I'll be honest it's the social aspect that gives tob a barrier. Some players wants to do it themselves; some thinks it's hard; and new players don't want to be flamed by the randoms they joined.
During the Trailblazer League I decided to pick Morytania as my last area so that I could learn ToB in an easier game mode before doing it on normal worlds. I grinded hard, finished Godwars within 2 weeks to get max gear, and was in the top 200 skill total in the game when I made it to ToB. I spent the next week trying to find a group that would be willing to teach a newbie how to do ToB. Even though I was insanely strong, and it was a for-fun game mode, no one wanted to invite me because I had never done it before. Quit Trailblazers after that, even though it was probably the most fun I had ever had playing OSRS. It felt really bad to be stuck because no one wanted to teach me.
Sometimes you have to be willing to teach yourself. In the last league with the right setup tob was a lot more easily soloable. I would have recommended just running solo entry modes until it felt so easy you had to start trying normals.
I thought it would be good to learn that way too, but it didn't work out that way. I was way too op. I mean, I was literally afking the entire fight caves every time I logged out to get 200 mil range xp. I got a couple tob kc, and an inferno cape, but I literally ignored most of the mechanics and could just face tank shit that is supposed to kill you. I didn't even have to look up a guide for the inferno and I got it my third attempt. I just got a group of randoms who also wanted to learn tob and we tore through it. One guy had like 10 kc and got the scythe and was melee only soloing it on like his second day ever doing it. I just read this and it sounds like I'm bragging. I'm not. I can't do either in the main game. I'm just trying to say that you didn't miss the opportunity you think you did.
@@eugenesis8188 You're probably right lol. At the time I guess I just thought it would be difficult, since I had been told that a bunch of times by others who were experienced. I assumed that those people were correct, and so I waited. I did try looking for other newbies to do it with of course, on discords, in game, even reddit lmao... But I still didn't find any success doing that either. I also had an inferno cape and all that, even had a flashy pet, didn't matter though. Not sure if I just had odd circumstances, but I just could not find a group for the life of me, and there was no chance I was gonna try solo it. Anyway, to wrap it up, I don't think I missed out really (on ToB). My main gripe at the time was that I regretted picking Morytania lol. I was really grindy and loved being at the head of the pack, and not being able to do half the content in one of the zones I picked just made me fall behind and lose motivation, that's all.
@@eugenesis8188 bullshit you did infernal without guide in 3 tries when it took the best players in the game trying for like a week straight with max gear idiot
The biggest issue with tob is the people trying to teach it. It was the most simple raid in the game and people will over complicate it and make it feel daunting to even consider trying
I disagree with this being the biggest issue. The fact is, a lot of people are scared of trying pvm, so they will naturally be more inclined to try something that is infinitely less punishing (Cox or ToA as mentioned in the video). With less people being willing engage in the content, of course it will be harder to find teams.
@@ronbonno9353 the thing is, the standard has been set at an unrealistic level for beginners in bigger clans like WDR. It is far more simple than made out to be and it had ruined the expectations for learners and teachers alike
@@KingCondor sorry to say but as someone that hat to learn from 0 KC with void and a whip using only wdr with no teachers and only a bunch of other 0 kcers you are wrong. It is definitely the fact that people are too scared to go into a raid with the expectation to 100% wipe for a while.
@@KingCondor i agree that its not as difficult as its made out to be, but there are still a half dozen things making it somewhat complicated to Teach. Pretty much every room has at least one mechanic that can pretty much onehit a player Pretty much every room has at least one mechanic that if done wrong can severely rag/wipe the team A lot of strategies/mechanics rely on tick perfect execution Verzik P2, straight up alltogether awful for beginners. Its very easy to die, and if not done correctly you can easily pk your teammates aswell. Whereas cox: sit at melee hand, or run 2 tiles and ask for more brews when you run out. And toa: do everything at half speed with minimal max hits and near Infinite supplies
I'm in a pvm clan and this is my ToB experience. When topic of tob comes up I always mention that I would like to learn ToB. Been doing this for months. Clannies: tob +1/2 Me: can I come? I want to learn. Clannies: no I don't want to do learners. Me: ok no worries. One week later.. Clannies: no one wants to tob, why can't I find people to tob with?
Hail cabbage will no doubt be willing to teach you. I'm on extended break but that's the clan I'm in. They always would try to get me to go BUT I don't like voice chatting while playing.
People are constantly offering to take me to ToB, but then don't actually want to follow through with it. When I finally got my first KC without dying I was just told that I probably didn't learn anything and was carried by scythes. It's true that I was carried, but as someone who teaches a lot of ToA and CoX I was surprised by how insanely dickish ToB makes people. Some of the people who took me are never toxic other places, but bring em to ToB and you'll get toxic.
It's real ironic that in an MMO, the social factor is the biggest barrier to entry in a raid. It's not that you need insanely expensive gear to do ToB, it's that you typically need very expensive gear just to join a ToB party or PVM clan. That's completely disregarding the fact many clans or parties require you to have a certain amount of KC to join their party, which obviously if you even think about this for more than a second, you'll see it poses a clear issue. I love that this was mostly addressed in TOA, in the fact it's very doable solo at whatever specific difficulty you want to have it at. It doesn't feel like you're punished for not having friends or the kind of GP that would allow you to play with other people. I'm all for coop content in osrs, however I hope going forward new content takes after TOA and not TOB.
The barrier to entry for this content is so high that sometimes it’s not worth the hassle. If you don’t have friends or a decent clan good luck joining without DWH and Dragon claws. At least Cox and TOA you can find a team or play it solo
Tob gear is relatively cheap for an end game piece of content. Void with all 3 helms which is free, all 3 cape switches which are free, dragon defender which is free, crystal halberd which is nearly free, berserker ring, dragon boots, amulet of fury, tentacle whip, blowpipe, the upgraded trident, the only item that costs more than about 3-5m is a dragon warhammer.
The problem is that the people who *know* how to do it just seem to be so unwilling to help you if you don't have more than 100kc or even sumthing like a good weapon. When they see that you're not tick perfect at everything so they decides to leave you out just cus you can't tick eat a sozta ball.
Really well worded, glad to find this page early on. I enjoy playing all games solo so i find it a struggle to communicate and that scares me from seeking out randoms.
as someone with 0 friends on OSRS I had to do raids 1 solo as well. Took me about 75 KC and countless forfeits to complete my first deathless raid. The ability to keep going back to Olm after dying was pretty crucial to my first succes though
we grinded tob as new players just to learn it. i think our iron homie spent around 30m at the death chest before we could consistently get completions. Not to mention all the time we spent in 416 with low kcs trying to get completions. I have to say, it was really rough and 416 was a nightmare. It was rough but it is doable and that first kc we got felt amazing
fax no one wants to put in the wipes, me and my bud went in WDR with 0 experience and got flamed and wiped countless times before getting a completion, felt so good when we finally did i was hooked instantly
great video idea dude, i myself have stood outside of tob, and spent spent hours scouring discords just to find a salty hesitant team of sweats to carry me its quite frustrating
On your list you mentioned how cox can be brute forced (at cost of rewards) but tbh TOA is like that now too. You only need to do it deathless at higher invocations (less supplies), and the amount of extra supplies you get from the spirit makes it a lot more chill
Yea I think this is a player problem. I completly agree with what you say, but I have 2 friends, with both I started doing ToA and they will say they do a starter raid, but then already put it up to lvl 50 (or even 150 one time), and that is not a difficult level, but when you are doing an entry snd just need to get the mechanics down, it doesn't help that everyone. Is sweaty for this 0.x % drop chance for the staff, like, I could see how they would frustrate each of our clanmembers who wanted to give this raid a try, and I had to start taking them on the lvl 0 raid each, so they can feel some sense of accomplishment in order to feel competent to join another raid. And they did start doing it occasionally once they felt like they get the mechanics from 1 run, but the first negative impression still lingers so that they prefer to go to cox instead of going to toa. It's like the raiders can't help their sweaty attitudes to come the starters way even when I can clearly remember how my bud and I were just demolished by the puzzleroom on the day of release! Took him a week to get cocky and be an ass to starters.
Oh and btw, a quick tip with your microphone being blue yeti: it is a side-address microphone, A side-address microphone accepts sound from an angle perpendicular to the mic-as opposed to a front-address mic, which accepts sound from the “end” of the microphone. So my tip is that for your next video try to speak to the side of your blue yeti rather than at the end of it. Will make your voice a lot cleaner and not fade out :)
@@YourCasualPoster I just found this out! Think I got the audio all fixed for pt 2 coming out hopefully within the hour. I do appreciate the tip, audio has been my curse lately lol.
