Where I live in Melbourne, there has recently been confirmation by geologists that a local Aboriginal story about a giant tsunami creating Port Phillip Bay accurately describes the creation of the bay at the end of the last ice age.
Ok. the best hour and forty minutes I've spent in a long time . If you don't bring back Anthony Murphy back soon I'll have to unsubscribe you. OK, not really. I'm not like that. Please. Please. Please keep this kind of quality going. Anthony, keep on keeping on. your insights are quite refreshing.At 75 years old ,I find it innately profound how little we know with the abundance information we have. yes, it Is the bias we been indrocturnated with that keeps us in our place. My biggest fear is the I'll not have enough time to find my way through all of this as I have awakened so late in the game. However, I have awakened.:D.
I love your knowledge Prehistory Guys but not more than I love your beings, characters, sense of humors and humbleness. Thank you for being you. Such joy just listening to you both!
Listening to the news about the burial in Finland, I'm having flashbacks to reading Island of the Blue Dolphins by Scott Dell. It's set in the islands of southern California but the main character makes a skirt of Cormorant Feathers. It's a fiction book but it's based on a true story and the skirt is documented. I love seeing such commonalities in such disparate places as SoCal and Finland.
We have the same rock "kite" traps off the shore of Lake Huron near Alpena Michigan dating from 9,000 years ago, they were used for hunting Caribou. They are at least that old because that's the last time the area was above water. They found obsidian from Oregon in one of the hunting blinds.
Hi Smith Dog, yes, we did a news piece in one of the Prehistory Shows about the hunting traps beneath Lake Huron. You certainly have some amazing archaeology hidden in those waters! R
If you did not catch the live show you missed the prehistory preshow. The 2 holes in the owls would make it hang from a wall or belt, shirt, etc. Do not know the size but they would make a nice ornament. The best part is when Anthony mentions Graham and Michael's expression is priceless. Nice red pickup Rupert very "american" of you, love it. I know there are pickups elsewhere but North America is bashed for having pickups. In the north they use stone piles and you only need a person every 5-10 stone stacks and the caribou will turn and go into the paddock. Thank you gents again, stay safe and healthy.
PS. Patreon supporters get to see the uncut Michael and Rupert. So to anyone who is not a supporter, if you love what they do, if they bring a bit of joy into your life and you can spare a little cash then come along and join the behind the scenes crew.
A lot of interest, even proudness on celtic history could be also found in Czech Republic (and Slovakia) coincidentaly, one of the oldest celtic sites could be found around Bratislava, southern Moravia, southern Bohemia (the province itself is still called after Boia tribes) and Prague. Especially oppidum "Závist" is one of the best celtic sites ever. Actually it seems, that Celts came to western Europe from central Europe... :-)
Anthony is a treasure himself with his intellectual knowledge and deep passion for his research, and love for informing. Bringing life to the myth he has a gift of captivating his audience.
Fascinating, thank you. I am wondering about any possible traces of Pictish mythology. Irish myths came to Scotland. Were there later Irish and Scottish versions of the same story, the Scottish one showing Pictish influence? Probably impossible to know.
@ Sandy Mccrone Me too, some time 2019. And I couldn't stop watching. It is brilliant! Then I wanted to buy the book for my brother. It cost a fortune, so I didn't order it. But I managed to get Mr. Hoskin's book Metamorphosis second hand and well kept from a library in the US. So that's how I came here - with the help of Time Team and the algorithm.
Regards Gobekli, I think it was actually a necropolis The dead had a ceremony in the circular enclosures, before being transferred to the square rooms behind, for bodily decay. And then a few years later the bones were gathered ip and taken home, as in traditional Judaic custom. This is why the square rooms behind all contain a small T-pillar. They were sacred rooms, not functional rooms. Funnily enough, the 1st century Edessan monarchy (which was based at Edessa, right next to Gobekli), had a similar necropolis on top of hills at Sogmatar, just south of Karahan Tepe. And these circular ‘tombs’ were indeed a part of a necropolis (although some 9,000 years later). And if you go east of Harran, the commoner’s necropolis was equally extensive (think Rome or Paris catacombs…) Likewise, Chaco Canyon appears to be the same. Again they have circular ritual centers, with square rooms behind for the entombment of the dead. Again, Chaco appears to be a necropolis. Yet this is again some 9,000 years and 5,000 miles displaced from Gobekli, despite the similarities. Remember that ancient peoples placed much of their wealth (time) into temples and burials (tombs). Thus the largest structures from the past are likely to be necropolises. Gobekli Tepe, and all the other Tepes, are likely to be necropolises. Ralph
I'm interested in the idea that our ancestors were averse to the negative social impacts of accumulation of wealth. Thereby disposing of previous metals into graves and lakes. Dumps, not hoards ?
A good deal of Irish mythology reads like somebody's freakiest acid trip. Fascinating, confusing, and often beautiful. The first one I read was The Destruction of Da Derga's Hostel. Trippy, man. And then quite a few others. The Irish tales just FEEL incredibly old, and certainly not much like 12th century stories in other languages of the region.
Yes, and that feeling of being truly "old" is bolstered by the presence, in some of the stories, of information that could NOT have been known in the era in which they were written down.
@@mythicalireland I'm afraid that I have never encountered, in a lifetime of extensive reading of ancient literature and mythology across the planet, any case of such tales containing "information that could not have been known in the era in which they were written down." Mystics and religious people of every sort constantly claim this to be the case, but the evidence supporting such claims is zero.
This is just brilliant! We must apply common sense...common behavior, to our assessment of these sites. As a southerner from a family with a strong oral tradition, I am inclined to believe that there is usually a kernel of truth in our mythology.
Exactly! A kernel of truth. Not necessarily a comprehensive repository of historical and factual information, but a fragmentary archive of Neolithic memories.
