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I don’t think it’s fair to analyze the matchups without seeing the jungle matchups. TF vs Sylas can be volatile depending on jungle and that is going to play a part in both of these players lanes. We would have no idea if these plans were specific to these game or not. The Doinb example wouldn’t even work this season because of TP changes so he might not play the lane the same way now because he can’t make that play anymore.
If you go by that logic, even with the same jungler matchup, it's impossible to analyze the matchup because some junglers choose to gank early while some path top/bot. The thing is, both players played very safe which avoided ganks and both played aggressively so they could roam if needed. You also need to factor in that DoinB roams a lot and Chovy doesn't. It's an analysis of which playstyle you want to play so regardless the video still holds a lot of value
There are too many small things happening to pinpoint why they picked to do what, and I don't think this is a player's specific strategy it's simply them doing what's best in each situation It also depends a lot on how their teammates want to play For example when Chovy crashed second wave, he was able to put a ward on raptors and found out about Xin Zhao clearing bot to top which is why his team pushed into bot side river/jungle and had full control, this allowed for his bot lane to pressure enemy bot lane and probably create a cs lead for themselves In Doinb's game Viego cleared from bot to top then searched for top dive, this was probably communicated within the team so Doinb knew his jungler isn't playing around him and keeping Sylas under tower doesn't achieve anything so he instead played for the best lane scenario he can have for his own benefit which is the wave slow pushing towards him and Sylas having to burn his mana to crash the wave and do a bad recall
Depends on jg and sup a lot but most of the time in a control mage vs melee I like slow push into crash on cannon and hold under tower, just safest choice and as keeping the wave on my side of the lane is something I have been doing for a while I have gotten fairly comfortable with csing under tower/when getting pushed into, if it is a match up without much threat on me and weak ganks pushing for plates and to punish desperation roams is good. Just no point taking risks if you outscale anyway.
I disagree. If i'd like to I could just listen to my own preferred music in the background when binging your videos. From a content creators' perspective I can understand that it probably helps keep viewers watch longer when they don't listen to silence but personally I'd prefer no music, and larger Text.
It's really okay to have not music if there's an actual voice over for the tutorial video but if there's not, it's kind of boring when watching. But I do understand your point when you say you could just choose your preferred music when watching if you dislike the music in the video. You can try muting the video thou since the video shows commentary in the form of text.
Doinb strat is safer and more passive compared to chovy more aggressive and shove every wave. Chovy style could get u in big trouble if u don't know where the enemy jungle is plus sometime enemy supports are engage sp who loves to roam mid and punish u. Also if sylas has ignite against twisted fate. One mistake he will kill u since sylas is a assassin mage who can burst twisted fate in a closed combat 1v1. It all comes down to experience and how comfortable u are playing as tf and against specific matchups. Not everyone can be chovy, because he hardly make mistakes and he's too smart with his wave control and has insane mechanics on every champs knowing when to take trades and not to.
i think chovy decided to do this strategy because xin zhao, being an early gank threat, is able to gank by minute 2:15-2:30. if you look at doinb strategy, by this time he is trying to collect the third wave to crash it, so he would be in great danger against xin zhao, but in chovy's game he is in a much safer position by crashing second wave.
to clarify, they played with the same strat till 4th wave. in doinb's game, sylas gave him the range to get AA and that's why tf automatically slows push the first wave. Sylas kept giving a range for no reason and Doinb was punishing him and slow pushing, intentionally or unintentionally. Chovy couldn't find any range to harass cus sylas playing better. he arranged the wave in a way that sylas cannot last hit with Q, and Chovy kept pushing the minions under the tower with the 2nd wave. That's cuz he doesn't wanna bounce back. He got the vision and kept crushing 3rd wave, which is not risky. he knows by the ward that Xin got Raptors and not going to the river so TF is safe. xin ganks mid only after getting all the 3 red side camps or 2 level gank. he knew Xin was going to play for his bot side after that ward and he was safe. Doinb just pushed all the minions under the tower with the 3rd wave but 4th wave will bounce back which is not good for pro games because it is scuttle time or it gave time to sylas to recall since he could slow push now. doinb could crush 4th wave with the minion dem. item and just walk to top side instead of teleporting. Chovy did it and kept the pressure cuz he could.
