How We Got 600% HEAT PUMP EFFICIENCY With NO INSULATION!
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- čas přidán 20. 08. 2024
- We didn't think it was possible to get a COP of 6 in the winter until we did it. In this video Adam explains how!
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One thing i have learnt in my 60 years is that if you do not know more than the "professionals" you while get screwed.
For this reason a canal like yours is extremely important , especially when the average bloke is changing to a completely new technology.
There while always be those who claim that the new tec is garbage , but most of that is down to incompetence ;-)
Awesome! The data sheet of the heat pump I have, which is probably few years old tech, doesn't even have a condition listed that achieves 5.9 COP. Looks like the most efficient heat pump models are R-290 units in the 5kW size or so. Can't get those in the US but at least have a relatively modern unit that should be much cheaper to run than an oil boiler. I'm jealous of that performance, nice job!
Cool (or rather warm). Those are the type of radiators we have with our heat pump system. To touch they do not feel that warm (which for those "not in the know") seems odd. But, place hand above top of radiator and you can clearly feel the convection hear rising. Mark.
Additionally, you could install fans (e.g. ClimateBooster, HeatFan, SpeedComfort) to boost convection and work with an even lower supply temperature using the same radiators.
@@Soepsliert interesting, will investigate
Love the 'Golden Eye' on the N64. The only reason I still have my N64. :D Great video as well.. ;)
In a 1950s house, just moved, we will be in touch soon but this is great news. Roof being done real soon!
Thanks for a great video, I have experienced the benefits of really getting on top of insulation myself.
We used a combination of products taking up only 95mm thickness, the difference when installed meant the bedroom warmed up by 2 degrees overnight first night we used end of September. I think your approach to understanding a subject like me, is that you can’t have too much relevant information .
Can you do similar monitoring for Dec, Jan & Feb please.
Edit, I see that you will be doing follow ups during winter.👍👍
I have a 10 year old house, insulated walls and windows, took out a condenser boiler, average gas bill for 3 months before Heat source fitted 450 , after the electric bill went from a few hundred to thousands yes thousands as I live on the coast and the constant chilled wind just stopped the dam thing working, just had a new gas boiler put in , what I did notice was the oversized rads I had to have fitted now heated the room so quick the gas boiler was hardly on, gas boilers and oversized rads are the way forward
Thanks for another great video. It was interesting to hear in an earlier video that when looking at SCOP it is biased towards the winter as that is when the heat pump is more used.
Still when I look at specs for air to water heat pumps which give a specific SCOP for a specific flow temperature and out door temperature (e.g. Vaillant state their 12kw model at -5C outdoor can achieve an output of 10.8kw with a 55C flow temperature and a SCOP of 3.63). I guess I struggle to see how that applies to real life.
1: What are the assumptions made when a manufacturer states performance like that
2: How does that apply to a real life situation - Can you infer that if a system has been properly installed and never has to generate a flow temperature more than 55C then the SCOP will never be lower than 3.63?
3: Do these sort of quotes for SCOP assume weather compensation?
Thank you for all your videos
Scop refers to seasonal heating season 6.5 months, if you just use a COP it will be different from moment to moment, it's a better way of judging what the machine can do (its more real world).
Pumps should not need to go above 55 as long as the rads are sized correctly (Correction Factor) and the pipework can carry enough flow rate.
SCOP can only be worked out after the completed season end of October to mid-April, at some times the COP will be terrible, during startup and in very bad weather, then excellent on better days. Thats why we get a seasonal average.
They absolutely include weather comp, it would be inefficient without it.
Agree more detailed performance data from the manufactures would be realy useful. ( & fewer glossy photos of warm people in show homes) .
For the confused, improving insulation will not improve the CoP, the CoP is purely a measurement of how efficiently the heat pump is working, however if improved insulation means you can reduce the flow temperature/compensation curve then that should improve your CoP
It will. We will be able to run at lower temperatures and scop will increase further.
👍👍🙌🙌 always learning…
@heat geek that’s literally what he said lol
@@Etacovda63 yes I missread sorry both!!
Yes! Disrupt the system, love it.
Interesting to see this as it challenges the 'Fabric First' principle. Perhaps not for removing draughts, but for elemental upgrades not being the 'be all and end all'.
Love this. Look forward to seeing how this all goes. Are we not better off insulating properly first though?