@@doozay9466 I just wanted to point it out as i have the same microphone and i did not notice that with it at first either. Glad i could help! Keep up the great work!
This type is content is good. It’s original and it’s what people want to hear. It’s probably a lot more difficult to script as well because you’re not just reading from the wiki or showing RNG drops on repeat.
I have maxed main and maxed uim, have done cox, toa and inferno but when it comes to tob i never did it because the game forces you to find team... If only it would scale to solo.
not gonna lie same, while nobody in game has said anything i am personally disappointed i have a total of 35kc across all raids while also being able to consistently do inferno pet hunts on an account that’ll be max in 2 months
If wipes imply worked like toa and had just a much larger impact on drop rate counting each death as double or something, but to be able to run it back again to learn with still a moderate chance (say like 1/30 for a 3 man with a couple wipes and random deaths) for a purple would put it more inline with the other raids
The only CA task that’s holding me back from finishing the Elite tier is the 25 TOB.. Took me a whole day to find a team to take me, we completed the raid after two attempts. But then obviously they didn’t want to raid anymore.. So if anyone wants to take a learner to TOB, sign me up, I need those KCs.
Join my clan bro, there's someone who's willing to teach and carry tob. Ign CreamyNutz. Reply with yours so I'll add you and when we are both online I'll pm you and send the invite.
I like this kind of content, and my hope for the future is that videos like yours condense information that is difficult for the average person who, likely, is not sitting down and critically analysing osrs's accessibility. These players will then (hopefully) go forward and give this feedback to Jagex who then can make better content in future, fortified by feedback from players who have a better understanding of their wants/needs thanks to videos like this. I will say though that the muffler you're using (or potentially the microphone itself) is dramatically impacting the quality of your audio. You have a very nice speaking voice, but I'd love a little more clarity if you're looking for quality feedback.
@@doozay9466 I wrote this before realising that you're brand new to the space and only have 3 videos! Obviously you're not gonna have high end recording equipment yet! Still, your content earned my subscription and I hope you continue!
I think the only problem here is finding teams is difficult at low kc if you don't have friends who will take you, people just have to be willing to do learner raids more. I think its fine to have solo tob as a super prestigious goal, the other 2 raids are there if people want something easy.
The real problem imo, is Jagex is supposed to be a multiplayer game. But 90% of it is solo only or solo recommended. So when you get to ToB it's like "ok what now?"
The biggest issue is players not willing to help other players learn & instead creates a vicious scenario where people won’t like other people because they don’t already know something
S2g only janitors do tob. They all have a superiority complex and amusingly abysmal social skills. Toa is more chill and varied, but that means that you'll often find braindead rats who get carried every raid and get a staff in FFA when they had the worst placement.
Toa is literally end game content lmfao. It’s just sad the base skill level for tob vs toa is hugely different. You can do east toa 150s you can’t do easy tob. It’s just people not wanting to help others not be the carried little rats getting staff in ffa. Simple logic.
my thing with tob is im a uim ive got 0 KC on any account. So im completly restricted on what gear i can bring how much inventory i have and on top of that i have to after every wipe 1: go get gp from ferox/poh 2:go get a looting bag (prolly from lms shop so its safe) 3: get 1 invent of items 4: bag everything 5: go get another invent 6: re set up i think its genuinly impossible to find a group that will take this lvl of inconvience all which would be solved by not having the dumb ass death chest.
My guy, do you have a noise cancellation filter or something on your mic on? it sounds like the volume is adjusting a ton, or is that me? is it just me? only around the 30 second mark btw, much better later in the vid
I only pk’d for years. A few months ago I decided it was time to make a main so I could try PVM. The only “real” PVM I’ve done is DK’s and with lower stats and no prior experience I struggled to get more than 2-3 kills on all 3 of them. What monsters are there that I could practice some basic mechanics on without it being too difficult? The only thing I can think of would be maybe demonic gorillas once I do DS2.
Great video! On the side, it looks like you're using a blue yeti microphone, which takes audio input from the front and the back, not the top part you're talking into. Turning it 90° might resolve the really off and on input your microphone has if it is a yeti. It's really hard to listen to in parts of the video so maybe play around with it!
I don't know if I agree with what you've said about the supply chest tbh. If you're dying and getting less from the chest, you also have more supplies left in the inv that you brought in because you didn't stay alive long enough to use them xd. I've never had a learner run out of supps in a raid other than at verzik after chugging a ton of brews
the problem is the players their the most gatekeeping community in existence to such a degree somee high players put you on their ignore list for not having an infernal cape.
True it's the toxic elitist pvmers that make tob hard . It's like oh you don't have Max gear and syth and infernal cape you suck and are worthless to teach. It's really what made me never attempt tob.
@@joshchurch785 not always true, tob teachers usually recommend not using a scythe at all for your learning raids because a learner doesn't know how to attack xarpus and verzik p2 on a 5.3tick cycle. It also makes tanking p3 more difficult and puts you on a strange attack pattern during nylo boss if you arent preswitching your gear. Its much easier teaching someone in void and a whip tbh
Myself and three other friends spent around 1 month attempting to get our first kc (we all had 40+ hr work weeks and one guy lived in NZ, so we only could make 1-2 attempts per night). It was a long and frustrating grind, but there are few things that compare to that level of accomplishment you feel once you get it down. Ran around 300+ of them while casually playing and then started and ironman and didn't touch it until leagues. Did another 200+ on leagues and haven't done nearly any since. I did some attempts with my GIM but we are so gear and mechanically lacking we can't complete. TL;DR here is that it can be done with a group of friends and is definitely worth it to do it that way. Now having those friends is another issue.
If someone wants to really learn tob they just need to be commited imo; as an ironman I got my 500+ kc from w416 ffa's and spent over 50m in gold throughout my raids in wipes alone. TOB main barrier to entry is skill based and imo thats okay. All content can be completed its rewarding being able to do content other people cant. I would like to say cox and tob both can't get new raiders as TOA just set the bar really low virtually allowing anyone to complete it.
I want to do all the endgame content but it's like the end game stuff needs teams and stuff and I absolutely hate finding a team. It's like fully time consuming and then you can't do more than like 10 kill count until someone has to get off and then it's the process all over again.
Definitely feel this. My preference is to do content solo. My current coal is to complete each raid, but with ToB i'm concerned it'll be so hard I won't have fun doing it.
I don't really think the death cost is an issue, as you likely have quite an established account by the time you are going to be doing ToB but I certainly agree on the inaccessibility of the raids. Learning ToB is a pain, the entry mode doesn't really compare but is somewhat helpful to at least dip your toes in, but isn't going to prepare you for the real thing. Finding a team when starting out or even with a few kc under your belt can be tricky and do often see people being quite picky with the gear people bring as well. The fire cape vs inferno cape being the classic example. The throwing your head against a wall style of learning I think would be very helpful, its one thing watching a guide about some boss, but you need that experience being in the fight itself and I think both CoX and ToA do that aspect a lot better as mentioned with the infinite lives. The solo vs team aspect also plays into this, a lot more people are happy to throw themselves into the solo bosses because their failure is theirs alone, the fire cape is one that a ton of plays take multiple long attempts to get the first time around, Zulrah to begin with is a pain as can vorkath be when not used to pvm, but plays are a lot happier to do these than the raids. I actually noticed a similar comparison with Barbarian Assault of all things back when going for the diary cape, where you had people who were obviously new to it struggling to get a team on one side and then the higher end who would leave at the slightest mistake. Unfortunately I'm not sure what the middleground can really be with the way the game is. Experienced players don't want to waste their time and have things drag on/carry people, but without that experience in the first place people will never get to that level. There are some things like external discord servers but can often have mixed reputations or generally offputting for people to go and join these things outside the game, thus I do feel a more streamlined internal path would be more beneficial in the longterm.
Learning Tob was the most unwelcoming and horrible time for me. It takes an eternity to get your first kc with 0kcers and then you can't get on to better teams until high kc
Its a social issue. For being an mmo, there is almost no interaction below the surface level between people who arent already in a discord call. I dont know how to find a group and even if I had one I dont want to weight them down, pay to grab my gear when we lose, and have them abandon me at a loss.
I don't think it's possible to have lots of chats in-game while raiding, if you've got time to type lots of things mid fight then they'd have made it too easy. A lot of clans do learner raids or if you're in the We Do Raids discord there are often learner raids there. Those ones are fine because the expectation going into it is to need to complete some rooms with 3 people after the learner dies, or they everyone goes in as a learner, wipe at nylos but you all learned something from it. I feel like there's a place for learner raids with no pressure and there's a place for people doing speedruns and bashing out 10 completions in a row, it's just a problem when people end up in the wrong group.