Your videos are so detailed and well analyzed! It would also be helpful if you did more midgame analysis, even if you had to cut out portions of the entire game ^^
i like doinb one duo to big wave he stack which lead to sylas cant trade in big wave and even if jgl come to gank you put him in bad moment help his jgl to secure kill in tf or lose minions
@@6700adam In chovy's case at the end of the clip TF had 49 CS and Sylas had 37. that's what I meant. and When DoinB tp-d Chovy was 3 cs ahead of DoinB
The difference between the two is Doinb Knows how to Lane Management But Chovy knows too but he can decide whether to Brute Force his enemy lane or outsmart him because he can literally play any champs on the mid and not losing lane at all
Chovy had a more dominant lane but Doinb had more prio to help his team. On this specific champ, Doinb's lane is better because TF doesn't need to be fed but is only picked to help his team
@Alex2005z You should look up the performances of PSG at worlds / MSI. They're arguably better than Rogue. FPX and RGE were the 2 weakest teams of their group at worlds 2021, both not qualifying, while C9 managed to win against them and qualify as NA 3rd seed... Meanwhile FNC went 1/5 in PSG group, while they went 3 - 3. Funnily enough, PSG talon have korean imports as well, their actual midlaner has literally played for FPX in 2021. So yeah, we could easely argue FPX - RGE was actually lower level than HLE - PSG that year. PSG being a really competitive team.
i preferer doinbs playstyle cus he coulda cheater recalled, but instead he did other things which is fine. but also doinb enemy jgler is j4 and is more likely to gank whereas xin is less likely to, so its game dependent. still think doinbs way is better and smarter tho, cus he just wins by having way better recalls than sylas.
It's interesting to see how basic wave management strats in dota are high level in league (pulling the wave), mainly because of how different minion aggro is and how difficult it is to get the wave to go where you want it to
In the Chovy method you can lose the game very early, if Sylas had ignite and decided to just go forward he you for sure get the kill or at least a flash and with the wave even the way it was TF would lost a entire wave plus a kil
The thing is, while both playstyles seem smart, another thing to note is the info around the comms. Normally, ppl don't play with comms all that much so you are most of the time vulnerable to ganks. Thats why since chovy likes to already crash the 2nd wave and push every other wave, he would be more prone to Jungle ganks rather than Doinb.(If there's no comms, or jungler's location is unknown) So how I see it, if ur soloqueuing and don't know where's jg while playing TF vs Sylas, then I'd prefer Doinb cuz its a little safer.
Both players know to shove if their jungles looking for a dive, to shove if enemy just recalled/roamed, to freeze as default or to set up favorable trades, etc… All challengers know this.. In doinb’s matchup, since he is very weak early, doinb passively last hits instead of shoves because he does not want to be in a position to be ganked by the enemy jungler. He lets the opposing mid laner dictate the state of the lane. Chovy, in his matchup, needs to shove because freezing is not beneficial for him, since Sylas will have openings to solo kill/ win trades against him if he doesn’t push the lane. So Chovy shoves so Sylas is the one to last hit the minions under his tower, giving Chovy the tempo to look for ganks with his TF ult. If you switch the players in both instances, they will most likely play the same way. They are challengers, and know how to play the wave. They both don’t have a signature wave management style, they just manage the wave according to their matchups..
This is actually not true. Notice TF takes bone plate level 1. If Sylas wants to trade with TF, he must Q first to proc bone plate then follow up with E Auto E Auto. All of these players are best in their region, they have studied the game enough to know Sylas must start Q lvl 1.
If u are silver who doesn't stand behind or within ur minions yeah sure u get free hooked by sylas E chain. If he's that mad to go all in level 1 against u. He's going to draw minion aggro. Don't underestimate minion damage at level 1. Ur comment tells me ur bronze ngl.
@@TodayOnTheSuperServer it's just as simple as getting prio coz he can, thats tf's strong point against sylas. I mean you have valid points but the others are just too unnecessary. And doinb wasn't as aggressive as chovy because the enemy jungler is a jarvan.
![[Dopa Pro Analysis] | Wave Management GUIDE](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/yLlADO0Ptk4/mqdefault.jpg)
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I don’t think it’s fair to analyze the matchups without seeing the jungle matchups. TF vs Sylas can be volatile depending on jungle and that is going to play a part in both of these players lanes. We would have no idea if these plans were specific to these game or not. The Doinb example wouldn’t even work this season because of TP changes so he might not play the lane the same way now because he can’t make that play anymore.
