Doctor Strange In The Multiverse Of Madness Open Spoiler Discussion
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- čas přidán 7. 09. 2024
- John talks about Doctor Strange In The Multiverse Of Madness in an open spoiler discussion.
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I'm surprised and impressed that they are having Doctor Strange face the reality that he has lost Christine Palmer and is not going to win her back. That moment between him and alternate Christine was a very touching moment that was very deep and relatable. He was both admitting his love for Christine and coming to terms with the fact that they will never be together. And while there were hints of alternate Christine showing interest, they both knew that it couldn't happen, no matter how much they may have wanted to. I didn't think they would go such a route but I'm happy that they are.
To sum up this Open Spoiler Discussion:
70% Super Chats about the Illuminati section of the film.
25% Super Chats about Wanda Maximoff/Scarlett Witch.
5% Super Chats about everything else regarding the film.
It’s weird how almost nobody is talking about America Chavez even though she was a massive part of the plot from the very beginning to the very end.
@@MiloMurphysLaw It is, isn’t it? If you didn’t see the movie and learned of its plot from this video alone, you’d end up thinking it was about Wanda hunting down members of the Illuminati.
The first time I watched it, I liked it, but had a lot to process and 'get over'. The second time I watched it, I absolutely LOVED it. I usually try to watch a new movie at least twice: The first time gets all of your expectations out of the way (whether they're met or not), then the second time you can just sit back and enjoy the movie for what it is, rather than what it isn't. I always seem to like things more a second time, but on this particular occasion, I absolutely LOOOOVED it
Some of the reasons some people criticize this movie are insaaaane. "Not enough Illuminati, they died too early". What? Do you know how strong The Scarlet Witch is with the Darkhold? That is exactly how she would kill them. No need to make a 30 minutes fake fight. Also, some people are saying "oh they made Wanda so bad for no reason, they dismissed Wandavision". Excuse me? I think you are the one who is dismissing what happened in Wandavision. She was already in so much pain and she started reading the Darkhold. Wanda didn't become evil just like that, a magical book corrupted her by using her pain against her. That perfectly makes sense. Also, some people say "I expected more multiverses". What? What kind of criticism is that? That sounds like a you problem. This is not a documentary about the multiverse. 99% percent of the criticism about this movie is "I wanted this, I expected this" and people think that that's a problem of the movie. It's like saying "I've watched the "Fight Club" and honestly, I expected more fights because it is in the title and that's just what I want". That is insane. A movie is not responsible for what you have in your head, it is responsible for what is on the screen. If it's up to those people they want the whole x-men, Galactus, f4, Tribunal, and 100 things more in a DS movie and they want it to make sense. People are ridiculous honesty. I partially blame hype youtubers for this.
@@avimgarcia7467 Mert is not out of line for what he said about the expectations from some people…that’s those peoples fault for wanting more of this and that! Actually those people need to calm down…the film is what it is and people need to just enjoy it for what it is.
"they died too early" ... except Peggy Carter for some reason. Wanda can freeze thanos in the air and strip off his armor but the scarlet witch cant freeze peggy carter and squish her? one of the many instances of forced plot and things that made no sense
@@marvelvsdc6611 you stepping on your own words if should enjoy this film for what it is why can't people have a disagreement If they see something they don't like
@@p.c.v.m9999 yeah but here’s the thing, people overhyped themselves for this movie (whether it be from friends or social media) and because of that they have to hate on it when the movie didn’t show what they expected.
@@marvelvsdc6611 a lot of people go into movie expecting something good when don't get it it okays its okay to feel disappointed I agree some criticism out there is stupid but if it valid and they think it is they have the right to say so cool just as long no body attacking anybody who cares
The whole plot of the movie revolves around the multiverse. When people say there wasn't enough "multiverse" what they actually mean is there wasn't enough cameos from popular characters from other universes. That's what they really wanted.
Well actually what I meant when i said that is not about more cameos. But I just thought they would spend a few more minutes exploring the various types of different universes. A bit more creativity like in EEAAO. Like the paint one, dinosaur or animated. Instead of a half second glimpse, I would have loved to spend a minute or 2
@@sehrentamilselvam309 and with more minutes exploring other universes, we would get more cameos, and that what everyone wanted to see, in the end.
And they probably mean we didn't get to spend much time in other worlds. It was pretty much just our world and.... two others? The rest was just glanced over in seconds
@@rubendacostaesilva8442 maybe but that’s not what i was hoping for. I just wanted to explore how different worlds functions. Looking at the world destroyed by incursion was cool to see. Or 838 with their memory lane tech or red is go thingy. Idk I wanted to get more creative and wacky but i guess that’s not the point of the story they were going for
it wasn’t about cameos, it was the fact that we spent time in like 3 universes including the main one (616). It was super meh
The last scene of Loki featuring He Who Remains takes place at the beginning of time. So when they kill him, it stops him from enforcing the sacred timeline with his version of the TVA, leaving the multiverse wide open.
Probably the beginning of time from the limited perspective of "he who remains". In reality archetypes like Infinity and "The living Tribunal" are behind it all.
I think in every reality/timeline other than our own has a multiversal collision. So when He Who Remains died, nobody was controlling the timeline thus causing different realities to crash and cause a multiverse of madness. Multiverse is just a number of universes whereas the opening/merging of them is a completely different thing.