I wonder if jagex ever thought of making a (Play with bots) option for multiplayer things in the game. I wonder how hard it would be to program something like that. 3 bot partners and you manage their invi after every section or something. Or would it be to grief dying on a HC cause of a bot lol.
That’s the thing though. Almost no one is. Even the official We Do Raids discord server never has ToB mentor/learner raids anymore. More power to you if you can find someone willing to teach you. Realistically, you’ll have to teach yourself. That’s the barrier discussed in the vid.
My clan and I learnt without any teachers. Over a week of just wipes, we would finally make it all the way to sote or xarpus and then be stuck at maiden for a day. It was all practice. I’m over 200 kc now and a lot of my clan mates have now done over 100 hard modes. It is easy enough to learn IF YOU FIND A TEAM THAT IS KEEN TO LEARN AND DONT CARE TO LOSE A FEW MIL
My clan is ‘just exist’ if you’d like to come guest and find a keen raider to accompany you. We’re pretty much all Australian so if you are too, that’s a plus. My ingane name is ‘Lm rdps’ and I live in world 533 tob bank
I've killed all but 4 bosses/raids in the game with combat achievements up to hard done 5k+ total boss kc and I still don't know when I'll even attempt to try it because I don't want to deal with the sweat of osrs just like I don't play fps games really anymore or when I try to hop on for one match all the fun for me is lost from it. If I ever do try it'll be with my clan or a few friends if they get to that point in the game but who knows. 🤷
Going to throw out an unpopular opinion here - I started learning TOB from 0 kc two weeks ago using WDR. Between learner groups and mentor raids I had no issue getting to 118kc since. What has been absolutely atrocious and extremely deterring is HMT. The player base on discords who are brand new is slim, and the majority of high KC raiders either rudely refuse or tell you to get your KC up. Compared to regular TOB, I’ve spent hours sitting at Ver Sinhaza waiting to form a group of four learners.
That's because HMT is annoying to do. Nobody wants to do hmt, they only do it for the rewards. As such nobody wants to waste their time on people that don't know how to do the content at max efficiency (especially with all the chances to kill your teammates in every room). Sadly that's just HMT being tedious content.
The runescape community over the years have taught me to not play the game with others due to a large population being toxic or unwilling to help. I probably won't ever do the raids if I can't solo it. When it comes to tick eating, it's just something I haven't figured out and honestly don't bother. I'm too casual at the game and don't have the time in the day to really learn it past the 2hrs I have after work.
Good comparison when mentioning elden rings difficulty. Though I'd add that group activities like ToB are much harder than elden ring. Let me explain. In Elden ring the difficulty of each boss can be decreased with proper planning. Stuck on Godskin duo? Use the sleep status effect to make the fight trivial. Fighting any flesh-based enemy? You can delete them in seconds with a proper bleed build. Fire giant is op? Apply scarlet rot and watch him die slowly. What about the fallingstar beast? Don't use bladed weapons. Make the fight trivial by using crush weapons that use gravity magic. The Elden ring fights are often only as hard as you make them because there is a weakness that can be exploited. In ToB, having max stats is the MINNIMUM requirement, and it's still likely to get curb-stomped unless you memorize in-game ticks perfectly. In osrs there is no secret status effect you can use to make the boss easier. I think this is by design, because making the raid extremely difficult keeps the prices of high tier gear overpriced and out of reach for most players. Thus incentivizing the grind. In short, I can be lower-leveled in Elden Ring but still completely destroy any boss with the proper build and status effects, but I cannot do the same with ToB since it relies on being maxed with max gear, memorizing ticks, and exceptional communication with complete strangers. All of which are impossible for lower levelled players who have not obtained the gear yet.
Max gear is a huge exaggeration, come on now. Nobody is expecting learners to be running max gear, nor should they be running max gear because it's just going to create more complications with equipment management while trying to deal with room mechanics. The minimum gear requirement is like Elite Void, Zenytes, Tox Trident, Blowpipe, Bgs or Dwh, Occult and Crystal Halberd. That is not a huge ask at all, and anyone who's account is at the point where they're ready for end game level PvM should have all of the above easily. Affording the buyables is like a week of money dragon or money snake, tops. As for needing close to max stats, well, it's endgame level content. Don't you think it'd be a bit weird if you didn't need to have progressed your account to where it's nearing its maximum potential for content which is designed as the absolute peak of difficulty?
ToB is attractive to me solely because I want to be able to do every raid. I only started in August of last year, and I'm already doing solo CoX and solo ToA Expert raids, so I feel like I'm getting close to this goal. But I've also heard of how hard ToB is, and I'm pretty afraid of trying to learn as a total leech without a full stack of people I already know
It would be cool if you could take on a designated “learner role” with no purples and no difficulty increase so your team can finish if you die(some things would have to be put in place to prevent abuse)
Please put a normalization filter on your audio. Your noise gate is set so close to the low end volume of your voice that your audio just fades in and out and is distracting.
I learned tob doing 416 with a bunch of random players sub 10kc. Takes a while but with some practice and patience you can definetly learn it. No need to wait for a group of friends to carry you. Does less for yourself anyways if you are expecting to be carried each kc. IMO
That is the best way to learn , I’ve learned on wdr and 416 with other learners . By the time I had 10 kc I knew all of the mechanics and tricks (asides from pog tanking) . Could confidently do deathless trios at 10kc . I’ve got clan mates with a couple hundred kc and still die constantly to basic tob mechanics because they did nothing but get carried from 1 kc
Hate to break it to you but you kinda wasted/got finessed your 10M. Entry/Story ToB is easily cleared by just using range at everything except on Bloat/Nylo rooms.
@@taffeloo I have like 4b, I didn’t care. And the quest completion was on a low level ironman that doesn’t have the best ranged/mage weapons so was worth it to me
That's kind of the point of entry mode ToB. It doesn't fully fulfill the purpose but it can at least help people get down the basics for most of the rooms if you don't just try and brute force it.
If entry mode is too easy (if you have a scythe you hit the bosses like 3 times and they die) you can make it harder like see if you can get through an entry mode without taking bandages, see if you can get through one with a dragon scimitar just to practice
nah, there's entry mode for a reason. figure it out there and you shouldn't be too much of a burden. if this came out before entry mode i might think you were right.
Theres entry mode now. So if people arent willing to go into entry mode and learn p2, then it is a motivation and ambition problem. Theres also a verzik p2 trainer. I was able to teach my little brother tob who just started playing 6 months ago. With the things that can be used to learn now compared to before, it is much more approachable. Wdr exists and was how I learned. People arent willing to fail in order to learn is the biggest problem imo. Raids are meant to be done in teams. They royally screwed up toa imo. Its much easier solo than in teams. So for all the noobs out there, use the tools available to you, then use a pvm clan or wdr discord and send it. It is by far the best raid out of all 3 of them.
Chests exists to help the economy. Also the steep learning curve is what keeps the prices high. Its an MMO and people just have to make friends to learn the content together.
There’s nothing wrong with tob mechanics it’s that people don’t want to teach tob or people don’t want to do content that isn’t solo. If you join a nice clan and make some friends you’ll eventually find people to teach you. If you learn how to P2 walk the rest of the raid is a breeze and all you need is a whip and a blowpipe
They gave us Clan support for a reason my guys find your PvM clan and get their discord, ask for help on ToB there are weekly ToB learners in all big clans.
Anyone that wants to lean raiding joining a PvM clan is very crucial as I am in one and we host learner raids multiple times each day. I'm positive if you search the OSRS forums or 2007scape Reddit you would find a PvM clan that is similar
Hey, do you think you can the PvM clan allows guests? I would love to get my foot into pvming but I’m already in a clan. If so can you tell me the clan’s name so I can join as a guest.
Being 100% honest here i think the removal of cheat clients is the big reason, most of people just used gamebreaking plugins there and when they made runelite the only client people just stopped enjoying tob
Great video! Honestly having the fun content locked behind having to put time into the game and reach high levels is what made me having zero interest in even opening the wiki page for tob. Couple that with the almost "boys club" feeling of having to find a party of new player hating people who just want you to run the game all day. It feels closed off and because they decided to add new content and better gear here; Disrupted the power balance of player created item tiers that the actual 2007 scape had. The power creep and requirement to find other people willing to reach endgame and play together with synergy and strategy leaves the remaining playerbase that isn't an Ironman or a bot farm very small. The incessant use of third party plug-ins that cause tiles or monsters to glow might be helpful but it shouldn't be necessary to learn... especially if the Jajex client pales in comparison. Finally, the constant addition of 'new raids!' Makes a backlog for me mentally that I dont have the energy to bother checking where it is, how much effort to gear for it is and also if I have to group up still. Why bother when you can just buy the items from a GE?