If you go by that logic, even with the same jungler matchup, it's impossible to analyze the matchup because some junglers choose to gank early while some path top/bot. The thing is, both players played very safe which avoided ganks and both played aggressively so they could roam if needed.
You also need to factor in that DoinB roams a lot and Chovy doesn't. It's an analysis of which playstyle you want to play so regardless the video still holds a lot of value
@@LeniusRiven surely if they're playing TF they will roam after 6. Doinb just can't tp like that anymore, has to wait for 6
You can see the jungle matchup tho xD
There are too many small things happening to pinpoint why they picked to do what, and I don't think this is a player's specific strategy it's simply them doing what's best in each situation
It also depends a lot on how their teammates want to play
For example when Chovy crashed second wave, he was able to put a ward on raptors and found out about Xin Zhao clearing bot to top which is why his team pushed into bot side river/jungle and had full control, this allowed for his bot lane to pressure enemy bot lane and probably create a cs lead for themselves
In Doinb's game Viego cleared from bot to top then searched for top dive, this was probably communicated within the team so Doinb knew his jungler isn't playing around him and keeping Sylas under tower doesn't achieve anything so he instead played for the best lane scenario he can have for his own benefit which is the wave slow pushing towards him and Sylas having to burn his mana to crash the wave and do a bad recall
This is better for me than the actual voice for explanation. Thank you sir!
These guys are way too Better than I thought.. so much micro details..
Nice video. Thanks for upload.
Best guides in the world, so detailed!
Thank you very much!
Thank you for the videos like this appreciate them
Holy, thank you for this, amazing work
Depends on jg and sup a lot but most of the time in a control mage vs melee I like slow push into crash on cannon and hold under tower, just safest choice and as keeping the wave on my side of the lane is something I have been doing for a while I have gotten fairly comfortable with csing under tower/when getting pushed into, if it is a match up without much threat on me and weak ganks pushing for plates and to punish desperation roams is good. Just no point taking risks if you outscale anyway.
It is so interesting pls do more videos like this!
In my opinion, music does add a bit of excitement while watching the video. Thanks for the upload
i agree
I disagree. If i'd like to I could just listen to my own preferred music in the background when binging your videos. From a content creators' perspective I can understand that it probably helps keep viewers watch longer when they don't listen to silence but personally I'd prefer no music, and larger Text.
It's really okay to have not music if there's an actual voice over for the tutorial video but if there's not, it's kind of boring when watching. But I do understand your point when you say you could just choose your preferred music when watching if you dislike the music in the video. You can try muting the video thou since the video shows commentary in the form of text.
Doinb strat is safer and more passive compared to chovy more aggressive and shove every wave. Chovy style could get u in big trouble if u don't know where the enemy jungle is plus sometime enemy supports are engage sp who loves to roam mid and punish u. Also if sylas has ignite against twisted fate. One mistake he will kill u since sylas is a assassin mage who can burst twisted fate in a closed combat 1v1. It all comes down to experience and how comfortable u are playing as tf and against specific matchups. Not everyone can be chovy, because he hardly make mistakes and he's too smart with his wave control and has insane mechanics on every champs knowing when to take trades and not to.
i think chovy decided to do this strategy because xin zhao, being an early gank threat, is able to gank by minute 2:15-2:30. if you look at doinb strategy, by this time he is trying to collect the third wave to crash it, so he would be in great danger against xin zhao, but in chovy's game he is in a much safer position by crashing second wave.
to clarify, they played with the same strat till 4th wave. in doinb's game, sylas gave him the range to get AA and that's why tf automatically slows push the first wave. Sylas kept giving a range for no reason and Doinb was punishing him and slow pushing, intentionally or unintentionally. Chovy couldn't find any range to harass cus sylas playing better. he arranged the wave in a way that sylas cannot last hit with Q, and Chovy kept pushing the minions under the tower with the 2nd wave. That's cuz he doesn't wanna bounce back. He got the vision and kept crushing 3rd wave, which is not risky. he knows by the ward that Xin got Raptors and not going to the river so TF is safe. xin ganks mid only after getting all the 3 red side camps or 2 level gank. he knew Xin was going to play for his bot side after that ward and he was safe. Doinb just pushed all the minions under the tower with the 3rd wave but 4th wave will bounce back which is not good for pro games because it is scuttle time or it gave time to sylas to recall since he could slow push now. doinb could crush 4th wave with the minion dem. item and just walk to top side instead of teleporting. Chovy did it and kept the pressure cuz he could.