@@mythicalireland there is a story about a man who lived in Tbilisi in the 19th century who was the inheritor and teller of oral history. One of the stories he told was the Poem of Gilgamesh. In about 1920 his son picked up a newspaper that reported the discovery of the stellae in Mesopotamia with that poem carved into it in cuneiform writing. It was almost verbatim the story he had heard his father tell many times. It is not that the details of the story are true, but that some event occurred that was so profound a myth was created and preserved intact in the oral tradition for thousands of years. The Biblical story of Noah and the flood could well have been first heard by the Jewish community in Mesopotamia where part of the Old Testament was written. It seems there were very strict rules among those given the task of preserving oral traditions to not deviate from the earliest versions and that deviations only occurred when these stories were coopted by other cultures and by word of mouth in the general public. In the case of the flood stories we now know that the melting of the ice sheets caused vast flooding and the disappearance of whole land masses...the kernel of truth.
I feel more than a kernel. The story had to have originated from somewhere. I always joked witha friend that if Alton Towers was dug up 1500 years from now, the archaeologists would think it was some kind of temple to the God, Nemesis.
I would suggest that the inscription on the fine toothed comb may be an advertisement of the maker’s skills. I also thoroughly agree with the idea that humans lived in the past as they live now; we do mundane things to make our way through the day and month and year. Games, stargazing, scratching itches of many sorts are more relatable than everyone centering on a priesthood and religious identity. The funniest interpretation I have come across of cave art, was a hushed explanation of female figures with exaggerated sexual characteristics in remote parts of caves, supposedly for worship. I had a younger brother, and reared a son, and thus have a more earthy viewpoint of these alcoves.
Loved this comment. I did chuckle at the theory of some of the cave art. I think that's just brilliant honestly and having once been a teenage lad... it's more than feasible.😂
@@scottlaugher-flintknapping - thank you! And as self-release is virtually universal, I’ve never really understood all the hushed skittish references to such actions. Ah, humans.
‘Down time’. Thank you! The gruesome and/or romantic obsession with those ‘arenas’ being sites of religious ritual has always bothered me. I wouldn’t argue against there having been sites used for or dedicated to spiritual matters, but I have often felt there were quite likely to be many other purposes, including entertainment or the study or tracking of seasons. Very grateful for such a common-sense perspective.
in the 'Anabasis of Xenophon' there's a passage where Xenophon goes wandering thru an abandoned city, its a well known archeology site now, but when Xenophon was there it had only been abandoned for about 200 years.
in 'standing with stones' - 'future archeologists' were mentioned a few times - here's a video of 'future archeologists'., the science fiction channel 'Dust' the video 'Alientologists'. - its all archeology, but the exciting bit starts at about 5 min. in - If you ever NEED a smile on your face watch this!
Interesting theory on the desert "kites" - even today, a line of canvas held up on stakes can be used to funnel sheep or cattle into a yard for drafting. If you don't have working dogs to help, it's almost the only way to get the sheep yarded effectively.
Really stimulating and facinating discussion on world megaliths from you guys. The contribution of your Irish guest on inter-relationship between fields of knowledge and their potential to enrich and inform each other is very well made. I particularly loved his point about genetic research and stories of incest, perhaps among the Gods. There has also been connections of human genetic material found in Newgrange and that found in Carrowmore, I think . Altogether Anthony Murphy makes an excellent argument for more collabouration between archaeology and mythology. Thank yoy to the three of you for a very interesting programme & happy 2024 to you ! ( Seen your piece one year late)
I believe we need all forms of science/ology ( archaeology, geology and so on, to mythology) and history to form a clear picture of the past... Without these collective skills it's like putting a jigsaw together without a picture... The two holes would have been for the string if there meant to be pendants, one hole would have caused the things to turn sideways and got all tangled.
I would ask that you examine the story of the arrival of Tuatha de Dannan and the First Battle of Moy Tura. The Tuatha and the Firbolgs meet and discuss how they will battle. They compare weapons and upon realizing that the Tuatha have superior spears they exchange a proportion of the weapons to equal the battle. The spears are described in detail. The Tuatha were carrying atlatls. The Firbolg were carrying stout stabbing spears with burnt tips. This would be the type of spear that the Neanderthals carried. Now at this point these would not be full Neanderthal but they could be higher percentage than the Tuatha and being isolated when Doggerland flooded maintaining a higher percentage and didn't get updates on their weapons. When the Firbolgs lost they moved to one of the traditional divisions of Ireland. It could be proven one way or another with DNA test between the old and the new.
Fascinating story. I recently learned I have an ancestor named Hennessy which if you go back to its origins has something to do with the chief of the Firbolgs. I think there is a wealth of information encoded in our myths and legends that can point us towards the direction of our origins and ancient cultures.
Watching this the day after the solstice actually, that’s how behind I am on my Watch Later list! Great show as always, and a really enjoyable interview with Anthony Murphy. Thanks, Guys!
Something to consider pertaining to the owl theory...When people migrate, abandon, or die at a site, their religious items would either go with them or be destroyed by the invaders. Children's toys, on the other hand, would be left strewn about like the Lego's on you kid's bedroom floor. This could be said of other megalithic finds around the world.
👍👍👍👍👍- enjoyed these observations and information. For me looking at those 'stone walls' in Turkey, the first thing that comes to my simple thoughts on it, is they look like stones placed to redirect rain water for the purpose of collecting enough water for crops/agriculture in a drying climate. It is an old way of collecting water, or irrigation if you like, for crops in agricultural areas where there isn't enough (or no longer is enough) water for agriculture. This area in Turkey wasn't always so dry. If people were hunter/gatherers and agriculturalists at the time of the stone walls that seem to be culminating in a focal point where the fossils of water animals is seems to lean towards water collection and the breaks in the walls allows for a wide coverage of collected/irrigated water. Just a thought. For there to be be herds of animals you need vegetation which is long gone and to have agriculture you need water which also is long gone. The pattern of desertification is usually the absence of trees. Hunter gatherers would only be cutting down trees (if they did at all) for shelter and fire. Agricultural needs for cutting down trees would be for access to more land for planting crops to feed a growing population which would grow faster than the population growth of hunter/gatherers. Which group would likely deplete the area of trees faster and cause a lack of water and water retension? Who would need the stone walls more and have a greater drive to put in that amount of work needed to build them? Hunter gatherers usually are nomadic and travel with the herds. Agricultural tribes usually stay in one place?
