't added any context. But don't take my word, read the blasted thing.
See the full Forum on The Forum Channel.
We are accountable to the law and to ourselves, and so are you, because god has yet to stop a person from doing a crime. In fact, studies should moral atheistic nations are more peaceful and less violent.
i meant that just as a hypothetical, and for it to be as free from assumptions as possible .. whether there's something to see thru the window, or whether we're all actually looking in to totally different rooms, these are different questions entirely .. and my thoughts on that are that god's a scientific hypothesis, therefore ontological arguments don't mean a thing.. we just don't have the technology that might prove its existence (and maybe we'll never have such technology) ..
@femsual
P.S. if he exists outside of space and time then by definition there is no way of proving he exists or not. It is like when people talk about parallel universes and other theoretical physics. It's fine to postulate things, but entirely academic as we can't ever know.
But at least the physicists have the honesty to admit they don't actually know.
@CarmineFragione "Christopher Hitchens makes his money talking about why he hates religion..."
Hitchens is in the business of destroying illusions. I think he performs a useful service. He makes people think, even if he's wrong about something. That's extremely important; it's how we learn. Most religions discourage people from questioning and criticising which is a really bad thing!
I prefer to know the truth instead believing things just because they are comforting, convenient or popular.
Just how he stands there: upright.
thus resulting in no one but the church receiving the authority to proclaim truth. If you actually research the biography's or even the character of the men who traded their lives for our religious freedoms today, you would know that it would be impossible for them to alter the words in any way simply because this is exactly what they were trying to overcome. And it is true that there are many religions out there
People believe purely for the fact that it comforts them. They dont have the moral integrity or the intellectual courage to see the reasonable and rational explainations that we have availabe today for our existence and for what has happened in the history of mankind and the planet.
In 2001, President Bush issued his first order as president. He created a program to encourage religious organizations to receive taxpayer funds to perform social services. The Office of Faith-Based Initiatives, infuriated many. Civil libertarians said it violated the separation of church and state, liberals suggested that the office was paying off political supporters, and even Christian conservatives worried about government regulation.
@staraffinity There are literal, practical reasons for honoring Gods commandments. Wisdom projects a positive outcome by simply trusting and doing the right thing even when it's the opposite of what our selfish personal desires urge us to do
Maybe you don't know anything deep down. If you don't know who you are, why you're here and where you're going then there's room to learn and grow. I'll say this, you want to make peace with God while the treaty is on the table. Free will has responsibility
@zorksvik
3. The doctrine about indulgences did not ban selling them, and the Pope himself sold indulgences to fund the St Peter Basilica...it doesnt get more official than this. It was not abuse, it was simply use of the system that the Church created. The only reason it is not still using it is because of the Church having lost most of its influence in the world.
@CarmineFragione
science is a description of the natural world. A scientific theory is the closest explanation we have to an observation in the natural world. When science says something does not happen, generally it does not happen, and if it does, we modify the theory so this observation can be explained but still explain the other observations. However you will always have that no perpetual motion devices can be built because energy is always lost,
3:33 "... I don´t want to live is some f. celestial North Korea for one thing..." Brilliant. And true.
@Acoustiic There are many practices which seem to originate from a religious belief, but it is most likely that things like circumcision (male and female alike) have originated from anthropological, traditional and cultural ideology and have developed into acts of religious faith or observance. So these ´religious´acts have evolved into a religious context, it is likely that religious texts are not their origin but their final destination.
45: Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
46: And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.