Did Lizzy *Really* Love Mr Darcy? Regency Era Companionate Marriage in Pride and Prejudice Analysis
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- čas přidán 18. 06. 2024
- The first 1,000 people to use this link will get a 1 month free trial of Skillshare: skl.sh/elliedashwood01211 ✨ Have you ever wondered if Lizzy was really in love with Mr. Darcy by the end of Pride and Prejudice? Or really was she in it for his beautiful grounds at Pemberley? In this video, we discuss the 19th-century concept of romance and companionate marriage. And we look at the major factors a relationship needed to succeed and if Jane Austen upheld romantic ideals in novels.
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Baird, R. (2004). Mistress of the house: Great ladies and grand houses, 1670-1830. London: Phoenix.
The Enlightenment. British Library. (n.d.). Retrieved January 4, 2022, from www.bl.uk/restoration-18th-ce...
Gerard, J. (1994). Country House Life: Family and Servants, 1815-1914. Oxford: Basil Blackwell Scientific Publications.
Gregory, J. (1808). Letters on the Improvement of the Mind Addressed to a Lady and a Father's Legacy to His Daughters. United Kingdom: Brettell and Company.
Hasa. (2016, July 28). Difference between love and affection: Definition, characteristics and qualities. Pediaa.Com. Retrieved January 4, 2022, from pediaa.com/difference-between...
Johnson, S. (1827). A Dictionary of the English Language: In which the Words are Deduced from Their Originals .... (n.p.): Longman, rees, orme.
Perkin, J. (2016). Women and Marriage in Nineteenth-Century England. London: Routledge.
Stone, L. H. (1995). The family, sex and marriage in England: 1500-1800. New York: Harper & Row.
Stone, L. (2002). Road to divorce: England 1530-1987. Oxford: Oxford University Press.
WILKES, W. (1741). A Letter of Genteel and Moral Advice to a Young Lady ... The second edition. Ireland: Oli. Nelson.
Wrightson, K. (2006, January). Mutualities and obligations: changing social relationships in early modern England. In PROCEEDINGS-BRITISH ACADEMY (Vol. 139, p. 157). OXFORD UNIVERSITY PRESS INC..
Vickery, A., & Folio Society (London, England). (2006). The gentleman's daughter: Women's lives in Georgian England. London: Folio Society.
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🕰 Watching Guide
00:00 Did Lizzy Really Love Mr. Darcy? [Intro]
00:39 Did they care about love in the 1800s?
01:44 Companionate Marriage in the 18th and 19th centuries
03:00 Why Ideas Were Changing
07:29 Elizabeth and Mr Darcy Relationship Analysis
08:40 Esteem in Pride and Prejudice
12:57 Compatibility of Temper and Disposition
16:22 Best Friends for Life
19:41 Is affection love?
23:35 So did Elizabeth really love Darcy?
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I get annoyed when people claim that Lizzy only wanted Darcy for his house. She knew he was very wealthy before seeing it and that didn't stop her from rejecting his first proposal. She was no gold-digger.
Yeah, the reason she was impressed with his home was because the housekeeper spoke so warmly about him. As did the rest of the people around the area. You can judge a lot about a person by how well they treat those who are «below» them in the social hierarcy. Darcy obviously treated people well, and was loved by the comunity.
@@MissCaraMint yes, she loved how he cared for his people
@@lulubelle4850 yes, plenty of times she praises how deeply he cares for those he holds dear. She values how civil and gentle he is towards her after the rejection. She expected him to be upset but rather than that he was more attentive towards her AND her family. She saw that he was doing his best to change and she appreciated it. She also valued how concerned he was for her well-being when she received the letter informing Lydia's elopement, even without him going after Wickham, she was grateful that he cared for her emotions when that happened.
And it also shows those people have no understanding of Lizzie’s sense of humour or basic reading comprehension. Austen even spelled it out for them that Lizzie was joking when she told Jane her attachment started at her first seeing Pemberley and still they fail to understand it.
her opinion of him definitely changed at that point 😌 but i am going to give her the benefit of the doubt and say she gave him a second chance after he handled lydia and wickham
Elizabeth’s might have been a more rational love, but I think the reason we consider Pride and Prejudice so romantic today is because of Darcy. Where Elizabeth’s was logical, Darcy’s love was consuming and passionate. It is made clear by Darcy’s line: “I cannot fix on the hour, or the spot, or the look or the words, which laid the foundation. It is too long ago. I was in the middle before I knew that I had begun.” It’s not to say Elizabeth’s more rational approach wasn’t true or romantic either, but I think the balance and comparison between two distinct ways that people fall in love is one reason that makes the book such a powerful commentary on love, romance, and marriage
It’s definitely a winning combination if there’s both present
Marriage requires a lot of work on yourself and as a couple, in order to invest all that effort we do need to be passionate about the person. And if we’re not mostly compatible from the start (in core beliefs and desires for life) even a lot of effort won’t help
I mean, he was rich, he could afford to be consuming and passionate. He also had a comfortable estate and the ability to drag Elizabeth's family out of the muck. The Bennett girl's couldn't afford to let love be "consuming and passionate" in the same way because their situation was too tenuous.
Her behavior when he visits Longbourn again after Lydia's wedding is very telling. She's preoccupied with him, anxious to figure out his feelings for her and actively suffering because she can't advance their relation and understanding in her own terms. That is very telling of a strong passion and not just a "rational love" in my opinion.
I feel like having respect, compatibility and being best friends with each other is still a great foundation for romantic love and marriage! We should all listen to Jane Austen’s advice, she was quite the expert after all ;)
She did have some excellent advice on the topic!
I just wish she had got to experience a romantic relationship herself :'(
@@monmothma3358 she did a few times, but amounted to nowhere
@@swymaj02 Well, it did: she enjoyed it for a while. Only because she never got married, doesn't mean she never loved or was loved
.
@@adrianamatei7372 but who did she? If I am missing someone but the only person she loved rejected her, if I am not wrong. (Tom Lefroy)
I'm going to tell my husband he has esteemable qualities and watch him swoon from my flattery.
😂 That is definitely a swoon worth line!!! 😂
You go girl!! 😅
Lol I just tried this and got a "ahhhh... thank you" 🤣🤣🤣
I think they did love each other because 1. Mr.Darcy admitted it. 2.We know that only the deepest love would persuade Elizabeth into matrimony…
🧐 Excellent points
And we know that Darcy would be perfectly honest, because disguise of every sort is his abhorrence.