Your videos are so detailed and well analyzed! It would also be helpful if you did more midgame analysis, even if you had to cut out portions of the entire game ^^
I could wacht a video just about chovy farming, its just super cool to wacth every click and move are so smooth
Very instructive man, hope to see more of those videos to improve my LoL, subsribed
Please do more vids like this. way 2 much information
i like doinb one duo to big wave he stack which lead to sylas cant trade in big wave and even if jgl come to gank you put him in bad moment help his jgl to secure kill in tf or lose minions
chovy had more cs than doingB at the same timing
But i would like to know how much sylas had cs to see if chovy tech or doingb tech is better ^^
Chovy 49 - 37
DoinB clip ends sooner however. When doinB TP-s Chovy was 3 cs ahead.
@@CoachApuma i speak for sylas cs not tf cs
@@6700adam In chovy's case at the end of the clip TF had 49 CS and Sylas had 37. that's what I meant.
and When DoinB tp-d Chovy was 3 cs ahead of DoinB
@@CoachApuma
doinb has 43 CS with 1 kills in 5:35 (time in game)
while chovy has 49 CS with 0 kill
Playing against a minor region team while DoinB was playing against a strong team from a major region. The level of the opponents is also not the same
I love you dude ❤️
Amazing Video againnn !
My bronze 4 mind is exploding but as time goes on the vid i understand a bit more now
The difference between the two is Doinb Knows how to Lane Management But Chovy knows too but he can decide whether to Brute Force his enemy lane or outsmart him because he can literally play any champs on the mid and not losing lane at all
Same mid matchup but different side lane matchup and jungle. Generally you are correct, but it really doesn't mean much in this context.
this comment had no sense at all
Doinb is really good
I feel like a lot of the things you point out aren’t directly calculated…they are a result of knowing how to lane and playing matchups properly.
yes music pls
chovy's strategy gankable and no kill pressure on sylas, doinb ungankable but kill pressure on sylas.
❤
remember what dopa said about faker "1) he always pressured the enemy jg to come to his lane 2) he never dies to enemy jg
This is too much for my Gold brain to comprehend
it depends on to enemy jungler
do this with Khan please when he shit on odo and fudge on jax vs graves mathcup
This video is so old you could still TP to minions pre-10 minutes.
2021 Worlds. I don't think it's "so old."
@@TodayOnTheSuperServer The in-game micro still applies. Just something I noticed
2:00 Couldn't Slyas see where TF warded from the direction that TF went back to lane?
Nope
Doinb if my jg was invading/fighting, chovy for lane domination
last hit every minions, I'm bronze 😂
As TF, if you push the wave against sylas, you will get solo killed. But chovy does push in the wave every game to get that CS advantage.
Chovy had a more dominant lane but Doinb had more prio to help his team.
On this specific champ, Doinb's lane is better because TF doesn't need to be fed but is only picked to help his team
In terms of prio Chovy was the one who got it all game. When you freeze like doinb you want to force smth on mid but you won't be first to fight
what? doinb's style gives up prio to punish the enemy laner... literally the opposite of what you are saying
You’re literally wrong. Doinbs play style is to punish and get cs lead while Chovy is shove while waiting for jungler. Don’t speak man
Chovy was also playing against PSG, while DoinB was playing against RGE, who is a much better team
@Alex2005z You should look up the performances of PSG at worlds / MSI. They're arguably better than Rogue.
FPX and RGE were the 2 weakest teams of their group at worlds 2021, both not qualifying, while C9 managed to win against them and qualify as NA 3rd seed...
Meanwhile FNC went 1/5 in PSG group, while they went 3 - 3.
Funnily enough, PSG talon have korean imports as well, their actual midlaner has literally played for FPX in 2021.
So yeah, we could easely argue FPX - RGE was actually lower level than HLE - PSG that year. PSG being a really competitive team.
had to turn off sound after 50sec, i just cant with this music
I Dont know, i always love doinb play in LPL and chovy in LCK,,, they always the best midlaner
I don't see why it's ''TF *abuses* minion dematerializer'', isn't it just ''TF *uses* minion dematerializer" ?
tuy nhiên
Doinb = Safe
Chovy = Risky but with higher reward
Bruh the thing is us peps in na literally get 70-20ms per game compared too em im pre sure id last hit every single minion if i had 7ms lmaos
Bro how do you get this pov of players in a competetive match
youtube
can u do like this about jungle
Check out my Jungle educational guides!
personally, i prefer no music, great content anyway
Details 100
i preferer doinbs playstyle cus he coulda cheater recalled, but instead he did other things which is fine. but also doinb enemy jgler is j4 and is more likely to gank whereas xin is less likely to, so its game dependent. still think doinbs way is better and smarter tho, cus he just wins by having way better recalls than sylas.
