Statistics Reveals Unfair Height Bias in One Olympic Event
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- čas přidán 5. 09. 2024
- Here we dive into a statistical analysis of height for one major olympic event, the hurdles. Our data and analysis reveals a significant height bias seen in the men's 110 m hurdles that is not found in the equivalent women's event. Here we explore with math, why these differences exist and how they could be remedied.
The data we used for our hurdler's heights came from the top 50 elite hurdlers, men and women, of which we could find their heights online.
Best Hurdler Country: • Which Country Produces...
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This video was a pleasant surprise! I've been preaching this for a couple of decades. I ran my first hurdle race at age 41 in a Master's track competition. The height and spacing is changed for Master's track on a decade age group basis. At age 40-49, the height went down to 39", but it was the spacing that prevented me from taking the proper 3 steps except for the first 3 or 4 hurdles. Then you must switch to an extra step (if you can jump on the "wrong" leg), or most commonly, two extra steps for a five step pattern.
At age 50, the hurdles went down to 36" (yea, but not a big deal), but the spacing went down to 8.5 meters - basically we ran the women's hurdles (100 m instead of 110 m). I was able to run the whole flight for a season or two, then the age factor drove me back to mixing 3, 4, and sometimes 5 steps. The elite Master's hurdlers could keep doing it in three strides until about their mid-fifties - by 58 years old nobody (even ex-Olympians) could do the whole flight in three steps. At the front of the age group, the hurdles are a blast to run. By the back of the age group, the fun is gone.
I didn't feel too put out about it as a decathlete, I wasn't as technical as the good hurdlers or as flexible or as fast. But the random powers that be could easily have just re-scheduled the height changes to mid-decade groups, and still protected the dominance of the best hurdlers.
As a USATF track official (retired), I can say any of the variable height/distance proposals is a non-starter. Bucking hurdles is a big burden in a track meet, and track meets run long enough as it is. Hurdlers are failed sprinters, and sprinters are pole vaulters that are afraid of heights, lol..
As I commented above, I'm in your boat. The hardest time is the older few years of an age group. Compensating for extra steps between ruins your speed. I'm still a senior official, might even know you. I was in some of those discussions about moving hurdle spacings but nothing has changed except the M60 start to first hurdle distance and changing women's age groups over decades.
I did run the 110 highs in hs as fast as i could sprint the distance, understanding the minimization of vertical height gain. But since i loved BEST the FEELING of being in the air, took Far Greater pleasure in ballet, launching into air on skis and snowboards, and off waves on windsurfers.
Call it the Dog and Butterfly Effect, but it remained FAR MORE satisfying than any mere interhuman competition, until, of course, too much orthopedic surgery and damage grounded me.
I STILL recommend these over any mere competition.
How are sprinters pole vaulters?
A mistake to correct: at 6:44, the graphs suggest that sprinters are taller than hurdlers, but the transcript states that hurdlers are taller than sprinters.
Ah yes thank you! We labeled them incorrectly, thank you for pointing that out!
@@MathTheWorld maybe add this to video description? Came down to check this but found only in the comments
@@MathTheWorld Echoing the point from @maththeworld would be nice to see a pinned correction, or even something in the description perhaps
@@MathTheWorld yeah i noticed this too, would be good to put a disclaimer somewhere
Thanks I was so confused
Fantastic analysis. Is there a write up on this somewhere?
Another example of bias introduced by rules is figure skating. Almost a century prior to 1991 a core part of figure skating competitions was, well, skating figures. They were called compulsory figures. Figures were a core of this sport and what gave it a name. Success in figures depends mainly on the amount and quality of your practice regardless of your height or weight.
Figures were abolished in 1991 as they didn't sell well on TV. Main discipline now was subjective short/free skating - performing elements with music. Due to the scandals, a new judging system, IJS, was introduced in 2006, which placed scores to many elements progressively. "Easy" elements (like step sequence or single jumps) costs less, "hard" elements (like quad jumps) costs more. What could go wrong?
Obviously, Goodhart's effects kicked in, people started chasing points i.e. "hard elements" aka jumps. Few people care about working on actual skating skills nowadays. You win competitions by performing more multirotational jumps.
And you win in multi-rotational jumps by having smaller body, all other things being equal. Which created a bias towards pre-puberty girls being champions. Fifteen years old skater can't win over herself at 20 y.o - despite being 5 years more skillfull - because her body will grow up a bit and won't allow for the same performance anymore.
Naturally that exacerbated bias towards early specialisation and rush to learn triple and quadruple jumps before puberty. That led to a massive increase of overuse injuries in single skaters. But it also created this bias in self-selection for the sport - everyone who is not a pre-puberty girl is not considred a candidate for this sport anymore. International federation responded by increasing the age of "Senior" skaters from 15 to 17, but it doesn't solve the major reason of why the age/gender distribution for figure skating now looks like female-only gaussian with a mean at 8-9 y.o.
What I want to emphasize here is that "rotation in the air" which now brings most of the scores and introduced this bias is not even related to skill of figure skating. It was an unintentional consequence of a rule change. The age/gender distribution for this sport used to be very different for the past century until figures were abolished.
I completely agree..... in the past 20-ish years especially, figure skating has basically become jumping on ice. There are still aesthetic elements, but any skater worth their salt knows where the real points are- quads and triple axel, because that's what the judging system rewards. Art is subjective but number of rotations is a fixed value.
This basically means 16 year-olds with often subpar skating skills are doing triples 5 hours a day because their joints can still take it, and better skater who are often more fun to watch aren't even on the podium.
I see some hope for change with the point increase of Malinin's quad axel not being as high as the point increase for Trusova's quads..... the board is slowly showing that that jumps are not a cheat code. But there's still a lot to be done.
Increasing the senior season age further will basically make it so that junior skater (at least female ones) will be coring higher points than the adults, which would be quite embarrassing for FS as a sport.