I once saw a post on Tumblr that said that an ideal marriage is "a lifelong sleepover with your best friend," and honestly, I've always felt that way, too.
I remember a passage from Pride and Prejudice, after Lydia's elopement, in which Elizabeth is reflecting on Darcy, and how she could have born Lydia's disgrace better if she hadn't known Darcy, and that it would have "spared her one sleepless night out of two". I don't think Elizabeth would be losing sleep over Darcy if she wasn't in love with him.
Yes, I remember that. It was after she knew his character better. She was seing how he treated her uncle and aunt. They were socially lower than her own parents but they were well educated and well behaved. Darcy had no problem with them and treated them as equals, further showing that his earlier problems with her family were more to do with lack of decorum than with lower social status. I dare say she was starting to entertain the thought of his affections remaining unchanged or that perhaps they could be rekindled because now she had a different understanding of his personality. She was enjoying his attentions for the first time. And then Lydia elopes and she's certain that now Darcy will never consider her again. It's like stealing someone's cake just when they are about to take a bite out of it.
It is easy to understand Elizabeth's dislike of Darcy in the beginning of the novel. He is arrogant. When someone mentions Elizabeth to him he says she is "tolerable". Elizabeth expresses her feelings about it when she says, "I could forgive his pride if he had not mortified mine." Also, Darcy's comment, "I am not in the mood to take what other men have spurned" is another example of his foot in mouth disease. Darcy has trouble expressing himself politely. He is almost gruff. But he is high minded and willing to own up to his mistakes, and those qualities changed the picture I had of him.
@@georgepalmer5497.
I heard ‘ESTEEM’ and immediately conjured up an image of Kate Winslet as Marianne Dashwood saying: “Esteem him? Like him? Use these insipid words again and I shall leave the room this instant.” 😂
That scene from S&S was originally in this video’s script! 😂 But I had to cut so much out because of timing. 😩😂
@@EllieDashwood Oh no! You should’ve added it.
@@EllieDashwood oh no :( now i need the full version!!! :D
We’re those words of Marianne in the novel (She was rather out there!) , or was a more modern, milder, meaning projected onto Kate’s attitude?
When I was in eighth grade sex ed class, a teacher said something that really stuck with me. She said that love isn't just a feeling, it's also a choice and an action. The longer I'm married, the more true this rings to me. I go in and out of infatuation with my husband but I always do my best to behave lovingly, and he does the same. We've been happy together for 17 years.
Nothing really changed: good marriage still needs mutual respect, romance, compatibility and financial grounds.
And that’s a big reason why we still love her books.
Yes!
People like to ignore that nowadays tho.
They think talk about finances is "not romantic" and respect is nothing in face of love.
@@joiceraiana Yes, I agree. When I first started reading Shakespeare, I was astonished that no one in his plays seemed to find any conflict between marrying for love and marrying for money - which was a big conflict in most Victorian novels I read. But I think Shakespeare was right to think you could have both. My great-grandmother used to quote the line from Gentlemen Prefer Blondes: 'It's just as easy to fall in love with a rich man as a poor one!' While meant to be funny, obviously, I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to be financially secure before starting married life with someone: the highest percentage of divorces occur for financial reasons, so we can't deny that practical considerations matter; we aren't purely emotional creatures! But at the same time I would NEVER think two people could be happy marrying JUST for financial reasons without an emotional connection: life and relationships require balance.
E and D actually did become friends, because Jane says that Georgiana learned from Elizabeth that you're allowed to rib your husband because you are equal. So I guess there was a lot of ribbing in that household, which is something close friends do with each other.
I think that might have taken awhile, though, because Austen does say that initially Lizzie was a little unhappy because Darcy "had not yet learned how to laugh at himself." Implying that he DOES learn how to laugh at himself, but not at first.
When you look at how the Bennett’s interact as a couple, then you see that Mr Bennett may at one time have been playful with Mrs Bennett to a similar degree, but because she didn’t have the same intellect it then fell into a routine where Mr Bennett ends up being an antagonist to Mrs Bennett. Elizabeth chose a partner she knew was at or just above her intellectual level, and being like her father, she looked for a best friend in her partner. In this case, because she chose well, it worked in her favour over time.
@@laurastephanieingram3114 Yes, I disagree with the people who say that Mr B is verbally abusive to Mrs B. I think he's trying to do with Mrs B exactly what Lizzie and Darcy end up doing with each other. The difference is that Lizzie and Darcy understand what's going on, while Mrs B does not.
Mr B is certainly somewhat callous to the fact that Mrs B does not understand and is not enjoying it, but I think it's from cluelessness, not malice.
My wife and I had almost a beat for beat relationship similar to Lizzy and Darcy. We hated each other when we first met due to...well our pride and prejudices. Like L&D we were constantly being forced into each other's company through friendly and social gatherings and - over time - we began to see there was more than what we first observed on the surface. We became "frenemies" for a period before that melted into true friendship and confidants. Eventually we realized...oh wait this is love...and we got married. 14 years later we are still married and still frenemies to an extent. ;)
That's so cute! Love that for both of you.
lol, I hope you always enjoy your differences, that they keep you both on your toes and fresh in surprising admiration of admirable qualities in each other!
A story straight out of Barbara Cartland! I love it. Thank you for sharing.
That's so cool! Thank you for sharing!
OMG please give me your blessing. I want this. Huhu. Pride and Prejudice has raised the bar for me. Although… if my love story is like this, then that means I’ll have a bad first impression of him.
"What about Love?" - cat instantly meows
That's love for me.
His timing was so perfect!!!! 😂😂😂 I wondered if anyone was going to notice his contribution.
I replayed it because I wasn't sure if I had just lost my mind and was imagining cats. 😂
A superb piece of comic timing. I wonder if you can train the cat to meow at different words, Ellie? :)
Sweet baby just wanted to be in the video!
Baby don't hurt me
The term "companionate marriage" reminds me of how Collins proposed, how he wanted to have a "companion."
For me, the love that Lizzy and Darcy have can kind of be overblown and I feel like a lot of Austen fans miss the point because they just think of sexy Colin Firth and how rich Darcy is.