>Couple that with the almost "boys club" feeling of having to find a party of new player hating people who just want you to run the game all day There are literal raid groups aimed at new players to help them get into it lol, the sweats who don't like inexperienced people keep to themselves >It feels closed off and because they decided to add new content and better gear here; Disrupted the power balance of player created item tiers that the actual 2007 scape had The gear that comes from tob isn't even that widely useful outside of doing raids lol besides like avernic and rapier, the rest mostly just has niche use like making low effort pvm like godwars and zulrah more optimized >The power creep and requirement to find other people willing to reach endgame and play together with synergy and strategy leaves the remaining playerbase that isn't an Ironman or a bot farm very small. You do realize you had to group up with people to pvm even back in the original 2007 right? like nobody was out here red x-ing/6:0-ing/minion flicking gwd lol, you had to meet up with people and group pvm or join masses, same with like kq, nobody was soloing it back in the day >The incessant use of third party plug-ins that cause tiles or monsters to glow might be helpful but it shouldn't be necessary to learn... especially if the Jajex client pales in comparison. Dude people learned tob without the use of plugins, wtf are you even going on about? the tob related plugins didn't come out for a long time until after people had already gotten good at it without them >Finally, the constant addition of 'new raids Bro there's 3 raids in the game and there was literally a 4 year gap between tob and toa's release, not to mention that cox and toa are both really easy for casuals to complete > Why bother when you can just buy the items from a GE? I don't know why anyone would be buying endgame pvm gear if they aren't interacting with endgame pvm lol
@@watercrystals9744 OK, glad you enjoy the current state of the game. Any recent additions to the game and all of the above mentioned points are how I feel about it. Bots still ruined the economy; Or kept it afloat, depending on how you view the change in social interaction and true "free trade". Previous group fighting bosses were overall more enjoyable imo. This is highlighted by how KBD in classic worked. That playstyle and formula was more fun for me and my friends. None of us play anymore because of the things I've listed about group content and how that direction the game went in to try and retain the playerbase and add content.
That's a weird interpretation of what I wrote lol You listed a bunch of statements about the game and I pointed out the things that aren't even accurate I actually have a lot of problems with osrs, including with tob which I think is a really good piece of content but is badly designed because it's so inaccessible to the majority of the players due to the learning curve and is clearly disincentivizing people from even wanting to try it out, leading jagex to create a disaster of an "easy mode" with entry level tob, which does nothing to alleviate the learning curve because you can ignore 99% of the mechanics by face tanking all the damage with early game character stats in the 70-80 range and then shoehorn it into a quest as a crappy attempt at forcing people to engage with it instead of making it actually desirable to play e.g. the only reward for attempting to learn tob through entry mode is literally just needing to be carried in normal tob because you can't get uniques in entry mode (which I don't think entry mode should reward the normal tob uniques) so you end up basically just wasting your time and would've been better off just joining as a learner on normal tob instead your problems with group content in osrs just make no sense you have to group up with people for all the bosses that existed back in rs2 like godwars unless you either know and can do the meta strats which the vast majority of people can't, or you want to get like 1-2 kills a trip and bank the sweaty players are like a tiny fraction of the actual people playing the game right now, the average runescape player based on jagex's own stats from a few years back has like base 60s in their combat stats lol, they literally have no choice but to group up with random people to kill even easy bosses like kbd if they want to have fun doing that I don't know if you just spend too much time reading reddit or watching yt creators with maxed accounts, but they really aren't remotely representative of the vast majority people playing this game
Take elite void, lots of brews, safe up and focus on the core mechanics of bosses. Your team will wipe, but you will learn things each time :) xzact’s guides for rooms are very good
This is litterally why i have 500 kc in all raids and 0 in tob. Dont get me wrong im not a tob virgin. But when i tried to learn i just fuckd my team over again and again. Also lost millions and i litterally mean millions. I have trouble learning raids. It takes me a long time to figure what to do and when and why. So after nearly 300 days spent playing in game with an account thats over 10 years old i still havent completed a single tob. Cox is a bit more forgiving. But cox doesnt drop items. 500 kc cox for 4 twisted bucklers, 3 arcances and a ancestral pants. Those 500. Cox took me nearly 1 year to complete. This is why i have next to no desire to play anymore. Cox is easy but the drops only go to the high scoring teammates. Toa is easy and gives good money IF your lucky on purples. About 70 experts dry rn in toa. You should also mention how time consuming the raids are. And just how fuckd up it is to mess up and wipe right before the chest room. How enthusiasm is high af for the first two or three week. After that its litterally a job. Also dont mess up and buy armor for your gear upgrades. Weapons are the way to go. But when your splitting every drop. It can take months of pvm to get to a zaryte crossbow. Now i know what it takes to get a tbow and shadow of tumeken staff. And ive willingly played for hours everday. But the game doesnt throw me bones anymore. Been a month since my last purple. Loggin nowadays to do a raid and uf i dont purple i logg out in digust anymore. Sucks but endgame requires too much and effort for 1/50 droprate.
These issues might exist but are not why people don’t do it. They don’t do it because the drops are terrible despite it being the hardest raid. It’s the best content jagex has ever released but without good drops it will always be dead.
Tob / bba / should have a solo mode as well. Adjust the difficulty of these group games so new joiners can learn the ropes solo. However, the bigger the team, the faster the boss does but the loot remains same, this gives incentives for people to form groups but people who are unable to commit to groups are still able to do the raids abeit with a much longer time. The way I see it, if such raids are not balanced, osrs will end up like other MMORPG, capitalism which eventually leads to decline due to lesser and lesser players joining while more quitting
I'll be honest it's the social aspect that gives tob a barrier. Some players wants to do it themselves; some thinks it's hard; and new players don't want to be flamed by the randoms they joined.
Yoo this. I've never done it before and I wouldn't want to be carried and flamed by people who know how to do it. Idk how else to learn
me before my few 100 kc. Had to have my cc convinve me i wouldn't be flamed and such.
Sweaty pvm part of RuneScape community can be about as toxic as dark souls fans
Or they just don’t wanna go on a voice call and they duck up because they got no clue what to do
Your use of semi colons is comical lol
During the Trailblazer League I decided to pick Morytania as my last area so that I could learn ToB in an easier game mode before doing it on normal worlds. I grinded hard, finished Godwars within 2 weeks to get max gear, and was in the top 200 skill total in the game when I made it to ToB. I spent the next week trying to find a group that would be willing to teach a newbie how to do ToB. Even though I was insanely strong, and it was a for-fun game mode, no one wanted to invite me because I had never done it before. Quit Trailblazers after that, even though it was probably the most fun I had ever had playing OSRS. It felt really bad to be stuck because no one wanted to teach me.
Sometimes you have to be willing to teach yourself. In the last league with the right setup tob was a lot more easily soloable. I would have recommended just running solo entry modes until it felt so easy you had to start trying normals.
I thought it would be good to learn that way too, but it didn't work out that way. I was way too op. I mean, I was literally afking the entire fight caves every time I logged out to get 200 mil range xp.
I got a couple tob kc, and an inferno cape, but I literally ignored most of the mechanics and could just face tank shit that is supposed to kill you. I didn't even have to look up a guide for the inferno and I got it my third attempt.
I just got a group of randoms who also wanted to learn tob and we tore through it. One guy had like 10 kc and got the scythe and was melee only soloing it on like his second day ever doing it.
I just read this and it sounds like I'm bragging. I'm not. I can't do either in the main game. I'm just trying to say that you didn't miss the opportunity you think you did.
@@eugenesis8188 You're probably right lol. At the time I guess I just thought it would be difficult, since I had been told that a bunch of times by others who were experienced. I assumed that those people were correct, and so I waited. I did try looking for other newbies to do it with of course, on discords, in game, even reddit lmao... But I still didn't find any success doing that either.
I also had an inferno cape and all that, even had a flashy pet, didn't matter though. Not sure if I just had odd circumstances, but I just could not find a group for the life of me, and there was no chance I was gonna try solo it.
Anyway, to wrap it up, I don't think I missed out really (on ToB). My main gripe at the time was that I regretted picking Morytania lol. I was really grindy and loved being at the head of the pack, and not being able to do half the content in one of the zones I picked just made me fall behind and lose motivation, that's all.
@@eugenesis8188 bullshit you did infernal without guide in 3 tries when it took the best players in the game trying for like a week straight with max gear idiot
Rip bozo
The biggest issue with tob is the people trying to teach it. It was the most simple raid in the game and people will over complicate it and make it feel daunting to even consider trying
I disagree with this being the biggest issue.
The fact is, a lot of people are scared of trying pvm, so they will naturally be more inclined to try something that is infinitely less punishing (Cox or ToA as mentioned in the video).