Loki calls it the Citidel at the End of Time. Cause mind you from He who remains perspective he’s from the future, 31st century to be exactly and he out lasted the end of the multiverses all war. But like Revona says the end of time is still being written, so He who remains was able to isolate his timeline and create the TVA to jump into all these different multiverses correct what ever nexus eventthat was gonna cause another’s him to be born in all these multiverse. They can’t jump to the future they only jump back to the nexus event in real time. These event have to happen in the past, but not only our universes past. But all universes past. I.E there was never a frog thor or alligator Loki in our universes history.
I wonder if deep down Wanda knew that Vision would absolutely rebuke her actions and thus she only looked for her kids who wouldn't understand anyway.
True
Exactly 💯
Why did Lord Chthon make a statue of her? Never explained.
My thought on the multiverse stuff:
- Consequences still matter for our main characters. None of the multiverse characters in this have bled into the MCU universe so your concern John seems a bit unfounded. Loki and Gamorra are still the only 2.
- While the film was all about the multiverse, we technically only got 2 other multiverse worlds to properly explore in the movie. So I can see why fans are a bit disappointed there. I personally was hoping they'd do a Kill Bill style 5 minutes sequence that was all in cartoon!
That possibility was killed straight in the beginning, when they revealed the solution relied in Book of Ashanti, aka plot trigger.
If they didn't knew what to do, and the only thing in their mind was running from universe to universe, with Wanda showing up and killing everyone, until they reached the Illuminati universe, and there they would discovered about the existence of the Book.
But, what would that contribute to the story? Nothing. Someone would make a cameo, Wanda would show up, kill them brutally, Chavez and Strange would manage to jump to another universe, and then again, and then again.
I agree. The multiverse isn’t gonna be some looney circus of cameos and bringing ppl back to life. I believe the main impactful emotional deaths won’t be undone by “multiverse”. Kevin Fiege has been a good story teller so far I don’t think he would do that. I believe what Kevin Fiege intends when he says “a tool to use in our back pocket” is a way they can bring in the different characters they now have the rights to.. From Fox to continuing share for sharing characters wit Sony. With Gammora it’s narratively accurate to bring her back if you ultimate want Thor and Guardians together in a movie called Love and Thunder. Before “multiverse” I would have swore the 2 of them were goin to compete for love of Gammora and what looks like a crush type love triangle they were setting up in Infinity War. And Loki HAS died to everyone in our universes knowledge, he’s outside of time and he can step right into whatever moment in time he wants to. I don’t think we’ll see him until it’s something of relevant importance to connecting the story. I personally don’t believe we don’t see Hiddleson in our universe anymore. I believe they find a way to kill him off and Sylvie will be the connecting tissue. But again multiverse is fun, we need a logical explanation for X men and Fantastic Four And that’s the best they can do while still pulling from the source material that’s fine with me.
Well that's what John means... you wanted a circus where all they do is hop from universe to universe throughout film.
I thought a couple universes was enough, we got the big picture and the ramifications; anything more would just be fan service and pandering and fruitless "wow" moments, rather than serving the actual overall plot like they did with this
They wouldnt have been able to have lengthy interaction with any characters if they just kept hoping from universe to universe, unless they made the movie 3-4 hours, which would be at the point just for the sake of it. Again, we got the big picture anything more would just be too much and a dimishment in value as it dragged on
I disagree with Wanda been shown as definitively dead at the end.
Scarlet Witch buried under rocks? No body, no shown kill... in my book Wanda is as dead as Bucky was when he fell off the train in the first cap, loki in the first thor,
Honestly I think I would have classify Bucky as more dead. Wanda is arguably the most powerful person in the MCU, its the easiest thing in the world to say she didn't die. I think they left it open eneded beautifully. If in the next movie they say she is dead, great fits with the story. If they say she is alive, that works as well. She is both alive and dead for now, until the writers decide what to do lol.
@@AM-dk3wy
I really hope we'll get a credit scene in the future... showing white Vision searching in the rocks and finding Wanda incased in red aura.
As the one of the rules goes: "If you don't see the death in its fullest, they are not dead."
Not only would I say that she wasn't definitely dead. I think it's all but certain she's alive.
Wanda's story can't be continued. They didn't even show Chthon, who is absolutely essential to Wanda's story
I’m surprised to hear most people don’t like the music fight - it was one of my favorite parts! lol
The TVA doesn’t exist in any time frame. They exist on a different plane all together. They cover all of time. So at the end of Loki, when all that happened with Kang, it opened up the doors for the multiverse not just from then on out. But for all time, always. Idk I tried to explain that as best as I could.
The exist out of time. So if you change something that exists out of time, then the change just always was... right ?
@@AttonBrown exactly!
@@AttonBrown I’m honestly glad someone understood I thought I explained that poorly 😅
The two children that was created in WandaVision was already in our Wanda's dreams from the other universes, so she just recreated them in the MCU. In those other universes, the Ultron programme either succeeded (as we see in the movie) or Ultron won against the Avengers (as we saw in What If), so Vision is not there.
This seems like the perfect explanation to me.
I agree
good one
That is a great point. Ultron program being a success is blatantly why Vision doesn't exist in that universe
Still begs the question, who is the father?
Speaking of entitlement, post-credit scenes are starting to become that for fans. Not every movie needs to have life-changing ones. Were these my favorite post-credit scenes? No but that's totally okay. In one way it's actually refreshing to have a scene that doesn't feel the need to set up 2 or 3 more films.