Yes. This is an experiment to challenge convention
@@HeatGeek Also I guess it's good in a way to do this experiment
My dad for instance is VERY wary of loft insulation in particular, because he's had it done via a grant before and it just left mould
The grant chasers also don't last very long and it's quite difficult to pursue
Meanwhile, I'm very pro insulation, and I can't get any form of grants so I have to carefully look into which company is the best bet for that.
Loft insulation in my parent's house has been entirely removed because of dodgy insulation contractors
Seems to me that you could have high cop value, like here, with poor insulation, but if you insulated then the overall running costs would come down.
You could have low cop with good insulation, which could cost the same to run as high cop with poor insulation - the 2 things seem to be mostly independent of each other
Can you share your control strategy in more detail? Would be really helpful to replicate. Thanks
Yer would be interested in if we had change this setting on the user settings or is this installer only setting and can you make a average heat pump much more efficient just by changing settings? Thanks
If you are in a very wet area please do not fill the cavity on old properties with anything that can become slowly saturated.
Hi guys, I live less than a mile from your office, I've got your Vito Ops manager coming to see me next week. My current gas heating/insulation is dreadful, I want to improve everything and install a heat pump. If you want to use me as another real life case study feel free to get in touch! Thanks, love the channel, couldn't believe you were so close after I'd watched half your channel 😂
How is your new installation going - was it worth it? We moved in to our converted barn 9 years ago (bought from a previous owner who didn't really live in it). It has an ECODAN ASHP for underfloor heating and hot water. It is expensive to run and gives nothing back. I have turned off the heating and replaced it with 3 Everett stoves, which are really good. Although the hot water is set to 24hrs it is always cold, so we have to repeatedly use the boost button (up to 3 times) to heat water for washing up etc. I have really struggled to find anyone to offer a service, the original installers have gone. I have recently contacted a company I saw on a recommendation of our local face book page who wants £400 plus vat and extra if the glycol needs topping up. Luckily I have a gas Aga (aims programmable) which help to heat the property; gas central heating would be preferable but with the cost to convert and net zero agenda this is not a possibility. I am so frustrated!!
Might be interesting to see the cost difference between heating with the pump vs heating with a combi boiler.
czcams.com/video/D8pvXDk_KAA/video.html
At todays prices gas is 9p per kw and electric is 45p so electric heating needs a cop of 5 to match the value of gas if you looked at only the fuel cost and not at the installation cost or the environmental costs. Also because gas can quickly get the property up to temp you do not have to run it 24/7 when you are not home, although that is much more complex to put a value on, and not quite as simple as it sounds because heating does gain a small cop bump when run low for 24/7 vs running at higher wattages. But obviously turning off during low or no need has fuel savings which gas is better placed to capitalise on... Heat pumps are not as efficient when the property is cold and the pump needs to run at a higher delta t to achieve a comfortable temp in a reasonable amount of time (or just wear an extra jumper for 3/4 hrs whilst the heat pump gets the property back up to temp..
@@alphabuilders. Very good point, there are those that will argue that keeping the heating on all day is more economical. Simple maths says otherwise.
So you need to size your heating system to heat the house in the time you use it. Whether it is gas or heat pump is not the issue.
But isn’t the CoP best when the radiators are cold? So as it warms the house over a shorter period it will still be efficient at least to start off.
Now it also depends on the building fabric, a heavy or lightweight, poorly insulated or well insulated.
The ideal is probably well insulated with a heavy - high thermal mass, internal structure. Then heat during the periods of cheap rate electricity.
Good insulation doesn't make a heat pump more efficient, it just means it uses less energy to heat the dwelling!
A better insulated house simply keeps the heat inside where you want it for longer...
That’s what I would assume. The lower the return temperature the more efficient.
Or more likely it is irrelevant.
But still getting such a high efficiency is impressive. Sure way cheaper than gas at current prices.
Hi just checked mine today and if the controller is accurate it says I have used 17.1kwh of power and produced 101kwh of heat that's nearly cop of 6 at 5.5 degrees ambient. House is at 20 degrees. Who said you can't heat old houses with a heat pump. It's running at a flow temp of 35 degrees to keep house at 20. We'll chuffed best thing I done getting rid of oil boiler! Your videos have been a great help. Thanks
@Vicki hi its a samsung ehs it is accurate on power absorbed as I have an electric meter on it as per mcs requirements. It's the kwh of heat I can't verify. Everyone told me an ashp in my house wouldn't work but it works fine even at these low flow temps.
Could you do a video on the Mixergy tank please? Thinking of installing one (along with an ASHP, Solar PV & Eddi) and would be great to know what you think of them.