With less people being willing engage in the content, of course it will be harder to find teams.
@@ronbonno9353 the thing is, the standard has been set at an unrealistic level for beginners in bigger clans like WDR. It is far more simple than made out to be and it had ruined the expectations for learners and teachers alike
@@KingCondor sorry to say but as someone that hat to learn from 0 KC with void and a whip using only wdr with no teachers and only a bunch of other 0 kcers you are wrong. It is definitely the fact that people are too scared to go into a raid with the expectation to 100% wipe for a while.
@@frosto1002 what hat are you talking about?
@@KingCondor i agree that its not as difficult as its made out to be, but there are still a half dozen things making it somewhat complicated to Teach.
Pretty much every room has at least one mechanic that can pretty much onehit a player
Pretty much every room has at least one mechanic that if done wrong can severely rag/wipe the team
A lot of strategies/mechanics rely on tick perfect execution
Verzik P2, straight up alltogether awful for beginners. Its very easy to die, and if not done correctly you can easily pk your teammates aswell.
Whereas cox: sit at melee hand, or run 2 tiles and ask for more brews when you run out.
And toa: do everything at half speed with minimal max hits and near Infinite supplies
I'm in a pvm clan and this is my ToB experience.
When topic of tob comes up I always mention that I would like to learn ToB. Been doing this for months.
Clannies: tob +1/2
Me: can I come? I want to learn.
Clannies: no I don't want to do learners.
Me: ok no worries.
One week later..
Clannies: no one wants to tob, why can't I find people to tob with?
Hail cabbage will no doubt be willing to teach you. I'm on extended break but that's the clan I'm in. They always would try to get me to go BUT I don't like voice chatting while playing.
People are constantly offering to take me to ToB, but then don't actually want to follow through with it. When I finally got my first KC without dying I was just told that I probably didn't learn anything and was carried by scythes. It's true that I was carried, but as someone who teaches a lot of ToA and CoX I was surprised by how insanely dickish ToB makes people. Some of the people who took me are never toxic other places, but bring em to ToB and you'll get toxic.
It's real ironic that in an MMO, the social factor is the biggest barrier to entry in a raid. It's not that you need insanely expensive gear to do ToB, it's that you typically need very expensive gear just to join a ToB party or PVM clan. That's completely disregarding the fact many clans or parties require you to have a certain amount of KC to join their party, which obviously if you even think about this for more than a second, you'll see it poses a clear issue.
I love that this was mostly addressed in TOA, in the fact it's very doable solo at whatever specific difficulty you want to have it at. It doesn't feel like you're punished for not having friends or the kind of GP that would allow you to play with other people. I'm all for coop content in osrs, however I hope going forward new content takes after TOA and not TOB.
The barrier to entry for this content is so high that sometimes it’s not worth the hassle. If you don’t have friends or a decent clan good luck joining without DWH and Dragon claws. At least Cox and TOA you can find a team or play it solo
Tbf when I started ToB i had a blowpipe, trident, void and a tent whip. I'm not sure that is classed as super high expensive gear 😅
Tob gear is relatively cheap for an end game piece of content. Void with all 3 helms which is free, all 3 cape switches which are free, dragon defender which is free, crystal halberd which is nearly free, berserker ring, dragon boots, amulet of fury, tentacle whip, blowpipe, the upgraded trident, the only item that costs more than about 3-5m is a dragon warhammer.
@@DuncanHarbison I suppose I did waste at least 15m in deaths coffer funds too. Others might be better than me though 😁
@steven robinson oh yeah the supplies + deaths cost while learning is more than any of the gear minus the dwh 😂
The problem is that the people who *know* how to do it just seem to be so unwilling to help you if you don't have more than 100kc or even sumthing like a good weapon. When they see that you're not tick perfect at everything so they decides to leave you out just cus you can't tick eat a sozta ball.
I’d love to see tob adopt the Zulrah death cost model: Item reclaims are free before you reach x kc
Really well worded, glad to find this page early on.
I enjoy playing all games solo so i find it a struggle to communicate and that scares me from seeking out randoms.
as someone with 0 friends on OSRS I had to do raids 1 solo as well. Took me about 75 KC and countless forfeits to complete my first deathless raid.
The ability to keep going back to Olm after dying was pretty crucial to my first succes though
Well if you ever want to change the 0 friend thing add me IxilsI and send a message :)
@@boomksaa3973 nawww gayyyy ;) you should join a clan though buddy you'd be surprised by how nice people are.
we grinded tob as new players just to learn it. i think our iron homie spent around 30m at the death chest before we could consistently get completions. Not to mention all the time we spent in 416 with low kcs trying to get completions. I have to say, it was really rough and 416 was a nightmare. It was rough but it is doable and that first kc we got felt amazing
fax no one wants to put in the wipes, me and my bud went in WDR with 0 experience and got flamed and wiped countless times before getting a completion, felt so good when we finally did i was hooked instantly
I have to say really enjoyed the two vids. Hope to see more soon.
great video idea dude, i myself have stood outside of tob, and spent spent hours scouring discords just to find a salty hesitant team of sweats to carry me its quite frustrating
@@joshdiamond110 Are you able to learn something without being carried the first time=)?
On your list you mentioned how cox can be brute forced (at cost of rewards) but tbh TOA is like that now too.
You only need to do it deathless at higher invocations (less supplies), and the amount of extra supplies you get from the spirit makes it a lot more chill
Yea I think this is a player problem. I completly agree with what you say, but I have 2 friends, with both I started doing ToA and they will say they do a starter raid, but then already put it up to lvl 50 (or even 150 one time), and that is not a difficult level, but when you are doing an entry snd just need to get the mechanics down, it doesn't help that everyone. Is sweaty for this 0.x % drop chance for the staff, like, I could see how they would frustrate each of our clanmembers who wanted to give this raid a try, and I had to start taking them on the lvl 0 raid each, so they can feel some sense of accomplishment in order to feel competent to join another raid. And they did start doing it occasionally once they felt like they get the mechanics from 1 run, but the first negative impression still lingers so that they prefer to go to cox instead of going to toa. It's like the raiders can't help their sweaty attitudes to come the starters way even when I can clearly remember how my bud and I were just demolished by the puzzleroom on the day of release! Took him a week to get cocky and be an ass to starters.
You deserve more subs man, you pop up in my recommended a lot.
Congrats on your second video popping off already! Keep it up brother
Oh and btw, a quick tip with your microphone being blue yeti: it is a side-address microphone, A side-address microphone accepts sound from an angle perpendicular to the mic-as opposed to a front-address mic, which accepts sound from the “end” of the microphone.
So my tip is that for your next video try to speak to the side of your blue yeti rather than at the end of it. Will make your voice a lot cleaner and not fade out :)
thank you so much :)
@@YourCasualPoster I just found this out! Think I got the audio all fixed for pt 2 coming out hopefully within the hour. I do appreciate the tip, audio has been my curse lately lol.
@@doozay9466 I just wanted to point it out as i have the same microphone and i did not notice that with it at first either. Glad i could help! Keep up the great work!
This type is content is good. It’s original and it’s what people want to hear. It’s probably a lot more difficult to script as well because you’re not just reading from the wiki or showing RNG drops on repeat.
I have maxed main and maxed uim, have done cox, toa and inferno but when it comes to tob i never did it because the game forces you to find team... If only it would scale to solo.
not gonna lie same, while nobody in game has said anything i am personally disappointed i have a total of 35kc across all raids while also being able to consistently do inferno pet hunts on an account that’ll be max in 2 months
Why don’t they make queues for entry level raids? It would be be good for new players
This mans letter S hurts my ears
If wipes imply worked like toa and had just a much larger impact on drop rate counting each death as double or something, but to be able to run it back again to learn with still a moderate chance (say like 1/30 for a 3 man with a couple wipes and random deaths) for a purple would put it more inline with the other raids
The only CA task that’s holding me back from finishing the Elite tier is the 25 TOB.. Took me a whole day to find a team to take me, we completed the raid after two attempts. But then obviously they didn’t want to raid anymore.. So if anyone wants to take a learner to TOB, sign me up, I need those KCs.
Keep at it, once you get to 50KC you will have noticed an improvement in yourself and it will be infinitely easier to find a team. Good Luck!
Join my clan bro, there's someone who's willing to teach and carry tob. Ign CreamyNutz. Reply with yours so I'll add you and when we are both online I'll pm you and send the invite.
I like this kind of content, and my hope for the future is that videos like yours condense information that is difficult for the average person who, likely, is not sitting down and critically analysing osrs's accessibility. These players will then (hopefully) go forward and give this feedback to Jagex who then can make better content in future, fortified by feedback from players who have a better understanding of their wants/needs thanks to videos like this.