@@x-act I think/hope that the raising of the age limit changes the pressure on girls to keep their prepuberty bodies and train jumps all day long and thus preventing unecessary injury (through combination of overworking the bodies and malnutrition to keep weight low) and prolonging their careers. Considering that the 'quad revolution' was initiated by one training camp of which one skater was tested positive for heart medication (enhancing endurance in training thus more jumps in training and more consistency in competition) I do have my hopes up. Especially with seeing other female skaters reducing their quads and giving their bodies time and air to breath (the American girls for example also the japanese girls - they still go for triple axels, but there have been quite a few female skaters by now jumping triple axels for years in long careers).
Womens bodies reach their maximum muscel power in their early twenties and in a lot of sports that is the time they reach their full potential/making it to the top. With how figure skating worked the last decade for girls and women a lot of careers ended even before that. If the technic is based on light prepuberty bodies than you have to get those young girls to train as much as possible and keep body weight low/prolong prepuberty. Than you have just a few seasons until this concept doesnt work anymore. Since the career is going to be short anyways you dont have to think about a healthy body developement. If you have enough girls you also dont hve to care about injuries, a few will make it somehow with injuries for a few years until the body gives up. But hey, by that time it is over anyways because of puberty and since there are enough girls someone else will fill the spot for the next few years. But with the change of age for the seniors this system wont work anymore. So maybe future generations wont over do jump training during their teens and take on a better technic for quads or develop the other parts of their skates more.
Another possibility would be weight requirements like in Ski jumping for example. Just remembering the last few years especially in the ladys field I wouldent be surprised about one or two being severly anorexic. What some even mentioned in interviews about their diets is more than shocking. Of course athletes always try to optimize their bodies, but a lot of disciplines have weight/bmi requirements and I personally think the organisations do have the responsibilities to protect athletes especially minors from harm. The isu could have done a better job in the past decade. But changing the age limit is a good step at least.
@divan0 We have not written this up anywhere. Which is strange, because I am a professor, and that is what we do!
I had no idea about the changes in figure skating! That hits close to home with our video. I wonder if I can track down some data. There must be some out there since you mentioned the gaussian with a mean of 8-9 years old. It would make a great video and it would be good to share that knowledge more broadly.
@@MathTheWorld yet, your video probably generated more impact than the blog post. It would be good to have it published somehwere as a follow-up, for sure.
Yeah, figure skating is f...ked up, and nobody truly understands why and how it happened. I'm trying to get to the bottom of the problem, studying it as a system. A lot of half-baked data and research, a lot of insights, but still a lot of work to do. I'm also planning to do a post and CZcams channel on all skating-related topics, and your video is a great inspiration. Stuff like that can make meaningful changes in sports if communicated properly within the epistemic community of that sport.
I'd be happy to chat more on this topic via email.
I was a sprinter at the beginning of highschool in WA State. After the first month, the sprint coach told me to go to hurdles with the reason being "Just trust me." I went on to the state championships in both hurdles events my senior year, standing at 6'3" on the podium.
That is awesome! I am so impressed. Your coach really understood the connection between stature and hurdles.
This isn’t about sport, but statistics also has evidence that a larger hand span makes piano playing much easier. (That’s why PASK has been advocating for narrow-sized piano keyboards for over 20 years)
Another great example of how our bodies give advantages to different activities! Hand size is important in a lot of instruments. Guitar also being one.
@@MathTheWorld But unlike other instruments like violin, guitar, or cello, which come in fractional sizes, the piano is one-size-fits-all, and it’s even an XL size. Over 85% of females and 25% of males have hands too small for the conventional keyboard. That’s why PASK has been advocating for fractional sized piano keyboards.
@@MathTheWorld
One of the reasons the women distributions are different is because women have more variations in leg lengths.
And also their hurdles are shorter relatively obviously.
But their body torso leg ratios can be more different.
@@stevebentley4516thats why they also analyze footage, among other things, in the video
Sounds like a hole in the market.
The athletes adjust the hurdles idea is kinda nice! It would make for horrorible logistics, but a greater competition.
I love this idea. As a spectator, you wouldn't be sure of the result until the very last hurdle. Thrilling
I think the best of both worlds would be to add different hurdle heights plus the ability to move the hurdles. They just have to add two lines in each hurdle position that would be the space the athletes can position their hurdles in.
It feels pretty fair to me, like you wouldn't try to expect gymnasts to use an unadjustable apparatus so why hurdles?
@@JemimaDoesASMRbecause one sport having adjustable apparatus wouldnt necessarily make the sport more competitive nor entertaining, while for the other, it would allow a lot more variation in athletes not restricted by a subjective choice
As someone who's 6'3"-6'4", this would have been nice to know in High School! lol
Would still have to be an elite level flat sprinter 😅
@@JoeSmith-fi8ip I was in cross country! But yeah sprinting is different than long distance running (which I HATED, like, END ALREADY lol)
@@NickWrightDataYTthen why did you participated in it .
I was 6’3” in high school and ran half marathons, but I did high jump and pole vault because the height was so much more of an advantage for feild events than my endurance was for distance events lmao.
I'm 5'4 and grew up playing soccer and run a lot. I have the advantage of being shorter and more agile than taller players since I have a lower center of gravity. That's my guess anyway
This is so relatable. I loved doing the hurdles when I was younger, but as I grew older the hurdles got higher, but I didn't get taller anymore. Stuck at a body length of 178 cm with relatively short legs, I decided to call quits on my favourite track event when I turned 18
This matches what I have analyzed. I've been hurdling for well over 50 years, meaning I have been through most of the age divisions. I'm short for a hurdler so as a teen I had to jump up. When I hit adult age, it was another 3 inches higher. I too had grown but never made it close to 6 feet. I was fast enough I could beat Olympic hurdlers over the first hurdle and scare the hell out of them, but I was nowhere to be seen in the finish photo because I couldn't maintain speed with all the extra jumping required. Now as an old man, my body is no longer as fast as it was, by a lot, but my hurdle form is actually better because the height has been lowered closer to my inseam and now is below the average height of my hips wile running. While I can't jump (much at all), I don't have to. Still I am fighting my limited stride length to stretch to the (arbitrary) distance between Masters hurdles. I will never be able to improve much, just chart the decay.
