my parents gifted me a watch they had purchased in Europe around 1970. After wearing it for about a year I checked it out with a geiger counter out of idle curiosity. It pegged the geiger counter on the low scale thru the crystal and half way up thru the steel back. I put it away and never wore it again.
I grew up in the ‘60s. I've lost count of the amount of “Baby Bens” (West Clock), luminous wrist watches, and other miscellaneous glow-in-the-dark timepieces I've been in contact with over my almost 60 years. I can't help but think, among other factors, of these radium timepieces have contributed to ever-rising CANCER rates during the 20th century.....🤔
I recently bought a 1950s Bulova watch with radium luminous hands and dots outside of each index on the dial… Watching this video made me consider whether I should replace it with one without lumes. I never thought something small like watches can be so dangerous.
Very interesting and I think some really good advice. I had an uncle that was a chemist at ORNL beginning in 1942 and informed me quite well on the disasters of the ladies that painted the radium on to watches. It is so unfortunate that people that know about these hazards may not be allowed to share that knowledge with the public as it might impact a business and the bottom-line... There seems to be an occupational hazard in just about everything we do. I have several of the old Civil Defense Geiger counters and a newer Radex, the size of a cigarette pack and a couple of radioactive dial watches the "hottest" being a Waltham 8 day watch. You have some really hot watches. I have collected radioactive minerals for some time and have some that should be approached with caution and definitely not held with bare hands. But some of the radioactive level of gamma from your watches is significant. Here is a video I posted some time back that you may like. czcams.com/video/JhxTMIcq_aU/video.html
When working on watches with Radium one of the first things to consider are gloves. Next would be ventilation. Then face mask. My biggest worry was you were handling the material without wearing rubber gloves or at least finger cotts. Very informative, thanks. Good Fortunes, Great Successes and Many Blessings 🤝
Actually in the case of radium, it will be virtually identical today to when it was made. Radium has a half life of around 1600 years, so it will decay to half of its current activity somewhere around the year 3600.
@@hugeshows USDR'S meltdown: I can't spell it right - Chynobil, that's radiation went around the world & three mile island. Think about it.Trev New Zealand South Pacific.
Matt , there is an old TV doco about some factory workers coming down with some mouth diseases & cancers & the SEA or Malaysian DRs couldn't figure out the cause until they learnt they were dipping their radioactive paintbrushs in their mouths leading to the weird deformaties. They factory owners were mass sued & lost.It might even be on tape here on CZcams.Trev NZ
To be clear, I'm not disposing of all of those pieces. Some of them have sentimental value. However, I'm being aware of how hot each piece is, its relative value to me, while factoring in my decision on whether it's worth (whatever) additional risk it may potentially pose to me and those around me.
I collect radioactive sources, and I do collect radium lumed watches. Whether they're just barely detectable or they are _hot,_ I would never get rid of them. Also, if they are sealed, there's extremely little to be concerned about. Even if they have a breach in the crystal or elsewhere, the best thing to do is put it in a couple of plastic bags or containers. The radiation itself is quite low in reality. The only concern I have is to make sure the actual radium lume doesn't get inside of you. It's chemistry is what makes it far more dangerous than just its radioactivity.
@@KarbineKyle That seems to be the most common opinion about them, but if I didn't bore you to death before you made it to the end of the video, my overall point is that I'm measuring 4 orders of magnitude difference between my weakest example and my hottest example. And these are just ones I've collected over a year or so. I find it hard to generalize about exposure safety when the level of activity varies so widely, especially when you consider that this is potentially an item that you strap to your wrist. The pieces ranged from 40 counts per minute to over 40,000. And we're not talking about weak radiation here either, the detector I use has a glass Geiger tube so it's not picking up *any* of the alpha radiation or weak betas. 40,000 counts a minute of penetrating, ionizing radiation is not something to treat casually. And also bear in mind that 40k counts is from a detector that isn't even able to cover the surface area of the dial, it's about the size of a cigarette. A pancake probe would probably measure over 100k counts, and far far more if it had a mica alpha window. And unless you test each piece you have, how will you know which ones are that bad?
@@KarbineKyle Holy crap I just typed out a very detailed reply and youtube ate it. Great post, thanks for all of the tips and observations. I both answered and asked questions, and right now I'm too pissed at the comments feature to re-do it. But I'll get back to you, and please email me if you want to take this stupidly hot junk dial off my hands.
I watched the whole video, and it wasn't boring. I liked it! I'm just a radiophile when it comes to this! A mica window Geiger-Müller counter is the best, and it would definitely read over 100 kCPM on your hottest source. As a general rule, although crude, a pancake type detector is usually about 10X more sensitive than beta/gamma only tube-and that they can detect alpha too. At least in my experience. I use distance, time, and shielding. Also, Q-factors, which is how much biological damage a type of particle can cause. Beta, gamma, and X-ray have a Q-factor of 1, whereas alpha has a Q-factor of 20. Even though alpha has very poor penetration, it does 20X more damage internally. I would say that if a source is a "point source", you won't receive a full-body dose. However, what you said about the sources being unsealed is very important, since radon can escape. Activated carbon is effective at absorbing the radon, and the decay products will also be present in the carbon after the radon has decayed, and they will remain. Radium is "sticky". It doesn't wash off as easily as other radionuclides I've handled. Plus, there are clues to see if an instrument has been painted with radium lume. If the lume is discolored, darkened, and/or has caused burns to the dial or crystal, there's a good chance that it's radium. Also, it's probably high in concentration too. I know that radium lumed instruments can vastly vary in the activity they have. As for radioactivity, when you start getting into 100,000 CPM or higher, you don't want to handle it for hours, or carry it around in your pocket for example. If it's only putting out a few hundred or few thousand CPM, I don't see much of a hazard, as long as it's not close to any sensitive organs for many days. For something in between, like several thousand CPM to 100,000 CPM, I'd still use caution, however if I have to be exposed for long periods of time, I would use glass or Plexiglas shielding to work around, so you can see what your doing. Lead is great for gamma and X-ray only, however, lead for example can produce secondary radiation, called "Bremsstrahlung", which are braking X-rays. The heavier the element, the more energetic the secondary X-rays will be when a high-energy beta particle for example interacts with said shielding. So, specific radionuclides with specific shielding can be more of a hazard if your using, say, lead to shield strong beta radiation from strontium-90 for example. I always use the inverse square law, so that my dose drops exponentially as I move away or towards a source. Anyway, I know this is long, but I keep radium sources sealed inside something airtight with activated charcoal, and at least a few meters away. That's just me. However, I can understand wearing these too much, and especially working with sources that aren't sealed well, because radium is very hazardous if you inhale or ingest it. Especially for people who may not know.
