Bohemians were perfectly nerfed (AoE2)
Vložit
- čas přidán 13. 06. 2022
- Here's a quick look at the recent Bohemian's nerf and why I think it's an example of how to successfully pull of a subtle but very effective rebalance.
___________________________________________________________
Patreon: / spiritofthelaw
Background music from Epidemic Sound: www.epidemicsound.com
Game: Age of Empires II Definitive Edition - Hry
The Monestary thing reminds me of Goths in 2020:
April: 2020 Free Loom
November 2020: downgrading it to Instant Loom instead, still costing normal resources
A pinch of resource saved early game, can make a mountain of a advantage.
Not only were those free resources that added up to quite an advantage which is true regardless of who it is, but it was also given to what was hands down the best infantry rushing civilisation as well so the 6 Militia rushes quickly turned into an MAA swarm that brought the game to a close quickly.
I don't play online these days but as a Goths main I can certainly tell you it was OP before November.
That's a really impressive nerf, and worth covering in a video. Too many games try balance changes and totally, categorically miss the mark entirely, making the situation worse or throwing it down the line by over-nerfing.
*cough* AOE4 *cough*
KEKW aoe2 balance has been whack for years. they overnerf like crazy and make units unusable. steppe lancers, arambai, battle elephants, etc have been so overnerfed they practically dont show up in any games. aoe4 has way better unit viability and counter system.
Yeah the usual response to something like this is nerfing to put something previously too good into _below_ average, in more rare cases into bottom tier or unviability.
@@Suhaschintala I'd like to disagree, but it really doesn't matter.
The point is, this SPECIFIC nerf was spot on, and worth mentioning.
Better than Mayans and Saracans being completely gutted by losing all their archer bonuses and getting nothing to compensate.
I havent been playing aoe for 4 or 5 years now, but still watching SOTL's vids. Can't explain, but still, I''m here enjoying good stuff.
My most advanced AOE game was Age of conquerors and Im here...
It's what keeps me interested in watching Viper and T90 - staying in the loop with technicalities I wouldn't know without putting weekly hours into gameplay.
Same here. He's good B-)
I’ll be just like you in a couple of years
I've only ever played Age of Mythology, but I still love these videos
A 2D visualization putting closed map win rate and open map win rate of different civ onto two axes could be nice as well, I think
Something that has consistently impressed me with AoE2 over the decades is how seemingly tiny, insignificant differences can mean a world of difference, as those differences are magnified by how the game is set up, and affected by individual player skill. I don't think I'd ever notice the Houfnice change, but I'm not really a very skilled player. I imagine in the hands of people who know what they're doing, it's enough to be noticeable, but not so hugely that it's disappointing.
The monastery cost nerf makes a lot of sense since the cheaper cost really stacked if you wanted to build many monasteries. Now it’s not so easy to slap down 4+ monasteries and flood our monks.
Houfnice is a crazy unit. When you increase or decrease multiple aspects of a unit's capabilities, there is a multiplicative effect. The Houfnice is basically twice as good as a regular bombard cannon despite each individual buff being smaller.
This is basically AoE 3 cannon that got smuggled into AoE 2 :D
and tear in shreds any units that not managed to close distance quickly
I don't know if Spirit will read this, but it would be cool to have a short video explaining who has the best bombard cannons, since there are a couple of civs that have specific bonuses to the unit.
Example: Turks, Burgundians, Hindustanis, Spanish, Portuguese, Bohemians...
Italians have a bonus too - decreased cost, with 5 Italian bombards being same price as 4 from other civs, and Teutons have +4 armour... Ethiopians get blast radius too
Turks still have the best BBCs, but if you r looking for unit killers, then Portuguese.
Indians don't exist anymore, but I can't think of any bonus you might have meant. What did you have in mind when mentioning Indians?
@@light_david7 Hindustanis, I have corrected it already, thanks for pointing it out.
Mongols in all-tech... not really i just like speedy Mongol siege.
I think u forgot to point one crucial thing in your "arena bonuses part of the video". Spearmen line with bonus damage are incredibly good to protect monks and houfnice.