Great insight! Thank you for sharing your experience
How tall are you?
maybe should've just done sprints lol
Well I guess we soon will talk about Ice Hockey players birthday🤣
I’m curious-what about ice hockey players’ birthdays?0:
@@osoreo3697
It turns out that top players are more likely to be born in Q1 of a year than Q4.
It is a little hard to explain in an yt comment. But you can look up other yt videos about it.
A short video could be "Why Are So Many NHL Players Born In January?" it is 3 min. But I think "Malcolm Gladwell Explains Why Human Potential Is Being Squandered" is a better video and still only 11 min. But it is still not the full story.
You can also look up the stats, but they only tell you when fx NHL players are born, not why this is the case.
It is an interesting topic, but unlike hurdles it is not inherent to the sport, rather it is part of how we recognize young talent in the sport. Honestly this is something all youth sports with age categories based on birth years have. Even school can have this problem where the older kids for their year appear smarter, and hence receive more encouragement.
@@Petch85 Here's a short explanation based on my experience with the sport.
Ice hockey junios are put into "skill brackets" from a very young age. When you're only less than 10 years old, 12 months or even 6 months is a massive difference in physical development, hence kids born in January are more likely to be sorted into the "skilled kids" category. The "skilled kids" get higher quality training and a more challenging environment, which further increases the skill gap. It's very stupid.
@@t_kups8309
Yes. But i feel like this is only scratching the surface.
How if this different from starting in school.
I think the big picture here is that "talent" just means better than what we would expect. You need to work hard to succeed, but it is not enough there are also a lot of random factors that in the end will be a big part of whether you will succeed in the end.
I think idea of "capitalization rates" might be helpful to locate the problems, but trying to solve them will be very hard.Also note that it is much easier to study this in sports and what is why you see sports mention all the time, but the problem is everywhere.
I have also seen some studies on athletes that have changed sports later in there life and had more succes with the new sport than the old one.
And there are also some studies on half-time vs full-time athletes and the importance of quantity of training vs high quality training and similar things done with music students.
But understanding how to get the most out of a persons potential or knowing a persons potential in the first place is super hard.
But in some sports there are and optimal body shape and in others there is an optimal birthday.🤷♂
Hurdle size could be indexed to the hurdlers size, but then we would be back to favouring specific body proportions
Could be leg length or total height, but I think having multiple hurdle events at different hurdle heights is the best idea
I am not a hurdler but love this analysis.
One suggestion for a reason the female hight distribution is larger is that female leg to torso ratio varies more than male. As we are just using hight as a determining factor for leg length this should be important.
I love the editing of this video, you can see the effort put into it while it also feeling kind of "home made" if that makes any sense, I love that everything is explained only using drawings or images
As a 5'3 hurdler i feel this 😢, great video though!!
Respect bro! I'm slightly taller at 5'4 lmao
Seems like there are more hurdles to become a hurdler than I first thought.
Outstanding video. Even among the top hurdles its clear that the hurdle heights and spacing effect peoples races differently. Some athletes struggle over the first few hurdles. Other athletes struggle over the later hurdles because of their longer strides. Small changes would have a big difference on yhe winner.
I hope you dont mind me making a video on this topic as well.
Thank you! And yes feel free to use this topic! If you pull anything from our video just credit us please as we love sharing information!
As a boy, I used to be a good sprinter, but not good enough to be projected as worldclass. Attending training was logistically difficult for our family, so we gave it up. It was twenty years ago. Turns out, as a 191 cm dude with a long neck (the only deadweight), maybe I should have continued athletics and transition to hurdles. Damn.
I think allowing you to set where the hurdles are, within reason, is a good way to deal with this.
Within reason is a good caveat. I would stack all mine at the end otherwise, and just yolo towards the finish line
@@TomcoDesignsthat would be illegal
This makes me think of speed climbing vs bouldering. In speed climbing, the positions of grips are all set, just like the hurdles. But with bouldering they change every time. Could be interesting to have a race where the hight and positions of hurdles where randomized every time.
Oh, I would have never thought of this. That would be quite a challenge, and quite a difference sport altogether, and I would love to watch it!
This makes me think of two sports. Cycling and Counter-Strike.
Cycling:
There are many types of races, and the riders looks in some way very different, but also very similar.
There are 3 things I think have a big impact.
1. Some countries have better infrastructure, like roads and bicycle lanes.
2. Some countries have better economies, thus you can afford an expensive bike.
3. Some countries have cycling in there history and therefor have a good community where talents can practice.
There are not many Asiens and Africans in pro cycling, and I don't think it has anything to do with body type (genetics)
Counter-Strike:
There are no females on the top teams in Counter-Strike and tropic countries are underrepresented.
Here are some ideas, but....🤷♂
1. Females meets more resistance from friends, family, the game design and other players when they try to play the game competitively.
2. Tropic countries have good weather and you might play more outside, where as Scandinavia, Baltic States, Russia, Ukraine etc. have many days with "not the best weather".
3. Countries that do not have good internet connections or a lack of official servers might not be able to play the game with a low enough ping to be able to play the game competitively.
As a Scandinavian I am very disappointed that we have not produced a female player that could fit in on one of the top 20 teams in the world. I would argue we have super good female players but it looks like they never get to train and learn with and from the best players. They play in the top of the female scene, but they are never really able to make the move over the the absolut top. And I do not thing it has anything to do with there genetics😂
I love this topic, but sometimes I hate (just a little) the competitiveness aspect of it. You should be able to enjoy basket with your friends even if you are only 5 feet tall. In pursuit of talent and winning we sometimes exclude some people from the group. And we say it is fair cause they are not as good as the other kits, so they have to stay on the bench. But in realty they just don't have the body for the sport they would like to play, or the sport might not even be available to the where they live, cause sport are a big part of our culture.
Wow! Thank you for the detailed thoughts. I hadn't thought about video games, but you bring up some interesting points here.
Next weeks video will be about different countries and their ability to produce good hurdlers, and your thoughts about economy and history are right on.
csgo is not a sport nerd
Yes, But a guy from Argentina is now in Cycling tour majors who started in 2000's on a crappy old used steel frame touring bike, bike that can have heavy loads on it while going long distances where old handlebars broke before he got bike so upright handlebars were put on as was all they had.
