Opinionated Voyager Episode Guide finds the Doctor trying to improve himself, only to turn into a monster. Turns out Nietzsche was right about fighting them.
I fond the science in it bad even by Who standards, and the characters were fairly unlikeable too. And that 'choice'. The forest episode that came soon after was bad too.
Now I want to see a skit or even a whole episode where Janeway is just talking with a bunch of other grizzled Delta Quadrant captains telling tall tales in a competition for who has seen the most bizarre shit. Pretty sure we know who would win in the end.
And now I'm imagining a captain who had a run-in with Janeway telling the story of the bizarre things that said run-in involved and her not being sure if they're embellishing the story or not.
But who would win if she was sitting at that table with Kirk, Picard, and Sisko? I think Jean-Luc would give her some stiff competition. Though Nazi-planet, and giant amoeba, are seriously noteworthy.
@@mikegates8993 'Arrr, there be many wondrous and terrible thing in this quadrant; the Borg, the Caretaker... but all captains know to turn their ships around when they see the Dread Ship Voyager, which is said to be captained by a lady so evil that hell itself spat her back out!'
I'll give credit where credit where credit is due. You brought up Ghandi's very human flaws and presented them objectively without painting him with devil horns in a blatant and manipulative clickbait picture.
I find it funny the fake moon is a tall tale despite space monsters that size being in Star Trek constantly. Also, I like the doctor as a vehicle for this story. It takes what could have been a plot hole, what do Byron and Gandhi have to do with medicine or being a doctor, and turns it into something easily explainable. Of course the doc would want the “best” personalities to be part of him regardless of how well they fit his stated goal since he’s so arrogant.
This episode actually makes me wonder. If an AI like the Doctor modifies his programing either intentionally or accidentally, and that altered version of him does something illegal, then would that be considered not guilty by reason of insanity, or would he be liable?
An interesting question. I assume lawyers would start by looking at existing laws regarding humans who committed crimes while under the influence of alcohol, drugs, brain parasites, a cult's brainwashing etc., and how liability changes depending on if the drugs or alcohol were taken intentionally or administered by someone else. The problem gets more knotty when the A.I. deliberately altered its code, but did not intend the negative outcome; if the issue is that the alteration introduced an unexpected flaw into the neural network that could not be foreseen due to the emergent nature of machine learning. It's similar to a physician prescibing an anti-depressant or administering life-saving medication or brainsurgery for a brain tumour, which then has unexpected side-effects due to the patient's unique genetic makeup/physiology or an allergic reaction that makes the patient i.e. enter a manic phase.
Depends on whether the Doctor has free will. Voyager is written very much on the premise that he does, in which case his programming can’t determine his actual choices, just his available choices. The various things that you could do in any given situation are limited both by your capacities (what you know how to do) and the value judgments you’ve integrated into your subconscious (what occurs to you to do). Spock is right to say in Court Martial that it would be impossible for Kirk to act out of panic or malice in a crisis; he has shaped his character in such a way that the thought of doing what he’s accused of wouldn’t even occur to him. But those determine which options are available to you, not what you actually choose to do. If we accept The Doctor as a being with a volitional consciousness, then adding additional programming just widens his options. He can gain additional capacities *or* change the set of possible courses of action that appear to him, but he’s still responsible for the consequences if he makes bad choices. Incidentally I think the second constraint-the one imposed by your subconscious, limiting the set of options that occur to you-is crucially important and incredibly interesting for a synthetic lifeform. It takes a long time and a lot of effort to reprogram your subconscious-that’s what building your character consists of-but a volitional computer could alter it much more quickly and deliberately, so their character would be even more directly a product of their choices than it is for man. And you’d absolutely have to do it in order not to be caught in computationally expensive analysis paralysis. But the range of the set “These are the things I could do which would not be irrelevant to the situation, obviously stupid, or against my ethical code” could vary wildly, and restricting that set would have enormous implications on the character of the computer.