What’s that got to do with the nerf?
@@andyw5962 Because there was a section talking about why the Bohemians were so oppressive on Arena (and not on open maps)
good point
The most important thing is, that Houfnice still looks awesome!
Ohhhh yeahhh it looks really good i really am not a big fan of how the bombard cannons look but houfnices r just 😍😍
@@Achilles75 Exactly!
One of the few creators I click immediately no matter what.
A little age of empires statistical analysis is like morning meditation for me lol
It's awesome that the devs managed to nerf a specific playstyle without affecting another. That's usually really hard to do. Well done.
Please continue the "Aoe2 vs history" series as well
Up
As a Poles player I am sweating buckets.
You’re next. *queue Jaws soundtrack*
they won't over-nerf them cause Folwark is trash on open maps
Bohemians were OP, Poles aren't. There won't be any nerfs
@@matiasgimenez1397 I agree that winrates aren't everything
I used to main them hard before the nerf, it was super small but noticeable, castle into instant 2 monasteries and castle drop was insane lul
As a fan of modern RTS games, I looooved the Bohemians, cause they had 'tanks'! And the destructive power of the Houfnice was mind-blowing! And the Jan-Siska campaing was amazing too! But I also tend to steer away from gunpowder in general, since I like to also keep my medieval games... well, medieval! Arrows and swords ftw! But the Bohemians came as favourites for me in a second, and I can respect the nerfs. I usually play with friends, not online 1v1, but I could tell how absurdly strong the Bohemians were... In Black Forest I would just force a fight in a chokepoint with the wagon-tanks-thingies... And then wipe ALL the enemy army with Houfnice fire... And then push for the win easily. So competitively, a solid nerf, which I find okay. But I'm glad the nerf was just, and not civ-crushing
*Pole player smiles while blinking frequently with “HELP ME” written on their eyelids.*
Spirit of the Law is the only channel with videos that i instantly like before i've even watched
I never play online but find these analysis eps fascinating
That thumbnail is just pure perfection
Ok so Bohemians couldn't take Pole position
Fine...
NIce to see some game devs know how to balance their game
I guess the chinese Zhuge crossbow (Chu Ko nu) could do this, but i wonder how increasing the hussite wagons attack spead would affect the secondry projectiles, does the reload time only start once the final projectile has been fired, if so, does that give it a limit to it's rate of fire if it could be affected by thumb ring's attack speed bonus, iirc you found that the tower only starts the timer till it's next attack when the final arrow is shot, but does that also happen with the chu ko nu and the hussite wagon? Hell, i think it could be an interesting video idea to look at what tech and/or units have odd or unexpected interactions with the 256x mod/cheat. Hussite wagon may need to be edited in the editor to check if it's secondary projectiles will put a hard limit on it's rate of fire though.
Possible nerfs I can think of for the Poles would be to either increase the cost and training time of the Obuch, or have the magnitude of Szlachta Privileges bumped down to -50% or even 40% other than that nerfing other bonuses might make them too weak perhaps...
ok man, I gotta be real with you
this vid gets an instant thumbs-up for that thumbnail alone
peace
@Spirit Of The Law
My friends and myself are at battle. Which is the fastest creating unit? Can you make?
More stuff for the future,
Can you update the civ overviews which are severly outdates like the turks?
2:30 What were the stats for their win rates in april alone? Were they about the same as the average since november?
The Moral of the Story :
DONT GET INTO TOP 10 CIV
OR YOU WILL GET NERF
Always be at the low tier so that you'll get buff instead of nerf...
Unless your the franks
@@michelgasser4840 The Franks have been nerfed not long ago with Chivalry being moved to Imp.
@@geeshta yes, chivalry become an imperial tech and forage bush gathering down to 15%
It was less “top ten” and more “a whole tier above other civs”.
That’s probably the point where you know they need a fix, when you have (group of) civs not even a part of the same curve
Amazing video. To me, this says that the devs really know what they are doing! They not only saw bohemians overperforming but were also capable of understanding the reasons.
hey Spirit 2nd time asking for a vid on "who has the best champions" love ur work. also a slav civ overview update?!?!?!?