Pride and Prejudice is a comedy of manners as well as a social commentary and a morality tale. Lizzy didn't just fall for Darcy because she saw how awesome Pemberley was, but because Darcy had the reputation of being a fair and loving landlord, treating everyone with kindness, decency, and respect. She had to learn that a person's moral character isn't just determined by how sociable and charming someone is. On Darcy's side of things, he had to learn to check his privilege and expand his generosity beyond his comfort zone. He had to learn that he was never entitled to Lizzy's love just because she was poor.
So yeah. I think that they legitimately love each other. Their marriage won't be perfect, but I think that as long as they openly communicate with each other, they'll be able to have a happy life together.
They do learn so much for each other in a very complex story! I think it would have been awesome if Jane Austen had written a sequel so we could see what their marriage had turned out like. 😂
Lizzie wasn't from a lower social class! Lizzie and Darcy are more or less equals (Darcy is slightly above Lizzie, but in the same class). Ellie actually has a video where she explains this very thing :)
@@harrietpotter649 same class maybe but from opposite sides within that class.
@@EllieDashwood She never wrote about married couples, at least not as main characters.
@@rebeccaholcombe9043 Darcy is very near the top of his class, Lizzie is hovering around the middle. She isn't poor; her parents could have saved adequate dowries for her and her sisters if they had thought ahead even a little.
I never understood the concept of "love at first sight", of course I have experienced strong attraction for people I had known for very little time but I always labelled it as " physical attraction" or maybe "curiosity", never " love". I agree that to truly love someone you need to know them, esteem them, trust them and appreciate their company. Also if I want to create a family with them I must be sure that we are great at working as a team, so that could mean we are "compatible" right?
That’s such a good point! I think maybe people just confuse attraction with love. I think movies definitely contribute to reinforce that sometimes. 😂
I have experienced both, separately. They exist. I still prefer getting to know someone before following up on either!
My grandparents were a product of a one sided love at first sight (Grandpa had to convince her to give him a chance), and at the end their relationship was so strong that when my grandma died of cancer my grandpa followed soon after. I've experienced similar situations that were non-romantic in meeting all my best friends. The way I would describe it is recognizing a soul and then following the normal getting to know you process to learn why they matter to you. At least, the real stuff. There's definitely lust at first sight which gives love at first sight a bad name.
My grandparents were a "love at first sight across a crowded room" couple. He was 25 and she was 18 so he had to do a lot of convincing to her father to be able to marry her. They were incredibly well-matched and had a very happy 54-year marriage until Grandpa passed away. Sixteen years later I caught a glimpse of my 18-year-old Grandma when she told me the story of how they met. Her face absolutely glowed while talking about him. The memory of that moment still makes me tear up.
I think love at first sight is more like you found someone to whom you clicked instantly and it actually works. Like you guys saw each other across the room, liked each other, talked and instantly clicked and it turnes out it works over time.
As a Marianne who married her Willoughby.. I'd say hold out for your Darcy at all costs. Love can only carry you so far though disrespect & heartbreak. It will change you.
Oh man, I’m so sorry. Did it end up a bit happier for you?
@@jaimicottrill2831 life is never so simple as a well written novel 😕
we are both in therapy and are on a journey of renewed commitment to one another but our relationship will never be the same.
We married so very young and with so much trauma and baggage that it's a wonder we made it as long as we did before the trainwreck.
@@InThisEssayIWill... good luck to you! Very rarely does life come neatly wrapped like novels.
Same…
A friend once said she thought people tend to marry the person they're dating when they're ready to get married. I don't know if this is what happened to you but I know, for many, there is truth in what she said.
When I was reading up material for my thesis, I feel like Jane Austen was the OG Pop Culture Cool Girl who was robbed of the Internet. We accept her as our Saviour. Her novels are basically video essays on contemporary culture of her time. She’s ahead of her time and of her time.
Funny, I kinda got the exact opposite impression, that the subjects she writes on (marriage, morality, etc) are so timeless that her wisdom will continue to be wisdom. And was wisdom even before her time.
I completely agree, I see Austen to be way too introverted to ever be the cool popular girl
I love how Austin brings out the effects parental drama has on the children.
Lizzy's love for Darcy was genuine & heartfelt. Had she been a gold-digger she would NOT have rejected Darcy's first proposal. She was wise intelligent yet loving. She liked Darcy from her heart once the mis understandings got cleared
It amazes me people, women especially, throwing around the word gold-digger as if beauty/youth has not been sought after by men. Should women get nothing in return?
Hierarchical Marriage: “Get married ‘coz you need Societal Validation.”
Companionate Marriage: “Marry your best friend, ‘coz why not?”
@kshamwhizzle Truth is stranger than fiction indeed.
@kshamwhizzle Good luck - maybe he just needs time to accept that you're asking because you really care about being with him? A lot of guys tend to think the girls they really respect are 'too good' for them, which leads to the aggravating situations in which a guy 'lets a girl go' for her own sake, and I'm thinking 'it's not going to do her any good if what she WANTS is to be with you; you'll make her more unhappy by leaving her for a 'better guy' she doesn't want to marry!' Hopefully your friend will come to understand this.
There’s a story missing from this thread.
TBH- as an historian from what I gathered on the subject, they rather thought of "love" slightly differently than we do now. The love of marriage is less passionate and romantic than its modern day counterpart, more down to earth, practical, and akin to a very close and warm friendship. Whereas romantic love, passionate love was the enemy of marriage, the kind of emotion that made people do silly things in the heat of the moment like have affairs or elope with unsuitable crushes, exactly because the emotions often left a person "crazy in love" and not able to make a sound judgement as another's suitability based on "esteem, compatibility, and friendship" that were the basis for the much healthier and longer lasting "love" of a better marriage in their view.
I'm not sure if they weren't right and we in modern times have messed up our concepts of love.
Kind of what I was thinking, I may be biased because I don't really experience the crazy passionate feelings people say love is. To me love always seems gentle, consistent, unflinching, honest, and caring. A steady fire in the fire place that warms you all night as opposed to the passionate blazes that are so intense they burn your house down, and before morning even dawns, all that's left is ashes. People who say that only passion is what real love is seems crazy to me. It seems so unstable and easily doomed to failure and unhappiness. Not that love is risk free but there's a difference between taking a risk and jumping out of a plane without a parachute.