I think it might have been cool to include somebody from another era of Trek to act as an inspiration for the Doctor, like Spock or Picard. Fun opportunity for a cameo and continuity nod, and given the episode’s theme you could do the Enemy Within thing, showing how that person’s apparently negative qualities help make them who they are.
I feel like the Doctor attempting to murder a dude, torturing, threatening, and cajoling another dude, chemically paralyzing and threatening torture of a crewmate, and kidnapping, assaulting, and attempting to murder-suicide ANOTHER crewmate would probably get him either permanently turned off or at least reset to baseline personality.
When I first saw this episode when it first came out, I only saw bits and pieces of it because I was very tired. Though I was confused as to why the Doctor was in a cranky mood and had B'Elanna restrained. Also I misheard Tuvok talking about the attack on Zahir and thought he was talking about the (now former) African country of Zaire which I found very puzzling given they were on the other side of the galaxy. Fortunately I watched the full episode the following day when I was more awake and all confusion was cleared up.
I was waiting for one, and then Chuck went on to relate how he forbade his wife's (potentially life saving) use of penicillin. Then I was very glad Chuck had refrained.
I've mentioned before in these comments that "Kill the Moon" is the episode that ended my relationship with the new _Doctor Who,_ but even I think you pummeled it a little excessively here. Maybe because it's less that I think the idea is out of bounds than that it was the execution of the idea that was so flawed. Though I grant that both can be true.
If she's old enough to leave home to join _Voyager's_ crew, I think she's old enough to choose sex. Are the Ocampa supposed to go extinct because they die of old age before most humans hit puberty?
"Saying the moon is an egg is a f_ing stupid idea." Easily one of the dumbest Dr. Who episodes I've seen, that's for sure. It didn't even have anything fun, witty, creative, or scary to keep me invested. Just a really dumb plot that on top of the usual tv skewering of science, shows that the Who writers yet again fail to understand nuclear weapons. Edit: is the BBC's legal department what's keeping you from covering that episode?
Ah yes, the Moon is an egg for something monstrous, a classic story...not kidding, I've seen this in like a half a dozen places. From Super Friends to EVO: The 4.6 Billion Year Journey, and even some actually creepy content like Local 58 here on youtube.
Thanks for reminding me why I detested Voyager back in the day - it's BORING. 2-dimensional characters in non-imaginative scenarios irritating captain voice squeaky-clean starfleet blah blah blah. If only Tuvok had farted in the lift onroute to the bridge every so often (side effect of Neelix putting too many Talaxian spices in his plomeek soup) = EXCITEMENT!
"Saying the moon is an egg is a fucking stupid idea."
Damn, that's a deep cut to Doctor Who.
Honestly its a tossup for me on whether or not Kill the Moon or Hell Bent is the worst of the 12th Doctor.
It's not that bad an idea... it's ridiculous and implausible to be certain.
I fond the science in it bad even by Who standards, and the characters were fairly unlikeable too. And that 'choice'. The forest episode that came soon after was bad too.
I want to shell out to get Kill the Moon reviewed for that comment alone...
But saying a moon is a planet buster is good. That's what the *other voices* are telling me.
Poor Doc... he should've used Fred Rogers as a template, that would've been more then a safe bet.
Yes! And mix in a bit of Bob Ross for good measure
"Mmmm, hows my hands feel, neighbor?"
Now I want to see a skit or even a whole episode where Janeway is just talking with a bunch of other grizzled Delta Quadrant captains telling tall tales in a competition for who has seen the most bizarre shit. Pretty sure we know who would win in the end.
And now I'm imagining a captain who had a run-in with Janeway telling the story of the bizarre things that said run-in involved and her not being sure if they're embellishing the story or not.
But who would win if she was sitting at that table with Kirk, Picard, and Sisko? I think Jean-Luc would give her some stiff competition. Though Nazi-planet, and giant amoeba, are seriously noteworthy.
So a Delta Quadrant version of the Monty Python sketch where everyone is trying to compete at whose poverty was worse?
@@Redrally The Four Yorkshiremen.