I will say though that the muffler you're using (or potentially the microphone itself) is dramatically impacting the quality of your audio. You have a very nice speaking voice, but I'd love a little more clarity if you're looking for quality feedback.
This is incredibly kind, thank you. I think we are getting the audio figured out! Wish this videos audio was better but future vids should be good.
@@doozay9466 I wrote this before realising that you're brand new to the space and only have 3 videos! Obviously you're not gonna have high end recording equipment yet! Still, your content earned my subscription and I hope you continue!
Great video! You brought up great points
Yeah i have a maxed account and i dont even wanna do TOB because of the reasons you listed
missing out on the best content in game because your nervous or scared doesnt make sense, go make friends :)
I think the only problem here is finding teams is difficult at low kc if you don't have friends who will take you, people just have to be willing to do learner raids more. I think its fine to have solo tob as a super prestigious goal, the other 2 raids are there if people want something easy.
Good overview, I definitely hate ToB as someone new to raids. Side note: I'd recommend getting a de-esser! It'll help your audio quality a lot :)
The real problem imo, is Jagex is supposed to be a multiplayer game. But 90% of it is solo only or solo recommended. So when you get to ToB it's like "ok what now?"
This is the realest thing I’ve heard in a long time
Great video man
What plug in is that for gear?
stop staring into my soul
thx
you make very good video , I enjoy this info
Ngl that thumb nail was impossible to not click on lol
The biggest issue is players not willing to help other players learn & instead creates a vicious scenario where people won’t like other people because they don’t already know something
S2g only janitors do tob. They all have a superiority complex and amusingly abysmal social skills. Toa is more chill and varied, but that means that you'll often find braindead rats who get carried every raid and get a staff in FFA when they had the worst placement.
@@tubax926 toa is mid game content. you're mid game.
Toa is ass after 200 kc
Toa is literally end game content lmfao. It’s just sad the base skill level for tob vs toa is hugely different. You can do east toa 150s you can’t do easy tob. It’s just people not wanting to help others not be the carried little rats getting staff in ffa. Simple logic.
@@zilyness they literally have a entry mode tob lol
my thing with tob is im a uim ive got 0 KC on any account. So im completly restricted on what gear i can bring how much inventory i have and on top of that i have to after every wipe
1: go get gp from ferox/poh
2:go get a looting bag (prolly from lms shop so its safe)
3: get 1 invent of items
4: bag everything
5: go get another invent
6: re set up
i think its genuinly impossible to find a group that will take this lvl of inconvience all which would be solved by not having the dumb ass death chest.
My guy, do you have a noise cancellation filter or something on your mic on? it sounds like the volume is adjusting a ton, or is that me? is it just me?
only around the 30 second mark btw, much better later in the vid
I only pk’d for years. A few months ago I decided it was time to make a main so I could try PVM. The only “real” PVM I’ve done is DK’s and with lower stats and no prior experience I struggled to get more than 2-3 kills on all 3 of them.
What monsters are there that I could practice some basic mechanics on without it being too difficult? The only thing I can think of would be maybe demonic gorillas once I do DS2.
Vorkath, zulrah, gorillas, normal gauntlet, in that order
Go and get a fire cape, beating Jad will teach you alot about bossing and how to stay chill in fights where a misclick could insta kill you
@@kevindiaz4667 I did jad a while back. I thought he was a lot easier than DK’s.
@@Theviewerdude Okay, I’ll check out a vorkath guide.
gwd, particularly commander ziliyana
Great video! On the side, it looks like you're using a blue yeti microphone, which takes audio input from the front and the back, not the top part you're talking into. Turning it 90° might resolve the really off and on input your microphone has if it is a yeti. It's really hard to listen to in parts of the video so maybe play around with it!
I don't know if I agree with what you've said about the supply chest tbh. If you're dying and getting less from the chest, you also have more supplies left in the inv that you brought in because you didn't stay alive long enough to use them xd. I've never had a learner run out of supps in a raid other than at verzik after chugging a ton of brews
What plugin was that at 1:09
whats the plugin called where it shows your gear and invent
Also would like to know this haha
Inventory setups?
@@ashleymagnus5000 cheers il have a look
@@lifesgoodat the amount of times I’ve been using the wrong switch weapon when I’m bossing haha I feel like this could fix it haha
the problem is the players their the most gatekeeping community in existence to such a degree somee high players put you on their ignore list for not having an infernal cape.
True it's the toxic elitist pvmers that make tob hard . It's like oh you don't have Max gear and syth and infernal cape you suck and are worthless to teach. It's really what made me never attempt tob.
@@joshchurch785 not always true, tob teachers usually recommend not using a scythe at all for your learning raids because a learner doesn't know how to attack xarpus and verzik p2 on a 5.3tick cycle. It also makes tanking p3 more difficult and puts you on a strange attack pattern during nylo boss if you arent preswitching your gear. Its much easier teaching someone in void and a whip tbh
Myself and three other friends spent around 1 month attempting to get our first kc (we all had 40+ hr work weeks and one guy lived in NZ, so we only could make 1-2 attempts per night). It was a long and frustrating grind, but there are few things that compare to that level of accomplishment you feel once you get it down. Ran around 300+ of them while casually playing and then started and ironman and didn't touch it until leagues. Did another 200+ on leagues and haven't done nearly any since. I did some attempts with my GIM but we are so gear and mechanically lacking we can't complete. TL;DR here is that it can be done with a group of friends and is definitely worth it to do it that way. Now having those friends is another issue.
Well if you’ve tried to get a team with zero KC you will know why people dont want to try. In the beginning it used to take an hour to find a team
If someone wants to really learn tob they just need to be commited imo; as an ironman I got my 500+ kc from w416 ffa's and spent over 50m in gold throughout my raids in wipes alone. TOB main barrier to entry is skill based and imo thats okay. All content can be completed its rewarding being able to do content other people cant. I would like to say cox and tob both can't get new raiders as TOA just set the bar really low virtually allowing anyone to complete it.
following this up; jagex released story mode specifically to let the new players learn a majority of mechanics with no risk as far as i know.
I want to do all the endgame content but it's like the end game stuff needs teams and stuff and I absolutely hate finding a team. It's like fully time consuming and then you can't do more than like 10 kill count until someone has to get off and then it's the process all over again.
Definitely feel this. My preference is to do content solo. My current coal is to complete each raid, but with ToB i'm concerned it'll be so hard I won't have fun doing it.
Get good noob go 416 and winstand the flame the 100k planks till you get a completion
Plenty of people chase thr thrill of a win over the aspect of fun during the actual task.
go duo tob only need 1 teammate
Yeah you will need a team for tob. People don't usually have a realistic chance of being capable of solo tob before about 1000kc
I didnt know Peter Parker played oldschool, thats whats up!
I don't really think the death cost is an issue, as you likely have quite an established account by the time you are going to be doing ToB but I certainly agree on the inaccessibility of the raids.
Learning ToB is a pain, the entry mode doesn't really compare but is somewhat helpful to at least dip your toes in, but isn't going to prepare you for the real thing.
Finding a team when starting out or even with a few kc under your belt can be tricky and do often see people being quite picky with the gear people bring as well. The fire cape vs inferno cape being the classic example.
The throwing your head against a wall style of learning I think would be very helpful, its one thing watching a guide about some boss, but you need that experience being in the fight itself and I think both CoX and ToA do that aspect a lot better as mentioned with the infinite lives.
The solo vs team aspect also plays into this, a lot more people are happy to throw themselves into the solo bosses because their failure is theirs alone, the fire cape is one that a ton of plays take multiple long attempts to get the first time around, Zulrah to begin with is a pain as can vorkath be when not used to pvm, but plays are a lot happier to do these than the raids.
I actually noticed a similar comparison with Barbarian Assault of all things back when going for the diary cape, where you had people who were obviously new to it struggling to get a team on one side and then the higher end who would leave at the slightest mistake.
Unfortunately I'm not sure what the middleground can really be with the way the game is. Experienced players don't want to waste their time and have things drag on/carry people, but without that experience in the first place people will never get to that level.
There are some things like external discord servers but can often have mixed reputations or generally offputting for people to go and join these things outside the game, thus I do feel a more streamlined internal path would be more beneficial in the longterm.
Learning Tob was the most unwelcoming and horrible time for me. It takes an eternity to get your first kc with 0kcers and then you can't get on to better teams until high kc
Its a social issue. For being an mmo, there is almost no interaction below the surface level between people who arent already in a discord call. I dont know how to find a group and even if I had one I dont want to weight them down, pay to grab my gear when we lose, and have them abandon me at a loss.