I've had my comments removed like that too! I don't know what it is exactly, but it's very frustrating! I don't know how to send you my email or PM you. I think CZcams got rid of PM'ing! Anyway, if you don't want some of these hot dials, I'll take them off of your hands! I don't know what your email address is, and I don't know how to PM mine to you . . .
Thank you for the video! It made me get that geiger counter before I acquired my first real vintage (ww2) watch, to make sure it's not overly hot like those Hamiltons. The CPM is around 500, which seems rather normal 🙂
As someone who collects radioactive things, this is one of the most accurate horological videos on radium I've seen, many other horological videos really underestimate the danger of radium due to a general lack of knowledge and a bias towards loving watches with radium. Yes if you just wear one of these watches occasionally you'd probably be fine, but when you start to open them up and risk exposure to radium dust and radon is where things start to get really dangerous. Even just having them near where you are in your home can be dangerous, as radon will seep out of the watch. The geiger counter you're using can't even detect the insane amount of alpha particles coming off of these things. Alpha particles can act like a poison, because when they're ingested the particles can do high amounts of damage to your internal tissues. One big error in many inaccurate horological videos is assuming the main danger is from the pure dose rate, and not contamination and ingestion. Good job doing your research on this stuff, it's really important that these radium watches and clocks are handled, used, and stored safely
Hi. Im very nervous atm. I had an old ww2 compass laying around 80cm from me on a wood shelf for years now. I just tested with my gmc 300e counter and turns out, it had radium in it. had around 340cpm. a few cm away nothing just background radiation. how bad is it for me?
@@TRUEFFEL321 sounds like a bit of a dud, I wouldn't worry. Maybe move it a bit farther away to avoid potential radon, but it doesn't sound like an issue
@@EvilScientist fun fact I have problems with my colon since january and im waiting for my bowel reflection and I feel sick but my blood is fine. now i am a bit paranoid that this comes from the compass :'D
@@TRUEFFEL321 absolutely not, the levels coming off of you compass are negligible, you have nothing to worry about unless you open the compass and contaminate yourself
Great video! I also think your presentation was very lucid. The points were clearly made and the demonstration was eye opening. I own the same detector and while it wouldn't be used in a high level lab, it is really quite sufficient for general use. It certainly will warn you of any dangerous levels of radiation. I own a few Radium watches and some military pocket watch hands. The highest counts I got were about 500 and that was scary enough. Your watch that went over 40,000 CPM - well that got my attention! THANK YOU VERY MUCH for this video and it should help educate watch collectors of the very real dangers of Radium paint.
The hottest radium piece I have is from an old Soviet dosimeter/radiometer. I get about *_1 R/hr (10 mSv/hr)_* at close contact. However, my instruments are calibrated with cesium-137, so it won't be dead-on accurate, but it's close. My Inspector USB Geiger-Müller counter goes over 370,000 CPM, but it overflows around that high of a reading. However, it does have anti-saturation. When it rains, I get over 600 CPM just from natural radon washout when I wipe test a surface and wring out the rainwater. The counts come mostly from lead-214 (19.9 min) and bismuth-214 (26.8 min), which have unique energies and branching ratios (every radionuclide does) for beta and gamma radiation, but bismuth-214, especially, emits strong beta and gamma rays, with many energies and branching ratios. Also, using activated charcoal sealed with a radium source nearby can tell you if they are sealed well or not. It's good at absorbing radon. Watches lumed with radium were ceased in 1968, and clocks lumed with radium were ceased in 1978. For large sources, using the same or less radium concentrations was easier and safer, and it still provided decent radioluminescence. This is why newer radium clocks are generally less hotter than watches. Thank you! This was a cool video! If you do get rid of some of these, I'd be interested in taking them! A lot of people sell radium sources as elements/check sources!
Ah yes the famous DP-63A geiger counters with a small Strontium-90 check source that's already been through a half-life and then inexplicably also a Radium-226-doped dial that's 100x more radioactive than that! Seriously why did they even bother to make a dedicated check source for it?
In the 60's we used to buy what was called "luminous" paint, and make skeletons and skulls of cardboard and paint it on for fun, to frighten people, but it didn't contain any radium, only zinc sulphide and some other phosphors which are harmless. It's quite easy to tell the difference as luminous paint fades quite quickly after exposure to light whereas radium keeps on glowing. I always wanted to get some as a child, but I'm rather glad I didn't now!