Agreed. You can get up and bounce, as soon as the credits start to roll. Read about it online when you get home. 🤷🏾♂️
It wasn't that they didn't set up new crazy stuff (still one of my favorites is the Captain America PSA for Spider-Man: Homecoming), it's that the Clea one in particular was just, on its own, an awful production. I actually kinda liked the Pizza Poppa end credit scene for its trolling factor.
Yeah, that isn't the problem. The problem is that the second scene completely shoots down any tension or gravitas the first was trying to set up.
My disappointment in the Illuminati scene was that they were too easily dispatched. Charles Xavier is the most powerful psychic in the world, right? There should have been an epic mind battle. I didn’t like how he went out. Also Mr Fantastic did absolutely nothing. I wanted to see them actually fight. So it’s not the length of screen time or the fact they were killed that bothered me, it’s just I feel it would show Wanda’s power more if she were fighting full powered versions of these characters. I was fine with the Black Bolt bit, and I liked the Captain Carter fight, but the the rest were disappointing IMO.
I respect you felt that way seeing it. To me that was the point. That they were able to kill Thanos and even so were still easily dispatched of. To give us a the audience clarity on why Strange and America are desperately running trying to get away.
@@newacct4259 sure. I hear that. I do think they showed us that Wanda was powerful, but they didn’t SHOW us that the Illuminati was powerful. How is Captain Marvel killed by a falling statue? She is basically energy. I think they would better show how powerful Wanda is by not nerfing the other characters.
Especially when later in the movie, Wanda looses a punching match to America Chavez. Is the MCU saying America hits harder than Captain Marvel?
@@newacct4259 you can still show how powerful Wanda is while having them put up a fight
@@baertheblader9402 its like the fight in infinity war although they lose they try there best so it more heartbreaking when they actually lose
in the comics, wanda’s kids are still conjured by her magic. so vision isn’t really a factor in that sense.
This isn't the comics dude lol john is basically saying Wanda's story has always been about vision and her in the mcu
Vision showing up would of humbled Wanda look at the storyline Wanda vision had and vision would wreck her.
@@pimpstick9988 vision showing up doesn't have to just only humble her lol he could of showed up and helped wong atleast and when you say vision would wreck her I'm guessing you mean emotionally because she would rip him apart easily physically lol he wouldn't stand a chance in a fight
@@TheTrollSlayer i said he isn’t a factor in the sense of the kids being “born”. i def agree that he should’ve had a presence in the movie due to how they’ve portrayed his relationship to wanda up to this point
@@MUGENTheHuman ohhhh ok Then yeah I definitely agree lol I just read it quick my bad man, but yeah totally agree
I think the ending of Loki makes sense but it gets confusing if we use a linear perspective of time. Once Sylvia killed He Who remains, it changed all of time from inception to the end meaning the multiverse had always existed. What she did was outside of time itself, so it kinda means the multiverse both was always and never existing at the same time, but from the perspective of He Who remains outside of time it seemed there was only one timeline. So it’s just a matter of perspective
Yes the multiverse exists in a state of superposition. (Shrodinger's cat) you are correct
Good explanation. But i don't get why they had to make it so complex. Most people will always be confused by this.
The multiverse always existed. What He Who Remains did, was keep them separate to prevent incursions and war.
When Sylvie killed him, that's what allows our characters to travel between worlds or the characters in NWH to come to our world. She broke down the barriers
@@Goatcha_M They’re not separate. Multiverse and branching timelines are not the same thing, but they’re also not mutually exclusive. Branching timelines is the creation of new realities in the multiverse.
I agree. I think we need to think of the Loki series taking place outside of the realm of time and space, instead of happening during Endgame. The multiverse was always there, we just got to witness its rebirth.
Yes, it bothers me that at the end of "Wanda Vision", it was heavily hinted that Vision can come back and their "goodbye" is just temporary. If anything, Wanda/Scarlett witch should have tried to find a universe where Vision and the kids will all be there so they can be together. I think this will be more touching than Wanda wants to reunite with the whole "family". Also, for the folks who have not seen WandaVision, they know Vision is Wanda's boyfriend from the other MCU movies so they can have a better emotional tie-in. Not sure why they are removing Vision's name and character altogether...
Imo she knew vision would not approve of what she was doing
Vision doesn't exist in that universe because the Ultron program was clearly a success
@@victory7763 but what about all of the other universes where her kids exist?
@@MiloMurphysLaw Based on this movie and What If, it would seem that 616 universe is unique in that Vision was born. He doesn't seem to exist in any other universe, at least it's not confirmed so far. In 616 MCU he was the result of Ultron and Stark's machinations; and Thor's lightning and the mind stone... such a specific series of events is what led to his existence.
As for her kids, if it's anything like the comics, they were born as a result of her magic regardless
Is Vision actually based on Wanda's dreams of Chthon?
1:10:10 The viewer is right here. It felt more like Wanda's story with a Doctor Strange movie built around it (or "WandaVision Part II" with Doctor Strange as a big guest star). While Strange did have a bit more screen time, he was only reacting to Wanda's actions. Reminded me of Infinity War: yes, it was technically an Avengers movie, but at its core it was Thanos' story. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that. It was just a shame for Dr. Strange that he didn't really get much to do in his own movie, other than clarify his relationship with Christine. Wanda got more of a character arc than he did. You can pin this down to one simple fact: The one must-see thing for "Into the Multiverse of Madness" is "WandaVision", not so much Doctor Strange 1 (probably the reason Scott Derrickson dropped out, because Kevin Feige was more interested in Wanda's story than Strange's).
