NL WC: Umps call infield fly rule on Simmons' popup
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- čas přidán 18. 12. 2013
- 10/5/12: The umpires call the infield fly rule on a popup by Andrelton Simmons, causing the game to be played under protest by the Braves
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As a braves fan, I watch this video occasionally just to piss myself off again
Lol. As do I. I get just as mad watching it again as I did when it happend.
I’d get more mad every time the graphic comes up and says 3 errors. Those E were way more significant than that call
Legit call...
As a baseball fan this pisses me off
Why would you be mad?
An infield fly rule call walkthrough:
It is a pop up (not a line drive, nor a bunted ball) ANYWHERE in fair territory that in the umpire’s judgment (any or all of them) feels an infielder can make a reasonable play on the ball.
1. It does not have to be in the infield.
2. The infielder doesn’t have to catch it.
3. An outfielder can catch it and it still be an infield fly.
4. No, a player does not HAVE to be “camped” under the ball.
5. The runners DO NOT have to run.
6. ONLY if the ball is caught do they have to tag-up. IF THEY CHOOSE TO RUN.
7. If the ball is in foul territory/near the baseline the proper call should be (infield fly, if fair).
8. If the ball lands foul, then it is foul. It is a strike to the count (no strike 3) and the infield fly does not take place but it is still in affect.
9.In field fly rule is on with runners on 1st and 2nd -or- 1st, 2nd, and 3rd with LESS than TWO outs.
"This is embarrassing for braves fans." No. That call was embarrassing...
they can both be embarrassing. and they both were.
That was the right call.The infield fly rule is if an infielder can make a popfly catch the umpires will call a infield fly to avoid an infielder purposely dropping the ball to get a double or triple play because you are not allowed to purposely drop catches to affect the outcome of the game.
Call it an outfield fly rule then ^__^
It's called an infield fly because it could have been caught by an infielder, not because it's in the infield.
The Braves' fans should be embarrassed. They don't know the rule and instead of accepting they lost the game because they were outplayed it's just easier to blame the umpires, even when they got the call right.
i'm not even a Braves fan and this pissed me off
completely changed the momentum of the game
Thorin Jordan Thats what its like being an Atlanta sports fan.
It was already 3-6 how’s it change the momentum and in the 8th
Chipper comes up with the bases loaded and one out in the 8th. What do you mean how?
WittyBanter 96 it was his last game meaning he’s old and older players lose their ability to hit like they used to also he didn’t even score a run in or would’ve been able to even if the bases were loaded
Kuruma Uzamaki doesn't matter because he's old and it's his last game. He's still a threat at the plate no matter what. The energy in the stadium when I seen this game live especially when the braves got things going in the eight was incredible. Cardinals were on their heels and after the bad call, it gave the momentum back to st Louis to be able to get out of the inning.
Where's Greg Gibson the home plate umpire when you need him. Fuck sakes.
Ikr
Fr
remember he is in LA I believe motioning to both players
No, he's in St. Louis motioning to both players.
Alex Binkley I laughed way too hard at this
I can finally watch this in peace after the Braves won the World Series
congrats yall deserve it
@@danielm.5163 thanks!
Same here.. This haunted me for so long
I can’t. This still pisses me off, especially with it being against the Cards… but it isn’t as bad now that we got our World Series dub.
correct call. infielder should have caught it with ordinary effort
i'm mad cause it was Chipper's last game, what a terrible way for him to go out
That's his own fault. He could have decided to come back for another year.
@@jamedlock83 not the point but whatever
@@jamedlock83 that's Kentuckys mindset when they lose in the round of 32 every year
He also went like 0-4 and had a crucial error
Infield fly rule was put in place to prevent double/triple plays due to infielders intentionally letting pop outs drop...its not supposed to work against the offense, Kozma was not camped under this ball, its not average effort when a shortstop has to run to left field, he thought he was called off but he wasnt and should have been charged with the error. Just a horrible call, anyone attempting to defend it doesnt know shit about baseball.
No, you don't know the rules of baseball if you think that was the wrong call. That was the RIGHT call, and you know it.
It's a terrible call and PersianSelection explains exactly the purpose of the infield fly rule. It is to protect the hitting team from a double play by an infielder intentionally dropping the ball and then turning two. The defense couldn't even have gotten an out on this play.
@@thomasmckenzie4584 This call was clearly correct. Period. There's no disputing that fact. Learn the rule.
I know the rule. I also know the purpose of the rule.... to protect the baserunners from getting doubled up. The rule was also there for the umpires to make the call when the ball is on the way up, not when it is on the way down and 2 feet from the ground. The umpire completely botched this call.
There isn't a manager or player in baseball who would agree with this call. It was brutal!!!!
@@thomasmckenzie4584 Nothing you said holds any relevance. You also make the false claim that it was called late.
You know who could have made the right call.....Greg Gibson ,the home plate umpire
But he was too busy motioning to both players to make the call
+Jesse Lindell As the Dodgers were celebrating in the dugout.
Jeff Kellogg was the Home Plate Umpire.
PD P it’s a joke look it up
@@pdp6692 look up game 6 of the 2013 NLCS, and you'll get that joke.
The infield fly rule is supposed to protect base runners, not fielders.
exactly. there is zero reason an IFF call should benefit the defense more than the offense.
Testing system
One of the worst calls in MLB history.
Why?
They nailed it. Got it right. Taking heads clueless.
+blarsonjr I'm not sure why it drives me so nuts, but it does. Maybe it's not so much that these folks are clueless, but they so brazenly act as if they aren't.
But if you read the rules, it's an infield fly. The umpire doesn't have the option to not apply the rules.
+Martin Gardner I think you're adding to what I say, right? Like, agreeing with me? I realized my last comment could be misconstrued as me saying the umpires clueless, but I was responding to someone else and talking about the people who were chiming in without having any clue on the actual rule.
"This is embarrassing"
No, that umpire crew was embarrassing
garrison0532082 both.
Joel Zand that’s not an infield fly rule
Joel Zand just bc you’re an umpire doesn’t mean you’re good at it
You need to learn MLB Rules cupcake ...
@@ICF31
If you aren't an ump, and you don't know the rules, what do you rely on for interpretation, osmosis ???
I'm a Cardinals fan and even I thought this was a HORRIBLE Call, man did we get away with one..