Spirit, How do you determine the error bars? I thought the win-rate was a fully certain number.
Just wondering about the name of your channel, is it a reference to Montesquieu?
What is so impressive about this is that they managed to nerf only a very small portion of their gameplay, specifically the one that was too strong, without touching the rest.
There was a video where one civilizations stats (if forgot if it was part of a list or if the video was about one civilization) was largely driven by one person. Which video was that?
Finally, been waiting for this one lol
In the standard arena Meta, you will drop 1-2 monestaries and 1-2 TCs as soon as hitting castle age. the extra 100 wood basically allows you to drop a TC earlier, its basically like the Britons cheaper TC Bonus in that situation. When hoitting castle age, you usually want rto have and spend as much wood as possible, so yes, this is quite big
When you do the Bohemian Civ Overview, I know you're gonna shout out to Squarespace again by claiming that Bohemians are arguably the best civ to use Box Formation. Hussite Wagons work better with that formation than any other unit, though that doesn't mean it's practical to do so.
Hey Spirit, how do you know it is not just 'regresssion to the mean'?
I’ve been watching for quite a while now, but where did the name Spirit of the Law come from?
There is an older Q&A video explaining it, good luck going through the archive.
hey, the first syllable in "houfnice" sounds kinda like 'hoe' (gardening implement)
anyway keep up the good work 💯💯
Fantastic work, in conveying how well the Bohemians were nerfed. I'm under a rock, so what makes the Poles so incredibly good? o:
Plus basicaly free monastery upgrades means that e.g. coversion resistance saves a lot of gold you can spend on better things
Love this!
Please talk about the Caravanserai, unique's hindustanis building
Poles: Are we next?
Stalin and Hitler: No no no, not at all... ...
Then the Winged Hussars departed!
*The Allies have left the chat*
I haven't been able to put the "Spirit of the LaHire" out of my head.
Well made, spirit.
Unable to read comments but now I am interested in this French kiss.
Have you ever played Rise of Nations? I've always been interested in your opinions on AoE2 Adjacent games.
But how do you stop their wagons? I really want video on that. Mangonel doesn’t seem like an option - too much micro needed. Something practical
I was watching de Wattan Arbalest comparison and I miss a little bit that serires were you compare the unique units with their basic counterparts
PD: uwu
interesting love the videos
Too but I really love the civ alot but at least I don't have to experience the nerf until a couple of more months to come
Your thumbnail almost made think this was a Hera video
I would be happier if the wagons were like towers. Small attack of their own, but when garrisoned, much more.
And when garrisoned by spears, resistant to cav
Black desert needs this lessons about "nerfs"
They should have given the bohemians a compensatory buff for open maps.
Follow up: Is the Houfnice upgrade worth it? :)
Roses are red
Dora's monke is boots
Help crusaders are attacking our trade routes!!
is that a ggplot2 default plot I see?! YAY!!
Hey Guys, what is the website he is using for stats?
What's the most average civ?
Make a video about Castle Age balance for all the civs.
I have a feeling the free gold from polish stone mining is going to be drastically cut, perhaps by half. I think it would make more sense if the bonus were reversed, getting 25% free stone from gold mining. You will obviously find lots of stone if you are mining for gold, but you might not find any gold if you are mining for stone.
I think that bonus is supposed to reference silver mining in medieval Poland.
Nice idea
Heck yeah I'd be down for the Poles' gold bonus from mining stone being cut down to a quarter of the trickle rate because that's simply unfair and broken in its current state. But I'd say reversing the bonus, while it makes sense in that context, would make it even more OP because that is a lot of free stone the map will be giving you and stone is a somewhat limited resource in AoE 2.
While we're there, can we also address their stupid broken Folwark and also the ridiculous-though-not-quite-OP Obuch pls?
I would say drop it to 33% first and then to 25 if it's needed.