Which is why when Scott dropped out I knew this was going to be a disappointment/Wanda movie. Scott in an interview discussed how Dr Strange is his favourite/one of fav characters, he loves the comics and really wanted to delve deeper into Dr Strange's character arc & stories in Dr Strange 2 so why would he then not be part of sequel movie?
Wanda had no character arc. I don't care about her kids. Vision and Chthon, the two most important relationships with Wanda, needed to be focus instead of the kids who are not important to her arc.
Black Bolt's "I'm sorry", best single moment in the movie
Honestly with Wanda I think it was POSSIBLE to avoid all that if she had an actual supportive friend or friends..After Endgame they left this "kid" Cap's words to deal with all that grief and fallout all on her own..Even Peter had Ned and Mj to turn too..She had nobody.
People didn't get the end of the movie.
Scarlet Witch won.
She got what she wanted.
She planned everything since the beggining.
Listen, when Scarlet Witch get fisically into the iluminatti universe (838) her plan never was to bring her children to 616 universe.
She got in the 838, her kids got scared of her (Scarlet Witch) and than she switched bodies with 838 Wanda.
She controlled 838 Wanda already in the Scarlet Witch body, said "they will be much loved" and than she sent Wanda 838 to 616 controling her to destroy the Castle and all the Darkholds from the multiverse, so no other Wanda can get there in the 838 and take her kids away from her.
Scarlet Witch won!!!
She was totally controlled by the Darkhold killing everyone in her way. She would never give up of her life with her kids.
She now lives there in the 838 universe with her kids.
This explain the incursion Clea came to advise Strange about it. It's all Scarlet Witch's fault. Universe 838 and 616 are in incursion because of what Scarlet Witch did.
Even Reed Richard's explains what causes incursions.
That is a movie to watch twice.
which part of the movie were you and rob spoiled with? this is email that was sent to you and you kept referring too before the movie came out?
Let's be honest with ourselves, we all screamed with joy when the Illuminati appeared.
Seen it twice now. Still loved it. My favorite scene was the Illuminati confronting Wanda. Borderline disturbing fun!
Would have been nice if you had Rob there with you. I think you should always have at least one other person with you when you do these spoiler discussions. He was a great addition to the Moon Knight discussion video. It’s kinda boring when you’re just alone talking for over 3 hours straight.
It's not boring I think, but I do agree that it would be better if there was someone else
Absolutely agree. Rob makes everything better!
Then this 3.5 hour video would have been over 6 hours. There's a reason why Campea doesn't have other people on these spoiler discussions. He'll probably spend about 8 hours total to cover all the comments that came in.
I think its better to have a 2nd person in the discussion because it better to bounce ideas off of and have puch back against certain opinions. When you are alon its very easy to just go off on a point they in your own head makes total sense and is completely rational, but in reality you might be a little off.
@@wisemanofsorts6068 It's definitely better to have two people for a spoiler discussion, I agree, but that just isn't feasible with the number of comments Campea gets in. He must have done over 10 hours for the Endgame spoiler discussion and that was just one person at a time. Campea's spoiler discussions aren't really discussions, it's mostly just him reading people's comments and questions. For me personally I have enough/get bored within the first hour of these videos because I know the rest will just be repeated comments/thoughts/questions for several more hours. Some people might like to watch the entire thing though.
I wish the movie was longer, like 40 minutes longer to get more from this movie that otherwise felt kinda disjointed and filled with plot holes at just 2 hours.
Agreed
totally agreed. if any mcu movie which needs at least 2.45 minutes. its this one
40? No. 7-10 minutes would have been nice though.
For me it was just right.
@@JoelJoel321 the only small things I would have liked were a brief White Vision appearance (or at least more discussion on his absence) and then add a little more to the Illuminati fight and end fight.
I find the fact that Sam Raimi did not watch Wandavision when Wanda is such a huge part of this film to be absolutely unacceptable. If he had, this may have been a top 10 mcu film as there are a lot of good things in this movie
I personally loved the movie. Our dreams being memories from other versions of us was a great concept. Demon Cape Defender Strange was awesome! Wanda going full Omni-Man on the Illuminati was amazing. Can't wait to see it again!
Yeah I love that concept about dreams being memories from another universe was so awesome
That's true, that scene did remind me of the invincibles too!
You have to understand that the events at the end of Loki took place outside of time. This means there is no multiverse until Sylvie kills the Kang variant then all of the branched multiverse were allowed to take place in their respective variant timelines. So multiverse does exist and is known during ancient times because the Loki series happened which allowed for multiverses to branch at every timeline. That's how I understood it.
27:00 You're wrong here, John, or don't understand the criticism. Yes, technically it was "a lot" multiverse, since much of the movie takes place in other universes. But when a movie is called "In the MULTIVERSE of MADNESS" you expect them to visit many, many more other universes that are also much more visually different and exciting from a creative standpoint. But Dr. Strange visits just two (!) other universes in this film, the more important of which looks exactly like ours, except that the houses are covered with plants for no reason and people go through traffic lights on red instead of green. How uninspired and boring can it get? This multiverse trip wasn't mad at all. And if you like movies like "Into the Spider-Verse" and "Everything everywhere all at once", which cover this topic ten times better, you should be able to tell.
But would that really help the story of the movie though? The movie had a narrative that only when America was scared to a certain point she opened portals. And then in the end there that’s line Strange tells her to get her to finally control her powers which was “every time you opened a portal you sent us right where we needed to go”. Wouldn’t have held much wait if we would’ve stopped to smell the roses in every multiverse. And ppl tend to forget the rest of the title lol it’s Dr Strange IN THE/ multiverse of madness. These were the multiverses were the most madness was going on as far as Dr Strange was concerned.