The answer is ‘yes’. The Greek mythology of the Cyclops is obviously the skull of a dwarf elephant. The Greek mythology of the Thalos, is obviously a story of the eruption of Thera-Santorini. The Greek and Arthurian mythology of the floating islands, is obviously the floating islands of pumice from Santorini. The Greek mythology of Atlantis is obviously about Santorini. The Greek mythology of the biblical Exodus is obviously the historical Exodus of the Hyksos pharaohs, combined with the eruption of Santorini (the Plagues, including the claimed ashfall and tsunami parting of waters). etc: etc: etc: Ralph
@Ralph Ellis - Exactly. I've read some of your books. Quite insightful. I have been waiting for these guys to delve into your research and observations to present their thoughts. I'm sure Anthony Murphy would have some very interesting comments as well. All three of them should actually have you come and speak in one of their vids and vice versus.
The same type of stone “walls” for guiding the movement of wild herd animals have been positively identified under Lake Huron between Michigan and Ontario Canada. They were used for Caribou hunting and are many thousands of years old. Archeologists admit they’re real but prefer not to talk about it.😂
Surely, the kites and other similar structures worldwide were primarily used seasonaly to hunt migratory species. Even if they did preserve the meet, it seems probable that the people moved on to other seasonal sources of food in other areas
Its an interesting business, fleshing out a specific scene in pre-history based on archeological evidence on site PLUS what we know from other sites, No one ever considers the use of timber scaffolds and truss frames when speculating how the pyramids were built, but we know they used scaffolding. No one considers animal labor, because no animals are shown in any surviving images of old kingdom monument building, BUT we know they had animals. Weird. Echoes of obsolete technology in Irish myths cannot be insignificant, because technology is never insignificant. Technology is always a big deal, because it is associated with social specialisation and status, and collective identity. Your clan may be famous for making certain widgets, you may not be personally any good at making widgets, but among strangers you are part of the clan that makes widgets.
When Mr. Murphy said he was riding a bike while playing a euphonium he unconsciously worked his lips; it wasn't an exaggeration but the drone footage can't compete with the image in my head. Were you trying to scare fairies? Did it work? Rewatching the video I know what time you were playing. "The Drogheda Marshes" from "1001 Irish tunes" That has to be one of the more magical Irish images I can come up with.
I am always astonished at how stupid people think our ancestors were. They are displayed as being backwards, not getting out of their corners of the world, being naive. Actually, we should imagine them more like us today being stranded on an island without electricity, technology and internet - in short: without our conveniences and comforts. Would we find out how to do things? Sure, if we wanted to survive! Same goes for our ancestors. And I always cringe inside whe archaeologists start speaking of "ritual sites". I doubt that people were more religious than we are today, because that what we consider a dangerous environment that they lived in, for them was the normal. They wanted to have fun just as we do, and they were inventive just as we are. And the turkish sites as Göbekli Tepe are the first ones who gave the first clues that farming possibly came after the "invention" of large settlements. Thanks for this very interesting and enlightening episode, not only on finds, but also on Irish Myths!
Depends what you mean by 'religion' and 'ritual'... People place their focus and ritual action on different things in different cultures and time periods. Rituals are used in both religious and secular settings - if you think of ritual as a repeated action, custom or occasion then you might understand why that term is used? If you have lived in a community that lives close to nature then you will contrast how it effects one's outlook on life - it's different from the outlook of a person who is reliant on urban comforts and ignorant of how life can be enjoyed without modern inventions. No doubt we will continue to revise our appreciation of our ancestors' lives as more archaeological discoveries are made, and of course there will be many opinions as to what the discoveries are actually revealing! 😉
Unicorns. Bones found in Kazakhstan from a period not coterminous with humans. Very similar to the earliest portrayals in engravings of unicorns as a limber, hairy rhinoceros rather than Arab horse with barley sugar stick on head.
I wonder if anyone has done a study about the dangerous toys that were sold in the 1950’s that parents bought lawn darts chemistry sets I am having a seniors moment ah BB Guns etc .I was given a black board as a tween all I drew were ballgowns and horses standing in fields of grass because I wasn’t sure what the feet should look like but I knew the basic shape …I am writing this silly comment in response to your question about parents gifting their children spiked toys😮😅😊 I am the person who hit the 👍🙋🏼♀️as you were saying 24likes
Remember the bows and arrow sets that we played with? Nearly all kids I knew had a small pen knife tucked in their shorts pockets, these were popular gifts for those aged 6-11, along side catapults for ratting expeditions. You'll no doubt have seen documentaries of toddlers learning to handle machetes in some rural African communities - no one snatches the machetes away from the children. The PGs don't know it all... 😉😉 Having said that I would opt for the Owl items being ornaments/decorations rather than toys.
@@edelgyn2699 I don’t remember playing with bows and arrows I remember that I and my sisters played with Tonka toys and collected matchbox cars we were an interesting set of girls who didn’t play with knives and had political bumper stickers on our baby doll carriages ..all the way with Chet MacRae that was on my youngest sisters after I was older and no longer playing with dolls well I did knit clothes for their Barbie dolls needles can be dangerous I accidentally put one into the sole of my 🦶 👋🙋🏼♀️👋👍👍👍🍀🖖🖖🖖🤷🏼♀️
@@lindagates9150if I worried about the dangerous things in my house knitting needles would be the least of it! There are kitchen knives between 6 and 14 inches that I try and keep very sharp so it doesn’t hurt so much when I cut myself. There are cast iron frying pans of 6 sizes and bug stew pots. Stainless steel copper center pots that my mother was persuaded to get that have “ears” rather than a long handle to be “Safer”. Scissors capable of cutting the backbone out of a chicken as well as the top off a packet of bouillon. Not to mention the dozens of burns from the oven I’ve picked up since babyhood 75 years ago. For Heaven sake stop sweating the small stuff!