Another person who dosen’t know the rules
@@mikeloosemore6301 Another example of a commentator with a degree in EWV...empty words/vain rhetoric, but perhaps needs a refresher course in language arts with emphasis in spelling..."doesn't" is correct.
@@captainc7160 When you try proving someone wrong by talking about an entirely different subject, you have no clue what is going on
@@mikeloosemore6301 So far (on this thread) you haven't stated any facts to support any clues either. So back to the play...which had two fielders in pursuit of a fly ball, neither could track it well enough for the catch. Therefore, it lands "neatly in the outfield"...like an eight-iron to the 17th green. What is the rule (or definition) at hand?....it's how well "ordinary effort" fits the picture...not very well based on the effort of these fielders (especially Holliday...who slowed to a light trot and watched Kozma's unsuccessful attempt). It's now your turn to say something relevant...if you can think of anything.
@Dees Nuts first of all, they could have easily gotten a force out at second or third, and when you say the umpire should rule it immediately, that means as soon as the criteria for infield fly is met in this situation. Kozma was able to get camped under the ball for a good 3 seconds and was not running back the entire time. You can have your opinion, but this call in my opinion was correct
1:42 How is this embarrassing to Atlanta fans? That was the worst call in the history of baseball and the people in the stands made it known.
How so? Just because you don't know the rules makes it a terrible call?
Pandaoniman Was it a bad call? Yeah. Was it the worst call in the history of baseball? No. Relax your hyperbole. How about Armando Galarraga's blown perfect game by Jim Joyce? What about Jeffrey Maier 1996 ALCS Game 1? And, hell, what about "The Call" in 1985 where we Cardinals fans ourselves were screwed over? These things happen. Just gain some perspective.
+jason beswick are you dumb. Whether you know the rules or not, the players, coaches and announcers are all calling bullshit so you know its a bullshit call
DTA Kings Quote the part of the rule that makes this a "bullshit" call.
This was not the worst not even close
that time I tried to throw my Tv onto Turner Field...from my living room
If a correct call makes you want to throw your TV onto Turner Field I'm curious to see how you'd react to an incorrect call?
@@tylerrogers3782 in what way that was correct he’d have to dive to get that ball that was so deep the left fielder wasn’t even playing shallow
@@Conr328 Ordinary Effort- the SS got back there without difficulty and had AMPLE time to make the catch. He then gave way to the LF and the ball fell between them. Ordinary effort is the key phrase here. You should try having a look in the rule book- you might learn something.
@@tylerrogers3782 Ordinary effort includes a fielder positioning himself FOR the catch..."exhibiting what he should". Kozma didn't identify the correct location. The "rule book" description of O/E is but one sentence that can be broadly interpreted. Kozma also didn't know where his LF was.
From a Cards fan, this call was terrible.
+Andy Stubblefield Deffiantly sadly this call was a turning point in the game. The Braves were gaining momentum and was coming back big time. I think this is the call that got the replay in baseball right? Unfortunately for the Braves and fortunate for your cardinals lol it wasn't here.
As a baseball fan it was terrible; as someone who enjoys seeing bad things happen to bad people, it was beautiful.
@@johnnyfive222 No, this call didn't bring in replay. This isn't even a reviewable call under the rules of replay. This call wasn't even incorrect, so there's nothing to even fix.
TPTGopher what are you talking about bad people ?
hbk314 Yes it was it was very incorrect
8 years later, the Braves are finally World Series Champions. So many years of pain and disappointment preceded last night's victory.
Go Phillies!!!
@@alexdwyer7677 Yea Go 1-5 to start the year Phillies!
@@stevenroberts614 doesn't matter how you start especially in NL East
@@ryanbrown4401 Correction to your comment, "It doesn't matter how (THE BRAVES) start, in the NL east." That is because the Braves absolutely OWN the NL EAST.
And they won it in spite of a disastrous "rebuild" that needlessly prolonged their chances at WS contention. Very impressive win.
Still one of the worst calls I've ever seen in my life.
Correct call. Pull your head out.
Alan Hess Incorrect call. The infield fly rule is designed to stop the defense from letting the ball fall intentionally to get a double play. There is no way on earth that, unless the Braves baserunners just stood completely frozen in time, they were doubling up two runners on this play considering how far out the ball was from the infield.
AnEternalEnigma The rule, as written, only requires that the ball be able to be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort. It doesn't matter how deep the ball is.
Justin Sampson that was not ordinary effort
And if you still admit it was the correct call then your straight biased and
BigJim35 Worst call since the 91 WS when Ron gant was pulled off the base..I dont care who you are if you know anything about baseball at all, that was a horrid call
I would buy shit just to throw on the field.
KartKing4ever Why buy shit when you can just shit and throw it on the field?
*****
Good point.
KartKing4ever or you can just run on to the field and take a big crap and throw it at the umpire for a direct hit
Not in Atlanta it cost 10 bucks for a bottle of coke
David Bentley Best 10 bucks ever spent in a Braves game.
7 years later it is 2019 this is our year and he is umpiring the braves vs cardinals again at home this is going to be interesting
Never mind 13-1 in the 3rd inning I thought it was r year always next year
Master Bokey lol I’m here watching this video because I saw he was the crew chief for the braves cardinals game
@@jacobsikking914 lol same here!
Master Bokey the espn article got me here with this incident being the main topic lol
Same lol
"this is our year" LOL
Orioles fan here. Love when fans and players take action against these terrible umpires. Keep it up!!
Braves fans were loaded with passion that night. Everyone knew this had the potential to be Chipper's last game (which it was). Granted, Chipper's huge error on what should have been a routine GIDP did more to lose the game than this, this was still one of the worst calls in the history of baseball. An infield fly rule 200 feet into the outfield? Sure. I could understand why the Braves fans were amped.
Doesnt matter how far the ball is. The rule is, if the infielder is able to catch it with ordinary effort.
kyle kerby Before you answer this...go back and watch it again...no way in hell you call that "ordinary" effort lol
Astew 95 It was a typical miss communication play...how was that an ordinary effort if you need to communicate at all?
kyle kerby So you're telling me that even if it was on the warning track of the outfield it still would have counted as a infield fly if he had a legitimate chance to catch it?? that makes no sense
If an infielder is camped under it, it's an infield fly rule, even one foot from the fence. The only reason people got hyped about the call is because of how tbs announcers played it up. The announcers work for the station the team owner owns, they're paid to be biased.