Everything you said for cycling is pretty much true for any sport out there.
And I would add that one of the reasons that there are no women on the top teams is because women are generally less interested in gaming which reduces the talent pool.
@@tijgertjekonijnwordopgegeten I would assume the largest factor in females being less interested in games is the encouragement by friends and family to play games. It’s seen as outside of the social norms and video games has been a male dominated space for years so it’s not surprising that females trying to enter have a hard time.
Great video. One thing that wasn’t considered here is the change in height of the hurdles between high school and college/pro. For the men, the hurdle height changes from 39” in high school to the standard 42” in college. Same is true for women. I would be curious to know the impact of that 3” on the height of hurdlers.
I'm suprised by the real world use of normal distribution
I'm a high school hurdler, so to find out that my height of 181.61 cm comes in just above the cutoff is nice.
Only slightly taller than you and have only tried jumping over hurdles just for fun and really wasn't difficult without any practice. Never knew there's actually an optimal range. Guess you need enough height to get over without really jumping but if you are insanely tall, just can't move legs fast enough
@@stevelau7694 the downside being you can't run at top speed if you're too tall
The same thing goes for any sport with weight classes:
If your ideal weight does not match a weight class, you either have to compete in a higher or lower weight class than would be ideal for you. The effect is probably less strong, and ideal weight is harder to define but ultimate it's arbitrarily advantaging some over others
Nice point! I hadn't thought about variations within weight classes. I had just thought about weight classes being a strategy to reduce bias and allow more people to compete in certain sports.
Yes, good one. This has become a huge problem in men's Olympic wrestling and weightlifting as those have moved from 10 weight classes to 6 and 5 respectfully, which really does arbitrarily select based on how suited you are for the weight class. The weights in wrestling are now like 10-12 kg apart vs more like 5-7kg, which is a MASSIVE difference.
The effect is far less pronounced on the women's side since their weights tend to be grouped more tightly than men's.
Ralph Mann has done all the science you bring up here…. Stride rates, stride lengths, comparison of hurdle height to leg length for males/females, COG vertical force requirements, horizontal force requirements, everything.
Males & females both get to 9m/s, the determining factor is hurdle height. I would also be interested in this data for BF%. Just like height, having 7% BF is a key performance descriptor.
If you are interested in this I encourage reading “The Mechanics of Sprinting and Hurdling” Ralph Mann 2022 edition.
Thanks for bringing this up. I will look into his analysis. I know his name because I saw it on the Track&Field record board at BYU almost everyday when I was on the team there. His name stood out because he was the only male BYU athlete to ever break a world record while he was in college! (400M Hurdles, or maybe back then it was the 440 Yard hurdles). A female athlete broke a world record in the indoor high hurdles in the late 90's, I believe.
@@MathTheWorld very cool. As an engineer turned track coach all this is right down my alley! Thanks for getting this track/science overlap out there.
Wild. This reminds me of my experience growing up. I’m a tad on the shorter side & was elite in my conference/region at the hurdles thru junior high where men & women’s hurdles were lower & the same size. When I moved up to high school, I was massively slowed down because I could no longer just glide over the barriers but had to jump. I ended up quitting the following year with among some other reasons, while being able to stride three steps smoothly, the height requirements meant I was never going to get near to breaking school & meet records like I did in junior high so it seemed like a waste.
Have a variable distance between each hurdle. So it messes up everyone being able to take a natural stride to achieve a fixed number of steps. As an interesting math task, you should find an optimal distribution to kill any height bias.
As a life long tennis player this remidms me of something lots of hating comments have towards the difference between men and womena matches, namely that you can never predict who'll win with the women cause "the women can't serve" (thats a ridiculous statement and everyone knows this). The difference between the men and women is that when the pressure is intense and you body is exhausted its far easier for a 6'2" man to get the ball precisely and powerfully over the net than a 5'9" woman. Im not calling for the height of the net to be lowered for women or anything considering that mixed doubles matches have both men and women playing at an insane level together
And 6'2'' is short for modern tennis. The average height of the top 20 is 6'5''.
The women are also all head cases. Seriously, the amount of choking during women's matches on the pro tour is crazy.
There definitely need to lower the hurdles for these events. Short people literally cannot compete with high hurdles, but tall people can compete with short hurdles.
no, the solution is to raise womens hurdles because your not supposed to be able to walk bover it like the women are
Yeah the issue becomes that it becomes increasingly easier for them to go over them. Literally could become jump normal running at a point
No. Let's make hurdles proportional in height to athletes leg length. Me as a not so tall person would jump over the same hard or easy hurdle as you tall people!😎
@@joneinarmattiasvisser6113 eh this is a questionable method as lowering them makes it FAR easier to get over. As shorter people can general jump higher than tall people
@@matyaskovecses4404 Women’s steeplechase has absurdly low barriers.
Need the same video and analysis on the height bias for basketball
Yes! I assume it’s an even clearer correlation, there’s only like a handful nba players under 6‘1. On the other hand I’ve read that 7ft males born in the US have like a 16% chance of making the nba 😂
@@yaab4845 it’s true, it’s crazy if you think about it
Part of what's going on it that women are more leg than torso relative to their height. Men are more torso than leg. That's going to impact things, in addition to the general issue of men's hips being a hell of a lot narrower.
Rowing is another sport with an arbitrary rule in place. There are two weight classes called light weight and open/heavyweight. In adult men’s the cutoff weight is 150 pounds, but in a sport dominated by the extremely tall this results in athletes cutting weight at all costs to be able to fit into the lightweight class.
Fortunately athletes are starting to realize they can gain 10-15 pounds, gain some muscle, and still be competitive in the heavyweight class as heavyweight times and lightweight times are very similar. This has resulted in the lightweight class becoming almost extinct because the athletes decided to stop competing in it.
Add a "free hurdle" into Olympic, this will be much easier than fixing the original one.