I'm glad you mentioned the ORNL study. I've read it and it does indeed make certain assumptions. If you can confirm that your activity is similar, then it's undoubtedly a valid estimate--but if your pieces vary significantly in activity, then I'm a bit more skeptical about its findings.
Interesting video. I've always loved watches and recently started dabbling with vintage watches. I bought a small bag of old broken watches from someone and started tinkering. It's fascinating learning about a watch and its movement as you fix it. In that process however, I noticed one of them said "ra SWISS MADE ra" on the dial. That put me into a rabbit hole of terror now. I've put them all in tins and away from my work station and ordered a Geiger counter which will be here tomorrow. But I spent a few hours partially tearing down some of these watches oblivious to any dangers. I mean... they're just watches, right? Apparently not. Anyways, I'm hoping for the best when the counter comes in the mail, but I may have just eaten a few years off my life. 😷😢 Lesson learned...
I have an cold clock that has radium paint on the hands and numbers and I am picking up 300-400 CPM from it which is fairly high. We keep it outside in our patio area so at least it is in a well ventilated area.
Interesting video. Thanks for sharing. I also recently bump into some hot old alarm clock recently (~25K cpm on gmc-600) so not as hot as your watch ;) Just please don't say that they were stupid to build/use such material. They simply just didn't know ;( Maybe in few years ppl will think we were crazy to use bluetooth headset or 5g as it's not safe... (need many years to see statistics) Radium girls really had no idea about the danger of the paint they were using. Marie Curie also died due to exposure of radium and other radioactive sources because they just didn't know how lethal this stuff can be ;(
While most of what you said is true, the fact is that they knew about the dangers of radium and continued to use it for decades anyway. While they might not have known at first, those poor radium girls died decades before they finally stopped using the stuff.
people have known that radium was dangerious since 1901 even marie curie who discovered it knew it was dangerous but the general public thought it was safe and good for health because it was used to treat cancer. u could argue that people didnt know up until the 30s when the radium girls started dying but after that it was just business choosing money over their workers health considering radium was still being used on watch dials past that. there were better safety standards that couldve minimized their health risk that were used in industry at the time but for some reason were not given to the people making the watch dials in the usa (dont know about the rest of the world)
This is eye opening and should have a lot more views. Isn’t there a storage box you can buy that is lined such that it eliminates most or all of that discharge?
My mother found a folding travel alarm clock from the 70s or 80s. My sister told me it had radium on it. I brought it to my room, and I just couldn’t breathe; probably just anxiety. I put it back, and now I can breathe a little better.
Very interesting. But I'm puzzled. If these pieces are so dangerous then why would you store them in the your garage (as you said at the end of the vid)? Why wouldn't you remove the radium or discard them altogether?
They are not dangerous unless you actually eat those dials. The amount of localized radiation they give is very low. Unless you store them (and have a lot of them) in a closed room with bad ventilation, there is no problem. Otherwise there is a potential build-up of radon gas, which in itself is not radioactive enough to cause damage, and it decays in around 3.7 days, but its daughter particles, if the decay occurs in the lungs and in great quantity is a potential lug cancer risk. The main issue with ingesting radium is that its molecular structure is too similar to calcium, and the systems absorbs it in the body, fusing the radium with the bones and causing bone cancers over time. Don't eat the stuff basically.
Removing the radium will expose you to more risk than leaving it alone. The main risk (other than wearing it 24/7) is from eating or inhaling dust from the paint or radon gas decay. Storing it in a cabinet you aren't constantly close to is not dangerous.
Any cancer has a cause but rarely will we know for sure what it was. Probably a lot of cancers have been caused by the rays of ionizing radiation from a wrist watch.
Cancer arises from DNA mutations and a single ray of radiation (what is causing one click on a Geiger counter) is enough to start a cancer with some tiny chance. The chance increases as the number of rays increases. A radioactive wrist watch held near the brain while sleeping, might cause a tumor in the brain, for example. It’s a game of chance but winning it is bad luck.
I think there is a certain problem with the way your device is measuring radiation. The GMC-320 can only measure beta and gamma radiation together. It cannot show beta or gamma radiation separately. Which means that it measured maybe only beta radiation from your watches. Beta radiation is also not too good for the human body at certain levels. But it's by far not as dangerous as gamma radiation.
How can these be safely stored? Can they be safely stored? Perhaps you need to store your hottest pieces in a lead container? And then should you periodically take this container outside and open it to release the radon gas safely?
Your Geiger counter still would be unable to pick up the alpha radiation with a pancake probe due to it being blocked by the glass however you will be able to pick up more low energy betas coming off of them
I just discovered that I have owned, for about 4 years, a most likely radioactive Soviet tank clock. The watch was WITHOUT GLASS. I kept the watch mostly in a cardboard box, in a wardrobe drawer, near the underwear and clothes I wear every day. I don't know what level of radiation we're talking about because I don't have the instrument to measure it. What about the other wristwatches (without radio) that were kept in the same box, will they be contaminated? Should I worry? Do you have any general advice for me?
Interesting video. I recently acquired a vintage Seiko 62MAS from either 1966 or 1967. Do you know if Seiko was still using radium for their dials in the 60s? I’ve had a few close relatives who were non-smokers get lung cancer so I’m a little concerned about radon exposure. That last watch you tested is insane. I didn’t realize how variable the levels are.
@@hugeshows Thanks for taking the time to reply. I didn’t realize my brother has a Geiger counter he bought for his granite countertops. I measured the watch and it’s reading 0.10 MSv/h which I think is ok right?