I have no problem with the Braves fans throwing stuff on the field. That was such a bad call the umps deserved to know how bad it was.
You agree with fans reacting like this when the umpires made the correct call?
How was this a correct call lol? The ball landed half way into the outfield. The players were never under the ball. If you think they made the correct call then you know nothing about baseball.
***** I agree that the ball was too deep for it to be purposely dropped and a double play turned (infield fly rule). However, when the umpired called IF fly rule, Kozma looked like he was pretty much camped under it. Then Kozma runs forward a few steps to get out of the way but the call was already made. It is still a judgement call by the umpire, in which it worked out for the Cardinals.
***** This is clearly an infield fly rule. The ball could be caught by the shortstop with normal effort. End of story.
If the play was so routine like you said then why did the ball bounce 5 feet away from any player. It wasnt a infield fly because that ball was over half way to the wall.
I've never been prouder of our fans than for littering that field with garbage just like the Umpires did. Joe can shove it.
idk man...groundskeepers were the ones that paid for the shit call. kind of a raw deal for them
An infield-fly was the right call, though. The rule only says that it needs to be catchable by an infielder with ordinary effort; if you watch Kozma the whole way through the play, he's jogging. If he doesn't get called off by Holliday (others have said he may have heard the umpire signaling and got confused) then he gets there in plenty of time.
Well, if the Braves fans had class and took the call. Don't blame the people running the stadium for the call.
I believe the fans should have hit the umpire with the bottles.
wyssmaster you’re stupid, the infielder had to go way out to the outfield, so you’re telling me that he could’ve been on the warning track and INFIELD FLY would’ve been called? They need to change the name of that rule if that’s the case
I remember I was in my freshman year of college watching this game with the guys.. when this happened we all went into a uproar because we knew that this call just changed the momentum of the game
same man. this was outrageous.
The Braves were screwed out of the playoffs because of this bullshit call.
Bad call, but still down by 3 with 5 outs remaining without it. Don't over-think it.
they totally could have come back. they were about to if the umps didnt fudge this call
bnumber8
The 2003 Florida Marlins were down by 3 with 5 outs remaining, and ended up scoring 8 runs because of a good no-call of fan interference... I rest my case, good night
you have no clue...
its not like they would have won anything, anyway. Atlanta fans don't deserve a winner. Biggest bunch of fairweather motherfuckers around.
im a nationals fan and really cant stand the braves but bravo for them i would throw shit too thats a terrible call its their way of protesting game good for them
Don't worry we hate you to
Grant Gilcrease thats what makes this fun
My dad shouted at the tv that day it was hilarious but I feel like we could have won that game if that call would have been overturned
LeKiley Boazman i ABSOLUTELY agree with that
+LeKiley Boazman You could have won it after the bad call too
I love how they said that it was in bad taste for Braves fans to throw things on the field. Imagine if that had had happened to the Yankeee,s, Mets, Red Sox....it would have been mayhem
Seriously!!!
One time when I was in high school, we had a game where we had bases loaded with no outs. The batter hit a pop up right in front of the catcher and he missed it and it landed fair, but the umpires didn’t see infield fly, so our runners ran and the catcher stopped on home for the force out. Then our coach was telling the umpire that’s supposed to be an infield fly, because if they said it and our runners still ran, he would’ve been safe at home since it would no longer be a force out. Then the umpire said he did say it, even though everyone on the field knows he didn’t, including the other team. But then the umpire said the run doesn’t score because the catcher tagged him which he did not. So it ended up being a double play when it should’ve been a run scored with one out
MLB version of the 'tuck rule'.
That's a great way of putting it. Technically, both calls were correct, though both still draw ire from fans.
By the way, this was a correct infield fly call. The rules say nothing about the ball having to be in the infield. They just say that an infielder has to be able to catch it with normal effort, with runners on 1st and 2nd and less than 2 outs.
@@zachellinthorpe1277But that wasn’t ordinary effort…look how far back Kozma went and he still missed it. The infield fly rule is there to protect the baserunners not the fielders.
who’s here after the cardinals meet the braves again in the nlds?
ME!
Cooper Maxedon and the guy who made this call is the crew chief in the series
Wild Card game in 2012 though, so this time it's not that stupid one-then-done, so calls like this wouldn't affect everything (unless it's a 2-2 series in game 5, and by that point both will have had their chances repeatedly).
Sam Holbrook is. He's the crew chief in this series! I was so angry when I saw that. Haha
Jack Son it’s a 2-2 series 👀
Here after the Nationals call just to remind everyone what a clown Holbrook is
IKR
Why does he even get to ump postseason games.
He got both calls right... assuming you're referring to the Infield Fly call above and the Runner's Lane Interference call on Turner.
how can an OUTFIELD umpire call an INFIELD fly rule? lmao dumbest thing ive ever heard
any umpire can make the call, it's in the rulebook
+Harry Andrews thats why its the dumbest thing ive ever heard...
Perhaps if you knew ANYTHING about umpiring, you wouldn't consider it the dumbest thing you have ever heard. Learning the rules might help some as well. You seem to be one of those ignorant ones who think an infield fly (as the rule applies) is a ball hit over the infield. DUMB
The infielder was obviously able to get to the ball with ORDINARY effort so it is infield fly rule.
Frith How did you determine it was ordinary effort? If the outfielder had called him off earlier, would that have changed anything? Do you think the infield fly call would still have been made?
I was there. I was 8 I was hit with a beer bottle. I grabbed the beer bottle and threw it on the field.
i kinda believe you but idk man
Terrible call. Here's why:
The infield fly rule is designed to protect the offense from being faked into a double-play. But there is no way a double play could be turned from 80 feet deep into left field. Also, the left fielder was is better position to turn that double play it if were possible; leaving the short-stop's position irrelevant.
What's to stop any infielder from, when less than 2 outs and runners on 1st and 2nd or bases loaded, "making an ordinary effort to be under any fly ball into the outfield and not even having to catch the ball?
Such a shittastic call.
It's the right call. It's just bad luck. The umpires ruled in accordance with the rule - so if there is something wrong here, it is with the rule itself - and plays like this are not so frequent that addressing a rule change is necessary. Again, it's just bad luck. In the vast majority of cases, the infield fly rule works as intended.