@@newacct4259 Obviously, they should have written the film differently. But the universes visited could at least have been more interesting. And there would certainly have been narrative paths, so that Chavez would have opened portals more often to visit more worlds.
Elizabeth took the character and ran with it. Bravo bravo!!
I never had an issue with the dad. My guess was that Vision found a way to become more human in the same way Robin Williams character becomes Human in Bicentennial Man.
lol thats a big assumption
Awesome stream. Really liked MoM liked it better than the first.
I'm fine with Wanda not looking for Vision since White Vision exists. White Vision is basically her Vision, and he can be restored without having to go through the multiverse.
Yes, but does SHE know that?
Vision seems to only exist in 616...
White Vision is evil. He has Chaos Magic in him and that means he is a puppet of Chthon.
Chaos Magic is evil and White Vision has no emotions.
The lack of Vision didn’t occur to me until your commentary. I gave this movie a personal 10/10 but adding references to Vision or even adding variant(s) of Vision would’ve made this a 12/10 for me. I agreed that the use of the Illuminati to demonstrate Wanda’s OP status was spot on. Looking forward to the director’s cut / deleted scenes. Thanks for your work!
The lack of Chthon means Wanda has no story left to tell.
He is the only future direction they can go in with Wanda.
I think Krazinski will be our Reed going forward. You can't just tease that in a cameo and be done with it. Remember Krazinski auditioned for Capt America and was best out by Chris Evans. This would be awesome "redemption casting" and or directorial opportunity.
Bruce Campbell's cameo was perfect for Sam Raimi. That's exactly what he was like in every single Raimi Spider-Man movie. He didn't need to be more or be relevant to the overall story - though in retro spec his reaction to Dr Strange made perfect sense if Strange was dead in that world. While I agree about the mid credits being awful, the end credits sequence made my entire cinema laugh out loud. No every end credit needs to lead into the next movie/show. Your 7 minutes so important to you that it felt that bad to you? It felt so much like the Homecoming end credit which I also loved.
Yeah I agree. Nearly everyone who stayed until the end laughed at the final scene. I have a hard time believing John that no one in his theater laughed.
If the incursion he caused is the way they bring in mutants it could salvage the mid credits scene to at least a certain extent.
Nope, still a bad scene
But you said earlier that John Watts left the directing seat of Fantastic Four because they might've got John Krasinski and then they got John Krasinski so it's weird you're saying this now.
I loved America Chavez in this movie. I didn't think I would as much prior to seeing it but once I did, I thought she was awesome
Black Bolt’s death was more R rated than the whole 4 hr Snydercut JL 😂🤣
What I think people wanted from the Multiverse was an adventure story, it’s also what I was expecting. Where pace and direction of the plot made it such they would go to more Multiverses for a short time, while the threat of Wanda successively moves forward.
2:39:00 and the reason that the Illuminati was able to kill Thanos without having to give up the time stone was because that universe had a completely different past. They had the X-Men, Inhumans, and Fantastic Four. Peggy got the super soldier serum instead of Steve, Maria became Captain Marvel instead of Carol, and the creation of Ultron was successful. Obviously that universe doesn’t have to defeat Thanos the same way that the 616 Avengers defeated him.
I was surprised we did not see the Dr Strange from What If? Because I thought we were going to get that in this film based on the trailers and instead we got a whole another version
Thats not a marvel problem. Thats a you problem
I just got out of the movie I couldn’t see it last weekend and I see why some people that have like all the other marvel movies might not like this one and it starts off from a jump they jump right into everything but I really liked it I’m glad we didn’t waste 45 minutes of build up time. Every now and then it’s fun to have a movie like that in a shared universe. I am a bigger fan of DC then I am marvel but I have really loved all the marvel movies a lot and I had a lot of fun watching this one. I wouldn’t say it’s in my top 10 favorite marvel movies but it was a blast.
Doctor strange used the dark hold to defeat thanos didn’t he? I thought that was why they killed him. So the Illuminati didn’t “fuck up thanos” haha
I don't mind that Wanda went bad, but I was expecting Chthon to be involved. In the series she clearly *decided* to let Vision and her kids go because she realized she did not want to be that person! So going back for the same reasons as before negates her growth.
Maybe the corruption from the Darkhold should have been better developed - with whole prophecy thing. She is meant to either rule the world or destroy it. Why?
She could have been shown possessed or tempted by Chthon or by a Wanda from a different universe, something else. It should have been developed.
I just think her emotional evolution was more gradual and deeper in the series, and her sudden change cheapens that.
Chthon is central to Wanda's journey yet they barely mention him here. He's depicted in the temple above Wanda's statue and as a hooded figure, but they seem to have decided to make Wanda's entire story be about her kids, because that is the entire reason women exist, and ignore the far more important struggle with Chthon.
Would have made more sense if strange from alternate universe was the actual villain and was trying to set wanda up as the villain to get rid of 616 strange indirectly. illuminati should have been killed by him with charles surviving just long enough to have a mental meeting with Wanda where he helps her escape the dark hold's corruption and she would them come to dr strange's help and she would just take away dark hold powers from evil strange so 616 strange can beat him.