Meanwhile... On the other side of the pond...Chaco Canyon area... indigenous migration and mythos Are finally being heard within some academia...and leaps in understanding/misunderstood archeology are happening.
I noticed in your photo of the passage grave it was comprised if dry stone walling between large stones. Is there any evidence for or against dry stone walls built between any UK stone circles to either enclose the space or reflect sound if people were singing? Forgive me if you have already covered this topic elsewhere. Love your work guys. Rob Cracknell
Hi Rob, there is certainly no evidence against, but to be honest, I don't know what could ever show a negative for that. A few passage tombs have evidence for dry stone walling but no circles. If it was ever there, it has all been robbed as convenient building material. As for reflecting sound, the problem is that it would be almost impossible to prove intent. Any surface will change the acoustics of a site, but whether or not it was a deliberately imposed feature is another thing altogether. Michael and I think that the enclosing walls, if there were any, would have been horizontal timbers, long since rotted away. If they had been vertical, there would almost certainly be traces of posts in the soil. All best, Rupert.
Well... here's a thought. For what purpose were holes put in slate? Why... to make a shingle for a roof! So, there's daddy shingling a roof and there's a few odd shingles about... And the kids are bored, and momma is there trying to keep them out of trouble... so they take a shingle and scratch on it and make a drawing of an owl.
1:14:00 the cattle argument and look at a cattle auction place in canada and they are like circles with one end open and well damn its easy to see feed em and bring to market and didnt they find a ton a animal bones?
I only recently heard the weird legend of Tiamat. This has some strange details like her descendents living inside her and her husband being killed and his body being used as a boat. It occured to me that this rather makes sense if Tiamat was really an alien, sub-light, interstellar generation ship (takes centuries or millennia to travel between solar systems with the crew going through several generations). Any archaeological evidence of this? Well the Baltic Sea anomaly, the Yonaguni Monument and the shitz disc look awfully suspicious.
Not sure where that interpretation of the owls leaves Picasso, especially the ceramic pieces from late in his very long career. I would suggest the Spanish archaeologist take an art history course or two. Simplified geometric design can be a sign of sophistication and should not be assumed to be primitive or childlike. The workmanship on the owls in question looks rather fine to me.
about the sport arena idea - what about a corrida - a brutal sport with bulls of supposed cultic significance - the original Olimpic Games were also connected to worship, as were originally the gladiator games in the coloseum - so sport always seemed to have had cultic significance and be connected to sacrifce and "divine judgement"
Have a look at the first nation communities in Australia and the islands to our north to see the use of masks and ritual (and sometimes real) spear fights. Add in head hunting in the islands. These often were part of youths proving themselves as ready to be accepted as adults. Why would these practices not have been common in other areas. Maybe almost as sport.
I've long been with Michael on this. But he was the only one of the three who was drinking something interesting 😂 The no HUGE *no-duhs* in all of this is that, yes, people engaged in trade as long as there have been people. And mythology resonates with a very different truth apart from facts. And it's not as singular as we'd like to think. Why, for instance, does Navajo sand painting so closely resemble that in Nepal? Can't be direct influence unless the Asians crossing the land bridge carried it with them. TLDR the message of the myth informs as much as the message in the artifacts.
How is it that for over five millennia not a single person who ever got the idea that there might be treasure in Newgrange was able to do a danged thing about it? The bones were still there. Myth? Magic? Skepticism?
I think you definitely need to go down the Graham Hancock rabbit hole, rather than sniggering like a couple of kids who just seen the teachers knickers, lets have a serious debate. For the record, GH has never aligned himeslf with the ancient aliens fiasco.
There are several CZcams channels that have recently released response videos about the GH Netfix series. I just can't see a need for a serious live debate. GH, from what I have seen, enjoys the chance to speak and is less good at listening. That is just my opinion obviously. And I agree that he has nothing to do with the Alien side, but he does think that drug use and mind control allowed ancients to lift large stones.
The title "Myth vs Archeology" is humorous. It's like comparing and contrasting potatoes with river rocks that look similar to potatoes. Historically true mythology is certainly more nourishing for the appetite. Sorry, not gonna watch this one.
Where I live in Melbourne, there has recently been confirmation by geologists that a local Aboriginal story about a giant tsunami creating Port Phillip Bay accurately describes the creation of the bay at the end of the last ice age.
That's so cool!!
That’s just brilliant 🤩
Nah!!! The stone owls are very sophisticated
Ok. the best hour and forty minutes I've spent in a long time . If you don't bring back Anthony Murphy back soon I'll have to unsubscribe you. OK, not really. I'm not like that.
Please. Please. Please keep this kind of quality going.
Anthony, keep on keeping on. your insights are quite refreshing.At 75 years old ,I find it innately profound how little we know with the abundance information we have. yes, it Is the bias we been indrocturnated with that keeps us in our place. My biggest fear is the I'll not have enough time to find my way through all of this as I have awakened so late in the game. However, I have awakened.:D.
So many times I've looked at digs which destroy everything not rock hard.., this was great work on fibres in Finland.
Wonderful conversation, I feel I'm getting a good education and lots of mental stimulation with your videos and I'm thoroughly enjoying them.
I love your knowledge Prehistory Guys but not more than I love your beings, characters, sense of humors and humbleness. Thank you for being you. Such joy just listening to you both!
I will second that 👍
Listening to the news about the burial in Finland, I'm having flashbacks to reading Island of the Blue Dolphins by Scott Dell. It's set in the islands of southern California but the main character makes a skirt of Cormorant Feathers. It's a fiction book but it's based on a true story and the skirt is documented. I love seeing such commonalities in such disparate places as SoCal and Finland.
We have the same rock "kite" traps off the shore of Lake Huron near Alpena Michigan dating from 9,000 years ago, they were used for hunting Caribou. They are at least that old because that's the last time the area was above water. They found obsidian from Oregon in one of the hunting blinds.