I think one can (and should) have both! Obviously if you're forced to choose, a life companion is better than a passionate fling. But intense passion was the beginning of my (now) marriage! At first, my family and friends saw the match as shallow and misguided. But it was deep, and simply incompatible with their view of me. (This is something they have admitted to me several years later.) I developed a passionate crush on my husband because of an irresistible chemistry between us. We both quickly realized that our compatibility was deep. We look for ways to make each other happy every day, and we are a good team. We make each other laugh and we make the boring moments sexier, sillier, sweeter. I wish this level of happiness for everyone.
I have watched the women around me face the consequences of terrible choices in love. So maybe I learned to be repulsed by ill-mannered men, and incidentally fell for a kind person. But either way, I have a good life, and I didn't sacrifice passion for it.
@@Aelffwynn I think you misunderstand. It is about how we conceptualize the idea of "love" and which kind we consider "romantic" vs. marriage socially now and then.
Most people cannot retain that sort of intense passion forever, so sooner or later it either turns into something more akin to what they sought to begin with, or the feelings between people just cools- with divorce as a likely result. Perhaps the ideal would be something midway between our romantic idea of love and their practical idea of it.
But I am happy for you and your husband- that your marriage turned out happy and long.
Warm and friendship-like love is definitely the mature way to go. It’s so important that your actions come from a place of certainty rather than impulses and neurochemistry.
Something I have always loved about Elizabeth and Darcy's relationship is how they could name specific character traits they admired in each other. They could also point to specific instances of moral integrity and repentance. It made it such a realistic romance to me (excessive fortunes notwithstanding). It wasn't *just* what they felt about each other, after that first proposal. It became about what they knew about each other, which in turn fed their good feelings.
When I reconnected with my now husband, I decided to date him with the intention of eventual marriage. I chose to do that because, aside from how he makes me feel, I could see and name specific qualities of his and specific events that showed me his strength of character. And it really has been even more wonderful, emotional, and amazing than I imagined. The one thing it has never been is boring or lackluster.
I would find someone whose qualities I find superior, whose feelings are in unison with mine, and whose tastes are similar to mine, and then I would break up our engagement and wait for eight years until he returned after having earned a fortune at sea.
That is romance in one of its most advanced forms. 💕😂
Was this written by Anne Elliot by any chance? 😂 Hope you found your Captain Wentworth!
Recently I saw a celebrity kids post and I forget who it was but someone has a kid called Elliotte Anne.
Heehee.
Also during the Victorian Era the happy marriage of Queen Victoria and King Albert strongly influenced the new basis for being in love and friends with your marriage partner.
Prince Albert.
Yes, up until Queen Victoria, British subjects were used to their monarchs marrying purely for diplomatic reasons, not love, and openly flaunting their mistresses, while treating their royal wives like baby factories. Monarchs werent people you would choose as a role model. But with Victoria, British subjects actually had a monarch they could respect in her personal life --as well as her public life. She totally raised the standard of what a monarch could be, and what ordinary people could expect from royalty.
@@a24-45
Queen Victoria was against women having equal rights. Also, she was a horrid mother. No, I do not respect her.
@@a24-45
Also, she was treated like a baby making machine. Apparently, Prince Albert kept her knocked up so he could exert more power over the empire.
@@sophieruby9135 I am not surprised to hear that Victoria's parenting skills were poor; but they were probably typical of how the nobility as a whole parented; and I doubt she was any worse a parent than every other British monarch -- right up to the present day included. The British monarchy has a long sad history of misguided parenting.
As for her politics, she was a typical conservative, which was what you would expect for someone of her social class. ( though we can thank her conservatism for prompting her to reject a bill outlawing lesbianism - apparently she refused to sign the legislation because she didn't believe such an orientation existed LOL). However she can't be blamed for holding the nation's democratic progress back; the monarch is not supposed to be a political role.
What I think is worthy of respect is simply this -- that in regard to marriage, she was not a hypocrite. Unlike earlier monarchs who paid lip service to marital fidelity and morality overall. Victoria was the real deal, she didn't just talk the talk, she walked the walk in terms of her marriage vows. People appreciated that with Victoria, what you saw was what you got. I don't agree with her politics -- but then I don't agree with the politics of many public figures of today, let alone the outdated views of 150 years ago -- but I can appreciate what it meant in the C19th to, for once, have the throne occupied by a person of integrity.
I can't say what Lizzie feelings were because they change a lot in the novel. But it is very clear for me what are Mr Darcy feelings. He is in love in the way we understand love today: desire, sexual desire, anguish, need. The words he uses are full of passion: ardently, stop my suffering. Those are words of a lover not words of somebody who esteems a woman. The way he tells her that he is proposing her against every principle he has is the sign that he proposes no matter anything, he has to have her. I can't guess if later she can reciprocate so intense and hot love. What do you think?
I think you are spot on. What Lizzie has is admiration and respect, Darcy is fully in love.
Well, he's very good looking, so that helps. He adores her, he rescued her and her entire family from disgrace, he's smart (I've always fallen for intelligent men), and he's eminently trustworthy at the highest levels. I would crawl over broken glass for a man like that.
@@edennis8578 Me too. And his passion for her makes him the most desirable man.
@@asdabir oh yes.
She respects him and admires his qualities. She also starts to welcome and feel flattered by his attentions before Lydia elopes. This is something that will last, unlike whatever her parents felt for each other when they first married. She'll probably grow to love him even more. It doesn't need to be ardent/intense/burning/whatever to be considered love and to be considered successful.
This discussion reminds me of the character of Jo in "Little Women". It was presumed that she would never marry because her intellect didn't lend itself to a relationship with a man she couldn't hold in high esteem, wasn't compatible with in terms of personality. Jo was considered very much outside of social circles due to her independent nature and definitive dreams for her future. The delightful aspect of that series of books (Little Women and Little Men), was her finding a perfect husband in someone who was right in front of her all along.
That was forced though. Louisa may Alcott fought/tried to keep Jo single, but the writers had a married or dead rule for female characters. Her choice in a much older, not physically attractive man for Jo was to snub the female fans that felt they saw themselves in Jo and demanded for when she will end up with laurie (the book was originally released in two parts and the first ended with Megs marriage). I could be mistaken, but I think there's a louisa quote where she says she choose Jo's love interests precisely to disappoint people or because it made her laugh. Jo was based off louisa herself, and her real 3 sisters. Jo was supposed to stay single like louisa was (til death) after the book made her rich.