Hi Heat Geek, I have a question... I've set my condensing boiler to 40C and increased the size of the rads in some rooms to compensate. The house now maintains 20c fine. Is this a good empirical method of assessing heat pump suitability?
Yes
Excellent question! I'm trying the same thing with UFH as well as rads.
When using ground source heat pumps, is there a temperature cut off point? Ie if there was too much heat pulled from the ground or other source, would this negatively impact the efficiency due to the refrigerants used?
If not could you combine waste water heat extraction with the heat pump, reducing the required amount of land you'd need to use and reuse more of the energy you've created. Significantly reducing outlaying cost and making this more accessible to people with less land.
I would love to chat about this with someone in the know.
Very interesting, I have a Georgian townhouse that I’m renovating and may be ASHP is an option after all.. discounted before as it’s always suggested you need double glazing etc
COP > 1 is a bigger deal than people think.
COP > 1 from a cold sink to a hot sink for thermal potential energy means that one day a method will be found for electric potential energy.
The instant we figure out how to creat electric potential energy with the same efficiency that a heat pump creates thermal potential energy, the energy crisis will be over.
I really enjoy your informative videos. Sooooo regarding this video, please help me understand the physics of how the HP COP relates to any given insulation scenario all other variables held constant. Please thank you.
When you increase insulation you can run at a lower flow temp which will increase scop.
@@HeatGeek which flow temp are you running now?
Why the obsession with COP??? It’s not about COP, it’s about minimising your energy intake whilst maintaining a decent level of comfort indoors. A high cop doesn’t necessarily indicate that. You could get a high cop by having very poor insulation because it’s easier to pump energy into a leaky building than into a well insulated one. And that’s all cop is… a measure of how easily you can pump energy from one place to another.
Hello, what setback and target temps are you using and how are they scheduled?
Yer be interested to see more info on setting and how it was achieved
Have you done any videos on solutions like thermal storage (Tepeo, Sunamp, Caldera etc) for those that cannot fit heat pumps ?
I would like to know too?
Thanks again all!
What I would like to know is why can’t we use swimming pool heat pumps (the all season units) rather than the over priced “house HP”.
I understand they may not reach higher than 40c but the efficiency is massive on them up to 25 COP.
By using a swimming unit with a heat exchanger this should do the job better than most purpose HP units.
The worse your insulation, the higher your SCOP will be, assuming you can still heat adequately with a low flow temperature, because your balance point temperature will be higher i.e. a larger proportion of your annual heating load will be when it's milder outside and hence the COP higher. A house with a really low heating load will have that load concentrated on the coldest days.
The problem is the education of system designers. Still a real gamble get the wrong company and you'll be paying for it for the next ten years. Great videos as always.
Yes hopefully more and more will do the heat geek course
I’m concerned about the environmental damage caused by f gases. I understand there are alternatives that can be used. Could you do a video on where the industry is at with this issue?
If heat pumps do take over gas eventually, I foresee this being an issue that the industry does eventually get round to tackling. Does it not make sense to get on with it now?
Thanks
He's using R290 which is pure propane. It's a hydrocarbon, not an f gas.
I have 300mm loft insulation and 60mm cavity wall insulation that’s carbon bonded bead. My house is a 1950’s 4 bed semi. All new double glazing throughout now as well. Now it’s time to get an up to date EPC done. Anyone now where the best place to get an EPC done would be? I’m told they cost around £40-£50.
So it may be better in some cases, to just invest in some bigger radiators instead of insulation. Just to try to maximize scop, instead of lowering heat loss right?
No insulation means less energy AND higher efficiency. Insulation first.
@@HeatGeek well, but why did you not add loft insulation first then, instead you changed radiators? I missunderstood the video then.
My idea was, that it would be cheaper to heat 15 kW heat loss house with 4.5 scop system instead of 12 kW heat loss house with 2.5. Scop system.
Or am I wrong?
@@HonzaZalabak we have in all the properties we install in. Ours as all of our stuff is an experiment. Plus I thought it was 200mm
@@HeatGeek thank you for taking your time to reply to my comment. I am just very curious about heat pumps and heating systems in general at the moment.
Maybe my idea was not completly wrong, but maybe the catch is, that the lower your heat loss is the less warm water in radiators you usually need. So generally you get better efficiency.
Plus the cheepest energy is the one you dont need to produce.
I wonder what SCOP is going to be in this case
@@HeatGeek did you upgrade the pipework size when you upgraded the radiators?