2.2 milliRads per hour is unbelievable....and it was still climbing before you ended measurement. Wow! Edit: And then the Elgin at 26.5 mR/hr! Dont lick the dial lol.
I have an old radium compass that measures 500,000 CPM. Compete with that! lol. Although I have scintillation detector, which is more sensitive than a geiger counter.
It measures my background radiation in the house at >300CPM, due to radon, x-rays, and uranium and thorium in the soil and bricks on the house. I know this because the scintillation detector can not only measure CPM like a geiger counter, but it can also identify what isotopes are causing the radiation.
dam i opened up the case back on a 1940s longines that had radium hands .i was looking nice and close at the back of the case to see the fine engravings .Did i just kill myself ???
Very doubtful. If you're worried about your future, make sure you have your COVID vaccine. COVID is far more dangerous than a little radium at the moment.
Touching in and of itself is not dangerous, however any time you touch it you risk getting particles of radium on your hands, spreading them around your home, or possibly even ingesting them by touching your mouth or face. The primary danger from smallish amounts of radium is accidental ingestion or inhalation.
@@Jesus_paid_it_all Yes it was a bit "spicy" wasn't it? That dial at the end of the video particularly. Also, radium does offgas a small amount of radon into the surroundings, so keep that in mind when storing it.
@@hugeshows You just earned a subscriber! Its hard to think about the radium girls though with these, it's hard to explain, but your holding something that slowly killed its painter... Its especially hard to think about the fact that these could of been painted by Marquerite Carlough or Grace Fryer.
The only way to know for sure is to do gamma spectrum analysis on each sample, but based on the era in which those pieces came from, it's almost certainly radium. I have yet to find a vintage tritium piece that registers at all on this particular (cheap) Geiger counter.
I think radium was the best decision in (well many not watch making since it's on your wrist), but clockmaking Yes while it was dangerous to the painters, i just find radioluminescence and the fact that these things glowed indefinitely without ever being exposed to light, fascinating Have you ever seen scintillations with your eye? They look pretty neat, and besides, the amount of radiation exposure you'd get from having a clock around isn't that high, as long as you don't sleep next to it And ontop of everything else, the potassium 40 in our body probably emits more radiation than some of those dials, Its estimated that the average human body emits 300,000 to around 500,000 counts per minute worth of gamma just from the potassium 40 in our bodies alone (Of course, most of it escapes our bodies, but it's just a reference)
Decent question. Basically, that stuff isn't going to go through my skin as a powder, and I washed my hands immediately after this video and wiped the whole area down with a damp cloth which I then disposed of. The biggest risk I took was not wearing a respirator.
That really isn't that much though, those are historical items and you shouldn't throw them away just because of a little radiation, for comparisons sake, It's estimated that the average human body emits 300,000 to 500,000 counts per minute worth of radiation just from the potassium 40 we have in our bodies alone
Yeah, but that's an apples-to-bananas comparison, if you'll pardon the joke. The radiation from potassium-40 isn't as strong as the radiation from radium, nor will it be concentrated in one location in the body in the way ingested radium would be. I'm hardly an expert on that subject though. As I said in the video, most of the hazard comes from ingestion of radium rather than exposure to its rays, but it also decays into other radioactive isotopes which are bad to ingest as well. All radium dials give off some microscopic amounts of dust that you simply don't want in your lungs or saliva. Since cancer takes years or decades to develop, nobody really knows how dangerous the exposure is and at what levels. It's a game of probabilities, and you want to purchase as few tickets as possible.
my parents gifted me a watch they had purchased in Europe around 1970. After wearing it for about a year I checked it out with a geiger counter out of idle curiosity. It pegged the geiger counter on the low scale thru the crystal and half way up thru the steel back. I put it away and never wore it again.
😧
I grew up in the ‘60s. I've lost count of the amount of “Baby Bens” (West Clock), luminous wrist watches, and other miscellaneous glow-in-the-dark timepieces I've been in contact with over my almost 60 years. I can't help but think, among other factors, of these radium timepieces have contributed to ever-rising CANCER rates during the 20th century.....🤔
I recently bought a 1950s Bulova watch with radium luminous hands and dots outside of each index on the dial… Watching this video made me consider whether I should replace it with one without lumes. I never thought something small like watches can be so dangerous.
…so my grandfather and a few other family members worked for west clocks…luckily none of them have cancer
Very interesting and I think some really good advice. I had an uncle that was a chemist at ORNL beginning in 1942 and informed me quite well on the disasters of the ladies that painted the radium on to watches. It is so unfortunate that people that know about these hazards may not be allowed to share that knowledge with the public as it might impact a business and the bottom-line... There seems to be an occupational hazard in just about everything we do.
I have several of the old Civil Defense Geiger counters and a newer Radex, the size of a cigarette pack and a couple of radioactive dial watches the "hottest" being a Waltham 8 day watch. You have some really hot watches. I have collected radioactive minerals for some time and have some that should be approached with caution and definitely not held with bare hands. But some of the radioactive level of gamma from your watches is significant. Here is a video I posted some time back that you may like.
czcams.com/video/JhxTMIcq_aU/video.html
When working on watches with Radium one of the first things to consider are gloves. Next would be ventilation. Then face mask. My biggest worry was you were handling the material without wearing rubber gloves or at least finger cotts.
Very informative, thanks. Good Fortunes, Great Successes and Many Blessings 🤝
Neat video, I often wonder the amount of decay from 50-100 years to now. Just imagine the amount of radioactivity when it came off the factory line.
Actually in the case of radium, it will be virtually identical today to when it was made. Radium has a half life of around 1600 years, so it will decay to half of its current activity somewhere around the year 3600.