And if you don't think that a fielder this deep in the outfield could turn a double play if that was the intent, you don't watch much baseball at this level.
It doesn't matter what the rule was designed for. The only thing that matters is what the rule actually is. The umps made the right call. If you're mad at anyone it should be the MLB for not restricting the boundaries of the rule
Willoughby Krenzteinburg no no it was not the right call
The ball was nowhere near the infield!!! The shortstop had to make a great effort to get the ball. I heard the rule was that the infielder has to make no effort with the ball being catchable by that infielder in order to use the infield fly rule. This doesn’t hit part of that rule! Wow!
Willoughby Krenzteinburg frick you you stupid idiotic punk
People saying this is definitionally within the bounds of the infield fly rule are full of it. The whole point is that it should be within the bounds of an ordinary popup that an infielder can get to within normal circumstances. This was so extra-ordinary that the infielder went far back enough that he believed the left fielder was going to be the one fielding it. It should not fall within the infield fly rule for that alone. It's absurd.
"This is embarrassing for the Atlanta fans"... NO THE FUCK IT'S NOT!!! That was a bullshit call.
+SauceBoss127 "Let's respond by throwing shit onto the field because that'll change the call"
+TheTigerfan99 I wondered if the call was upheld only because of the fans throwing trash, because they didn't want to encourage that sort of thing
+TheTigerfan99 Any crowd of 100k plus people would react that way regardless of sport or fanbase
+Justin Winters it wasnt a crowd of 100k lmao
I'm a serious Cards fan but I could not believe this when it happened, I started laughing. Atlanta got robbed.
Jacob Becker Yeah - but not because the wrong call was made. It is absolutely, without question - the proper call according to the rules. It is unfortunate that the invoking of the rule actually benefited the defense - when it is supposed to prevent the defense from gaining an advantage. There is nothing anyone can do. The infield fly rule has to be called before any play is made on the ball - otherwise, it's purpose is defeated. The call needs to be made for the benefit of the runners, and unfortunately, that is obviously BEFORE you could learn whether or not it benefits the defense. You can't retroactively negate the call because then forces would be reinstated, and you'd have a giant mess. The good thing is, this VERY RARELY happens (infield fly rule benefits defense).
***** How did it not "fit the rules"?
If you think that was an infield fly, you have 0 clue on baseball. I've played in college, coached, and umpired.
It was an error, all day.
@@willoughbykrenzteinburg The reason it very rarely happens is that umpires don't ordinarily call it in these situations, even if, depending on the interpretation of "ordinary effort," it's supposed to be called according to the rules.
The fans had every right to litter the field after a horrible, totally unnecessary decision that cost them big time
No they don't. They could hit someone, and trashing up anything that belongs to the community is WRONG. Braves fans showed nothing, except they have no class.
They have no right to litter the field. The umpires aren't cleaning it up, the braves staff are cleaning it up.
But if you read the rules, it's an infield fly. The umpire doesn't have the option to not apply the rules.
so that is like saying:
A kid has every right to destroy the house if his or her parents voted for someone they didnt agree with.
Stealing 100 pairs of shoes, three TVS, five BlueRay players, burning stores,beating up white people if a police beat up a black person
Punching a five year old on the face because he spilled grape juice on your white carpet.
Debate me please.
No, Atlanta just has a horrible fan base thats all
For those who didn't know like me: "An Infield Fly is a fair fly ball (not a line drive or bunt) that, in the judgment of the umpire, can be caught by an infielder, pitcher, or catcher with ordinary effort and when there are runners on first and second or first, second, and third and less than two outs."
I still don't understand.
The point is, the fielder in such a situation is expected to catch the ball, therefore the baserunners usually tag up with the ball in the infield. If such a ball were to be INTENTIONALLY dropped, the fielding team then has the opportunity to turn a double play, putting the baserunners in an impossible position, as if they instead were to advance and the ball is caught, they could easily be forced out on trying to return to their original base, also a double play. (For deep fly balls, the baserunners have more time and could respond appropriately to either play by waiting halfway, at least avoiding the double play, as you see Dan Uggla doing.)
*The infield fly rule states that if the umpire calls a ball as an infield fly, and that ball is subsequently dropped, the batter is out.* Since the batter is out either way, they're not a runner, so the baserunners can freely tag up. This is only important if a double play is meaningful, hence the less than two outs restriction.
The shortstop, an infielder, was under the ball for a while, so technically this call can be made; however, the call violates the spirit of the rule, which is to avoid giving the fielding team an unfair advantage. The fly ball was high enough that the infielder had time to get under the ball, but he wasn't close enough to third base to even attempt a play, let alone try for a double play. Furthermore, the call was too late for the baserunners to return to their original bases and await the outcome of the play.
As it was the rule ended up giving an unfair advantage to the fielding team. This call should've been reversed given the clear miscommunication between the fielders trying to catch the ball and the lateness of the call. Umpires should be able to use replays to determine this; I have no idea if that's the case nowadays.
It's the right call. The fly doesn't have to be in the actual infield. It's the judgement of the umpire that dictates whether or not the defense could be at an advantage for getting a double play ball by not catching the fly. At the MLB level, it could easily be done with the skill of those players.
David Wilson saying flatly "it's the right call" is too ambitious; say rather "it's a legitimate call" since that's what you then describe it as: a judgement call, one within the letter of the law that could go either way. My belief is that it was unfair to make the call so late, since that defeats the purpose of the rule: to allow baserunners to tag up without having to await the outcome of the play. The arm went up like a half-second before the drop.
If, as you claim, the call was necessary to remove an unfair advantage, it should then have been impossible for an intentional drop to be followed by a throw to base for an out. If you think their skill level is high enough to accomplish this, there would have been a double play BECAUSE of the late call. That would really have been wrong.
Arcadian infield fly is to be called so a fielder can’t purposes miss a ball and get multiple people out. Umpires call infield fly on balls that go into the outfield all the time especially at this level because the guys have cannons for arms.
Bob Trenwith I don't have any real experience with major league infield flies being called in different parts of the field. If it's as you say and it's always called this late, I have trouble seeing how the rule in place is any better than having no rule at all. Best case scenario, it inserts an umpire decision where having one would make no real difference to the outcome of the play. Worst case is something like what happened here, having a runner called out without there ever having been any real opportunity to put him out.