I think the main question is, what did you use to get that N64 working on the big screen?
Have you done a video showing how to set up the compensation curve for an Ecodan please - various plumbers I have had in the house have said not to use it - I am not very technical, but I need to get my heating costs down.
This is from a heat source calculator for a house of my age , For every sq ft of living space, you need about 30 BTU of heating output. That means, for example, that for a 1,000 sq ft home, you would require a 30,000 BTU heat pump (that’s a 2.5-ton heat pump)., so my heat source pump for my house is 60000 but with a weight of 5 tonnes, so how is that going over my roof then
You certainly don't need a new well insulated house for a heatpump to work or make sense. I own larger timber framed house from 1732 in New England where mid winter nights are regularly -10c or colder. We have an air-to-air heatpump that keeps indoor temps at 20c down to around -12c. We have a backup furnace that will kick on below that, but ultimately that's generally only running a few hours on cold nights in mid winter.
Our loft insulation is basically what you showed here, whatever fit in between the joists. We do thankfully have some blow in cavity insulation, but our exterior walls are thinner than modern homes and aren't air sealed, so its still far from being well insulated.
Granted if we lived in an area with gas service that would almost certainly be cheaper, but in our semi rural town the only fossil fuel choices are heating oil or propane.
Just wanted to mention that if you were to paint those radiators terracotta you would get more btu's of output from them.
Sure, or black
@HeatGeek the emoncms Link doesn't work anymore - might be worth updating to the heatpumpmonitor URL?
A heat pump can create all the heat you need…but if your emitters are insufficient in surface area then you’re restricted in getting it out into the environment. I’ve been telling my customers this for years. Design is key to performance
Heat pumps= bigger radiators
@@danielwebb2773 or just appropriate ones
Insufficient in surface area? Doesn't that mean too small?
@@danielwebb2773 so you agree with me?
I have heard that you need bigger radiators with ASHP systems and thought that was what you were implying
Summer temps you've got down south just now Fella lol
The temperature is in the graph. Overlaid over other heat pumps were still looking at a late 4 or 5 scop
The issue with these though is unless you have solar panels running them they are basically as expensive as a combination boiler but double to treble the purchase price . Who has 20k to fit a system ?
Your COP values are very impressive, partly explained by your low flow temperatures. However, your building seems to have an extremely low heat loss, despite the lack of insulation. Using the figures from 30th November, your heat pump generated 54 kWh and consumed 12kWh giving a COP of 4.5. The internal temperature never dropped below 20 deg C with an average external temperature of around 6 deg C (difference = 14). The average heat loss during this day was 54/24 = 2.25 kW which gives a value of 160 W for the heat loss per degree difference between internal temperature and outside temperature. This seems very low for an uninsulated house (mine is 450 W). Having said that, I doubt if many ASHP owners get a COP of 4.5 when the outside temperature is 6 deg C, however low their flow temperature. How are you achieving this? No buffer tank for one thing probably.
No buffer tank. And importantly, quality pure advanced weather compensation. R290 helps with scops too!
meh, my brother has a SCOP of almost 7. Water/Water heatpump. And is actually very normal for newbuild houses here right now. But many countries are far behind probably. It's funny to see how to try to catch up. I know many people with electricity + heating bills of around 0 Euro. My little brother last year has 3 euro bill for the whole year for Electricity + Heating + Cooling too.
I agree with your calculations mikeheap8823. Not being able to survey the property I still don't believe the heat efficiency that has been achieved. Obviously as I have not been to this property but on the video walk around I have done many heat loss calculations on similar houses and cannot see how this installation will provide a 600% efficiency. The most I have achieved is 400-450. Please provide more info on the size of heat pump and total heat loss.PS you are not the UK's lending experts in renewables; somebody else is. I'm not that boastful!!
I have this crazy idea of mounting the air water heatpump INSIDE a glasshouse (170m3). Used only for heating I wonder what COP would that achieve! Also if it would actually work (air flow,/humidity wise). Do you think I could get close to 9 COP? Especially if I optimize the heating during the day (max solar insulation)
No-one else seems to have talked about this, or you. Can you tell me the diameter of your heating system pipes in this building? Would having smaller/larger ones make a big difference to your results?
I wonder what will happen after you get the insulation fixed. Is there any risk of the Vaillant being oversized and not able to throttle down enough?