@@hugeshows USDR'S meltdown: I can't spell it right - Chynobil, that's radiation went around the world & three mile island. Think about it.Trev New Zealand South Pacific.
Matt , there is an old TV doco about some factory workers coming down with some mouth diseases & cancers & the SEA or Malaysian DRs couldn't figure out the cause until they learnt they were dipping their radioactive paintbrushs in their mouths leading to the weird deformaties. They factory owners were mass sued & lost.It might even be on tape here on CZcams.Trev NZ
@@trevinskiking2165 Radium girls
look up the radium girls!!! the guy that made the paint as well he was so heavy when he dies because of the radiation in his bones.
To be clear, I'm not disposing of all of those pieces. Some of them have sentimental value. However, I'm being aware of how hot each piece is, its relative value to me, while factoring in my decision on whether it's worth (whatever) additional risk it may potentially pose to me and those around me.
I collect radioactive sources, and I do collect radium lumed watches. Whether they're just barely detectable or they are _hot,_ I would never get rid of them. Also, if they are sealed, there's extremely little to be concerned about. Even if they have a breach in the crystal or elsewhere, the best thing to do is put it in a couple of plastic bags or containers. The radiation itself is quite low in reality. The only concern I have is to make sure the actual radium lume doesn't get inside of you. It's chemistry is what makes it far more dangerous than just its radioactivity.
@@KarbineKyle That seems to be the most common opinion about them, but if I didn't bore you to death before you made it to the end of the video, my overall point is that I'm measuring 4 orders of magnitude difference between my weakest example and my hottest example. And these are just ones I've collected over a year or so. I find it hard to generalize about exposure safety when the level of activity varies so widely, especially when you consider that this is potentially an item that you strap to your wrist. The pieces ranged from 40 counts per minute to over 40,000. And we're not talking about weak radiation here either, the detector I use has a glass Geiger tube so it's not picking up *any* of the alpha radiation or weak betas. 40,000 counts a minute of penetrating, ionizing radiation is not something to treat casually. And also bear in mind that 40k counts is from a detector that isn't even able to cover the surface area of the dial, it's about the size of a cigarette. A pancake probe would probably measure over 100k counts, and far far more if it had a mica alpha window. And unless you test each piece you have, how will you know which ones are that bad?
@@KarbineKyle Holy crap I just typed out a very detailed reply and youtube ate it. Great post, thanks for all of the tips and observations. I both answered and asked questions, and right now I'm too pissed at the comments feature to re-do it. But I'll get back to you, and please email me if you want to take this stupidly hot junk dial off my hands.
I watched the whole video, and it wasn't boring. I liked it! I'm just a radiophile when it comes to this! A mica window Geiger-Müller counter is the best, and it would definitely read over 100 kCPM on your hottest source. As a general rule, although crude, a pancake type detector is usually about 10X more sensitive than beta/gamma only tube-and that they can detect alpha too. At least in my experience. I use distance, time, and shielding. Also, Q-factors, which is how much biological damage a type of particle can cause. Beta, gamma, and X-ray have a Q-factor of 1, whereas alpha has a Q-factor of 20. Even though alpha has very poor penetration, it does 20X more damage internally. I would say that if a source is a "point source", you won't receive a full-body dose. However, what you said about the sources being unsealed is very important, since radon can escape. Activated carbon is effective at absorbing the radon, and the decay products will also be present in the carbon after the radon has decayed, and they will remain. Radium is "sticky". It doesn't wash off as easily as other radionuclides I've handled. Plus, there are clues to see if an instrument has been painted with radium lume. If the lume is discolored, darkened, and/or has caused burns to the dial or crystal, there's a good chance that it's radium. Also, it's probably high in concentration too. I know that radium lumed instruments can vastly vary in the activity they have. As for radioactivity, when you start getting into 100,000 CPM or higher, you don't want to handle it for hours, or carry it around in your pocket for example. If it's only putting out a few hundred or few thousand CPM, I don't see much of a hazard, as long as it's not close to any sensitive organs for many days. For something in between, like several thousand CPM to 100,000 CPM, I'd still use caution, however if I have to be exposed for long periods of time, I would use glass or Plexiglas shielding to work around, so you can see what your doing. Lead is great for gamma and X-ray only, however, lead for example can produce secondary radiation, called "Bremsstrahlung", which are braking X-rays. The heavier the element, the more energetic the secondary X-rays will be when a high-energy beta particle for example interacts with said shielding. So, specific radionuclides with specific shielding can be more of a hazard if your using, say, lead to shield strong beta radiation from strontium-90 for example. I always use the inverse square law, so that my dose drops exponentially as I move away or towards a source. Anyway, I know this is long, but I keep radium sources sealed inside something airtight with activated charcoal, and at least a few meters away. That's just me. However, I can understand wearing these too much, and especially working with sources that aren't sealed well, because radium is very hazardous if you inhale or ingest it. Especially for people who may not know.
I've had my comments removed like that too! I don't know what it is exactly, but it's very frustrating! I don't know how to send you my email or PM you. I think CZcams got rid of PM'ing! Anyway, if you don't want some of these hot dials, I'll take them off of your hands! I don't know what your email address is, and I don't know how to PM mine to you . . .
Try not to eat the watch.
Thank you for the video! It made me get that geiger counter before I acquired my first real vintage (ww2) watch, to make sure it's not overly hot like those Hamiltons. The CPM is around 500, which seems rather normal 🙂
I legit bought a marching compass the other day and checked it out, it maxed out between 4800 and 5200 cpm on my Geiger counter
As someone who collects radioactive things, this is one of the most accurate horological videos on radium I've seen, many other horological videos really underestimate the danger of radium due to a general lack of knowledge and a bias towards loving watches with radium.