That said, there's gotta be a decent reasoning as to why it's been there for a century, and I don't really get it.
I remember this like it was yesterday and this was bullshit
Frank Matthews this and the 91 world series when Ron Gant got pulled of the back was probably the 2 of the worst calls in baseball
@@dawgsfan1196 I still remember the Ron Gant thing. I was barely 6 at the time and didn't really understand what was going on, but I remember my dad and older brother were really pissed about it (and now that I'm older, yeah, that call was 100% bullshit).
why do you add extra umps for the playoffs? it's pure stupidity, and this was proof of how damaging adding extra umps can be
I agree with you but It really does not matter though for that play. Even the first base umpire should see it as an error.
Jon Smith The extra umps down the lines should only be there for fair/foul, catch/non-catch calls...nothing else...
Jon Smith with replay being in MLB now they should get rid of them extra two. The main reason they were there is fair/foul, fan interference, and homerun calls. All which are reviewable.
Jon Smith it can be good at times on a foul or soething like that
Is hard to believe there are still comments about this IF controversy (clearly there were grounds for debate). As the commentator with Joe Simpson (R. Darling I think) stated that night..."with extra umpires there may be extra calls"...interesting statement. As for the call, those trying very hard to defend it (including H. Reynolds), many have stated the distance in the outfield (about 55 ft) where the ball dropped should not be considered in whether it was a proper IF, however, the distance does have bearing on the application of "ordinary effort". Once the Cardinal SS planted his feet and looked up and KNEW he had no play, my assessment is that's where the ordinary effort ended, and thus no IF to call. Based on the side angle replay, these runners needed NO "protection" from getting forced or doubled up in the absence of the call. They could have performed handstands on way to the next base. Much too late to harp on, but to close enjoyed J. Simpson's comment the weekend Sun Life Park opened...on one of the games he announced "the 3rd base umpire is Sam Holbrook...hopefully there won't be any infield fly's".
I am not a Braves fan but that was one of the worst calls I have seen. That was clearly the middle of the outfield.
kevin connerYet another "backseat" umpire who has zero knowledge of the rules. The ball can be hit to the outfield and still be ruled an infield fly for the purposes of this rule. The ball can even be caught BY AN OUTFIELDER, and the rule would still apply - - as long as an infielder COULD HAVE made a play on the ball with ordinary effort. The argument that the ball was in the outfield is irrelevant. ANYONE can see that it was in the outfield. Do you really think that an MLB umpire missed that? No. What you are missing is that the fact that the ball is in the outfield is irrelevant.
Oh golly gee Willoughby. If the Braves played the game under protest. Do you think a major league manager would do that knowing the rules. That was clearly an outfield play. He missed the ball. Its more likely an error and he is on base. Wow you are just so awesome.
kevin conner "Do you think a major league manager would do that knowing the rules."
Yes, I do. If you don't know otherwise, you don't watch much baseball. Games are played under protest for a variety of reasons. The manager's beef was that the intent of the rule is to prevent the defense from exploiting a situation where they could turn an easy double play. The problem is that the invoking of the rule BENEFITED the defense. I would agree whole-heartedly that the rule's intent was not for situations like this. I agree with the manager, and I would have played under protest as well.
However, to win the protest would have required a rewording of the rule - because as it is worded, the correct call was made.
By the way, I'll use your same logic. You asked if I thought that the manager would have played under protest knowing the rules. How about this question :
Did he win his protest? No. So, do you think the league would have upheld the call when the improper call was made?
Use some common sense.
The rule specifically states that the infield fly rule shall be ruled as such on the sole basis of whether or not an infielder COULD HAVE caught the ball with ordinary effort - NOT by some arbitrary 'line' such as the outfield grass or any other criteria. So the fact that it was in the outfield, or "so far" into the outfield is irrelevant because - BY RULE - the area where the ball is - is categorically omitted from consideration by the rule. This could not be made ANY CLEARER. And sometime, the managers don't know the rules. It's possible.
And if this isn't enough for you, how about a quote from the infielder who was in this play?
"I bailed at the last second. I thought [the ruling] was the right call. I am an infielder. I went back and was camped under it. I just bailed at last second."
Gee Willy. I didn't insult you. Of course games are played under protest for a variety of reasons. That ball was clearly over a 100 feet in the outfield. Distance from home plate to deepest infield at second is 127/feet. Clearly in outfield territory. Not infiled. It was an outfield play. Turn an easy double play. If the ball was more shallow I could agree with you but not that deep. It was an outfield play the infield fly rule not in effect.
kevin conner
You aren't listening. WHERE THE BALL IS - is irrelevant - by rule. The ONLY criteria is whether or not an infielder could have caught it with ordinary effort. This is the last time I'm saying it. If you don't get it, you don't get it. You're being muted.
This was one of the worst moments I've ever experienced as a Braves fan. This was just about the turning point where we turned into one of the worst teams in baseball. This really haunts me to this day. I was literally heartbroken for several months after this, and this unfortunately was the end of Chipper's career. sad. And the really bad part is that the protest was ignored by Joe Torre. I still am a little shaken over this 5 years later.
Braves won the NL East the very next season.
@@Shawn6751😂😂😂
As a Cardinals fan for my entire life, this is one of the worst calls ever. Would it have affected the game? Perhaps. We'll never know. But I hate the fact that we had got an out because of that
you are 100% wrong.
Joseph Kleen | How is an objectively correct call "one of the worst calls ever"? Learn the rule.
MrFetus1 no you are
The announcer says he made the call immediately, but he didn't until the last second when the shortstop was bailing out...
The shortstop bailed out because he heard the umpire yell, "Infield Fly!" It was loud, so he mistook that for the left fielder calling him off. Even the announcers noted this once. Everyone pretends this didn't happen, but it's clear from the replay that is what happened. This is the dumbest "controversy" in baseball history.
@@rthorat BS, that is complete fake news!!! He bailed out because he thought Holiday had it! That is a total lie man, its not good to lie
@@rthorateven if that’s true, the umpire waiting until the last second to call it. The rule states it should be immediate
@@Scottydontbutscottydoes The rule is that the umpire calls it immediately upon making a determination it applies. This is what the umpire did.