It's interesting to see how basic wave management strats in dota are high level in league (pulling the wave), mainly because of how different minion aggro is and how difficult it is to get the wave to go where you want it to
Yeah i agree ..in dota you can block minions(specially in mid )so youll in up in the high ground plus you can deny cs from your enemy
musics good but way too loud
Quite old videos
S11 Worlds
Music?
Feel Good by Syn Cole
whats the music name?
Brook Xiao - Fire (Lyrics) feat. Rachel Horter
@@kongdedboonlang6541 thanks do you know the first song
@@scotthong1183 Feel Good by Syn Cole
In the Chovy method you can lose the game very early, if Sylas had ignite and decided to just go forward he you for sure get the kill or at least a flash and with the wave even the way it was TF would lost a entire wave plus a kil
Not really Chovy can always dodge his E and u gold card to stun and he has flash but if sylas take ignite he will be camped af
@@Hello-to8mv thats why its more risky, and there is a huge possibility that you will fck up your mechanics while executinv such a play.
@@Hello-to8mv to sum it up, his playstyle is not for everyone, only for those mechanically gifted enough to avoid getting punished for overaggression
bro is playing chess with his minions XD ill stick to coin flipping the entire game lvl 2
So Doinb is LS enjoyer?
How so?
@@TodayOnTheSuperServer He’s a proponent for freezing waves
The thing is, while both playstyles seem smart, another thing to note is the info around the comms. Normally, ppl don't play with comms all that much so you are most of the time vulnerable to ganks. Thats why since chovy likes to already crash the 2nd wave and push every other wave, he would be more prone to Jungle ganks rather than Doinb.(If there's no comms, or jungler's location is unknown) So how I see it, if ur soloqueuing and don't know where's jg while playing TF vs Sylas, then I'd prefer Doinb cuz its a little safer.
How old is this clip? This was before the teleport rework
Worlds 2021
Video is good but stop the music pls.
What game?
2021 worlds
Both players know to shove if their jungles looking for a dive, to shove if enemy just recalled/roamed, to freeze as default or to set up favorable trades, etc…
All challengers know this..
In doinb’s matchup, since he is very weak early, doinb passively last hits instead of shoves because he does not want to be in a position to be ganked by the enemy jungler. He lets the opposing mid laner dictate the state of the lane.
Chovy, in his matchup, needs to shove
because freezing is not beneficial for him, since Sylas will have openings to solo kill/ win trades against him if he doesn’t push the lane. So Chovy shoves so Sylas is the one to last hit the minions under his tower, giving Chovy the tempo to look for ganks with his TF ult.
If you switch the players in both instances, they will most likely play the same way. They are challengers, and know how to play the wave. They both don’t have a signature wave management style, they just manage the wave according to their matchups..
They had the same matchup sylas vs tf what are you saying?
Wait IM HIGH AS FUCK LMAO
Reality: Sylas Starts E and chunks you to half.
This is actually not true. Notice TF takes bone plate level 1. If Sylas wants to trade with TF, he must Q first to proc bone plate then follow up with E Auto E Auto. All of these players are best in their region, they have studied the game enough to know Sylas must start Q lvl 1.
@@TodayOnTheSuperServer
If u are silver who doesn't stand behind or within ur minions yeah sure u get free hooked by sylas E chain. If he's that mad to go all in level 1 against u. He's going to draw minion aggro. Don't underestimate minion damage at level 1. Ur comment tells me ur bronze ngl.
no music pls
That second song god that singing was annoying.
don't overthink it lol.
The game is harder than you think
when people say league players don't use brain they really don't XD
@@user-qe3lk9se5l true lol, thats the difference the pros and other players
@@TodayOnTheSuperServer it's just as simple as getting prio coz he can, thats tf's strong point against sylas. I mean you have valid points but the others are just too unnecessary. And doinb wasn't as aggressive as chovy because the enemy jungler is a jarvan.
@@renras1057 and bc his lanes didnt have great setup. Renekton has way better gank setup than Jayce, and viego isnt the best ganking jungler anyways