I was very young when I read "Little Women." I have never forgiven Louisa May Alcott for having Jo reject Laurie and marry that old professor. Yuck! I cried more about that and Laurie marrying that brat, Amy, more than I did the death of Beth. It's been almost 60 years and I still hate the end of that book. I read "Little Men" only because I hoped that somehow Jo and Laurie would get together. Disappointed again....
@@maheenm.k1015 Yeah, she copy pasted her dad with a German accent, which is why Laurie is a 3D character we all know and love, and most people don't know Her husband's first name. (I think it was Frederick)
More people today need to study the different types of love and marriage. I think a major cause of divorce is the two people not being on the same page about their feelings and expectations. People seem to always assume love means the same thing to everyone.
And “sex = love” is pushed on us, hard.
On a serious note, in 19th Century Colonial India, marriage was strategic and mostly for political strategy. However, Indian Social Reformers like Jyotiba Phule, Savitri Phule and Ishwar Chandra Vidyasagar (among many others) advocated for social reformation, especially in the role of women and children.
That’s so interesting!!!
Thank you for the insight! Your videos are very interesting! I just read Pride and Prejudice for school and fell in love with it, your content has been helping me better understand the context and the characters of the story! I also just wanted to add that I think another point towards Lizzy's genuine affection for Darcy is that she clearly does feel inclined toward him in a way, even while she hates him. She brings him up incessantly, obsesses over his flaws and interactions with others, teases him relentlessly... My interpretation was that, like Bingley and Jane (and potentially Darcy I guess), Lizzy was initially attracted to Darcy -- not just for his money but physically attracted. I think people are more likely to lash out/obsess over someone's opinions if they feel wronged by them *especially* if they like them. While she would likely never admit it to herself, I think, deep down, Lizzy was offended by his first comment of her being tolerable in part because a part of her really wanted his compliment and then a lot of her following interest in him stems from it.
Anyway sorry for that rant! I've been desperate for an outlet for my Pride and Prejudice opinions lol
Where Mr. And Mrs. Bennet are the perfect example of personalities clashing, Mr. And Lydia Wickam must be the one where esteem is lacking. And ironically, by that same logic, Charlotte will have a real chance at happiness, since she and Mr. Collins are of a similar disposition and might have esteem for one another.
I'm not entirely sure about Charlotte and Mr Collins... it's insinuated that Charlotte makes sure she and Mr Collins stay away from each other as much as possible - she encourages his gardening and taking long walks "for his health", and she set up her private parlour so that he would not want to sit in it, because he had no view of the road to Lady Catherine's. That sounds like they certainly have no friendship. Elizabeth even noticed that Charlotte was embarrassed by Mr Collins on a few occasions, even though she didn't say anything overtly, and I don't think you can really respect somebody who embarrasses you.
That's just my opinion though - others might see it differently
@@kiarona. I agree, Austen explicitly states , when Charlotte and Lizzy are talking about love, that Charlotte has a low opinion of men in general, that is why she can never be "romantic" as Charlotte says herself. I think Charlotte is doomed to becoming bitter and hard - because she believes she can manipulate and control Mr Collins, but he is too selfish, egocentric and patriarchal to ever compromise, or to ever put her needs ahead of his own. The only way she can keep him "content" is to give in to him on absolutely everything.
I think Charlotte will be happy because she had a realistic view of what she was getting into. She is not expecting love and she got the house she dreamed of. She appeared to be trying to find a way to live with Mr. Collins and have a safe place to live.
Sorry I have to disagree with you here. It expressly said that Charlotte accepted him out of the pure disinterested desire for an establishment. Which back then meant a home and a place of her own away from her parents. Basically there's a very good chance that Charlotte was possibly gay or at the very least asexual. She understood her role in society and picked someone who at the very minimum would not be abusive to her. He was too dumb for that. He was perfectly happy to be guided and counseled by his wife and that's exactly what she was capable of doing because her dad was just as big a dumb dumb as Mr Collins was. Jane Austen even hints at this by giving them both the first name william.
What Charlotte and Mr Collins marriage actually shows is how marrying for necessity can work out if you're careful about it. It's showing not an ideal relationship but an acceptable marriage that some girls would have to suck it up and take because Charlotte was 27. With the Napoleonic Wars raging the number of eligible men was diminishing as they were constantly getting killed in war. And poor Charlotte had to take what was available to her. Missed your Colin Society is specifically described by Charlotte as irksum (annoying) and that the stupidity by which he was favored by Nature prevented his courtship from having any charms that would make a woman wish for its continuance.
Basically she's saying he's a complete bumbling idiot but he's a harmless bumbling idiot and therefore she'll have him because that's what's available to her cuz she doesn't have the Dowry to get anyone better interested in her. It even says "at 27 without having ever been handsome she felt all the good luck of it." Meaning she knew that she had neither the cash nor the pretty face to get anything better and she was resigned to take a man who would eventually inherit longborn and she could go through the motions of daily life with a general expectation that he would not be stupid enough to be physically violent to her. As a clergyman he would have his reputation to protect so he would have no motivation to do that anyway.
I think a good marriage is possible, but unlikely. They would both have to make concessions that I doubt either would want to make.
You may not see this and it’s not entirely related to this video, but I’d love to see an in depth discussion of the custom of visiting big houses. When the Gardiner’s visit Pemberly, it’s clearly the custom to show unknown visitors around. Can you talk about when that custom started, how, why the owners of the house would want to show it, and who would be welcome etc?
I have some serious trust issues, so love at first sight has never been my ideal. So really like this idea of affection and companionship and compatibility.
Regarding the novels, we can READ it in Northanger Abbey, Catherine was obsessed with being a "Heroine" till she got her reality check.
Jane had a lot of fun with that one!
Love has been testified over time. Darcy's persistence in his love for Lizzy definitely helps him win over her heart. If a man stays single n is always by your side, gives you advice, condolence and encouragement at the time of adversity or danger, i believe no girl can decline his love n will love him sooner or later
Well. Over 31 years ago, I fell in love at first sight. We got married a year and and half later and it's still going strong. So, there's that.
HOWEVER, I met my husband in a situation that ensured we had interests and values in common, so there was already a basis for esteem and friendship, which have only grown in the intervening decades.