@@rthorat No he did not call it immediately, all these years later and you are STILL a liar
Well now we have a new bad call to rob the Braves, because now it’s legal to not touch him plate and be safe, and rob the Braves of a win.
This was Chipper's last season too. I don't blame the Braves fans
It's funny how many people in the comments don't know the infield fly rule, never bothered to look it up, yet are convinced the umpires made the wrong call.
Amen
As a cardinals fan I'm not even surprised that Pete kozma dropped that ball
Testing the system
He didn't drop it. He was called off by Holliday.
@@M1IRONMIKE Affirm, ball dropped in LF like a pitching wedge lands on the 15th green. Kozma didn't ever locate where this TX Leaguer would come down, so he didn't have anything to drop. And contrary to what many incompetent commentators have claimed, the Holliday loafer didn't "call off" Kozma. He just slowed with his glove to his chest and watched ball drop...very poor effort by a veteran outfielder.
The wording of the infield fly rule is that the infielder would have to be able to catch the ball with ordinary effort. Unfortunately, it doesn't discriminate with where the ball is hit.
“An infield fly is any fair fly ball (not including a line drive or a bunt) which can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort when first and second or first, second and third base are occupied, before two men are out.”
His effort could be seen as appropriate given the speed at which he approached the ball, but his positioning says otherwise - if Kozma never went after the ball, it wouldn’t be considered an infield fly
Only if Greg Gibsion was At Home Plate
Jay Killa he could have motioned to both players
and the dodgers would have been celebrating in their dugout
Brutal call
+Chase M Atlanta fans with no knowledge of the rules think it was a brutal call when in fact it was the correct call.
Incorrect.. The SS ran about 20-25 steps.. Wasn't camped under the ball. Nothing says that you expect a catch right there. And he backed off, thinking the OUTFIELDER had it. That was no infield fly. Awful call.
+Alan Hess you are an idiot. it doesn't matter which team that went against. the shortstop was playing outfielder. he screwed up. the left fielder couldn't recover. thankfully for the shortstop, an inept umpire made the worst call of his career.
hell...you probably think Obama is the best President ever.
You're an absolute fool if you think that calling an infield fly was the correct thing when the infielder had to make an EXTRAORDINARY play to have caught that ball.
the ump got it wrong. period.
+Alan Hess
It was the wrong call. You will now edit your silly comments to reflect this immediately.
Alan Hess whatever man. Have you actually seen the play?!?
it is the right call, an infied fly is a routine catch for an infielder no matter where the ball is, if it is routine then it is infield fly rule
Nothing routine about that, sorry but no, awful call
@@indycastletonjonahinarizon8380 fielder sat under it for a second and then backed off at last second because the outfielder called him off. That’s a routine play for a big leaguer.
@@reginaldryder3252 well you don’t reward a defense for miscommunication, no no
I'm a cards fan, but this call was complete bullshit...
Explosive Magic What about it was bullshit?
Willoughby Krenzteinburg It was in shallow outfield...
Explosive Magic
And? Are you under the impression that a ball hit in the outfield can't be subject to the infield fly rule? You'd be wrong if that's the case. Perhaps you should take all this energy you're currently using to scream bullshit and target it at the nearest MLB rulebook to educate yourself on the rule.
+Willoughby Krenzteinburg its called the INFIELD fly rule for a reason dude. now I know you're probably going to comeback with a 5 paragraph argument against me like you've done to every single other person thats posted in the comment section but I'm sorry to say that nobody believes you or this call and you really need to just shut the fuck up and go do something else lmao
+Flagrant Liam You should read the rule and stop making yourself look like the idiot you are. As long as an infielder can catch the ball with ordinary effort, it is an infield fly no matter where it comes down.
I'm a huge Cardinals fan. But that was wrong call. It was miscommunication between them.
It doesn't matter if it was a miss communication and infielder was able to make and easy play on the ball it's an infield fly it doesn't have to be in the infield to be an infield fly
+See See that makes no sense
\
ufcmanable It doesn't have to make sense to YOU. He's right. Read the damn rule.
I know he's right but the rule doesn't make sense to anyone. Whats the point of calling it the infield fly rule if you are gonna call it when its in the outfield.
ufcmanable
What would you call it? The easy double play pop up rule? It's just a term. It relates to infielders and whether or not they can make a play on the ball, so maybe you could call it the infielder fly rule. It's just a term. If you know the rule, it shouldn't make a difference what you call it.
My problem with this is how late the call was. If you're going to make that judgment call, then make it. His hand didn't go up until after the infielder broke off his attempt. To me this feels like an extra umpire who wanted something to do.
And yes, the terrible defense by the Braves lost this game. Though the call didn't help.
I'm a Cardinal fan since 1967. And that was an awful call. The infield fly rule was designed to not allow an infielder to intentionally drop the ball and thus turn a double play, which obviously, OBVIOUSLY, wasn't the case here. Matt Holliday in left should've called off Kozma and raced in to make the catch himself.
You are correct that Matt should have kept moving forward and not become a "Holliday loafer". He had the time to get under this one. Kozma, on the other hand, didn't ever locate where ball would drop. No wonder he stepped forward after his "pivot"...("bailed" as some have said) and could only hope MH would cover for him.
Help me out here. Is the infield fly rule just a judgment call, or is there a distance behind the infield where it applies?
By MLB Infield Fly definition, there is no arbitrary limit either distance in outfield or how close ball may drop near either foul line. On any fair fly ball (with runners aboard as noted under IF), umpires are to rule whether the fielder can make the catch under the term "ordinary effort"...a single-sentence definition that can be broadly interpreted. As one umpire from MD stated years ago, ordinary effort is difficult to define..."it's up to the umpires" to judge. What made this play (in 2012) so controversial is neither SS nor LF were able to accurately judge where this ball would drop, it landed neatly between both of them. It's no wonder why the application of ordinary effort has been in dispute on this play.
@@captainc7160the short stop knew exactly where the ball was going to drop- he was camped under it lol. The reason he “gave up” on it was because he thought the left fielder called him off. The correct call was made.
I'm glad the fans did that. As long as no one gets hurt idc it was a bad call and let them know about it.
The Cardinals pay off umpires The Right Way®
Louis Greubel The Cardinals curse out anonymous internet folk The Right Way®
Oh, and they pay off umpires The Right Way® too. So there's that....