I am guessing it will need enough radiator and underfloor heat surface and volume, but what does a big unit do if heat loss is very very low? (lets say just 1kW at -7 degrees)
I"m guessing also that you're mainly heating the office in the daytime - so you don't have the problem of lower evening/overnight temperatures to contend with. A lot of domestic systems will be working hard early in the morning and from early evening to midnight when the outside temperatures are lower - so perhaps the COP would be likely to be lower? Or are you leaving the system on 24 hours a day?
We have it on from 6am to 10pm. You can see yhe property temperature in the graph is constantly between 20 at night and 22 5 during day.
@@HeatGeek Great! impressive. I live in a draughty old Victorian house and have noticed big improvements in efficiency after swapping old radiators for modern ones and installing a modulating thermostat...sadly haven't got the money to be able to go for a full heat pump conversion. we need the government to incentivise all this much better...
If you increase insulation remember you have to improve ventilation. If so put the outdraft against the outside unit. Energy recovery. SMe goes for shower drain Water lots of energy loss there.
Correct, every modern newbuild house has a ventilation system with heat recovery. It does have some maintenance to replace the filter once in a while though. It will keep the heat inside and refreshes the air.
How many rooms/radiators are you running of this heatpump? Have you got buffer cylinder?
So, come on, lets be honest, you know and I know and everyone else who did physics knows, it's not more than 100% efficient. That's why they don't call it that they call it GOP.
They are not 100% efficient, far from it. The compressor et. al. is quite wasteful, as compressors can be. Just because it moves 5 times more heat than the power it's consuming, does not make it 600% efficient. It did not create that heat. It just moved it.
It was fiscally 600% efficient as we show here
czcams.com/video/ODbkT3-THaU/video.html
The comparison is generaly made against a resistive heater that is assumed 100% efficient at transferring electrical energy to heat energy. Since a heat pump, as you correctly state, only moves heat it can therefore be far more efficient at heat transfer than a purely resitive heater.
I'm kind of with you, as a physics pedant, but effiency seems to cut through more quickly than going through thermodynamic theory of heat engines and carnot efficiency etc - though understanding of this is key to realising why flow temperature is so important. Fwiw my heat pump seems to run 40-45% efficient compared with the carnot ideal - which isn't bad when you look at steam engines etc
Guys, here in Bulgaria we have COP of 9999% with temperatures of 13,5 - we just dont need heating because of good insulation.....Thank you sharing your feed!
A COP of 6 and it's not insulated 😲😲😲😲😲 .... cant wait!!!
You understand the CoP is not directly affected by insulation. Improved insulation may mean the heat pump may cycle more, reducing the CoP.
@@edc1569 I thought improving insulation allowed heat pumps to run at lower flow temps in the house and prevent the customer complaining that their feeling too cold because of the fabric of the house…
It’s a function of flow temperature and the outside air temperature. Big radiators help a lot with that as firstly they allow for a much larger surface area to convect heat into the rooms. Secondly that larger heat flow from the rads keeps the flow temps low helping the heat pump’s efficiency.
With better insulation the flow temps can be even lower and the pump should run even slower if it can modulate low enough. That will in turn lower the total running cost. Also, if they would dial down the room stat a bit it might help - at the moment they’re roasting the place at 22-23C.
Forget all the “efficiency” figures (calculated how?) gas is cheaper. Heat pumps only produce background heat and certainly can’t give you hot water. You will need an electric immersion heater and hot water tank. Far and away the best answer is a modern gas combi boiler. Until electricity prices get close to gas this is a non starter and don’t forget the years it will take to recoup the outlay, if ever.
To answer your question it’s calculated by dividing the heat generated in kWh by the heat produced in kWh. This makes it about half the price for heating with a gas bouler
Great video! What did changing the weather compensation curve from 0.8 to 0.6 mean in terms of flow temperature?
I figured that the flow temperature at 0°C outside changed from at 47°C (0.8) to around 38°C (0.6). At the moment the outside temperature is about 12°C, so the flow temp should be about 28°C (curve 0.6) or 30°C (curve 0.8) so very little difference. The difference becomes larger at lower outside temperatures. I would love to see a video with snow on the ground, what will the flow temperatures and COP be then?
Sure. But the only REALLY important thing is the average over the heating season because that's what the bill is..
@@HeatGeek I suppose per-season efficiency becomes more interesting in a hybrid setup, where you may want to use the heat pump for most of the year and switch to oil / gas when it's very cold outside.
Not bad 💪 my Vaillant arotherm plus has a scop of 5.3
Very good! What size?