Yes if you just wear one of these watches occasionally you'd probably be fine, but when you start to open them up and risk exposure to radium dust and radon is where things start to get really dangerous. Even just having them near where you are in your home can be dangerous, as radon will seep out of the watch.
The geiger counter you're using can't even detect the insane amount of alpha particles coming off of these things. Alpha particles can act like a poison, because when they're ingested the particles can do high amounts of damage to your internal tissues. One big error in many inaccurate horological videos is assuming the main danger is from the pure dose rate, and not contamination and ingestion.
Good job doing your research on this stuff, it's really important that these radium watches and clocks are handled, used, and stored safely
Hi. Im very nervous atm. I had an old ww2 compass laying around 80cm from me on a wood shelf for years now. I just tested with my gmc 300e counter and turns out, it had radium in it. had around 340cpm. a few cm away nothing just background radiation. how bad is it for me?
@@TRUEFFEL321 sounds like a bit of a dud, I wouldn't worry. Maybe move it a bit farther away to avoid potential radon, but it doesn't sound like an issue
@@EvilScientist fun fact I have problems with my colon since january and im waiting for my bowel reflection and I feel sick but my blood is fine. now i am a bit paranoid that this comes from the compass :'D
@@EvilScientist thanks for the answer dude
@@TRUEFFEL321 absolutely not, the levels coming off of you compass are negligible, you have nothing to worry about unless you open the compass and contaminate yourself
A fine video, thanks for the information, I'm certainly going to steer clear of pre 60s timepieces and probably I'll treat myself to a geiger counter.
Great video! I also think your presentation was very lucid. The points were clearly made and the demonstration was eye opening. I own the same detector and while it wouldn't be used in a high level lab, it is really quite sufficient for general use. It certainly will warn you of any dangerous levels of radiation. I own a few Radium watches and some military pocket watch hands. The highest counts I got were about 500 and that was scary enough. Your watch that went over 40,000 CPM - well that got my attention! THANK YOU VERY MUCH for this video and it should help educate watch collectors of the very real dangers of Radium paint.
The hottest radium piece I have is from an old Soviet dosimeter/radiometer. I get about *_1 R/hr (10 mSv/hr)_* at close contact. However, my instruments are calibrated with cesium-137, so it won't be dead-on accurate, but it's close. My Inspector USB Geiger-Müller counter goes over 370,000 CPM, but it overflows around that high of a reading. However, it does have anti-saturation. When it rains, I get over 600 CPM just from natural radon washout when I wipe test a surface and wring out the rainwater. The counts come mostly from lead-214 (19.9 min) and bismuth-214 (26.8 min), which have unique energies and branching ratios (every radionuclide does) for beta and gamma radiation, but bismuth-214, especially, emits strong beta and gamma rays, with many energies and branching ratios. Also, using activated charcoal sealed with a radium source nearby can tell you if they are sealed well or not. It's good at absorbing radon. Watches lumed with radium were ceased in 1968, and clocks lumed with radium were ceased in 1978. For large sources, using the same or less radium concentrations was easier and safer, and it still provided decent radioluminescence. This is why newer radium clocks are generally less hotter than watches. Thank you! This was a cool video! If you do get rid of some of these, I'd be interested in taking them! A lot of people sell radium sources as elements/check sources!
Ah yes the famous DP-63A geiger counters with a small Strontium-90 check source that's already been through a half-life and then inexplicably also a Radium-226-doped dial that's 100x more radioactive than that! Seriously why did they even bother to make a dedicated check source for it?
Is it a DP63? 10mSv sound way too much for that one
@@sonyxperiasmknot energy dose compensated, and probably used with a pancake so it detects alpha and beta. For accurate dose you only use gamma
In the 60's we used to buy what was called "luminous" paint, and make skeletons and skulls of cardboard and paint it on for fun, to frighten people, but it didn't contain any radium, only zinc sulphide and some other phosphors which are harmless. It's quite easy to tell the difference as luminous paint fades quite quickly after exposure to light whereas radium keeps on glowing. I always wanted to get some as a child, but I'm rather glad I didn't now!
I'm glad you mentioned the ORNL study. I've read it and it does indeed make certain assumptions. If you can confirm that your activity is similar, then it's undoubtedly a valid estimate--but if your pieces vary significantly in activity, then I'm a bit more skeptical about its findings.
I've just got the same Geiger counter, that last watch is HOT 🔥🔥
Great video.
Hey any way you could help me identify that counter? I want one!
@@PassTheSnailsit is a GMC-300
Interesting video. I've always loved watches and recently started dabbling with vintage watches. I bought a small bag of old broken watches from someone and started tinkering. It's fascinating learning about a watch and its movement as you fix it. In that process however, I noticed one of them said "ra SWISS MADE ra" on the dial. That put me into a rabbit hole of terror now. I've put them all in tins and away from my work station and ordered a Geiger counter which will be here tomorrow. But I spent a few hours partially tearing down some of these watches oblivious to any dangers. I mean... they're just watches, right? Apparently not. Anyways, I'm hoping for the best when the counter comes in the mail, but I may have just eaten a few years off my life. 😷😢 Lesson learned...
I have an cold clock that has radium paint on the hands and numbers and I am picking up 300-400 CPM from it which is fairly high. We keep it outside in our patio area so at least it is in a well ventilated area.
Good idea. My personal lay opinion is that 400 cpm is trivial as a dose, but who needs the resulting radon in their house at all?