I didn't have love at first sight, I had fate at first kiss. I just KNEW he was the one as soon as our lips touched. 22 years together, nearly 18 years of marriage, and three teenaged sons later and it has transformed into something incredible.
Especially back in that time I'm married people kissing would have been social suicide so they did not have the advantage of that tool. Being able to kiss somebody and see your future with them is exactly what made me give up on one of my very early relationships because when I kissed him I literally watched him die. I knew that if I married him it would put him on a life path where he would be dead and I would be stuck raising at least two small children. I bailed the f*** out of that relationship so fast it's not even funny. He still died but many years after the date I saw it happen if I had stayed with him. He got 12 good years with the woman he did marry. His fate was still sealed but at least the children were older.
Knowing that I have this ability I know that I could not have made it back in Jane Austen's time where that tool was not available to me.
Interesting that you pointed out that Darcy & Elizabeth didn't have a deep friendship. That's a true and valid criticism, I haven't though of it before. It's certainly refreshing to hear a criticism of their relationship. Elizabeth says she loves Darcy at the end of the book, but Jane Austen also wrote some marriages where love grew afterwards, such as Marianne's.
Actually, I am happy to say I had a real life 20rh century companionate marriage. I respected my late husband Tim, we had complimentary personalities, we were very much in love *and* we were absolutely best friends. We had our ups and downs, but we were happy overall. We had less than 5 years together before he died nearly 27 years ago, but the memory of that amazing love and marriage lives with me still.
I definitely would say that estimable quality, good character, and a strong friendship are important to building love and affection. Since I believe love is a verb over a feeling and it is an action of what we do, having a friendship makes loving easier. Especially when passionate feelings can get clouded by day-to-day events like changing diapers, dealing with moody teenagers, illnesses, bills, etc. Sometimes that romantic feeling might disappear, but if you have affection, esteem, and strong friendship you have that bond. I speak from experience getting ready to celebrate 20 years of marriage this year, having faced loss of home and at one point hubby losing income briefly only to get a new path in careers. I have a chronic illness that prevents me from doing all that I would like, but having a best friend in my hubby makes everything absolutely perfect. This morning he ventured in the biting cold to get me a favorite cup of coffee before his meeting, that little thing brings comfort and little tears of happiness. He is my right hand and my rock when I am weak. So, love at first sight dwindles and sometimes lacks the ability to last a lifetime, friendship with my hubby has seen me to 20 years. I'll take friendship over love at first sight.
I'm actually quite skeptical about love at first sight, as odd as it my seem considering that my husband and I started dating the day after we met in a party where we made up. What I believe that exists is attraction at first sight but actual love comes with friendship, companionship, respect and compability. That's what has keep us together all those years. I'm not dismissing attraction, it has it's value but it's not love. The problem is that people tends to mistake them.
Congrats on 20 years.
Aww this was so nice to read. Glad to know you are aware of what you have. It’s a rare find.
My husband is my rock as well. He can make me fall in love with him all over again because of the little things he pays attention to. I hate the big romantic gestures in movies and books. Give me a man that helps around the house any day over bouquets of flowers and serenades.
Good for you! You found rock solid love. What you wrote is similar to my situation. I wouldn’t trade it for anything!
I loved the banter between Darcy and Lizzie! That's why he fell for her! She acted as his equal and didn't defer to him.
I think their relationship is that middle ground between “love at first sight” and the long-term “friendship to love” that we see in Austen’s other novels. I knew I loved my now husband after only 4 dates so it is possible.
I think one of the reasons I love Pride & Prejudice so much is because of how much I relate to Elizabeth. I think in the regency era (or even now) I would need to marry someone I look up to and respect, just like how Elizabeth needed that from Mr. Darcy.
I feel that ‘Esteem’ is basically playing a round of ‘Can you spot the Red Flag?’ 😂
I tell people that my fiance and I are friends before lovers, and that's why I love him because through life's downturns and difficulties I know that we can always fall back on friendship. Friendship, in my opinion, can outlast romantic love and is a solid foundation for romantic love to grow back because you can't have love without respect. Thanks Ellie!
Anne and Wentworth also had a previous friendship (and he still looks out for her even when he’s hurt and trying to make her jealous). Your point about friendship might be why Marianne’s marriage seems so out of place compared to Edward and Eleanor’s marriage, we don’t get to see the friendship really develop so it doesn’t have the same equal partner vibes
Marianne's turning point was when Brandon himself went to go get her mom when they thought she was dying. To be loved and cared for like that is pretty irresistable. She couldn't help but to slowly fall in love with him.
I've had this notion that falling in love with someone is a conscious decision. There is a moment when you think, this person, I'm going to fall in love with them. And then all your actions start heading towards that "goal," if you may. Love doesn't catch us by surprise. At least from my own experiences and from watching those around me. With my best friends, if I've been around them too much, I can pretty much predict which people they will fall in love with, just based on watching that "conscious decision" and changes in action of directing all of one's good will towards a specific person.
In the book, Marianne doesn't really fall in love with Brandon. The book is much more cruel to Marianne. She marries him, and he's not the faithless jerk that Willoughby is, but in the book she's settling for a "good match" rather than following her heart. Emma Thompson's screenplay makes it into a better story, because Brandon's a better, more interesting person than he is in the book, so Marianne does fall in love with him.
@@Cat_Woods I didn't read it at all as not falling in love, just a different type of love. Her first "love" (actually just an intense teenage crush) was all about passion and her feelings in the moment, and turns out she didn't even really know him and it was all superficial and not real. Knowing someone adores you and that you admire them and trust them and feel safe with them and can share a good life together is a pretty good basis for falling in love slowly, while steadily getting to know each other. It doesn't sound as hot as love at first sight but actually makes a much better relationship than one mainly based on passion.
@@Cat_Woods Alan Rickman was so great!
@@Cat_WoodsDidn’t Austen say that Marianne could never do anything by halves & so progressed from gratitude & liking to passionate love? Or something to that effect.
Lizzie learned, over time, to respect Darcy for his honesty and integrity. Love is based on respect. In our time, love is based on sexual prowess. Small wonder so many marriages fail! Read Alcott's Rose in Bloom where Rose says, for a marriage partner, "I must look up, not down". The Pennsylvania Dutch put it this way: "Kissin' don't last. Cookin' do."
Oh, I love this line! Thank you for giving me a new quote!