Would also have gone in line with the theme that strange needs to learn to not just do whatever he wants to and be more careful. Instead, strange continues to break rules and possesses a dead body and still wins. When Wanda called him a hypocrite for doing that i laughed out loud.
when the Illuminati died fast, reminded me of Deadpool 2 when the X-Force got killed off quick.
my head canon is that the multiverse always had existed but because of all the things the tva did and other variables, the mcu was separated or closed off from the multiverse but had opened because of sylvie and loki
I took it as Wanda not looking for vision because she knew that he wouldn’t support her doing what she was doing and didn’t wanna face that
Regarding the "inconsistencies" in the Loki show multiverse, time and space is relative. Multiverse was closed. Since Loki opened it, again, it spawned throughout time and space. So it may have seemed like it was always there.
I loved the music note fight.
I think there is no chance in hell Krasinski isn't Reed in MCU. It can't be such a coincidence that John Watta quits the F4 movie days before we see Krasinski as Richards. Also, John, you yourself predicted this when Watts' departure was announced.
I think I understand that it’s timelines with in each universe, then there is the multiverse, and then there are dimensions. I also heard takes that it’s all the same thing, just different names, or opinions that 2/3 are the same, etc.
I think for a lot of Marvel fans, including me, and the general audience, this is getting really confusing.
John is 100% wrong on Wanda. No way she is dead. When the temple was crumbling down, you can see a red aura indicating Wanda used her powers. Did she teleport or protect herself from the rubble? Idk how she did it but the scene insinuated that she definitely did not die!
More likely Chthon, to whom she is indispensable, and whom resides within Wundagore Mountain.
Wanda had no will to live.
I'm with you on the lack of Vision, it made no sense ot not address his absence. Right or wrong I chose to think of it as he only existed in our universe and that was why her kids didn't, like she can only ever have one or the other but as the Scarlet Witch could only obsess over what she didn't have becasue of the darkhold. Could be wrong but that's the only way it made sense to me
Might be my favorite spoiler discussion to date, flew by so fast. Thanks for what you do John, I really mean that.
I think when people say they wanted more multiverse, they simply mean they just wanted to see more variants of other already established characters, and maybe even a quick cameo, even if just in passing, of characters that have never appeared in the mcu. Not necessarily to serve any real purpose to plot, but just a little more fan service, considering the title of the movie and all the hype surrounding it. Although I kind of feel they could have done just a little more exploring of the multiverse, I remind myself that it is just a Dr. Strange movie. It's not meant to be the next End Game.
You rock dude. My favorite podcast. Such a relief and cathartic experience everytime I watch.
Loki murdered a lot of people as well, directly and indirectly. He's getting a redemption arc. I don't think Wanda is beyond becoming some kind of antihero. She'll never be "on the lunchbox" again, but she isn't beyond a redemption arc within the MCU.
If she even returns. Fighting Chthon is the only credible route.
I loved this film it’s in my top 10 mcu films. Really glad Raimi got to do his thing and hope to see more horror elements in future mcu films. It gave me a little more hope for a pg-13 blade. My one nitpick is how mr fantastic is supposed to be the smartest man but gives away black bolts power to Wanda 😂.
Black bolt died saying "Bamf You" to Mr. Fantastic. Wonder what would have happened had he been able to get his attack off...
I enjoyed this film more than First Dr Strange film but I prefer Dr Strange more in Thor Ragnorak, Avengers Infinity War and Spider-Man No Way Home more than the Dr Strange films.
My explanation for vision not being included in Wanda's plans was that in every universe that WandaVision happened in, there was a few where her spell was never broken and she got to continue living with her children. Wanda is an organic being and will always be subject to variables and Vision is artificial and therefore binary in his decision making. So every multiverse version of Vision came to the same conclusion that what Wanda was doing was wrong and he couldn't/wouldn't ever go along with it in any reality... so Vision was never an objective of Wanda because she knew that no matter what happened there's no universe where she could have both her children and Vision.
At least that's the explanation I thought up.
We don't even know if Vision exists in other universes. We've seen in this movie that the Ultron program was successful in this alternate direction hence Vision didn't exist, in What If we saw another universe where Ultron won, so again Vision didn't exist... people are basically complaining on the assumption that Vision exists at all in other universes and assuming that it wasn't her NEXT goal AFTER getting her children.
Ultimately this critique is born from assumptions; what IS confirmed is her kids existing in other realities.
@@victory7763 true. My explanation is for universes where he did exist because they are probably out there somewhere and that would explain why Wanda was not in search of that.
But yeah, it would appear that at least in 838 the events in Age Of Ultron happened differently so it's more likely than not that Vision was never born in 838.
Raimi didn't know who Vision is, that is why he is not in the movie.
Agreed that tommy and billy were not good compared to wandavision. But I put that on the writing than the kids. Like throwing toys at Wanda over and over again then hiding like that was cringy Hahah Also do they not have powers in that universe or did they only have powers in the fake west view
A lot of these questions just confirm that folks didn’t really pay attention during the Loki finale
People are going into this movie with wayyyyyyy too many high expectations!
This isn't Multiverse The Movie, this is at the end of the day a Doctor Strange movie. There will most likely be a lot more glimpses and bigger scenes going forward once Kang shows up.
Elizabeth Olsen was incredible in this! As much as I wanted to see Nightmare as the main antagonist, Scarlet Witch made way too much sense! Her character journey from Infinity War to Endgame to WandaVision to this movie., it's a full arc and that scene at the end where she scared Wanda's kids was really powerful and well done. I also quite enjoyed the homage to The Shining with Wanda limping down the tunnels after Strange and company looked and felt just like the hedge maze chase with Jack and Danny. Also, she ain't dead, I think she escaped the debris by the skin of her teeth.