I say they nerf their Hussar spam late game or remove Cavalier
2:18 and also halbs dealing %25 more bonus damage
The HOU in houfnice is read like HO not like HOO. Like in uncle Ho, but its uncle Ho-fnice.
I love the Poles, but I don't really play Arena, if it shows up cool if not, eh whatever.
We'll done to deva
Houfnice !
make more AOE 2 online and make a vid out of it i love those
I think the more important question is that can they still do a rhapsody?
I don't think it was so perfect. Bohemians are already pretty weak on ANYTHING but arena imo. This takes them from super niche but strong arena civ to meh arena civ and almost trash tier on anything else. Like many times before, they flew too close to the arena sky and now pay a heavy price everywhere for it.
I dont think Bohemians are trash on BF and they are also pretty decent on Arabia with chemistry crossbows or hand cannoneers in castle
Agree, they are on top because they are new and interesting eurocentric civs and most play it for that. Many others could use nerfs before Boh
3:27 isnt this the same graph?
Hey, I have an idea that although it is easy against the AI, in a multiplayer game it is not easy, can you manage to play with the Byzantines, and create a "Constantinople"?
To make it difficult, I think the requirements would be to have a coast, a double layer of stone walls, and yes, also a wonder, to be the cherry on the cake.
I don't even play AoE2DE anymore, but I love seeing how the nerf and buff changes in recent patches xD
Guess poles next!
No :(
Any ideas why franks are not nerfed?
Has anyone ever told you that your videos glitch out on a Roku? It's only your newer vids that do this, and only on Roku for me. Weird
❤️❤️
I mean they are really trash on water or open maps so I don't know if it was that bad that they were S tier on closed... but I understand that it was not fun to play against.
Looking at the graphs SotL showed they were in a top three that had broken away from the rest of the pack.
That’s definitely a “something’s gone wrong” level of strong, they just need something to buff them elsewhere now.
it's really bad unfun design if they are "balanced" by being useless on one type of map and brokenly op on another type. so i think it was a good nerf and maybe they could get some open map buff soon
guess you could say it was their rhapsody
Those game mechanics are really realistic... ✅✅✅
I miss the intro
can someone explain to me why poles are that good on closed maps?
Double eco bonus, you can use the folwarks with no risk on closed maps.
only Arena due to Folwark really, not raiding it is huge
Isn't just the stupid Folwark eco, is also the huge amount of gold they get per stone mines, also they can spam that 30g cavalier like nothing and their UU is also broken on Imperial.
@@jcbo8906 if you think Obuch is broken you should check out the new Urumi warriors
I'm scared they will nerf Poles now without giving them something back 😅 making therm even worse on open maps
Can't wait for Poles to get nerfed, hate those stupid Hussars and Obuchs.
Is SOTL a Canadian?
Not sure if I'm feeding a troll, but here you go: czcams.com/users/SpiritOfTheLawabout
@@martinxvidxb If he's a Canadian, his channel might be affected by the Canadian Bill C-11. Which means, it limits the viewers of his channel or something like that.
2:16
False!!!
The Bombard Tower didnt Move Faster
Maybe it is a Gulitch?
Lol
are you sure it doesn't move 15% faster? how would you know unless you have your villagers place them on wheels.....?
15% faster from 0 base speed is still 0 so technically it applies
I wonder why poles are the most popular civ on arena.
I dont think you can tell all that much from win rate with civ picking being common on arena
Why would that affect anything?
Next stop “poles” 😌
Im pretty sure howfnice destroyed trebs in 2 shots before nerf
Bring the into back!! That shit was fire why the fuck did you even stop using it?!?!
This video is about "bohemians nerfed"
houfnice still op
With all the new villager diversity with Dynasties of India coming out, would we be able to get a break down on who has the best sappers? You have armour, cost, speed, and even population space to talk about there.
I think the bigger question is how are Portuguese having such a high win rate?!!?! It has to be the Fetoria swap of gold and wood generation. 1.0 to 0.7.
Why portuguese are last in arena?
Bohemians are Czechmated
So when will the Poles get hit with the nerfhammer then?