Interesting video. Thanks for sharing. I also recently bump into some hot old alarm clock recently (~25K cpm on gmc-600) so not as hot as your watch ;)
Just please don't say that they were stupid to build/use such material. They simply just didn't know ;( Maybe in few years ppl will think we were crazy to use bluetooth headset or 5g as it's not safe... (need many years to see statistics)
Radium girls really had no idea about the danger of the paint they were using.
Marie Curie also died due to exposure of radium and other radioactive sources because they just didn't know how lethal this stuff can be ;(
While most of what you said is true, the fact is that they knew about the dangers of radium and continued to use it for decades anyway. While they might not have known at first, those poor radium girls died decades before they finally stopped using the stuff.
people have known that radium was dangerious since 1901 even marie curie who discovered it knew it was dangerous but the general public thought it was safe and good for health because it was used to treat cancer. u could argue that people didnt know up until the 30s when the radium girls started dying but after that it was just business choosing money over their workers health considering radium was still being used on watch dials past that. there were better safety standards that couldve minimized their health risk that were used in industry at the time but for some reason were not given to the people making the watch dials in the usa (dont know about the rest of the world)
The actual Radium girls didn't know but the management and owner did..it was a scandel...
Sir, you changed my life! Thank you! 💐
This is eye opening and should have a lot more views. Isn’t there a storage box you can buy that is lined such that it eliminates most or all of that discharge?
My mother found a folding travel alarm clock from the 70s or 80s. My sister told me it had radium on it. I brought it to my room, and I just couldn’t breathe; probably just anxiety. I put it back, and now I can breathe a little better.
If you're sure it's 70s or 80s, then it won't have radium.
Very interesting. But I'm puzzled. If these pieces are so dangerous then why would you store them in the your garage (as you said at the end of the vid)? Why wouldn't you remove the radium or discard them altogether?
They are not dangerous unless you actually eat those dials. The amount of localized radiation they give is very low. Unless you store them (and have a lot of them) in a closed room with bad ventilation, there is no problem. Otherwise there is a potential build-up of radon gas, which in itself is not radioactive enough to cause damage, and it decays in around 3.7 days, but its daughter particles, if the decay occurs in the lungs and in great quantity is a potential lug cancer risk.
The main issue with ingesting radium is that its molecular structure is too similar to calcium, and the systems absorbs it in the body, fusing the radium with the bones and causing bone cancers over time. Don't eat the stuff basically.
Removing the radium will expose you to more risk than leaving it alone. The main risk (other than wearing it 24/7) is from eating or inhaling dust from the paint or radon gas decay. Storing it in a cabinet you aren't constantly close to is not dangerous.
Oops, I've been wearing a 1950 Omega Seamaster every day for the last two years, will get a Geiger counter on it.
Good Video, well explained. Thank you
Any cancer has a cause but rarely will we know for sure what it was. Probably a lot of cancers have been caused by the rays of ionizing radiation from a wrist watch.
How do we know?
Cancer arises from DNA mutations and a single ray of radiation (what is causing one click on a Geiger counter) is enough to start a cancer with some tiny chance. The chance increases as the number of rays increases. A radioactive wrist watch held near the brain while sleeping, might cause a tumor in the brain, for example. It’s a game of chance but winning it is bad luck.
I really hope the old nurse watches, the little pocket watches hospital nurses wore over their breasts, didn't have a harmful amount of radium.
I think there is a certain problem with the way your device is measuring radiation. The GMC-320 can only measure beta and gamma radiation together. It cannot show beta or gamma radiation separately. Which means that it measured maybe only beta radiation from your watches. Beta radiation is also not too good for the human body at certain levels. But it's by far not as dangerous as gamma radiation.
How can these be safely stored? Can they be safely stored? Perhaps you need to store your hottest pieces in a lead container? And then should you periodically take this container outside and open it to release the radon gas safely?
Your Geiger counter still would be unable to pick up the alpha radiation with a pancake probe due to it being blocked by the glass however you will be able to pick up more low energy betas coming off of them
The 3rd Elgin I would never open EVER under any circumstances
I just discovered that I have owned, for about 4 years, a most likely radioactive Soviet tank clock. The watch was WITHOUT GLASS. I kept the watch mostly in a cardboard box, in a wardrobe drawer, near the underwear and clothes I wear every day. I don't know what level of radiation we're talking about because I don't have the instrument to measure it. What about the other wristwatches (without radio) that were kept in the same box, will they be contaminated? Should I worry? Do you have any general advice for me?
Interesting video. I recently acquired a vintage Seiko 62MAS from either 1966 or 1967. Do you know if Seiko was still using radium for their dials in the 60s? I’ve had a few close relatives who were non-smokers get lung cancer so I’m a little concerned about radon exposure. That last watch you tested is insane. I didn’t realize how variable the levels are.
I've never seen a Seiko from that era with radium. The Geiger counter I used is well under a hundred bucks if you want to be sure.
@@hugeshows Thanks for taking the time to reply. I didn’t realize my brother has a Geiger counter he bought for his granite countertops. I measured the watch and it’s reading 0.10 MSv/h which I think is ok right?
2.2 milliRads per hour is unbelievable....and it was still climbing before you ended measurement. Wow!
Edit: And then the Elgin at 26.5 mR/hr! Dont lick the dial lol.
I'm wondering is it on the same level as nuclear fallout ingestion
Wow! Scary stuff 😳
I have an old radium compass that measures 500,000 CPM. Compete with that! lol. Although I have scintillation detector, which is more sensitive than a geiger counter.