The distances between hurdles should be slightly randomized in such a way that no resonant frequency is especially prominent
Actually no.
Hurdlers adjust their gait and stride to accommodate height.
Just like equestrians do in showjumping.
Body proportions matter in all sports
@@mattk8810 I was trying to propose an idea which would avoid favouring any particular proportions! I know that plenty of sports have "ideal" proportions, and I don't think it's the end of the world. But it would be interesting to see people of completely different proportions all competing at the same event, with roughly equal chances of winning!
Great video about hurdles. If you like video games about track and gield I suggest you Medal winners 24.
Very interesting video! Makes me now wish there was a “free style” hurdle event. Where every runner has to have the same amount of hurdles but they could determine where to place them along the track
That's the only way to do it. The truth of the matter is that the height should be based on the height of the knees.
I think that if people were given complete control over their hurdles, then they could hurdle them near the beginning and then run the rest of the way.
there would have to be rules to where to place the hurdles, theres always gonna be one person to stack 8 hurdles in 2 feet and just leap over them
Just add some range at each hurdle position. Two lines the athletes where the athletes have to place the hurdles in between
I'd bet that leg length is the answer. Average heights between men and women are going to include men's comparatively longer torsos. So even with the hurdles being spaced five bodies long for both men and women, with the lower hurdle height and the longer leg ratio women have, you get more women able to compete at a high level.
I would keep the hurdles the same or lower them 5 cm but I would give total freedom on how they are positioned on your lane, it would be more fun like that. What would you do? Spread them equally, put them all at the start and accelerate? It would create metas and weird strategies etc.
Definitely place then earlier and closer. Give yourself four strides to get up to speed, then space them two strides apart rather than the current four strides. You still need an even number so you use the same lead leg. Then you can sprint the rest of the way after. The faster you clear the last hurdle, the more time you have left for the sprint.
In hockey, taller players get a special rule allowing them longer hockey sticks. If another player uses it, it’s a penalty, but if a taller player uses a shorter stick, it isn’t. So, it’s clear that there can be adjustments made in sports.
Wow, I didn't know that. That is a good example of adjustments in sports.
Open question: why is making a sport into something more people can be competitive at a good thing? (To be clear, I'm not saying it it's a bad thing or even a neutral thing, just that I don't see it as trivial following from universally accepted premises.)
Fundamentally, most athletics are comparing to some standard. That standard end up being more or less arbitrary deepening on the sport, but the fact it is a standard is kinda the point. An interesting point is that a lot of sports derive from some sort of real world activity (often military in nature) and that activity isn't necessarily "fair" to the general population (and in some cases it even motivates making it unfair).
I think the point here is slightly different. In this case, arbitrary rules have made this sport accessible on a competitive level for very few people. Unlike shotput where the very activity itself has done the same thing.
All implement decisions are arbitrary. The shot would allow for more body types (and more strategies) if it wasn't 16#. It would not be a better event, though.
Interestingly, even after taking out the 5'6"Levy from the pool of the 2020 Olympics, the javelin finals had less height variation than the hurdles.
A wider range of athletes means we're more likely to see the best human hurdler running hurdles, which is what spectators want. Now we only have "the best hurdler who happens to be within a certain height range"
@@ninjalectualx But that presupposes that "the best human hurdler" isn't defined by the ability to do the sport _as it's currently defined._ Why is some new definition for the sport (or alternatively; some different sport) more valid or any less arbitrary than the current one? (I'm not saying the current definition is perfect or even best, but rather that "allows to most people to be competitive" is neither desirable nor undesirable when considering what the sport should be.)
When you get right down to it, at a world championship level, every definition is going to exclude something like 99.99999% of all humans, and that's kinda the point. And most of those excluded will be a result of physical attribute outside their control.
If hurdles *were* to be changed, I'd propose switching to a non uniform spacing specifically chosen to be pathological. Ensure that basically every competitor has no more than one pair of hurdles that they have an ideal stride length for. Make it a contest about being able to quickly run where you are forced to change your stride length every few steps.
@@benjaminshropshire2900 because the current definition is arbitrary, and changing it allows for more competitors.
This is such a good video. Loved it. Please make more on athletics events
I do have some planned. Stay tuned!
I hate that i love hurdles and is 5' 5", its actually so annoying because its impossible for me to 3 step so i have to 5 step, which massively slows my time as i stutter every single step
I am sorry to hear that. Thank you for sharing that here because it does ratify the point about the hurdles we make the video.
I’m a collegiate high hurdler who happens to be 5’9, so I really appreciate the recognition about the difficulty of not being 6’+. I often feel like if I were just a few inches taller I’d be much much better which is frustrating. Adjusting hurdle distance is really interesting and I think honestly that matters more than the height. It would take forever to setup at meets though, and it would be tough to make sure they’re at the proper distances
I am impressed that you are at the collegiate level! Good Luck!
Yeah, the hurdles already slow down the track meet with the setup and take-down, but it interesting to think about how to adjust competition to make it more inclusive.
3 of the ten fastest all time are between 69 and 70 inches. They represent 2 Olympic GOLD 1 silver and 9 world golds. One is the first and maybe only man to go sub 10 100m and sub 13 110mh. Allen Johnson, Colin Jackson and Omar McLeod
2012 Olympic Champion and 2 time World Champ Sally Pearson (AUS) is 5foot6!!!!
This applies to many sports. The height of the hoop in basketball and net in volleyball for example
It's different for those sports. Whether the basketball hoop is 10 feet or 12 feet tall, you will still have an advantage the taller you are. The hurdles thing shown in this video is a different story, where the exact size of the hurdles biased towards a specific height instead of just "taller people do better"
Not to mention hurdle races are already one of the most time consuming and logistically tough events to set up and run, custom heights/distances would never be feasible
This is exactly why I said that none of our suggestions would be taken seriously. Just a fun thought experiment. Believe me, having moved the hurdles on and off for track meets. We don't really need to be changing heights and distances between hurdles every heat.
Genetic lotto has a lot of bearings upon the abilities of a person. Be that any kind of sports, arts, and academics. Some people are more equal than others
It's always nice to get good recommendation combining Sports and science, thanks youtube algorithm, I will subscribe.