Braves fan alert
Cardinals fans make excuses for their cheating team The Right Way®
Give me one example of the cards cheating
The Cardinals question the obvious The Right Way®
Even as a Cardinals fan, I gotta say, that was probably the most GENEROUS call ever.
0:12 A rare sighting of Dan Uggla
On base no less!
So many protocols to make sure the call gets made right, and it still wasn't...
One of the worst blown calls by the umps in playoff history.
It's not even an incorrect call.
Willoughby Krenzteinburg It is though, when the ball is well into the outfield calling an infield fly is a blown call.
Damien Demento The infield fly rule is in no way limited by the distance it is hit. Only by the effort required of the infielder to make a play on it. You're wrong. The rule specifically omits where the ball is hit from consideration. How far it is into the infield is entirely irrelevant and specifically stated as irrelevant in the rule.
+Willoughby Krenzteinburg dude its called an INFIELD fly! the ball was well into the outfield. if the outfielder would have made a play on the ball the ump wouldve never called it
Ahmad Simmons incorrect. The rule specifically states that an infield fly rule can and should be called if an outfielder makes the play, if - in the umpire's judgement - an infielder could have made the play just as easily.
You don't know the rule. Period.
You people who think that the umpire here did not know, or missed the fact that the ball was clearly well into the outfield are morons. No umpire would ever miss a call that badly. The truth is, the fact that the ball is hit well into the outfield is IRRELEVANT, and the rule states as much - clearly saying that WHERE the ball is hit is not to be considered. Only the effort required of the infielder to make a play. Another period.
Outfield Fly Rule lol
The outfield really doesn't have an effect on the rule as long as the infielder can make an ordinary effort to make the catch which Kozma did not
That is not an infield fly rule that is more than little effort to catch that ball
Omg the umps just called a horrible call again 🤬🤬🤬🤬
This was Chipper Jones' last game. Such an unfortunate sendoff for one of the most beloved Braves players in history...
One of the most beloved players in history*
I am a die hard BRAVES fan. And this is the hardest I have ever raged at my TV over a sporting event.
Do you also rage when an umpire correctly tells a batter to take his base after ball four as well? At least you'd be consistent then.
Only when the umpire misses an obvious strike that was called a ball.
Implying that was the correct call when it wasn't.
that call still makes me mad to this day. It shouldn't have been an called infield fly
dawgsfan1196 Why not?
world series 2019 game 6 lmao
And it was the same ump Holbrook again.
I'm a huge cardinals fan and I still think that was one of the worst calls ever
Creed glad you’re smart, I cannot believe how many people on this thread think that was a good call
This plus that "obstruction" call are proof that the Cardinals get ALL the calls. And I'm a White Sox fan. I just call it like I see it. The Cardinals get EVERY call ALL the time.
The obstruction call was compeltely obvious. I am a cards fan but this calll was horrible
Bruh you saw the 1987 world series against the royals, and that balk this year with madison bumgardner
The obstruction call was right that was the right call but this call was bad
Dude you don't know what your saying, I mean yes we Cardinals got those two calls, but look, The world series game against the Royals, we did not get our way, and the balk by MadBum, so it shows we don't ALWAYS get our way.
Of course they get all the calls that's why I hate them
The Infield fly rule is the most confusing thing in baseball. More than a balk even
new rule: IF A BALL IS HIT TO THE OUTFIELD JUST SEND THE INFIELDER TO GET IT, AUTOMATIC OUT WHETHER ITS CAUGHT OR NOT.😵😵
I'm a Braves fan and a Green Bay Packers fan. I had to live with this call and the Fail Mary call. I'm also a Sacramento Kings fan and remember 2002 very vividly.
No way bruh that’s gotta be a troll 💀
@@JJDaSaintsFanThat's the other breed of Yankee-Cowboys-Lakers fans
Seriously. I have a hard time believing someone would be a fan of teams in atlanta, sacramento, and green bay randomly. @@JJDaSaintsFan
@@placeholdermcgavinport5343 Automatically better than Chiefs-Warriors-Astros fans.
Totally infield fly. 70+ feet out in the outfield = infield, right guys?
Your statement has nothing to do with anything. You just don't know the rule. Show me where in the rule it must be in the infield.
Alan Hess
Okay. I don't do this often but I will today. I researched it, and yes technically this is an infield fly rule. "Any fair fly ball that could be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort is covered by the rule, whether or not it is in the infield, and whether or not an infielder catches it, or even attempts to catch it. For example, if an infielder retreats to the outfield in an effort to catch a fly ball, the infield fly rule may be invoked because the ball could have been caught by the infielder. Similarly, infield fly may also be called if an outfielder runs into the infield to catch a fly ball, if it could have been caught by an infielder with ordinary effort." My apologies for not researching this before I commented. I guess I always just figured by the name it must be a ball in the infield.
Captain_of_Solitude You have earned a great deal of respect from me by simply taking the time to research the rule. I have a problem with those that are berating the umpires for following the rule book. You would be surprised by the things that people do not know about the rules to the game. I find it rather ignorant for those people to comment without being knowledgeable of the rules.
Alan Hess I know the letter of the rules. Ordinary effort in determining the fly rule. But this is not the case. Both infielder and outfielder had difficulty in that fly ball. Not an "infield fly" possibility. So the infield fly rule is OUT. Once again, im not hating the umpire in this call. Cause I have called many of them. But I never went that far to call anything like that.
Wilcey Whatweekindo I gotta disagree. The short stop was under the ball and waving off other fielders. That would have been a catch by Kozma, with ordinary effort by a major league player. I think it's apparent that he thought he heard the left fielder call him off and that's when the ball dropped. You may have gone that far if you were working pro ball.
Worst fucking call in baseball
+Guitar TV not even close lol it was actually the right call just late. The infielder was camped.
+Jacob Downhour (Sagestone) just because he was camped under it doesn't mean that you can call infield fly, the rule is to stop players from dropping the ball to get a double play, but that's pretty hard in the outfield. The call was bad not the timing you idiot.
+Jacob Downhour (Sagestone) Would this be the same rule say if the left fielder fell and got injured, and the infielder wound up camped BEHIND the outfielder, would it still be infield fly? Or if the ball was say 3/4 of the way to the wall and the infielder was camped, would it be an infield fly?