I might be in the minority, but I really enjoyed Bruce Campbell in this! "Pizza Papa always gets paid." I think why I liked it quite a bit was it reminded me of the slapsticky Ash from Evil Dead 2 & Army Of Darkness.
Lastly, I liked the overly violent deaths of the Illuminati. Mister Fantastic becoming human Playdoh was bizarre yet inspired. Captain Carter getting sliced in half with her own shield felt like something out of James Gunn's The Suicide Squad, which was nice. Captain Marvel getting her head crushed by the statue was gnarly too. But nothing beats Scarlet Witch removing Black Bolt's mouth and have him scream internally blowing his own brains out. That death made me laugh out loud, because it was so creative and so over the top Sam Raimi! I'm a sick person I guess lol
But movie has multiverse in title you can't say this isn't about multiverse when literally multiverse is in the title
my understanding of the Vision situation is that Wanda only saw her kids in her dreams which must mean Vision is rarer in the multiverse and that's why she knew she can get the kids but not neccessarily him
Couldn't Wanda create her children again in this universe instead of trying to find them in another universe?
They were created from her love for Vision. With him gone, she no longer has the emotions to create them. Chaos Magic is fueled by emotion, so what you can create is limited by your emotions.
To be frank John, the Inhumans were never a X-Men replacement.
I agree with you on the lack of vision part but not the clea part. The conversions are about the Multiverse. So it does set up the next story. As for Wanda,she mentions that, at least as far as she can see, she's the only version of Wanda Maximoff that doesn't have real children. This means that every other version of Wanda didn't go through the events of WandaVision, ergo, they never came into contact with the Darkhold and its corrupting powers.The events of WandaVision on their own made it seem like Wanda seemingly created Billy and Tommy completely out of thin air, but thanks to Multiverse of Madness, we now know that she had a “reference” of sorts when she decided how her children should look like. Dreams now seem to be more important than ever in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Doctor Strange 2 confirmed that dreams show an alternate reality somewhere in the Multiverse, connecting variant versions of the same character and their experiences. This is how Doctor Strange first “feels” the death of Defender Strange, and ‘Dreamwalking’ is an ability of the Darkhold that would play an integral part in the film’s plot. Knowing this, we can conclude that Wanda, prior to what happened in Westview and WandaVision, had a dream that included her kids from Earth-838. She became fixated with the idea of becoming a mother - and more importantly, she wanted the kids she saw in her dreams. However, there’s one glaring omission that’s hardly explained in the movie: who fathered Wanda’s children in Earth-838? Our knowledge of Earth-616 would make us believe that the answer would be Vision - or some alternate version of him - but it’s still strange that Wanda’s husband isn’t brought into the picture at some point, not even by Scarlet Witch. Let’s not forget that WandaVision was essentially Wanda’s coping process after seeing Vision being killed by Thanos, so, at the very least, she’d be glad to see an alternate version of her beloved alive and well. There are some theories that all seem to conclude that Vision might not be with Wanda in Earth-838 - and even if he is, he would be a dramatically different version than the one we know and love. For instance, we can briefly see that the Illuminati of Earth-838 use Ultron bots, which means that, in that reality, the whole war with Ultron never happened, which in turn would mean that Vision was never created.
The musical fight was absolutely my favourite part of the movie. Sad to see a lot of ppl found it bad
I´ve been replaying the hummingbird part for a while now, lovely!
So Black Bolt's voice can smash through a skull and/or obliterate his version of Dr. Strange, but it can't blow through a thin piece of skin that replaced his mouth?
How do you know that all it was was skin? Just because it was flesh-colored doesn't mean it didn't have its own mystical properties.
Exactly what I thought, but I honestly really liked the way they handled BB and the rest of the Illuminati's deaths, essentially using their own powers against them
So he blow the front of his mouth off okkk. I guess that better
The kids look the same because they technically don’t have a dad. In the comics the kids were a manifestation of Wandas powers and two shards from the soul of the demon Mephisto. Later he uses these kids to manipulate Wanda. That’s probably why all of them look the same - they’re all part of the same demon daddy. Also, I think another video covered that there was likely only ever one Vision that existed in Earth 616. Even the What If..? Visions aren’t the same at all - one killed himself in the zombie episode and the other became Ultron. So the Vision as he existed with Wanda only happened in one universe.
NGL John calling out fan entitlement gives me joy
John, your wrong about something from Wandavision that you aren't remembering correctly. The kids in Wandavision were also real, its that the magic that created the kids was tied to the Hex that surrounded the town Wandavision. In Earth 838, Thanos was stopped before he could kill Vision (the infinity Guantlet worn by Thanos missing the Time Stone, and the Mind Stone). So Vision survived in that universe.
So if Vision isn't killed by Thanos, Wanda doesn't wake up 5 years later and takes over Westview in that reality, and the house they planned to build is real this time instead of something created with Wanda's magic. So Vision is also the "Father" of Billy and Tommy in Universe 838, but because Wanda didn't create the Hex in Wanda basically created Billy and Tommy using essentially Magic in that timeline too. Basically the other realities wherw Wanda has her kids are the ones where her and Vision didn't die.
Technically, Chthon is the "real" father of Billy and Tommy, as he provided the means for their creation. But without Vision there would not be the emotional spark, so he is the father in the spiritual sense.