I personally ran hurdles in high school and I did notice that as I got taller and hurdles got taller I got worse at them.
For example I ran 15.3 when I was 16-17 on 36" hurdles while being 6'-2"-6'-4 tall
But despite me being much faster and stronger when I was 18-19 I only managed to run 15.6 on 39" hurdles while being 6'-5-6'-6" tall.
I never ran a 42" hurdles race but I am sure it would be similar situation. My main events were long jump and triple jump.
Another clear example to me that men's hurdles are too tall comes from results distribution, for example there's only ~3400 men that ran sub 15.8 while there is ~4500 women that did the same.
Hurdles would probably need to be lowered to 39" range for distributions to be more similar.
I also like the idea of different lengths between the hurdles.
I don't think any of those would actually come into place but who knows, IAAF did announce possibility of long jump from the "Zone" instead of take off board.. we will see
Perhaps you forgot about basketball unless you're referring only to track and field.
In my opinion, there are even sadder biases: the biases in favor of anorexia. They are evident in gymnastics, and they are not due to physics, but due to human factors aside the jury.
You are egregiously misusing the term anorexia. What you mean is that they have to be skinny. Anorexia is a mental illness and it usually presents in patients who are far thinner than any elite athlete. No gymnast looks anywhere close to anorexic. There's no compelling evidence that gymnasts even have unhealthy bodyweights.
there was a runner here on youtube talking about how her sport and coaches basically pushed her into anorexia. super eye opening stuff and amazing of her to speak out on it.
let me see if i can remember her name
As someone who is 5'8 and did hurdles yojr absolutely right . Hurdles should be updated to be a percentage of height relative to your hip
3:50 The inches in the histogram are so awkward, and I stopped watching when he continued to force using inches when the data he was using was in cm.
Plenty of height bias in the high jump. The problem is, basically, how much distance you must raise your center of gravity. A taller person must raise their center of gravity less distance to get over the bar. Given equal jumping ability the taller person always wins.
Height is also great in pole vault. Make DuPlantis 6” shorter and he becomes physically unable to make the bar because the distance from his hands to his hips is too small. Also, taller people are heavier and thus can use a stiffer pole, returning more energy to their jump than a lighter athlete would get.
Pole Vault can have small guys with coordination who use speed and are basically sprint launching using a pole a size or two bigger then they normally would or have people who have great coordination who have slightly blocky or mass on a shorter body for events as well. In high jump you see a body from about 6 foot 2 inch/188 cm to about 6 foot 8 inch/203.25 cm maybe a bit taller usually much more then 7 feet/213.3 cm and are really skinny yet muscular looking really similar to some taller distance runners in 1/2 marathon or under events. Why such a range? Well, being much taller your body will struggle to get in position for a high jump.
Yeah, Stefan Holm was a fantastic high jumper who cleared 2.40 iirc, despite being only 1.81 or something, while most of his competitors were 1.90+. If the high jump was judged on how much higher than your own height you jumped, he'd probably have taken the gold every time! That said, I think even he would agree that using absolute measurements is the way to go, because it gets too convoluted and messy otherwise. It's never gonna be completely fair anyway, so why not let genetic freaks win gold medals and get some compensation for being too tall, short, wide etc for most infrastructure they come across... 😄
@@korganrocks39951.81cm is still fairly tall. I suspect he would be outclassed by shorter jumpers in this updated metric. Much like the best shooters in the NBA are far and away the best shooters in the world since they would be selected out for other reasons.
@@AnyVideo999 It's above average height for the general population by a couple of inches, but it's 11 cm shorter than anyone else I saw on a list of men who had jumped 2.40 and above.
Motor Racing favours shorter lighter athletes are faster
For example
I’m 6’2” and 62kg (which is extremely underweight)
My teammates 5’6” and 45kg
Each few kgs are tenths of seconds and when your trying as hard as you can to beat smaller racers you’ll always have a disadvantage
Easy Fix.
Set hurdle height and separation as a ratio of each runner's height. So each runner is running a race proportionally challenging to their height.
Interesting. I wouldn't mind a change but it would be impossible to do since all athletes would be against it
Olympic target shooting also have some very arbitrary rules imo. Especially the 10m air rifle event.
Some bullet points are:
- mens top level results are probably a little better than top womens results, but the depth of the field is much bigger on the women's side.
- the target is at a set height of 140cm +/- 5cm
- the adjustments of the rifle are limited in such a way that you hit those linitation the taller you are.
I don't understand you. I am tall. Why am I missing the target because of that?
I’m a collegiate 110m hurdler, and I LOVE it. I’m 6’3 but I’m just not exactly fast on foot so although I run decent times, some of my teammates who are shorter than 6’ but much faster than me in the hurdles partially due to footspeed
Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed the video. It is similar experience in college, but I was a discus thrower, but pretty lanky and not nearly as strong as the other throwers. I was still competitive because of my technique, but never could get the bulk and power needed to excel. Good Luck!
@@MathTheWorld I actually used to compete in the decathlon, but the discus is the one event I just could not get the hang of. I liked the dec but just was competitive in the hurdles, noticeably better in the high jump (those event I did in high school) and far behind in everything else
I thought this was referring to a height bias in math olympiads.
In highschool I think most of our female hurdlers had to 4 step between the hurdles. I really liked the 300 because I was able to run over them hurdle height where I could barely clear the 110 hurdles my senior year.
I think the speed climbing route is similarly arbitrary, although I think technique can conteract that more than it can in hurdles
Have you ever watched a Decathlon hurdle race? The correlation to success is much more related 100m times than height.
Are there short decathletes?
Brian Clay
Being taller certainly is not a bad thing in the Deca. HJ, PV, Disc and Javelin
This isn’t really a problem in my opinion. Every single event has a specific body type and size that is ideal for the sport. Using your example, shot putters need to be big, but not so big that they can’t build up any momentum. The weight of the shot put was decided by people, just like the height of the hurdlers. They could have made the shot 1 pound and smaller people would excel, or they could have made it 40 pounds so even bigger people would excel. They set it at 16 pounds for men and 8.8 pounds for women and certain size people dominate. Should they use bigger or smaller shots for different size people? At the end of the day, the height and spacing of the hurdles had to be set at some number, so they picked one that they thought would make for the most interesting competition. The same goes for the arbitrary weights and distances and whatnot for every sport.