It measures my background radiation in the house at >300CPM, due to radon, x-rays, and uranium and thorium in the soil and bricks on the house. I know this because the scintillation detector can not only measure CPM like a geiger counter, but it can also identify what isotopes are causing the radiation.
Americium 241 also shows up a lot due to the smoke detectors in the house.
Tetangga saya berprofesi sebagai perbaikan arloji meninggal dengan gejala sakit pada gigi dan rahangnya.
dam i opened up the case back on a 1940s longines that had radium hands .i was looking nice and close at the back of the case to see the fine engravings .Did i just kill myself ???
Very doubtful. If you're worried about your future, make sure you have your COVID vaccine. COVID is far more dangerous than a little radium at the moment.
@@hugeshows Any evidence?
@@rubinsteinway Evidence that you're an idiot? Other than your post, not really.
Hi, I bought a vintage hmt kohinoor watch. I took the movement out to have a look. I didn't realise it ould be radioactive. Have I been exposed?
Every Radium product exposes you a bit. After reading the other comments, don’t sleep next to it. Take it out if your room.
I have a British WW2 military marching compass that puts out over 216,000cpm from the unprotected sighting indicator on the mirror.
Where did you buy your geiger counter if you dont mind?
Either fleaBay or Spamazon. Can't remember. This model is ubiquitous. Many better models have come out since but it still works ok for this purpose.
Is the radium on them dangerous to touch?
Touching in and of itself is not dangerous, however any time you touch it you risk getting particles of radium on your hands, spreading them around your home, or possibly even ingesting them by touching your mouth or face. The primary danger from smallish amounts of radium is accidental ingestion or inhalation.
@@hugeshows Thank you, that puts me at ease at my periodic table collection. Also, That watch was VERY spicy!
@@Jesus_paid_it_all Yes it was a bit "spicy" wasn't it? That dial at the end of the video particularly. Also, radium does offgas a small amount of radon into the surroundings, so keep that in mind when storing it.
@@hugeshows You just earned a subscriber! Its hard to think about the radium girls though with these, it's hard to explain, but your holding something that slowly killed its painter... Its especially hard to think about the fact that these could of been painted by Marquerite Carlough or Grace Fryer.
Crazy people wonder why I get cancer
Could any of those be tritium lume and there for setting off the beta reading gieger counter more so than the radium lume watches?
The only way to know for sure is to do gamma spectrum analysis on each sample, but based on the era in which those pieces came from, it's almost certainly radium. I have yet to find a vintage tritium piece that registers at all on this particular (cheap) Geiger counter.
@@hugeshows what do you think a 1966 westclox wrist watch would have on it.
@@IPRANKTheFool Probably nothing active if you are sure of the date. Pretty sure they were done with radioluminesce by then, but test to be sure.
@@hugeshows what cheap detector would show things like strontium, promethium, and tritium all lumenesences used after radium.
all those wrist watches had lume on dials?
And the last one, the hot one, had lume?
Yes, specifically radium lume. While common on watches prior to the 1960s, it is not used anymore.
Your hands didn't do much as Radium's decay ist mostly Alpha. Your hands are in paper. Alpha particles don't pass paper.
Lots of gamma emitters in the radium decay chain.
I think radium was the best decision in (well many not watch making since it's on your wrist), but clockmaking
Yes while it was dangerous to the painters, i just find radioluminescence and the fact that these things glowed indefinitely without ever being exposed to light, fascinating
Have you ever seen scintillations with your eye?
They look pretty neat, and besides, the amount of radiation exposure you'd get from having a clock around isn't that high, as long as you don't sleep next to it
And ontop of everything else, the potassium 40 in our body probably emits more radiation than some of those dials,
Its estimated that the average human body emits 300,000 to around 500,000 counts per minute worth of gamma just from the potassium 40 in our bodies alone
(Of course, most of it escapes our bodies, but it's just a reference)
Thank god for this comment. I literally placed my clock on a table near my bed. You saved my body.
I'm so afraid. I'll never look at a watch again.
Did youtube eat my comment?
Sometimes it does that. Very annoying.
yes and ur next to be eaten
The radium ate your comment
@@BrothArabianHSHS The radium illuminated your comment, now I can read it.
@@bigpig9562 YAAAAY OH GOODNESS MY JAW’S FALLING OFFF BEAHAHAHAH
Why aren't you wearing some kind of protective gloves sir?
Decent question. Basically, that stuff isn't going to go through my skin as a powder, and I washed my hands immediately after this video and wiped the whole area down with a damp cloth which I then disposed of. The biggest risk I took was not wearing a respirator.
That really isn't that much though, those are historical items and you shouldn't throw them away just because of a little radiation, for comparisons sake,
It's estimated that the average human body emits 300,000 to 500,000 counts per minute worth of radiation just from the potassium 40 we have in our bodies alone
Besides have you ever seen scintillations in person?
They're beautiful and the entire field of radioluminescence is just fascinating really
Yeah, but that's an apples-to-bananas comparison, if you'll pardon the joke. The radiation from potassium-40 isn't as strong as the radiation from radium, nor will it be concentrated in one location in the body in the way ingested radium would be. I'm hardly an expert on that subject though. As I said in the video, most of the hazard comes from ingestion of radium rather than exposure to its rays, but it also decays into other radioactive isotopes which are bad to ingest as well. All radium dials give off some microscopic amounts of dust that you simply don't want in your lungs or saliva. Since cancer takes years or decades to develop, nobody really knows how dangerous the exposure is and at what levels. It's a game of probabilities, and you want to purchase as few tickets as possible.