Hi Smith Dog, yes, we did a news piece in one of the Prehistory Shows about the hunting traps beneath Lake Huron. You certainly have some amazing archaeology hidden in those waters! R
If you did not catch the live show you missed the prehistory preshow. The 2 holes in the owls would make it hang from a wall or belt, shirt, etc. Do not know the size but they would make a nice ornament. The best part is when Anthony mentions Graham and Michael's expression is priceless. Nice red pickup Rupert very "american" of you, love it. I know there are pickups elsewhere but North America is bashed for having pickups. In the north they use stone piles and you only need a person every 5-10 stone stacks and the caribou will turn and go into the paddock. Thank you gents again, stay safe and healthy.
Now, if you were a Patreon supporter ( maybe you are ) you would know why Michael and Rupert were smiling at the mention of Graham Hancock
PS. Patreon supporters get to see the uncut Michael and Rupert. So to anyone who is not a supporter, if you love what they do, if they bring a bit of joy into your life and you can spare a little cash then come along and join the behind the scenes crew.
A lot of interest, even proudness on celtic history could be also found in Czech Republic (and Slovakia) coincidentaly, one of the oldest celtic sites could be found around Bratislava, southern Moravia, southern Bohemia (the province itself is still called after Boia tribes) and Prague. Especially oppidum "Závist" is one of the best celtic sites ever. Actually it seems, that Celts came to western Europe from central Europe... :-)
Anthony is a treasure himself with his intellectual knowledge and deep passion for his research, and love for informing. Bringing life to the myth he has a gift of captivating his audience.
Fascinating, thank you. I am wondering about any possible traces of Pictish mythology. Irish myths came to Scotland. Were there later Irish and Scottish versions of the same story, the Scottish one showing Pictish influence? Probably impossible to know.
I found you two when I discovered ‘ Standing with Stones’ a long time ago. I’ve watched ‘Standing…..’ three times. I think it’s brilliant..
Thank you Sandy, much appreciated:) R
@ Sandy Mccrone
Me too, some time 2019. And I couldn't stop watching. It is brilliant!
Then I wanted to buy the book for my brother. It cost a fortune, so I didn't order it. But I managed to get Mr. Hoskin's book Metamorphosis second hand and well kept from a library in the US.
So that's how I came here - with the help of Time Team and the algorithm.
I’m a huge Time Team fan. I’ve watched my favourite episodes from the former series over and over. Now I am subscribed to the new Time Team series.
@@sandymccrone5676 yes me too, again
Great show. Today. Only getting see on sunday. Anthony was very interesting.
Regards Gobekli, I think it was actually a necropolis
The dead had a ceremony in the circular enclosures, before being transferred to the square rooms behind, for bodily decay. And then a few years later the bones were gathered ip and taken home, as in traditional Judaic custom. This is why the square rooms behind all contain a small T-pillar. They were sacred rooms, not functional rooms.
Funnily enough, the 1st century Edessan monarchy (which was based at Edessa, right next to Gobekli), had a similar necropolis on top of hills at Sogmatar, just south of Karahan Tepe. And these circular ‘tombs’ were indeed a part of a necropolis (although some 9,000 years later). And if you go east of Harran, the commoner’s necropolis was equally extensive (think Rome or Paris catacombs…)
Likewise, Chaco Canyon appears to be the same. Again they have circular ritual centers, with square rooms behind for the entombment of the dead. Again, Chaco appears to be a necropolis. Yet this is again some 9,000 years and 5,000 miles displaced from Gobekli, despite the similarities.
Remember that ancient peoples placed much of their wealth (time) into temples and burials (tombs). Thus the largest structures from the past are likely to be necropolises.
Gobekli Tepe, and all the other Tepes, are likely to be necropolises.
Ralph
I'm interested in the idea that our ancestors were averse to the negative social impacts of accumulation of wealth. Thereby disposing of previous metals into graves and lakes. Dumps, not hoards ?
A good deal of Irish mythology reads like somebody's freakiest acid trip. Fascinating, confusing, and often beautiful. The first one I read was The Destruction of Da Derga's Hostel. Trippy, man. And then quite a few others. The Irish tales just FEEL incredibly old, and certainly not much like 12th century stories in other languages of the region.
Yes, and that feeling of being truly "old" is bolstered by the presence, in some of the stories, of information that could NOT have been known in the era in which they were written down.
@@mythicalireland I'm afraid that I have never encountered, in a lifetime of extensive reading of ancient literature and mythology across the planet, any case of such tales containing "information that could not have been known in the era in which they were written down." Mystics and religious people of every sort constantly claim this to be the case, but the evidence supporting such claims is zero.
This is just brilliant! We must apply common sense...common behavior, to our assessment of these sites. As a southerner from a family with a strong oral tradition, I am inclined to believe that there is usually a kernel of truth in our mythology.
Exactly! A kernel of truth. Not necessarily a comprehensive repository of historical and factual information, but a fragmentary archive of Neolithic memories.
@@mythicalireland there is a story about a man who lived in Tbilisi in the 19th century who was the inheritor and teller of oral history. One of the stories he told was the Poem of Gilgamesh. In about 1920 his son picked up a newspaper that reported the discovery of the stellae in Mesopotamia with that poem carved into it in cuneiform writing. It was almost verbatim the story he had heard his father tell many times. It is not that the details of the story are true, but that some event occurred that was so profound a myth was created and preserved intact in the oral tradition for thousands of years. The Biblical story of Noah and the flood could well have been first heard by the Jewish community in Mesopotamia where part of the Old Testament was written.
It seems there were very strict rules among those given the task of preserving oral traditions to not deviate from the earliest versions and that deviations only occurred when these stories were coopted by other cultures and by word of mouth in the general public.
In the case of the flood stories we now know that the melting of the ice sheets caused vast flooding and the disappearance of whole land masses...the kernel of truth.
I feel more than a kernel. The story had to have originated from somewhere. I always joked witha friend that if Alton Towers was dug up 1500 years from now, the archaeologists would think it was some kind of temple to the God, Nemesis.
I would suggest that the inscription on the fine toothed comb may be an advertisement of the maker’s skills.