I don't think it's possible to have lots of chats in-game while raiding, if you've got time to type lots of things mid fight then they'd have made it too easy. A lot of clans do learner raids or if you're in the We Do Raids discord there are often learner raids there. Those ones are fine because the expectation going into it is to need to complete some rooms with 3 people after the learner dies, or they everyone goes in as a learner, wipe at nylos but you all learned something from it. I feel like there's a place for learner raids with no pressure and there's a place for people doing speedruns and bashing out 10 completions in a row, it's just a problem when people end up in the wrong group.
I wonder if jagex ever thought of making a (Play with bots) option for multiplayer things in the game. I wonder how hard it would be to program something like that. 3 bot partners and you manage their invi after every section or something. Or would it be to grief dying on a HC cause of a bot lol.
1-3 torstol runs a day will pay for bossing supplies
I’d learn TOB as long as someone is willing to teach me
That’s the thing though. Almost no one is. Even the official We Do Raids discord server never has ToB mentor/learner raids anymore. More power to you if you can find someone willing to teach you. Realistically, you’ll have to teach yourself. That’s the barrier discussed in the vid.
My clan and I learnt without any teachers. Over a week of just wipes, we would finally make it all the way to sote or xarpus and then be stuck at maiden for a day. It was all practice. I’m over 200 kc now and a lot of my clan mates have now done over 100 hard modes. It is easy enough to learn IF YOU FIND A TEAM THAT IS KEEN TO LEARN AND DONT CARE TO LOSE A FEW MIL
My clan is ‘just exist’ if you’d like to come guest and find a keen raider to accompany you.
We’re pretty much all Australian so if you are too, that’s a plus.
My ingane name is ‘Lm rdps’ and I live in world 533 tob bank
@@gepffmains9333 Aus tobbers are cracked as a whole.
@@jinn194hahaha we’re all sweaty down here
Discord we do raids has learner tob raids all the time!
The issue with tob is that none of the items are even worth going for
I've killed all but 4 bosses/raids in the game with combat achievements up to hard done 5k+ total boss kc and I still don't know when I'll even attempt to try it because I don't want to deal with the sweat of osrs just like I don't play fps games really anymore or when I try to hop on for one match all the fun for me is lost from it. If I ever do try it'll be with my clan or a few friends if they get to that point in the game but who knows. 🤷
Going to throw out an unpopular opinion here - I started learning TOB from 0 kc two weeks ago using WDR. Between learner groups and mentor raids I had no issue getting to 118kc since. What has been absolutely atrocious and extremely deterring is HMT. The player base on discords who are brand new is slim, and the majority of high KC raiders either rudely refuse or tell you to get your KC up. Compared to regular TOB, I’ve spent hours sitting at Ver Sinhaza waiting to form a group of four learners.
That's because HMT is annoying to do. Nobody wants to do hmt, they only do it for the rewards. As such nobody wants to waste their time on people that don't know how to do the content at max efficiency (especially with all the chances to kill your teammates in every room). Sadly that's just HMT being tedious content.
Alas, i will probably never be able to tob
The runescape community over the years have taught me to not play the game with others due to a large population being toxic or unwilling to help. I probably won't ever do the raids if I can't solo it. When it comes to tick eating, it's just something I haven't figured out and honestly don't bother. I'm too casual at the game and don't have the time in the day to really learn it past the 2hrs I have after work.
Good comparison when mentioning elden rings difficulty. Though I'd add that group activities like ToB are much harder than elden ring. Let me explain.
In Elden ring the difficulty of each boss can be decreased with proper planning.
Stuck on Godskin duo? Use the sleep status effect to make the fight trivial. Fighting any flesh-based enemy? You can delete them in seconds with a proper bleed build. Fire giant is op? Apply scarlet rot and watch him die slowly. What about the fallingstar beast? Don't use bladed weapons. Make the fight trivial by using crush weapons that use gravity magic.
The Elden ring fights are often only as hard as you make them because there is a weakness that can be exploited.
In ToB, having max stats is the MINNIMUM requirement, and it's still likely to get curb-stomped unless you memorize in-game ticks perfectly. In osrs there is no secret status effect you can use to make the boss easier. I think this is by design, because making the raid extremely difficult keeps the prices of high tier gear overpriced and out of reach for most players. Thus incentivizing the grind.
In short, I can be lower-leveled in Elden Ring but still completely destroy any boss with the proper build and status effects, but I cannot do the same with ToB since it relies on being maxed with max gear, memorizing ticks, and exceptional communication with complete strangers. All of which are impossible for lower levelled players who have not obtained the gear yet.
Max gear is a huge exaggeration, come on now. Nobody is expecting learners to be running max gear, nor should they be running max gear because it's just going to create more complications with equipment management while trying to deal with room mechanics.
The minimum gear requirement is like Elite Void, Zenytes, Tox Trident, Blowpipe, Bgs or Dwh, Occult and Crystal Halberd. That is not a huge ask at all, and anyone who's account is at the point where they're ready for end game level PvM should have all of the above easily. Affording the buyables is like a week of money dragon or money snake, tops.
As for needing close to max stats, well, it's endgame level content. Don't you think it'd be a bit weird if you didn't need to have progressed your account to where it's nearing its maximum potential for content which is designed as the absolute peak of difficulty?
ToB is attractive to me solely because I want to be able to do every raid. I only started in August of last year, and I'm already doing solo CoX and solo ToA Expert raids, so I feel like I'm getting close to this goal. But I've also heard of how hard ToB is, and I'm pretty afraid of trying to learn as a total leech without a full stack of people I already know
Entry mode was a good first step but it's still pretty obnoxious for actual beginners
your microphone has a noise reducer in it... sadly that means it reduces your vocal when it gets below a certain threshold
It would be cool if you could take on a designated “learner role” with no purples and no difficulty increase so your team can finish if you die(some things would have to be put in place to prevent abuse)
This is why I just stick to solo PVMing. The only person I'll burden is myself.
Please put a normalization filter on your audio. Your noise gate is set so close to the low end volume of your voice that your audio just fades in and out and is distracting.
I learned tob doing 416 with a bunch of random players sub 10kc. Takes a while but with some practice and patience you can definetly learn it. No need to wait for a group of friends to carry you. Does less for yourself anyways if you are expecting to be carried each kc. IMO
That is the best way to learn , I’ve learned on wdr and 416 with other learners . By the time I had 10 kc I knew all of the mechanics and tricks (asides from pog tanking) . Could confidently do deathless trios at 10kc . I’ve got clan mates with a couple hundred kc and still die constantly to basic tob mechanics because they did nothing but get carried from 1 kc
@@Obito1994 ya i know a lot of people with a few hundred kc who refuse to go 416. They say they can never get a completion...
@@obilandkenobi yeah after 100 kc you should be able to “carry” in a lot of situations and know every mechanic in the raid
theatre of blood? more like theatre of bagina blood.
Trust me, I know what you mean. I just paid 10m the other day to have somebody carry me through an entry raid for the quest completion
Hate to break it to you but you kinda wasted/got finessed your 10M. Entry/Story ToB is easily cleared by just using range at everything except on Bloat/Nylo rooms.
@@taffeloo I have like 4b, I didn’t care. And the quest completion was on a low level ironman that doesn’t have the best ranged/mage weapons so was worth it to me
noob
@@harknowhere 4b and ur that much of a noob you need a carry LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
@@therat7178 all made from pking. I know nothing about pvm. Been playing this game for 17 years and I only pk..this entire time
Fact
Solution: WeDoRaids
Van Jagex maybe make ToB training grounds? Like no risk at loss for training amd no mass money loss and no reward for training area.
That's kind of the point of entry mode ToB. It doesn't fully fulfill the purpose but it can at least help people get down the basics for most of the rooms if you don't just try and brute force it.
If entry mode is too easy (if you have a scythe you hit the bosses like 3 times and they die) you can make it harder like see if you can get through an entry mode without taking bandages, see if you can get through one with a dragon scimitar just to practice
nah, there's entry mode for a reason. figure it out there and you shouldn't be too much of a burden. if this came out before entry mode i might think you were right.
Yet thousands of people who can learn to be humbled and are open to learn the raid. Farm it and is the best content
Theres entry mode now. So if people arent willing to go into entry mode and learn p2, then it is a motivation and ambition problem. Theres also a verzik p2 trainer. I was able to teach my little brother tob who just started playing 6 months ago. With the things that can be used to learn now compared to before, it is much more approachable. Wdr exists and was how I learned. People arent willing to fail in order to learn is the biggest problem imo. Raids are meant to be done in teams. They royally screwed up toa imo. Its much easier solo than in teams. So for all the noobs out there, use the tools available to you, then use a pvm clan or wdr discord and send it. It is by far the best raid out of all 3 of them.