Was absolutely shocked that the fans at this game didn't run into the field and skin the umps alive. I was there, chopping the whole way, and was absolutely LIVID with this call.
Worst. Call. Ever.
@Phallus E
INcorrect call.
Who’s here after they did it again against the Phillies in 2023?
As weird as it looks it was the right call. The announcers are wrong, there is no such thing as a ball being too deep for the infield fly rule. An infielder can go 200 feet out to catch a ball and it's ruled a pop out on the infield. So since Kozma was under the ball it's the right call, because he gave up on it makes no difference once the call is made.
jcdixon97 The problem is the umpire didn't call it infield fly until AFTER Kozma had given up on it. Put it on 0.25x speed and watch from 2:58 to 3:02 Kozma goes back gives up and then the ump's hand goes up. I'm a Cards fan, but this call is fishy.
+jcdixon97 The problem isn't that the infielder was under the ball. The problem is that it was called. The infield fly rule is put in place to keep an infielder from intentionally dropping a ball and turning a double play. Now I don't know what that umpire was thinking, but I don't see any possible way that a double play could have been turned in that situation. That's the only reason that call should ever be made and in this instance, it was definitely not the right call.
+Stephen Goodier Although that is indeed the motivation for the existence of the IFR, it is not stated in the rule itself, beyond the fact that there must be a force out at third possible and the ball has to be easy to catch by an infielder, so I don't think the fact that he could not have turned a double play had he dropped the ball (in the absence of the IFR) can be appealed to, "legalistically"
If Kozma had EVER been under the ball, he'd have caught it and we wouldn't have ANY controversy...once ball is in hand and IF call or not, runners have to get back.
Still one of the worst calls I have ever seen. Just awful.
I'm glad they threw trash on the field! Thats the only way to make it VERY clear that the ump fucked up.
Actually, he didn't f up. An Infield Fly is a fair fly ball (not a line drive or bunt) that, in the judgment of the umpire, can be caught by an infielder, pitcher, or catcher with ordinary effort and when there are runners on first and second or first, second, and third and less than two outs." www.wusa.org/page/show/487073-what-is-the-infield-fly-rule-and-why-do-they-have-it-
If you apply the infield fly rule in such way that it hurts the offense you've fucked up.
I remembered watching this game I didn’t know baseball rules at that time . Now I’m here knowing the rules just wow they really messed us up. 🤦🏽♂️🤦🏽♂️
7 years later and I'm still pissed!!!
and stupid ....
@@myrandomsh1t692 well thank you, that means a lot to me....
@@myrandomsh1t692 The infielder has to catch with ordinary effort. Going all the way to the outfield while back-pedaling is NOT ordinary effort.
No infield fly.
@@paul-baseballcollector this is very much ordinary effort for a major leaguer …. In FACT … he stopped and would have caught the ball easily if he didn’t peel off ….
@@myrandomsh1t692 Your comments reflect your name and knowledge of this play. This SS (Kozma) did not at any point position himself for a catch (shaded lanes of green confirm this to the core)...Yep, he peeled off short of the spot needed. What you stated above is not a FACT!. ."would have" is an opinion...poorly based.
Remember this game like it was yesterday what a game
Who just got this in their recommended in 2019 before the NLDS between the BRAVES AND CARDS? Not to mention, its the same head umpire for this 2019 NLDS series that was the head umpire in this video! Crazy.
Philip Rowe yeah I can’t believe that. That’s stupidity. Any funny business from Holbrook and I guarantee you it turns into this times about 20
MLB has a sick sense of humour
I wish I would've been there to throw a $15 beer at the umps lol
I remember this very clearly. Being a life long braves fan me and my buddy couldn't believe this on tv. Watching the horrible call then the debris on the field. Still can't believe to this day. We've had a lot here in ATL, but this is one if not the worst moment in Atlanta sports histort
History
Correct call !
+blarsonjr sorry it wasn't, he lost the ball in the lights so it wouldn't really be described as an "ordinary" play.
Go Phillies!
Embarrassing for fans? Those announcers are SUCH MLB homers. This is MLB black eye all the way. Fans had EVERY right to protest by throwing things on the field. They paid premium coin and got delivered pop warner umps.
Its very clear that the Cardinals fielders were trying to catch the ball, not letting it drop and turning it into a double play. I mean they did nothing when the ball hit the ground instead of picking it up for a double play. Absolutely terrible call by the umpires and it should be ruled simply as an error.
Sam Holbrook, the same umpire that called the infield rule from this game, is now the crew chief for the Cardinals/Braves NLDS Series for this year.
This umprire who made this call also made controversial call in tonights WS game
The worst thing is that this was how chipper ended his career.
Two Points:
1) I'm a Braves fan. I was there. While this call did suck, and was the wrong call, what REALLY killed the Braves was a routine, double-play grounder to Chipper Jones that he gobbled up and promptly threw 21 feet over the second baseman's head into right field, allowing a big scoring inning for the Cardinals rather than an inning-killing double play. The Braves were up 1-0 at the time. That killed them. They dug their own grave on Chipper's error. Who knows what would have happened had the right call been made. We would have still been down. The call was wrong, which brings me to my second point,...
2) The announcer was WRONG, WRONG, WRONG when he said several times, "This is an embarrassment for Braves fans. No, it wasn't. Was it ideal? Hell no. But for years Braves fans have heard how vanilla they are.........how they are lame.......how much they don't really care. Personally, I loved seeing them get this passionate about what they felt, accurately, was a sh*t call that hurt their team. Again, I was there. It gave me goose bumps. I hated the call. I hated Chipper's error. But I can't say I hated the Braves reaction, and I certainly was not "embarrassed."
I am a Mets fan and obviously have been the victim of the Braves crushing us over the years. That being said this is still probably one of the worst calls in the history of the MLB and the Braves were robbed.
It was catchable with reasonable effort and the defenseman blew it.
It landed 100 ft in the outfield though. LF umpire never called it until after the ball landed too. Normally IF umpires call that right away.
Which is why the call was BS
@2:58 dude clearly sees that it's halfway in the outfield before making the call. Anyone wanna check his betting history that night?
Earlier in the game the ump granted time to a Braves batter after the pitch was already being thrown. The very next pitch was a homerun. The way I saw it, this call evened it out.