@@HeatGeek 5kw and a curve of 0.35
Why does the amount of insulation effect cop? I would of thought it would just effect total energy usage which is a very different thing?
Sorry if I missed it in the video but is this the 7kw model? Also how many square meters is the property? If understanding the video and looking at the stats you had 3-3.5 last winter and the bigger rads has bumped the cop up to 5-6? Looks good, I have a similar age property if you want to do more experiments on my house then happy to participate :-) Appreciate all homes are different, but imagine this wasn't your office, how much would this have cost after the 5k government offer? Thanks.
I’m looking for my new build . Now is the question should I take a heat pump or a hybrid heat pump . And why . Is the set up both good ? Is the one cheaper ?
I would like to see some details of your OpenEnergy monitoring equipment. Measuring energy input is easy, just needs a Current Transformer on the live feed to the heat pump, but how are you measuring the heat produced?
Mass flow rate.flow and return woth flow meter. Very simple. Look for our mass flow rate video
@@HeatGeek many thanks, will do! I was wondering if this technique can be used to also monitor an aircon air2air heat pump...but clearly a straightforward in-line flow meter couldnt be used to measure the refrigerant flow rate, perhaps an ultrasonic flow meter...
Nice work! Did you do anything special (calculations etc) in emoncms to get from the inputs to feeds or is it just logging to feeds? btw, have you installed fans on the radiators?
Thanks Arjen! All just logging to feeds and conversion of power to kWh, that's all then picked up in the heat pump dashboard (we set this up for Adam)
@@trystanlea thanks! I'll build something like it when we have our heat pump installed next month. And, (for years already!) what a fabulous project! Thanks for all the effort!
Once it's insulated properly it might benifit from a lower capacity heat pump to keep it running near its maximum.
Yes but there isn't a lower capacity hp unfortunately
@@HeatGeek 4kW mitsubishi QUHZ!
@@jeanforthewin Panasonic do a 3kw heat pump. KIT-ADC03JE5C.
That's probably the 3.5kw Vaillant already installed
What was the cost of the installation and also the running cost in £ compared to your previous system for most customers efficiency really means cost
Did you say what temp you had the thermostat set? In other words was the place a realistic temp of say 21.
Follow the link.. you can see the property is perninently at 20-23c
Really interesting, so would having very oversized radiators give better efficiencies or does it mean you can install a lower powered heat pump?
Looking at replacing a radiator in my living room now and maybe upgrading the boiler in a few years and debating on heat pumps vs boilers. So if I oversize the radiator now will this help from the efficiencies point of view? Basically can a radiator be too big?
No ot can never be too big!! As big as pos!
Super interesting stuff, what was the heat loss calc for the building?
My Arotherm 11kwh current flow rate is 1000 litres per hour, I was advised to get it increased to 1700 litres per hour, what are your thoughts?
@HeatGeek no new data showing for over three months?
Is the open energy monitor still working?
Yea
The open energy monitor is asking for a username & password@@HeatGeek
Have you done a video on biomass boiler or even pellet stoves for heating
Do you have stats on how much potential output the old radiators had, vs the new ones?
Interesting your links show a heat output of 11.2kwh for 2.7kwh input .. if that 11.2 was the equiv of the gas calc and gas to electric is 3.5-4x cost .. the overall monetary saving is negligible .. surely .... or am I missing something key here
Goldeneye in the office (Y) We are electric only, On economy-7 tariff. Two high-heat retention storage heaters, one in the living room and one on the upstairs landing. Hot-water tank is immersion heated. Loft insulation done . Is a heat pump installation going to be incredibly expensive to replace this heating system as new pipework and radiators will need to be run? Also illegible for the grant I'm assuming.
What are your lowest temperature in winter?
Seems like its quite warm and perfectly suited for a heatpump. Im recently looking into it but it would be viable only for using when outisde temperatures are above 5c, since i alredy have gas that is not too expensive, and since heatpump wouldnt make sense for -15c anyways
We were - 8 last week. Cop them we 2.5
For listed solid walled single glazed Victorian buildings with only loft insulation would it be possible utilise an air source heat pump?
2:35 N64 FTW!
can we get or make temperature more hight by using Heat pump ??
Well it's easy to get this results then UK is warm. I would like to see numbers starting from -10 C to -25 C
Hi Adam. Again great video !!
Questions: is your system being helped by solar ? I assime it does. Because 5.9 is above any HP specs, right ?