Chests exists to help the economy. Also the steep learning curve is what keeps the prices high. Its an MMO and people just have to make friends to learn the content together.
Huge bank value energy
Need a solo mode
Watch my newest video here: czcams.com/video/nlCTEAfI9pA/video.html
This is the kind of guy that wants easy mode for soulsborne (etc) games
You know that I directly referenced the franchise in the video and specifically mentioned the series as being one of my favorites right?
There’s nothing wrong with tob mechanics it’s that people don’t want to teach tob or people don’t want to do content that isn’t solo. If you join a nice clan and make some friends you’ll eventually find people to teach you. If you learn how to P2 walk the rest of the raid is a breeze and all you need is a whip and a blowpipe
I need carried
make the game softer than it already is?are you crazy in the head man? im a new osrs player!
They gave us Clan support for a reason my guys find your PvM clan and get their discord, ask for help on ToB there are weekly ToB learners in all big clans.
Anyone that wants to lean raiding joining a PvM clan is very crucial as I am in one and we host learner raids multiple times each day. I'm positive if you search the OSRS forums or 2007scape Reddit you would find a PvM clan that is similar
Hey, do you think you can the PvM clan allows guests? I would love to get my foot into pvming but I’m already in a clan. If so can you tell me the clan’s name so I can join as a guest.
@@jamesnguyen7148
Yeah, shouldn't be a problem there's a minimum requirement of 100 or higher combat level. The in-game name is Soulbane.
ToB has always had this elitism to it that CoX and ToA never had: no one wants to teach or allow room for mistakes all these years later.
Being 100% honest here i think the removal of cheat clients is the big reason, most of people just used gamebreaking plugins there and when they made runelite the only client people just stopped enjoying tob
rewards are mostly trash highest is scythe that is like 400m now and toxic sweaty community won't let anyone join unless you have like 100+ kc
Great video! Honestly having the fun content locked behind having to put time into the game and reach high levels is what made me having zero interest in even opening the wiki page for tob.
Couple that with the almost "boys club" feeling of having to find a party of new player hating people who just want you to run the game all day. It feels closed off and because they decided to add new content and better gear here; Disrupted the power balance of player created item tiers that the actual 2007 scape had. The power creep and requirement to find other people willing to reach endgame and play together with synergy and strategy leaves the remaining playerbase that isn't an Ironman or a bot farm very small.
The incessant use of third party plug-ins that cause tiles or monsters to glow might be helpful but it shouldn't be necessary to learn... especially if the Jajex client pales in comparison. Finally, the constant addition of 'new raids!' Makes a backlog for me mentally that I dont have the energy to bother checking where it is, how much effort to gear for it is and also if I have to group up still. Why bother when you can just buy the items from a GE?
>Couple that with the almost "boys club" feeling of having to find a party of new player hating people who just want you to run the game all day
There are literal raid groups aimed at new players to help them get into it lol, the sweats who don't like inexperienced people keep to themselves
>It feels closed off and because they decided to add new content and better gear here; Disrupted the power balance of player created item tiers that the actual 2007 scape had
The gear that comes from tob isn't even that widely useful outside of doing raids lol besides like avernic and rapier, the rest mostly just has niche use like making low effort pvm like godwars and zulrah more optimized
>The power creep and requirement to find other people willing to reach endgame and play together with synergy and strategy leaves the remaining playerbase that isn't an Ironman or a bot farm very small.
You do realize you had to group up with people to pvm even back in the original 2007 right? like nobody was out here red x-ing/6:0-ing/minion flicking gwd lol, you had to meet up with people and group pvm or join masses, same with like kq, nobody was soloing it back in the day
>The incessant use of third party plug-ins that cause tiles or monsters to glow might be helpful but it shouldn't be necessary to learn... especially if the Jajex client pales in comparison.
Dude people learned tob without the use of plugins, wtf are you even going on about? the tob related plugins didn't come out for a long time until after people had already gotten good at it without them
>Finally, the constant addition of 'new raids
Bro there's 3 raids in the game and there was literally a 4 year gap between tob and toa's release, not to mention that cox and toa are both really easy for casuals to complete
> Why bother when you can just buy the items from a GE?
I don't know why anyone would be buying endgame pvm gear if they aren't interacting with endgame pvm lol
@@watercrystals9744 OK, glad you enjoy the current state of the game. Any recent additions to the game and all of the above mentioned points are how I feel about it. Bots still ruined the economy; Or kept it afloat, depending on how you view the change in social interaction and true "free trade". Previous group fighting bosses were overall more enjoyable imo. This is highlighted by how KBD in classic worked. That playstyle and formula was more fun for me and my friends. None of us play anymore because of the things I've listed about group content and how that direction the game went in to try and retain the playerbase and add content.
That's a weird interpretation of what I wrote lol
You listed a bunch of statements about the game and I pointed out the things that aren't even accurate
I actually have a lot of problems with osrs, including with tob which I think is a really good piece of content but is badly designed because it's so inaccessible to the majority of the players due to the learning curve and is clearly disincentivizing people from even wanting to try it out, leading jagex to create a disaster of an "easy mode" with entry level tob, which does nothing to alleviate the learning curve because you can ignore 99% of the mechanics by face tanking all the damage with early game character stats in the 70-80 range and then shoehorn it into a quest as a crappy attempt at forcing people to engage with it instead of making it actually desirable to play
e.g. the only reward for attempting to learn tob through entry mode is literally just needing to be carried in normal tob because you can't get uniques in entry mode (which I don't think entry mode should reward the normal tob uniques) so you end up basically just wasting your time and would've been better off just joining as a learner on normal tob instead
your problems with group content in osrs just make no sense
you have to group up with people for all the bosses that existed back in rs2 like godwars unless you either know and can do the meta strats which the vast majority of people can't, or you want to get like 1-2 kills a trip and bank
the sweaty players are like a tiny fraction of the actual people playing the game right now, the average runescape player based on jagex's own stats from a few years back has like base 60s in their combat stats lol, they literally have no choice but to group up with random people to kill even easy bosses like kbd if they want to have fun doing that
I don't know if you just spend too much time reading reddit or watching yt creators with maxed accounts, but they really aren't remotely representative of the vast majority people playing this game
@@watercrystals9744 OK, glad you see it that way
Take elite void, lots of brews, safe up and focus on the core mechanics of bosses. Your team will wipe, but you will learn things each time :) xzact’s guides for rooms are very good
Not even bringing up ToB. Most won't starting raiding in general
Never tried tob but i kinda like how punishing it is
If you’ve never tried it then you don’t like it, you just like the idea of it….
This is litterally why i have 500 kc in all raids and 0 in tob. Dont get me wrong im not a tob virgin. But when i tried to learn i just fuckd my team over again and again. Also lost millions and i litterally mean millions. I have trouble learning raids. It takes me a long time to figure what to do and when and why. So after nearly 300 days spent playing in game with an account thats over 10 years old i still havent completed a single tob. Cox is a bit more forgiving. But cox doesnt drop items. 500 kc cox for 4 twisted bucklers, 3 arcances and a ancestral pants. Those 500. Cox took me nearly 1 year to complete. This is why i have next to no desire to play anymore. Cox is easy but the drops only go to the high scoring teammates. Toa is easy and gives good money IF your lucky on purples. About 70 experts dry rn in toa.
You should also mention how time consuming the raids are. And just how fuckd up it is to mess up and wipe right before the chest room. How enthusiasm is high af for the first two or three week. After that its litterally a job. Also dont mess up and buy armor for your gear upgrades. Weapons are the way to go. But when your splitting every drop. It can take months of pvm to get to a zaryte crossbow. Now i know what it takes to get a tbow and shadow of tumeken staff. And ive willingly played for hours everday. But the game doesnt throw me bones anymore. Been a month since my last purple. Loggin nowadays to do a raid and uf i dont purple i logg out in digust anymore. Sucks but endgame requires too much and effort for 1/50 droprate.
You need to talk a bit louder into your mic, great video though
These issues might exist but are not why people don’t do it. They don’t do it because the drops are terrible despite it being the hardest raid. It’s the best content jagex has ever released but without good drops it will always be dead.
tobs for the lower percentage of players, get over it, stay at cox
Tob / bba / should have a solo mode as well.
Adjust the difficulty of these group games so new joiners can learn the ropes solo.
However, the bigger the team, the faster the boss does but the loot remains same, this gives incentives for people to form groups but people who are unable to commit to groups are still able to do the raids abeit with a much longer time.
The way I see it, if such raids are not balanced, osrs will end up like other MMORPG, capitalism which eventually leads to decline due to lesser and lesser players joining while more quitting
Pvm drops crashing ge prices