@@mikegates8993 'Arrr, there be many wondrous and terrible thing in this quadrant; the Borg, the Caretaker... but all captains know to turn their ships around when they see the Dread Ship Voyager, which is said to be captained by a lady so evil that hell itself spat her back out!'
I can't even remember this episode But I still remember naked Neelix in the tub.
Why has God forsaken me, why must I suffer so.
Voyager season3: 50% made of episodes I forget about in an hour.
I absolutely love these videos that you may thank you for taking the time and energy to make these. I really appreciate it.
The Mom joke was great. Evil Janeway is hilarious
I'll give credit where credit where credit is due. You brought up Ghandi's very human flaws and presented them objectively without painting him with devil horns in a blatant and manipulative clickbait picture.
I find it funny the fake moon is a tall tale despite space monsters that size being in Star Trek constantly.
Also, I like the doctor as a vehicle for this story. It takes what could have been a plot hole, what do Byron and Gandhi have to do with medicine or being a doctor, and turns it into something easily explainable. Of course the doc would want the “best” personalities to be part of him regardless of how well they fit his stated goal since he’s so arrogant.
Eh, not really. I can't recall any barring the Aeomba, and wasn't that only a Connie size?
This episode actually makes me wonder. If an AI like the Doctor modifies his programing either intentionally or accidentally, and that altered version of him does something illegal, then would that be considered not guilty by reason of insanity, or would he be liable?
An interesting question. I assume lawyers would start by looking at existing laws regarding humans who committed crimes while under the influence of alcohol, drugs, brain parasites, a cult's brainwashing etc., and how liability changes depending on if the drugs or alcohol were taken intentionally or administered by someone else.
The problem gets more knotty when the A.I. deliberately altered its code, but did not intend the negative outcome; if the issue is that the alteration introduced an unexpected flaw into the neural network that could not be foreseen due to the emergent nature of machine learning.
It's similar to a physician prescibing an anti-depressant or administering life-saving medication or brainsurgery for a brain tumour, which then has unexpected side-effects due to the patient's unique genetic makeup/physiology or an allergic reaction that makes the patient i.e. enter a manic phase.
Depends on whether the Doctor has free will. Voyager is written very much on the premise that he does, in which case his programming can’t determine his actual choices, just his available choices. The various things that you could do in any given situation are limited both by your capacities (what you know how to do) and the value judgments you’ve integrated into your subconscious (what occurs to you to do). Spock is right to say in Court Martial that it would be impossible for Kirk to act out of panic or malice in a crisis; he has shaped his character in such a way that the thought of doing what he’s accused of wouldn’t even occur to him. But those determine which options are available to you, not what you actually choose to do. If we accept The Doctor as a being with a volitional consciousness, then adding additional programming just widens his options. He can gain additional capacities *or* change the set of possible courses of action that appear to him, but he’s still responsible for the consequences if he makes bad choices.
Incidentally I think the second constraint-the one imposed by your subconscious, limiting the set of options that occur to you-is crucially important and incredibly interesting for a synthetic lifeform. It takes a long time and a lot of effort to reprogram your subconscious-that’s what building your character consists of-but a volitional computer could alter it much more quickly and deliberately, so their character would be even more directly a product of their choices than it is for man. And you’d absolutely have to do it in order not to be caught in computationally expensive analysis paralysis. But the range of the set “These are the things I could do which would not be irrelevant to the situation, obviously stupid, or against my ethical code” could vary wildly, and restricting that set would have enormous implications on the character of the computer.
I think it might have been cool to include somebody from another era of Trek to act as an inspiration for the Doctor, like Spock or Picard. Fun opportunity for a cameo and continuity nod, and given the episode’s theme you could do the Enemy Within thing, showing how that person’s apparently negative qualities help make them who they are.
Really had to do that jab on Kill the Moon twice, didn't you?
Yes, yes he did.
@@hariman7727 beat me to it. Man that episode is awful.
It would be one thing if that episode of DW was in the 60's but in the 2010's its a joke
This is the truth about how Armus was created
I feel like the Doctor attempting to murder a dude, torturing, threatening, and cajoling another dude, chemically paralyzing and threatening torture of a crewmate, and kidnapping, assaulting, and attempting to murder-suicide ANOTHER crewmate would probably get him either permanently turned off or at least reset to baseline personality.