I really enjoy your videos. I'd love to see one on the role of companions for young unmarried women like the ones Georgiana and Lady Catherine's daughter had. It seems like a unique position that is similar to a governess but more of a friend than a tutor.
I don't believe in love at first sight. There's intrigue, lust, fascination at first sight. But to truly love a person I think you need to know them fairly well first.
Yes, I agree!
In modern times, women are not as financially dependent upon mates for survival. In Regency times, the ability to survive would have been a greater consideration.
What I really appreciate about your videos is that you always go back to the text for evidence! It’s inspired me to do the same in my own analyses of lit
“Marriage is a scene of delight.”, said every person who has a penchant for drama. 😂
👀
I recently finished a Pride & Prejudice re-read after binge watching all your videos. I have to say that I got SO much more out of this reading than in previous read-throughs. Thank you!
Now that I'm reading Northanger Abbey for the first time (I somehow missed this one), I would love a video about Bath society/ the Bath season similar to the Regency Era and Victorian era marriage season videos. I find it difficult to keep all the different rooms straight and understand the hierarchy of where you want to be seen the most to be fancy.
Thanks for all your hard work and great videos.
I would just like to compliment you on your fabulous talks. I am an historian. I appreciate the depth of your resesrch, your enthusiasm for your period, and the clarity of your explanations. Truly brilliant.
Another excellent video from you, Ellie. I will also add my voice to the chorus that found your cat's off-camera injection into the video adorable.
The lack of in-person development of Elizabeth and Darcy's friendship is rivaled by both main relationships in Sense and Sensibility, as Marianne spends most of the book fleeing from Brandon like he has the plague, while after the initial time at Norland Elinor and Edward are mostly kept apart except for a brief moment at Barton and a couple brief meetings in London when she knows that he's entangled with another.
As for me, I want a marriage built on a foundation of respect and friendship. Physical attractiveness fades as we age, so the foundation of a lasting relationship needs to be built on friendship and shared values and interests. I have not had many relationships in part because I am looking for that solid foundation. Like Elizabeth would do for Darcy, one thing that I'll mention is that I'd want a wife that can help draw me out in social situations, being someone who is an introvert for the most part I have a tendency in social settings to be off to the side observing and philosophizing.
I am so glad I discovered your channel! I have been binging your videos this past week! Your videos are so enjoyable and entertaining!! Thank you!
I think that two people can overcome differences in personality if they have shared values. My husband and I are really different, but we get along really well.
Thank you for putting references at the end of your videos! ❤️
😃😃😃
Love your vibe and aesthetic. Thank you for the content
That’s so sweet!!! Thanks so much for watching!!!
For some reason I ALWAYS see that you uploaded when I’m doing my skincare routine before bed, Im certainly not comparing however, thanks for being awesome pretty lady❤️
Gracias por los subtítulos en español, realmente disfruto tus videos. 🥰🌷
Hey Ellie!
I'm from Brazil and just wanna tell you that I love your videos! It's one of my favorites notifications. Keep up the awesome work 🥰
Awwww! Thank you! Hi to Brazil!!! 👋👋👋 I’m so glad you like the videos 😃😃😃😃
Thank you so much for sharing these awesome and insightful comments!
Kind regards,
Anna
I really liked how at the end of Emma she thinks of Mr. Knightley as a "partner" and "companion"
Great video Ellie! Definitely one of my favorites
Your videos are always so well thought out and researched. Thank you for all the hard work.
Aw! Thank you!!!
Thank you for sharing your knowledge. I absolutely adore Pride and Prejudice since I was a young girl. And I thoroughly enjoy listening to you expound on the book. You have added new meaning to the words. I can’t wait to reread the book again and take better notice of the words. Thank you!
this is so well researched/thought out and you know you JA so well, it makes my nerdy little heart very happy lol :)
Thank you for this great video
And for including your sources as I’m studying p&p for uni and the sources are super helpful
Great video!!! I think even now love is actually not well defined. It means different things to different people, and in different contexts, and there's no way to truly experience someone else's feelings so we're all approximating anyway. I love my husband and my parents and my close friends and my cats but my relationship with each of them is different. Even if you specify romantic love, its hard to really explain what is different about that, and our society does tend to put it on a pedestal above other kinds of love.
I just feel that Ellie just wants to write the sequel to ‘Pride and Prejudice’. I think the sequel should be a Sitcom 😂
It could be called Lizzie and Darcy. You could have episodes where Darcy rolls his eyes at Mrs. Bennett all the time. Bingley could pop in as jester of sorts.
There has been a modern side sequel written called Longbourne, the name of the Bennett's home ( can't remember the author and I am not at home to be able to get it for you ) also,there is the new side novel , The Other Bennett Sister and the novel taken from REAL diary entries from over the time of a young man's life from approximately aged 10 to a married man of the Jane Austen time, this novel ,is called Mr Darcy's Diary & side reads to Pride & Prejudiced . Sorry I am not able to give any of the Authors ( I do own the books but am away on holidays for a time)
I did read a P&P sequel about a decade ago I think it was called Pemberley it's supposed to be set 1-2 years after the end of P&P and the invented drama to give the plot something to do was that Lizzy & Darcy had no child yet while Lydia has produced 3 (the eldest of whom is 4 because who needs maths) Jane has 1 or 2 and so Lizzy thinks she's a failed wife and decides she should leave Darcy so he can marry a better, more fertile, wife. The fact that divorce and re-marriage isn't something that was feasible in Georgian England never seemed to enter the author's mind (I think there may have been legal provision for divorce based on desertion if the partner has been uncontactable for 10+ years). It was very much in the modern 'romance novel' style.