What is the COP for your Vaillant HP, from their specs, at the avg Nov temps?
The last one: what is the min output kW for the HP?
Keep the videos “flowing” 😊
The solar is not included in the metering. The meter only measures what the heat pump produces so no. Infact solar would decrease our acerage cop as the heat pump would perform better on those days.
Additionally we have now turned off the solar so we can measure more accurately.
What does the 0.6 for the weather compensation mean please? I'm aware of how to set the compensation curve, but I don't understand what a single number represent.
How did you get emonhp to work with heatpumpmonitor. I don't see all these nice fancy charts like on here. Octopus Energy fitted my Open Energy Monitor but it's not set up properly I don't think so I cannot see any of the costs / savings the heat pump is producing.
Best to contact them directly. They’re an amazing company and very helpful
So according to your live feed you are using about 30Kw in electric per week on heating. At say 38p per Kw = £11.50 per week to heat your building. Is this correct ish?
Great Graph at 2m40 ... What is happening between the heat pump runs? is the circulation pump still going . or is it just resting? Does it just restart once the flow water has cooled , or are you timing the heat pump to come on every 50 mins or so, according to the heat need cacluated from weather outside?
I'm running a 7kW Arotherm plus on a modern house with underfloor heating. My ASHP has a fence 1 metre in front of the fan. My combined (DHW + heating) SCOP since installation 15 months ago is 4.4 which is good. However, I have recently started measuring the air temperature going into the intake as I suspected its recycling chilled air, and sure enough I'm seeing temperature drops of 2⁰C+ when it's running. I can't move the fence, and I don't know whether moving the ASHP to give greater space in front of the pump would be worth the cost.
Would you consider running an experiment with your ASHP to demonstrate the recycling of chilled air when a barrier is placed in front of the pump? You could show the significance of keeping the area in front of the pump clear with a movable fence panel or similar barrier.
I'm irritated with Vaillant as the ASHP has been fitted according to the space requirements in their documentation (as I understand it), but it's clearly being affected by the fence. Thanks for reading!
Why are rads still rated at dt50 and dt70 when you should be running dt35 or less really to cope with the new 55deg flow temps required
It makes finding rads more hassle than it needs to be!
It's been thos was forever. Means rad manufacturers can state the absolute max output
@@HeatGeek indeed! Any pointers to good efficient rad manufacturers as can't run multiple rads in each room and want to avoid 600x2000 k2 in a load of rooms :)
@@Howdydoody76435 why 600x2000k2? Why not fit a 700x1400k2 or a 700x900k3 to make it smaller with equal outputs?
Aluminium radiators output more than steel also allowing you to downsize more of emitter size
@@bampot2241 honestly was a bit of a joke. I'm restricted in a lot of places to 500 high as windows get in the way. Also 500x1600 are incredibly cheap at screwfix any size up or down are alot more. I have 2 kitchen "designer" rads I should replace need about 1kwh at -2.2 current ones give out maybe 600 will be running 45c mwt with 20c room. The Mrs doesn't want ugly white panel rads
Suppliers are starting to openly spec ∆t50/40/30 now. Shame most heating guys still don't have a clue what it means.
Great simple video, love it.
We have a similar 7kw arotherm. Just checked the working figure which vaillant elude to being cop. It's reading 7.1 for heating for November so far and 4.2 for dwh. Seem too good to be true. Although have tuned it carefully to get there.
If your well insulated and/or have underfloor heating it's probably correct.
50% insulated . Lots of thermal mass, mid terrace and basement with ufh . Rads in the rest. And super warm November!
@@zlmdragon. thanks. I have measure the actual electrical usage and it does under report about 50-60watts consistently when running. But as the running power varies between 500 and 1500 watts normally the percentage error is not too bad. But it annoying they don't give true figures. Like estate agents 'measuring' floor space the error always favors the measurer!
@@zlmdragon. absolutely. But at these figures I'm happy even with a 10% error. It's still way out performs our gas boiler which was the point. They clearly could include the pump and electronics consumption. Just the dishonesty of the marketing world. 😞
Thank you for doing this. Very interesting experiment. Looking at your live feed why does the heating cycle rapidly on some days like Dec 11 compared to others like Nov 29th?
It's not cycling.. its defrosting.. and it's rapid but its running a minimum of 45 mins to an hour if you zoom in
Can you tell me if you use a buffer tank alongside the 28mm or 22mm hidden pipework and is it just the trvs that control the heat out of each radiator relevant to the heating curve or does the room thermostat control the maximum heat or is it best practice just to rely on trvs.