I wonder if B'Elanna could reprogram the doctor to feel pain, and them lock him into a being-tortured subroutine for a few days?
You forget who his captain is.
When I first saw this episode when it first came out, I only saw bits and pieces of it because I was very tired. Though I was confused as to why the Doctor was in a cranky mood and had B'Elanna restrained. Also I misheard Tuvok talking about the attack on Zahir and thought he was talking about the (now former) African country of Zaire which I found very puzzling given they were on the other side of the galaxy. Fortunately I watched the full episode the following day when I was more awake and all confusion was cleared up.
I miss Kes.
We all do.
Dang magazine poll saving Harry Kim's useless but beautful butt.
Brilliant acting by picardo
The mating rituals of Telaxian males on the next NatGeo special.
Kill The Moon is a bloody masterpiece compared to what came after, which then killed the entire series.
Ghandi really needed a nuclear weapons joke. :*)
Agree, missed opportunity
I was waiting for one, and then Chuck went on to relate how he forbade his wife's (potentially life saving) use of penicillin.
Then I was very glad Chuck had refrained.
Has messing with the doctors brain worked well even once, and yet they keep doing it.
I've mentioned before in these comments that "Kill the Moon" is the episode that ended my relationship with the new _Doctor Who,_ but even I think you pummeled it a little excessively here.
Maybe because it's less that I think the idea is out of bounds than that it was the execution of the idea that was so flawed. Though I grant that both can be true.
Didn’t Ghandhi sleep naked next to his niece to “test against temptation” or some shit?
0:33
It looks like Janeway has a flaming hand.
CZcams Bots: THAT'S RACIST!!!
tbh i really liked this episode.
Ouch, sounds like someone was really hurt by "Kill the Moon" - can't imagine why 😄
Picardo was great as always. The rest? Meh ...
LOL I made the same remark as Janeway at 1:10
Idk how someone can write macros to delete files like that unless you are careless and having no idea what your code is doing…test test test.
Pre-7of 9 Voyager. WHY? I am curled up in a fettle position and crying! Neelix thinking about sex is just fucking scary!
"Fettle."
This is also the episode I used to make note that Kes is only a 2 year old and you are trying to get in her pants.
Sexual norms in Trek are kinda out the window. Just as long as it appears to be an adult and roughly human shape all games are on.
Hey. She's like, almost 3 at this point.
@@toddfraser3353 This also falls under 800 year old vampire who looks like a 8 year old, loli excuse.
If she's old enough to leave home to join _Voyager's_ crew, I think she's old enough to choose sex.
Are the Ocampa supposed to go extinct because they die of old age before most humans hit puberty?
Hey, Dragon, you _do_ know the Ocampans age at an accelerated rate, right?
"Saying the moon is an egg is a f_ing stupid idea."
Easily one of the dumbest Dr. Who episodes I've seen, that's for sure. It didn't even have anything fun, witty, creative, or scary to keep me invested. Just a really dumb plot that on top of the usual tv skewering of science, shows that the Who writers yet again fail to understand nuclear weapons.
Edit: is the BBC's legal department what's keeping you from covering that episode?
Ah yes, the Moon is an egg for something monstrous, a classic story...not kidding, I've seen this in like a half a dozen places. From Super Friends to EVO: The 4.6 Billion Year Journey, and even some actually creepy content like Local 58 here on youtube.
Kes was so much more interesting than Harry Kim.
Kes was the second worst character after only Seska. Yes, Neelix is a better character than Kes.
HA-HA I actually liked the stupid moon egg Doctor Who episode
Thanks for reminding me why I detested Voyager back in the day - it's BORING. 2-dimensional characters in non-imaginative scenarios irritating captain voice squeaky-clean starfleet blah blah blah. If only Tuvok had farted in the lift onroute to the bridge every so often (side effect of Neelix putting too many Talaxian spices in his plomeek soup) = EXCITEMENT!