I also thoroughly agree with the idea that humans lived in the past as they live now; we do mundane things to make our way through the day and month and year. Games, stargazing, scratching itches of many sorts are more relatable than everyone centering on a priesthood and religious identity. The funniest interpretation I have come across of cave art, was a hushed explanation of female figures with exaggerated sexual characteristics in remote parts of caves, supposedly for worship. I had a younger brother, and reared a son, and thus have a more earthy viewpoint of these alcoves.
Loved this comment.
I did chuckle at the theory of some of the cave art. I think that's just brilliant honestly and having once been a teenage lad... it's more than feasible.😂
@@scottlaugher-flintknapping - thank you! And as self-release is virtually universal, I’ve never really understood all the hushed skittish references to such actions. Ah, humans.
‘Down time’. Thank you! The gruesome and/or romantic obsession with those ‘arenas’ being sites of religious ritual has always bothered me. I wouldn’t argue against there having been sites used for or dedicated to spiritual matters, but I have often felt there were quite likely to be many other purposes, including entertainment or the study or tracking of seasons. Very grateful for such a common-sense perspective.
So EXCITING!!! ❤
in the 'Anabasis of Xenophon' there's a passage where Xenophon goes wandering thru an abandoned city, its a well known archeology site now, but when Xenophon was there it had only been abandoned for about 200 years.
Thanks
Brilliant premise!!!
in 'standing with stones' - 'future archeologists' were mentioned a few times - here's a video of 'future archeologists'., the science fiction channel 'Dust' the video 'Alientologists'. - its all archeology, but the exciting bit starts at about 5 min. in - If you ever NEED a smile on your face watch this!
Interesting theory on the desert "kites" - even today, a line of canvas held up on stakes can be used to funnel sheep or cattle into a yard for drafting. If you don't have working dogs to help, it's almost the only way to get the sheep yarded effectively.
Re: painting of the Finnish grave: exquisite work, on painting and archeology.
Really stimulating and facinating discussion on world megaliths from you guys. The contribution of your Irish guest on inter-relationship between fields of knowledge and their potential to enrich and inform each other is very well made. I particularly loved his point about genetic research and stories of incest, perhaps among the Gods. There has also been connections of human genetic material found in Newgrange and that found in Carrowmore, I think . Altogether Anthony Murphy makes an excellent argument for more collabouration between archaeology and mythology. Thank yoy to the three of you for a very interesting programme & happy 2024 to you ! ( Seen your piece one year late)
Excited to dig into this!
Great guest.Thanks.
The kids might have been learning skills their parents used. Cheers
I believe we need all forms of science/ology ( archaeology, geology and so on, to mythology) and history to form a clear picture of the past... Without these collective skills it's like putting a jigsaw together without a picture... The two holes would have been for the string if there meant to be pendants, one hole would have caused the things to turn sideways and got all tangled.
I would ask that you examine the story of the arrival of Tuatha de Dannan and the First Battle of Moy Tura. The Tuatha and the Firbolgs meet and discuss how they will battle. They compare weapons and upon realizing that the Tuatha have superior spears they exchange a proportion of the weapons to equal the battle. The spears are described in detail. The Tuatha were carrying atlatls. The Firbolg were carrying stout stabbing spears with burnt tips. This would be the type of spear that the Neanderthals carried. Now at this point these would not be full Neanderthal but they could be higher percentage than the Tuatha and being isolated when Doggerland flooded maintaining a higher percentage and didn't get updates on their weapons. When the Firbolgs lost they moved to one of the traditional divisions of Ireland. It could be proven one way or another with DNA test between the old and the new.
Fascinating story. I recently learned I have an ancestor named Hennessy which if you go back to its origins has something to do with the chief of the Firbolgs. I think there is a wealth of information encoded in our myths and legends that can point us towards the direction of our origins and ancient cultures.
absolutely brilliant!!!
Always love hearing about my ancient ancestors Clan MacNeil of Barra direct descendants of Niall of the nine hostages.
Watching this the day after the solstice actually, that’s how behind I am on my Watch Later list!
Great show as always, and a really enjoyable interview with Anthony Murphy.
Thanks, Guys!
Something to consider pertaining to the owl theory...When people migrate, abandon, or die at a site, their religious items would either go with them or be destroyed by the invaders. Children's toys, on the other hand, would be left strewn about like the Lego's on you kid's bedroom floor. This could be said of other megalithic finds around the world.
👍👍👍👍👍- enjoyed these observations and information.
For me looking at those 'stone walls' in Turkey, the first thing that comes to my simple thoughts on it, is they look like stones placed to redirect rain water for the purpose of collecting enough water for crops/agriculture in a drying climate. It is an old way of collecting water, or irrigation if you like, for crops in agricultural areas where there isn't enough (or no longer is enough) water for agriculture. This area in Turkey wasn't always so dry. If people were hunter/gatherers and agriculturalists at the time of the stone walls that seem to be culminating in a focal point where the fossils of water animals is seems to lean towards water collection and the breaks in the walls allows for a wide coverage of collected/irrigated water. Just a thought. For there to be be herds of animals you need vegetation which is long gone and to have agriculture you need water which also is long gone. The pattern of desertification is usually the absence of trees. Hunter gatherers would only be cutting down trees (if they did at all) for shelter and fire. Agricultural needs for cutting down trees would be for access to more land for planting crops to feed a growing population which would grow faster than the population growth of hunter/gatherers. Which group would likely deplete the area of trees faster and cause a lack of water and water retension? Who would need the stone walls more and have a greater drive to put in that amount of work needed to build them? Hunter gatherers usually are nomadic and travel with the herds. Agricultural tribes usually stay in one place?
Anthony not be mythological, but he is certainly epic. I try to catch everything he does.
sounds like a lovely projec. think ill watch all 5 when they come out
Congratulations on a fantastic episode, will the megalithic ‘temples’ and hypogea of Malta be covered in your new 5 part series?
Definitely on the list!
The answer is ‘yes’.
The Greek mythology of the Cyclops is obviously the skull of a dwarf elephant.
The Greek mythology of the Thalos, is obviously a story of the eruption of Thera-Santorini.
The Greek and Arthurian mythology of the floating islands, is obviously the floating islands of pumice from Santorini.