Thank you
It's all well and good to make a video on this but surely when you price to install a ASHP its good practice to change the radiators at the same time, This is simple heating engineer logic. The same as with condensing boilers. The real issue is that the government £5000 doesn't scratch the sides of installing an ashp and updating the system to make it efficient. I went to a brand new install this week and the first room I went it had a incorrectly sized radiator. Those of us who work and advise daily on heating systems know that most heat pumps are installed and sold by muppets. The same with boilers and anything else to that matter. We don't have enough skilled engineers to go around and the title of this video is a bit click bait which doesnt help our cause
I can't agree it's good practice to change the radiators when pricing an ASHP install. If the existing radiators are suitable, don't change them! Do the calculations to either prove that they are suitable, or that they are not. The UK has had rules-of-thumb being used to design inefficient heating systems for far too long. Stop it.
@@tlangdon12 well obviously if the radiators are suitable, you wouldn't change them. I dont understand why you would even mention that?
I have just been studying your data on Emoncms it looks like your heat pump is cycling quite a bit, I would think if you can stop that it would be even more efficient. Thanks for the video I love your channel.
They are 45 min cycles. It's all good.
How would you reduce cycling ?Just with a anti cycling delay? Or physical changes such as larger buffer?
@@joewentworth7856 a volumiser, hysteresis, control practices of customer and anti cycle delay yes
Get a big buffertank. Also useful for boosts when PV’s are up.
@Brian B that would lower efficiency in our opinion. We'd prefer more batteries for extra pv then multiply through hp
My personal plan to decarbonisation is to follow PassivHaus / the 2000 watt society ethos of things
My plan is :
Reinforce my flat roof
Get more solar panels
Make things air tight
MVHR installation
Install triple glazing
Upgrade pipes
Upgrade radiators
Get an induction cooker
Heat pump water storage + heat pump right at the very end, to get the best COP
The way I see it, is almost all the above have an ROI. I don't expect an ROI on an induction cooker / heat pump but it's good to get that anyway if there is one
The rationale for doing those right at the very end, is because hopefully I'll have a bit of spare cash to do that, and even IF there's a price hit to leccy prices like they are now, I should be somewhat insulated, to use the pun
If I had the cash, I'd buy some land, make a PassivHaus premium plus house and get a ground source heat pump
But that's only if I win the lottery lol
so do you just put bigger radiators in?,,is that it?anyone?
Why aren't we using heat pumps to concentrate and convert this latent heat of water vapor into electricity? If we have a COP of more than 400% this is a very viable solution to renewable energy extraction. anywhere you have temperatures above 70 degrees daily and high humidity levels near a body of water, there is abundant free energy. I have been working on this with aircompression systems and impulse turbines myself. Water vapor is more than 1000 times more contributing factor as a greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide. This should be a priority. Not home heating. Electrical generation.
High thanks for the videos but could you help me to explain the usage relating to electricity usage,on the live feed for say the 29th November it shows that you used (I think) 12.746 kilowatts that day is this correct or was it in one hour of usage sorry I am a bit confused regarding kilowatt hours and has the solar thermal contributed a lot to the reduction in running costs of an ashp and I also wonder if it would ever be able to put enough insulation in a 70s bungalow so as to make it into a passive home where no heating is required
Will adding more insulation not actually drop efficiency? I'm finding with our Mitsubishi that with low flow temps it tends to cycle more as heat loss is too low to keep the flow/return delta large enough. It's on less often, so less overall energy use, but the efficiency is less.
I expect with radiators that big it just means will run at 35 C through depths of winter - so better efficiency - though what I find is need some room temp control to turn off for longer periods in mild weather (ecodan wireless control on auto-adapt mode does this)
It should increase efficiency
How will the system cope with prolonged -20 ish temps which we had a 3 or 4 years ago when the beast from the east hit?
It depends on the refrigerant the heat pump uses, a system designed for cold weather should have no problem with -20.
Hi I was thinking of doing my acs gas course so you think this is worth it in 2023 or should I study something else. At the moment I work as a plumber
I suggest doing the heat geek course and working for a heat pump installation firm
How is the cop calculated?
Hi how much does the solar thermal collector tubes contribute to the scop and are the new rads double or even treble fin rads as I see you have a flow temperature of just below 30
That’s a long wall. I’ve seen other videos with radiators filling walls floor to ceiling in average houses. These supposedly needed after house has been insulated above average.