If you want to talk about actual unfairness in sports, I have two good ones. In curling, everyone has to hold their stick righty even if they’re left handed. Also, in baseball a left handed pitcher has a distinct advantage when it comes to picking off runners at first base and preventing them from stealing 2nd as easy because their windup has them standing towards 1st base. A righty would be facing towards 3rd base which isn’t much of an advantage.
if the hurdle height is reduced that will make the long legged hurdlers OP because they won't need to bend as much and just literally stretch a bit to go over
One stereotype you reinforced is dead wrong. Stride length in walking is determined by height, but NOT when sprinting.
When sprinting, the foot lands underneath your centre of mass (directly under the hips), meaning using long legs to “reach” or “stretch” in front of your COM will result in significant overstriding and therefore, slower times.
Stride length is determined by the amount of FORCE pushed into the ground, during the foot strike. The more force pushed into the ground, the greater the force return and the greater the stride length.
Am I the only one that noticed your mixup when comparing the female bell curves? You swopped hurdlers and sprinters.
We did end up swapping on accident. Nice catch. We didn't catch that in our quality check. (I don't often catch things on the quality check because I'm cringing too much from hearing my own voice.)
@@MathTheWorldthe biggest struggle for a CZcamsr 😂
The problem with letting everyone place the hurdles where they want is logistics. For that to make sense at the Olympic level, you'd have to do it at the collegiate, and youth level. Otherwise you'd select for height before people could get to the pro-level anyway. A high school meet where every hurdler could se their hurdle spacing would take forever! And World Athletics is trying to reduce meet time so it's more appealing to more people, so they won't change that rule at the pro level because of the additional time. And could you imagine if some poor official put the hurdles they were in charge of at the wrong spot? I do think lowering the men's height to 39" would be a great change though, because 42" is just ridiculous and limits not just the number of pure hurdlers, but decathletes as well.
I agree, they should make the hurdles random heights and spaces
Ideal world: Hurdles must be set to 1.25× the inside leg measurement of the athlete, measured before the race. That is, hurdle height is different in each lane. The distance run and distance between hurdles must be relative to 10 hurdles' distance based on leg length too. That means different start lines in each lane. Basically _scale the entire race by athlete size._
Downside: Track officials and coaches have to manually adjust and verify 80 hurdles before each race... avoiding this is partly why a fixed value exists. Stride length / inside leg length may also be too simplistic for "fair" measurements.
Horrible outcome: I can already imagine the controversies where athletes' lanes are changed last minute for some reason and two athletes accidentally race with the wrong hurdles from the wrong start, or simply that one or more hurdles in a lane is set wrong and then a complaint snowballs out of control because some track official or another refuses to accept there was an error.
Still not completely fair as shorter people can usually jump higher than tall people.
I’m 4’11 and I do cross country but not track- I make excuses, but really I don’t do track because I know I could never hurdle
You can see the body type optimization in disc golf pretty clearly. Even though it isn't a "money" sport, it's pretty clear that being very long and lean provides an advantage. like, no coach is grabbing those players. They just simply are the best in the game.
Is the advantage you can throw from closer to the hole when "putting"? Otherwise shouldn't it just be who can throw a disc the furthest and/or most accurately which shouldn't match the best with tall and lean.
Would have love if same analysis was applied to sports with weight classes like wrestling to see if there are body types that excel even when weight is controlled
That would be interesting. I'll do some thinking and see if I can find out how to get good data on one of these sports.
The hurdle spacing to elite height ratio being close to the same for men and women is highly suggestive. Give the other assertion being made, it would suggest that the ratio compared to the *average* population height is significantly more different.
Simple solution
Distance between hurdles remains the same but,
Height of hurdles changes relative to the height of an athlete
I would set the height as a specific percentage of the athlete’s height and let the athletes choose the spacing with the requirement they take x number of steps between hurdles.
No sport is fair… there will always be some gene that make someone better at some sport.
One comment that I have regarding women in their height is that you may be looking at it from a different perspective. It’s not so much which female athletes are good at hurdles, it’s more like if you are a female, and you are a certain height, you probably don’t elect to go into track and field. For example. If you are over 6 feet, you probably gravitate to Volleyball or basketball because you have a demonstrated superiority over other athletes that isn’t really available in a track and field situation. For example, soccer doesn’t really have any athletes that are taller than 510 or 11 inches simply because the taller ones don’t choose to go into soccer.
Leg length is proportional to the rest of the body, you could always try and calculate stride length... ;)
4:11 What you're talking about is D2F.
There is another sport where arbitrary height based decision changes the sport - american baseball.
In layman understanding - there is legal zone you have to throw the ball, that is defined not by the person throwing the ball, but by the batter from the opposing team, more specifically by their limb/torso etc. position and size. Because of that, the leagues ban dwarfs from participating, as it creates throws that are impossible or at least bad for throwers, making a team of dwarfs potentially a world champion winning team, due to impossible throws for the opposing team.
To hear less botched explanation you can view "Why MLB Banned Dwarfs From Baseball" here on youtube.
Thank you for the comment! I will look into it. Intuitively it makes sense, but when watching baseball on tv, it's hard to tell how tall are short people are. This would be great to get some data on. Thanks again!
@@MathTheWorld @MathTheWorld On another note. Your video may have put me in the algorithm around the subject, but I've just seen the short by Trackoholic "He was too fast for track", how running events (short distances I'd assume) timed by the gun, false start is defined as running before signal _and for 0.1s after it_, because it was tested that reaction times below 0.1s had to be well timed false starts rather than someone having faster reaction times (average reaction time was mentioned in the comments to be 180ms, and the fact that some of the people CAN in fact react faster - which frequently Disqualifies them. They have to "react slower but still fast to not lose time", which is both arbitrary and opposes pushing the boundries of humans rather than pushing it.)