The Greek mythology of Atlantis is obviously about Santorini.
The Greek mythology of the biblical Exodus is obviously the historical Exodus of the Hyksos pharaohs, combined with the eruption of Santorini (the Plagues, including the claimed ashfall and tsunami parting of waters).
etc: etc: etc:
Ralph
@Ralph Ellis - Exactly. I've read some of your books. Quite insightful. I have been waiting for these guys to delve into your research and observations to present their thoughts. I'm sure Anthony Murphy would have some very interesting comments as well. All three of them should actually have you come and speak in one of their vids and vice versus.
Sometimes you just want a place to dance because you want too.
The same type of stone “walls” for guiding the movement of wild herd animals have been positively identified under Lake Huron between Michigan and Ontario Canada. They were used for Caribou hunting and are many thousands of years old. Archeologists admit they’re real but prefer not to talk about it.😂
Surely, the kites and other similar structures worldwide were primarily used seasonaly to hunt migratory species. Even if they did preserve the meet, it seems probable that the people moved on to other seasonal sources of food in other areas
Its an interesting business, fleshing out a specific scene in pre-history based on archeological evidence on site PLUS what we know from other sites,
No one ever considers the use of timber scaffolds and truss frames when speculating how the pyramids were built, but we know they used scaffolding. No one considers animal labor, because no animals are shown in any surviving images of old kingdom monument building, BUT we know they had animals. Weird.
Echoes of obsolete technology in Irish myths cannot be insignificant, because technology is never insignificant. Technology is always a big deal, because it is associated with social specialisation and status, and collective identity. Your clan may be famous for making certain widgets, you may not be personally any good at making widgets, but among strangers you are part of the clan that makes widgets.
When Mr. Murphy said he was riding a bike while playing a euphonium he unconsciously worked his lips; it wasn't an exaggeration but the drone footage can't compete with the image in my head. Were you trying to scare fairies? Did it work?
Rewatching the video I know what time you were playing. "The Drogheda Marshes" from "1001 Irish tunes"
That has to be one of the more magical Irish images I can come up with.
Again, well done gentlemen.
I am always astonished at how stupid people think our ancestors were. They are displayed as being backwards, not getting out of their corners of the world, being naive. Actually, we should imagine them more like us today being stranded on an island without electricity, technology and internet - in short: without our conveniences and comforts. Would we find out how to do things? Sure, if we wanted to survive! Same goes for our ancestors. And I always cringe inside whe archaeologists start speaking of "ritual sites". I doubt that people were more religious than we are today, because that what we consider a dangerous environment that they lived in, for them was the normal. They wanted to have fun just as we do, and they were inventive just as we are. And the turkish sites as Göbekli Tepe are the first ones who gave the first clues that farming possibly came after the "invention" of large settlements.
Thanks for this very interesting and enlightening episode, not only on finds, but also on Irish Myths!
Depends what you mean by 'religion' and 'ritual'... People place their focus and ritual action on different things in different cultures and time periods. Rituals are used in both religious and secular settings - if you think of ritual as a repeated action, custom or occasion then you might understand why that term is used?
If you have lived in a community that lives close to nature then you will contrast how it effects one's outlook on life - it's different from the outlook of a person who is reliant on urban comforts and ignorant of how life can be enjoyed without modern inventions. No doubt we will continue to revise our appreciation of our ancestors' lives as more archaeological discoveries are made, and of course there will be many opinions as to what the discoveries are actually revealing! 😉
Owls have beaks, as every child's picture shows!
Unicorns. Bones found in Kazakhstan from a period not coterminous with humans. Very similar to the earliest portrayals in engravings of unicorns as a limber, hairy rhinoceros rather than Arab horse with barley sugar stick on head.
I wonder if anyone has done a study about the dangerous toys that were sold in the 1950’s that parents bought lawn darts chemistry sets I am having a seniors moment ah BB Guns etc .I was given a black board as a tween all I drew were ballgowns and horses standing in fields of grass because I wasn’t sure what the feet should look like but I knew the basic shape …I am writing this silly comment in response to your question about parents gifting their children spiked toys😮😅😊 I am the person who hit the 👍🙋🏼♀️as you were saying 24likes
Remember the bows and arrow sets that we played with? Nearly all kids I knew had a small pen knife tucked in their shorts pockets, these were popular gifts for those aged 6-11, along side catapults for ratting expeditions. You'll no doubt have seen documentaries of toddlers learning to handle machetes in some rural African communities - no one snatches the machetes away from the children. The PGs don't know it all... 😉😉 Having said that I would opt for the Owl items being ornaments/decorations rather than toys.
@@edelgyn2699 I don’t remember playing with bows and arrows I remember that I and my sisters played with Tonka toys and collected matchbox cars we were an interesting set of girls who didn’t play with knives and had political bumper stickers on our baby doll carriages ..all the way with Chet MacRae that was on my youngest sisters after I was older and no longer playing with dolls well I did knit clothes for their Barbie dolls needles can be dangerous I accidentally put one into the sole of my 🦶 👋🙋🏼♀️👋👍👍👍🍀🖖🖖🖖🤷🏼♀️
@@lindagates9150if I worried about the dangerous things in my house knitting needles would be the least of it! There are kitchen knives between 6 and 14 inches that I try and keep very sharp so it doesn’t hurt so much when I cut myself. There are cast iron frying pans of 6 sizes and bug stew pots. Stainless steel copper center pots that my mother was persuaded to get that have “ears” rather than a long handle to be “Safer”. Scissors capable of cutting the backbone out of a chicken as well as the top off a packet of bouillon. Not to mention the dozens of burns from the oven I’ve picked up since babyhood 75 years ago. For Heaven sake stop sweating the small stuff!
Meanwhile...
On the other side of the pond...Chaco Canyon area... indigenous migration and mythos Are finally being heard within some academia...and leaps in understanding/misunderstood archeology are happening.