@@ElizabethJones-pv3sj that is very interesting. 'Longbourne' Is definitely a suitable mix with P&P and includes perspectives from the Bennett's house staff who like all good servants really did see most of what was going on for the families who employed them. I thoroughly enjoyed 'Mr Darcy's Diary ' and was gobsmacked to read on the last pages that it was then from a real Diary accidentally discovered just a few years back by an antiques assessor in a secret draw in a writing desk that had been sent in to be auctioned by very well known upper crust family. No one in the current family even knew about the secret draw and the furniture dated from . the Jane Austen era..The authenticated diaries tell the P&P story from the man's point of view.. it was at first thought that the 'diaries ( 5 books ) just HAD to be forgeries but they were authenticated to the correct era by walnut ink and the particular style of the books & bindings. The diaries just stop a couple of years after the man is married. When I first read it I thought oh what a good idea to write from Mr Darcy's point of view( so of the entries you could just shake him but it was typical of young wealthy men of the day. Some of their days were SO boring with NOTHING of real value to occupy them except a great fast ride in the park or a visit to a prostitute. Or their 'club' to gamble.. it is not until the very back of the book that there is an addendum that explains about the writing desk sent to auction and the discovery of the 5 leather bound diaries. Certainly made the novel all the more interesting. Some of the Diary entries are in a different font /script with often explanations at the bottom. So if the Diaries Real this seems to be the method of denoting copying. Unfortunately I am away from home so I am not able to give you the authors name but the author is apparently well known in another field but not a novelist usually. . Very interesting I think
@@ElizabethJones-pv3sj I have just googled for the authors . MR DARCY'S DIARY, By Maya Slater.is definitely the one I have read BUT there is also one of the same title by Amanda Grange. LONGBOURNE is by Jo Baker. THE OTHER BENNETT SISTER by Janice Hadlow ( I haven't read this one yet as is has just arrived at my book store .
Happy reading. The Maya Slater book was printed about 2007/8. I found mine 2nd hand
That was a really precise and therefore wonderful analysis! Thank you for the trouble!
I have not experienced "love at first sight" personally. With my husband it seemed that way for him when he saw me for the first time. However, my experience was that I became friends with him first before asking him out.
I think all of those points in finding a good spouse are still applicable today! We just maybe more overtly see passion as a fourth point to consider. But I believe all of those points are what make mine and my husband's marriage so successful. And I think some lack in those points have made some marriages I've seen struggle.
Thank you for the ad-clock! :D
Very Well done ❤️! Answered a lot of my questions!!! And I love your voice 🥰
Yay! I’m so glad it was helpful!!!
Something i look for is kindness. But something else that i look for is the ability to have a conversation about anything. Like Channing Tatum in shes the man. Having the ability to talk about cheese. Cos imo it is those little moments that make relationships. I definitely value companionship but it is needed with some romance!
I love the cheese scene.
@@adorabell4253 “do you like cheese 🧀?😉😂 my favourites Gouda..”
Haha, I love She’s the Man, it's problematic but it had its charm.
Btw I’m so happy you’re delving into such cool things on Skillshare. Keep it up!
Aw! Thank you!!!!
Maybe it is the influence of "Sense and Sensibility", but I respectfully differ to a degree about Austen's use of "affection" rather than passion or romantic love. Lizzy's trajectory is like Marianne's: she is taken with the quintessential romantic figure - handsome, down on his luck, brooding and charming, disdainful of the more stolid, uptight, and less vulnerable man. Darcy and Col. Brandon are actually better suited in all three ways, but have to earn the affection. This is not passionate romance, yet it is built on a better foundation. P.S. Hope you have found love and genuine affection or are on the way to it.
watching your videos make me wanna watch the movies all over again!!
Calm, funny , patient, thoughtful , practical and kind
It must have been truly difficult for young women in those times to really get a bead on a person being presented to them as a candidate for marriage. They were extremely sheltered, taught very little about how the opposite sex think, and were frequently at the mercy of their mercenary parents. It’s a wonder divorce didn’t start much earlier. I think we could learn something from them as, if I’m not mistaken, they allowed (usually) for an extended period of courting with observation, and word of mouth (gossip?) about their prospectives, to determine suitability before diving in head first like so many do today. I think Jane Austen did a masterful job of pointing out the superior ways to evaluate good character and steadiness in a prospective mate.
Ok i've been listening to you while i'm doing some commission work. But I just looked up and noticed your outfit and make up match your background. And while we wouldn't say they're necessarily your colors but they do bring out red notes in your eyes. And you definitely suit being a red eyed vampire. I am here for this look. And your eyes are enchanting.
Love the video and I love that your eye shadow matches the cherry tree in the background!
Lovely subject again!
I'm a student and a trader ..,thank you soo much for describing such crucial points soo deeply and with great flexibility.
Estimable qualities. Love your work!
This was a great video!
Your videos cheer me up❤️❤️
May I use this space to say that I love your videos? They are... well, awesome!
Back to this video: First of all, it is interesting to fit the Charlotte-Collins marriage into the scheme of various types of marriages. From Charlotte's viewpoint, this is definitely a hierarchical marriage - she is giving herself to Collins (and to Lady Catherine, who dominates him) in return for independence from her family, financial security and her own household to run as she likes. But from Mr. Collins perspective... "My dear Charlotte and I have but one mind and one way of thinking. There is in everything a most remarkable resemblance of character and ideas between us. We seem to have been designed for each other." He definitely sees it (or deludes himself into seeing it) as a companionate marriage!
Secondly, as to your question about our preferences: I think it is a case of age as well as temperament. When I was younger, I definitely fell for the Willoughbys and Wickhams! When I was older, I had a good friend whom I eventually fell in love with (I admit, partly out of gratitude that he fell in love with me), more Robert Martin than Darcy. Our friends called it "Love at third sight". And 40 years later we are still happily married and in love.
Amazing video. 💕❣️💖
Love your analysis ❤️
I love your videos 💖
Awwww! Thank you!
Great video! I would love a video about caroline and Darcy’s relationship. Some people think they were best buds and others think he was barely tolerating her. What are your thoughts? Maybe a video on non-romantic relationships between men and women during this era.
She was his best friend’s sister who was trying to attract him. He was mildly put off but generally seemed to treat her like background, something that comes along with his friend whether he likes it or not.
And he did not, or not much.
Esteemable qualities for certain. Love at first sight is great and all but not the basis for an enduring relationship. BTW, your cat mimicking you @19:40 (ish) made me laugh.
I loved this. I'm rereading S&S and Marianne mocks Eleanor for 'esteeming' Edward. But the big question is always will Marianne be happy with Col. Brandon, but I see now that they will have a companionate marriage. You could do a whole video on those relationships. There is also interesting inheritances in S&S compared to P&P.
editing Ellie is my favorite
Great video Ellie! Also, at around 19:41 it sounds like your cat is repeating you and saying "Love" in the background lol
Definitely esteemable. Affection can grow, but if he doesn't have qualities I admire and respect, then it'll end in tears.