Vision missing from the story was a mistake.
Even I would say a Hawkeye appearance is missing to plead with her. They have a strong bond and at the end of Endgame both grieved together over their losses.
I feel the fans who say they wasted the illuminati are not expressing their feelings the right way. I too feel a certain way. I feel the intros and deaths were rushed. But that also goes into the pacing of the movie. Even emotional beats were rushed. Back to the illuminati, I feel instead of them all dying in the same place I would have like to see it extend to different universes giving them time to escape etc etc. For instance, it could have been a cool house of horrors if she was in sinster strange's house killing the remaining heroes. And a statue killing Marvel c'mon we can do better, that was lazy writing.
Last thing, the kids should have fought Scarlett witch with powers to protect their mom. They should have had powers.
I did overall enjoy this roller coaster ride. See you all on the next one.
Idk man...Hawkeye went to violence after his family died. Granted its criminals.
simple explanation for the kids: she created her children in wandavision based on what she saw in dreams. the movie established that dreams are glimpses into other universes. so it doesnt matter who the father is, the kids are real
Chthon is the father of the kids, not Vision.
Loved the movie just wish the had a few more cameos since they go to different universes
Man my session was wack. The whole room was dead silent.
When people are disappointed by "not much multiverse", what they really mean is "NO BLADE! NO STARK, NO SPIDERMAN, NO ETC"
Maybe she had immaculate conception in other realities or reality warping abilities allow her to just create them completely as she wants regardless of which sperm fertilizes the egg. but they should have explained it minimally instead of just a plot hole
My 5 yr old Daughter loves Wanda. She wanted to go watch this movie but I decided to leave her home. I'm glad I did, she was scared of Knuckles or as she calls him "Chuckles" so I know she would have been freaked out by seeing this Wanda wrecking fools. I didn't want to ruin her favorite character.
Totally agree with you on the post credits and the Vision issue.
The ironic thing is that this open spoiler discussion was longer than the movie itself.
John, the Illumanti used the Book of Vishanti to defeat Thanos in their universe.
man, i love these marvel movies as much as anyone and can appreciate speculation and everything, but MCU fans are starting to become very, very toxic and annoying. it’s tainting the fun of the discourse that’s happening around these films.
dude… u guys predicted and WANTED so many cameos lol… and ur telling me u weren’t let down? come on dude. just be honest.
Wanda is my favorite Avenger. She's also my favorite villain. I loved everything they did with her because they show what can happen when someone goes through trauma. In the end, she redeemed herself.
They should have shown Chthon.
Wanda was so awesome in this made me love her character even more
But where was Chthon? He is the author of her story. Only way she can be alive is by Chthon saving her, and he was ignored.
@@Relugus wanda teleported at the end of the movie. she didnt die.
You way overthink this film. Just sit back and enjoy.
Calling out problems in a movie is not overthinking, especially when they can negatively affect the experience.
Loved it. Didn’t have too many issues with it.
Some people don’t understand what cameo is
John keeps saying the Illuminati was so badass that they took out thanos by themselves. But didn’t they still have to find the book of Ashanti to do it? They still needed an object to give them the power advantage.. just like tony had to use the stones. So if I understood that correctly, it’s the same thing
YES! It came across like Dr Strange WITH the Book of Vishanti is what really stopped Thanos or at least did 90% of the heavy lifting.
The mid credits scene was definitely a hint to secret wars. I'm surprised john didn't think that
about what you said about Silvie killing Kang making the multiverse, she killed him in a place outside of time, so theoretically her killing Kang could have made the multiverse at the beginning of time
Man I could never imagine the mighty Black Bolt being dispatched so easily like that , even by the Scarlet Witch.
I love it, it's my favorite next to No Way Home. The visual effects were cool and unique, the action was great. It was great seeing Patrick Stewart again and very surprise to see John krasinski as Mr Fantastic.
Awhile Wanda was a good villain and was scary and terrifying, but some of her motivations were a little questionable. It did felt weird and off that she was over Vision, and all of this to be with her fake kids that were never real. Love the addition of The Illuminati, but felt they were mishandle and undermined during their fight against Scarlet Witch. And here's Strange explaining the situation involving Scarlet Witch and her ties to the Darkhold to them, they chose to ignore it. Instead, they were fixated on the idea that the sorcerer was the multiverse's biggest threat which I understand but still.
And that was even without tackling Doctor Strange's Spider-Man: No Way Home spell. Awhile I love Mr Fantastic but the way he just blabbed about Black Bolt's capabilities giving Wanda an idea about how to defeat him felt very questionable. It was great Mordo again, but the way he was being blinded by jealousy and that he never really considered what Doctor Strange's crisis was and the way he let the Illuminati get kill by Wanda was also questionable. Also thought it could have been a good 15 or 20 minutes longer, awhile I like the ending but the way they quickly warps up the story and everyone's arc wraps up some of felt a little too quickly and rushed. Overall I still enjoy it and saw it three times
@3:26:15
Not a 'big mess' at all.
Think of cutting a rope...
Multiverse ALWAYS existed... Before the events at the end of Loki, all the multiverses were like tiny strands woven into a nice, solid piece of rope... afterward, all those individual strands started to fray and splay out in all different directions... It always existed, but was not Out Of Control until Sylvie killed Kang... Sylvie cut the rope. Doctor Strange 1 stuff can be true, Loki stuff still impactful... DS2 'dreaming' thing can always have been true... just not that complicated, imo.