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I noticed in your photo of the passage grave it was comprised if dry stone walling between large stones. Is there any evidence for or against dry stone walls built between any UK stone circles to either enclose the space or reflect sound if people were singing? Forgive me if you have already covered this topic elsewhere. Love your work guys. Rob Cracknell
Hi Rob, there is certainly no evidence against, but to be honest, I don't know what could ever show a negative for that. A few passage tombs have evidence for dry stone walling but no circles. If it was ever there, it has all been robbed as convenient building material. As for reflecting sound, the problem is that it would be almost impossible to prove intent. Any surface will change the acoustics of a site, but whether or not it was a deliberately imposed feature is another thing altogether. Michael and I think that the enclosing walls, if there were any, would have been horizontal timbers, long since rotted away. If they had been vertical, there would almost certainly be traces of posts in the soil. All best, Rupert.
Used COMPLIMENT (praise) instead of COMPLEMENT (add to) in one of the captions!
About the owls...2 holes... any chance of a necklace/ brestplate?
ok so you just said they were pendents
Well... here's a thought. For what purpose were holes put in slate? Why... to make a shingle for a roof! So, there's daddy shingling a roof and there's a few odd shingles about...
And the kids are bored, and momma is there trying to keep them out of trouble... so they take a shingle and scratch on it and make a drawing of an owl.
It would have also taken quite a bit of strength to etch the detail on that owl.
1:14:00 the cattle argument
and look at a cattle auction place in canada and they are like circles
with one end open
and well damn its easy to see
feed em and bring to market
and didnt they find a ton a animal bones?
Was the ring made by hunter gathers
I only recently heard the weird legend of Tiamat. This has some strange details like her descendents living inside her and her husband being killed and his body being used as a boat. It occured to me that this rather makes sense if Tiamat was really an alien, sub-light, interstellar generation ship (takes centuries or millennia to travel between solar systems with the crew going through several generations). Any archaeological evidence of this? Well the Baltic Sea anomaly, the Yonaguni Monument and the shitz disc look awfully suspicious.
Not sure where that interpretation of the owls leaves Picasso, especially the ceramic pieces from late in his very long career. I would suggest the Spanish archaeologist take an art history course or two. Simplified geometric design can be a sign of sophistication and should not be assumed to be primitive or childlike. The workmanship on the owls in question looks rather fine to me.
about the sport arena idea - what about a corrida - a brutal sport with bulls of supposed cultic significance - the original Olimpic Games were also connected to worship, as were originally the gladiator games in the coloseum - so sport always seemed to have had cultic significance and be connected to sacrifce and "divine judgement"
The sun standing still reminds my non-Irish mind think of Joshua causing the Sun to Stand still at Gideon.
Are you going to skip Sardinia in your series to come?
Hi Janko, Sardinia is very solidly on the list:) R
@@ThePrehistoryGuys Thanks!
I believe Mr. Murphy studied euphonium with the legendary Incredible Shrinking Man.
Have a look at the first nation communities in Australia and the islands to our north to see the use of masks and ritual (and sometimes real) spear fights. Add in head hunting in the islands. These often were part of youths proving themselves as ready to be accepted as adults.
Why would these practices not have been common in other areas. Maybe almost as sport.
Where does oral history end and mythology begin?
I've long been with Michael on this. But he was the only one of the three who was drinking something interesting 😂 The no HUGE *no-duhs* in all of this is that, yes, people engaged in trade as long as there have been people. And mythology resonates with a very different truth apart from facts. And it's not as singular as we'd like to think. Why, for instance, does Navajo sand painting so closely resemble that in Nepal? Can't be direct influence unless the Asians crossing the land bridge carried it with them. TLDR the message of the myth informs as much as the message in the artifacts.
Isn't football just stylised cattle raiding? Fighting for leather and a count of wins?
The kite is a scavenger species.
How is it that for over five millennia not a single person who ever got the idea that there might be treasure in Newgrange was able to do a danged thing about it? The bones were still there. Myth? Magic? Skepticism?
There is an Egyptian Cinderella much older than the Chinese one.
Over 30 % allEuropean rock art is found at knowth Ireland.
All owl have beaks in children's drawings. An other argument against this theory as those tablets don't have beaks. Not owls
YOu might consider dancing to attract a mate at the Bru.
Yeah! Red Pickups reach the Old World!
Am I watching: The 2 Ronnies? Bob and Ray? Cheech and Chong?
How about incense burners??? Just an old hippy thought.
A stone butchering block? They are made of wood for a reason...
Why are these called Kites?
The desert kites? They are named so because from the air they look like the traditional kite shape. Michael.
Farming would appear to be more advantageous than ‘hunting’ and gathering the pregnanter you are.
Nah!!! The stone owls are very sophisticated
I think I will make some of those owls and hang them on the wall.
On owls: More likely for a cord for wearing as a talisman?Made by ADULTS!
Maybe they were made by adults for children. Hawaiian natives peck out stone balls for their children to play a game, even today.
I think 12 year olds could of done the owls if they had a bit of talent and OCD.
Oh, another child grave.😢I don't care how long ago, nothing sadder.
The Christian brothers were a bad lot by any standards.
I think you definitely need to go down the Graham Hancock rabbit hole, rather than sniggering like a couple of kids who just seen the teachers knickers, lets have a serious debate. For the record, GH has never aligned himeslf with the ancient aliens fiasco.
There are several CZcams channels that have recently released response videos about the GH Netfix series. I just can't see a need for a serious live debate. GH, from what I have seen, enjoys the chance to speak and is less good at listening. That is just my opinion obviously. And I agree that he has nothing to do with the Alien side, but he does think that drug use and mind control allowed ancients to lift large stones.
You guys are just too chatty.
Tom Bjorklund has produced a lot of garbage renditions based on no factual evidence and at time contrary to real evidence.
The title "Myth vs Archeology" is humorous. It's like comparing and contrasting potatoes with river rocks that look similar to potatoes. Historically true mythology is certainly more nourishing for the appetite. Sorry, not gonna watch this one.
Sorry to have to say this guys, but get your act together, this is borderline unwatchable
Out of interest why do you say that - is it the content or presentation, or both?
I just love ❤️ you guys!