As to height, it should be possible to determine the hurdler's center of mass and use that times some standard multiplier to determine the hurdle height. Distance between hurdles ... I can't think of any way of adjusting that without making it "unfair" (if you just make it a standard multiplier times stride length, then either people will have different length courses, or they'll have more, or less, track after the last hurdle so that the overall course is the same length). Neither of those sound fair to me, and other events don't change the length based on stride length (it's the 100m sprint, not the 45 or whatever stride sprint).
Some decided the weight of the shot, or the scoring systems in gymnastics.
I would say an interesting thing you'll find is the height bias will change over time and often not upwards. One of the reasons there is a lack of distribution in men is that athletes used to be and still are today trainers would simply refuse to train someone who did not fit the height stats although less so as trainers are realising that it is St upid, and the interesting thing this has caused is heights in a number of sports has started to drop, this is also because of nations who's height is on average shorter.
Isn’t hurdling all about inseam not height?
Yes but as he said, there isn't much information on inseam lengths
I enjoyed the concept of the video though I think there are a couple flaws with your analysis and interpretation.
Whilst I don’t have exact figures, around 20% of the male US population is 6 foot and above with around 2% over 6 foot 3. In your sample, having 5 athletes above 6’3 out of the 46 above 6’ is what you would expect in the general population. Based on the observed data I don’t think there is any evidence to conclude that there is an upper bound to the optimal height range. Also, anecdotally, the reigning Olympic champion is 6’5.
True, the lack of top 110m hurdlers above 6'5" may be because there are so few men above that height in the population, combined with basketball being more lucrative for men 6'6" and taller. Back in the 1990s there was a German hurdler Florian Schwarthoff who was 6'7" and won an Olympic bronze medal in 1996, so it is possible to be elite at that height.
Shorten the hurdles. Or make it like weight in boxing: split the athletes into groups based on height.
I like that idea!
They should change the rules and allow each competitor to adjust the distance in between the hurdles.
Same goes for every multiple of 200 m run
The wide range of sports available is a medal for every body type. It was not originally about being fair to the prospective athletes, it was about making for good spectacle. The wrong body type makes for a natural underdog. Everyone loves an underdog.
The point you raised is when we also raise in the video. We don't expect any sports authorities to actually change, and their response would be to point to other sports, one of which would be fitting for whichever body type.
The point of the video, is less about unfairness, but more about arbitrariness, and how small of a window the men's hurdles allow for elite competitors.
There are a ton of sports where the rules dictate who has the advantage. I'd dare say all of them. That's what makes it a game. If you stripped away all the rules that favour a particular biological trait you'd have nothing left. In fact, I challenge you to come up with a game that doesn't favour something beyond our control. If there is a challenge, there is bias, for we have differing mental and physical capacities.
But few sports arbitrarily choose a narrow range of body types like this. The rules could arbitrarily be slightly different, it would still be hurdles, but different (shorter or taller) people would be olympic champions. That is very different from the 100 m sprint, where the very act of accelerating and running fast by itself selects a wider range of body sizes, about 1.6-2.0 m height for men as a guestimate.
Why not allow to adjust the distance between the hurdles to the preference of the hurdler? Just keep the number of them the same and the total distance, and demand equal distance between all hurdles.
You should analyse 2022 world cup
height is not written nor pronounced heigth, it's a t at the end not a th.
Aaarghh! Yes, my hick up bringing slipping out again. If I don't consciously focus on speaking correctly, it just slips out.
I never had training as a child, neither in my primary or secondary school, nor did my family to practice athletics, or any sport. I also didn't have a good diet like the average person. However, I am 1.85 meters tall, and when I was 23 or 24 years old I started running from time to time, and I managed to do 100 meters in 11 seconds, without having a base of physical development. Surely if he had had the training from an early age and good nutrition, not only would he run faster, but he would have had greater physical development and greater height.
Optimize the hurdle height for the person in that lane
I agree!
That removes all the current records and is more work for local meets
forcing every facility in the world to have at least 3 times the hurdles at hand (probably more to implement it in any real capacity) seems extremely unreasonable, not even considering the logistical problem of having to change the hurdles between every single heat.
Kind of weird to call it unfair. All the athletes play under the same condition. The only thing unfair is genetics.
I guess it's unfair in an arbitrary way, unlike most sports where the ideal body type will get the best result. For example, if the 100 meter sprint was changed into the 100 step sprint, we wouldn't have had thrilling finals between Usain Bolt and Powell, Blake, Gatlin etc, it'd just be Bolt vs a bunch of other tall guys who weren't nearly as fast as those I just mentioned.
I agree. I think the ideal body type is just so much more narrow. Sports will always favor one body type over another. Even positions in sports will favor one body type over another. Maybe they should make adjustments as to hurdle height and distance. But, some people are suggesting to optimize these factors based on the athlete. I disagree with that. It should still be uniform amongst all athletes.
Completely weird. Every other sport described in this video optimizes the athlete's genetically defined attributes to some standard. "Fair" is a human invention, and a very recent one, at that. Nature doesn't give a flying fig about human inventions.
In hockey, taller players get a special rule allowing them longer hockey sticks. If another player uses it, it’s a penalty, but if a taller player uses a shorter stick, it isn’t. So, it’s clear that there can be adjustments made in sports.
@@WowOafus who said shit about hockey?
Bruh ! India does have hurdlers. We all aren't short. The new generation is relatively tall. Our Women's NR is 12.7 and men's record 13.3
I thought that was a bit of a weird choice to include. India has 1.5 billion people I’m sure you can find at least 50 million people over 6 foot 4, let alone just 6 foot
@@joshanderson9391 Morever, Height varies from region to region. Up in the North we have an average of 5'9 for males and 5'5 for women. You can easily find men above 6'2 here in numbers here. Its the belt below north india that is generally short. Due to the difference in historic diet
What about height and ape index in rings. Most accomplished rings specialist are usually under 1.65 m
I'm 6'2" with long legs, looks like I made a mistake