Intercessor Bolt Rifle Math Hammer: Which Bolt Rifle is Best? Space Marine Review + Tactics Video
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- čas přidán 6. 09. 2024
- So, auto, standard or stalker? Let's run some numbers to help us decide...
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CORRECTION: Apologies, mixed up the two slides for Devastator and Tactical doctrine, they should be the other way round, really sorry if that caused confusion... Thanks to lologoris for pointing that one out!
No worries, We appreciate all the information and the effort! Keep it up, please:)
No worries, I went forward to check and went back.
Question about the grenade launcher maths. Was the calculation made assuming five intercessors fires five separate grenade launchers or just one member of the squad fired a grenade in addition to the rest of the squads weapons? If the later was the case what was the rest of the squad firing?
@@patrickf911 it was the equivalent of 5 grenades just for comparison purposes
Auspex Tactics thank you for the clarification. Excellent video as usual. Thank you for continuing to produce such quality content in these trying times.
Cheers.
As a Fists player, I can attest to say that our chapter tactics benefit the Auto-Bolt Rifle best. With that high a volume of shots along with at least one source of rerolls, it always comes in handy going against Light-Med infantry.
Plus getting - 1 ap boost in tactical make them easier to mulch through pesky 5 up saves. Well worth the 1 point cost per model for the ABR's if you need to paste numbers of GEQ.
The big surprise for me was the grenade launcher almost never being worth it.
Krak is good against T5 mostly, he also didnt show figures against T8, I havent done the math, but i think it also wins there.
But yeah, the frag is pretty shit compared to the new upgraded bolt rifles, maybe before when the ABR was assault 2 and the SBR was damage 1 it had a better chance of out damaging them.
That brings out a interesting point, they forgot to upgrade the grenades when they upgraded the bolter rifles
@@kyledaley2653 Its one for every 5 men in the unit I think. So I believe you can have two in a 10 man squad.
For 1pt it’s worth it
@@kyledaley2653 Dont make statements like "I'm not sure about the data" and not expect someone to chime in with information. I was just trying to clarify because you said you weren't sure about the data. Maybe you meant the data as it pertained to the math but I wasn't sure so I just thought I'd add that in real quick just in case.That's all. No reason to get so defensive, bro. Just say that's not what you were talking about. I would have just said "oh. Sorry about that" and moved on. Have a good one sir, lol.
@@badbishop1049 you can only shoot 1 grenade per unit. So if you have 2 in a unit of 10 only 1 could shoot
You didn't cover this in the video but the grenade launcher is good when you move with the stalker bolters and bolt rifles. Good with stalkers because it's replacing a heavy 1 shot with a grenade 1 shot that won't be suffering the heavy penalty and it has higher str. And if you need to move with the bolt rifles and shooting at a longer range target the str 6 is a flat upgrade because the bolt rifle is only shooting 1 time further than 15 inches.
I went Auto for my Blood Angel ones. Figure it would suit the aggressive style of the chapter. Maybe not as hard hitting as the others but it's still a lot of dakka.
I did the same with my space wolves intercessors. It just feels fitting.
did you give a chainsword to the sergeant?
@@makeris32 yes chainsword and kept the rifle
@@DracoMaverick I may be wrong but that doesn't seem to be an option. Battlescribe doesn't give me any option for the sergeant to keep his rifle at all.
@@diregnome4898 it says Replace Rifle with: any of the special pistol options. It didn't tell me that I couldn't keep the rifle and the chainsword so I'm going by that. If I am wrong about the rules, that's on my own fault for breaking it.
I just took Stalkers for the lore of my custom Chapter, coming from Raven Guard being sneaky long range marksman
When you mentioned what the rest of the army is trying to do I realized I needed Auto Bolt Rifles. Being Salamanders means my devastators and plasma inceptors will be shooting all the tougher stuff, I need to have more hoard clearing
really useful video but hard to watch becuse what your talking about isn't on screen. I had to play the video on my phone and look at the slide on my Laptop. might be worth a re upload if that isn't too difficlt to do :) keep up the great content :)
With the ultramarines falling back and shoot at -1 hit but with bolt storm auto hitting sounds good to me
I don't think you accounted for Grenade weapons getting extra AP in Devastator Doctrine.
Darn, yeah - absolutely right. Forgot about grenade weapons being affected. Thanks for the catch!
@@auspextactics Easy to miss, it almost never comes up otherwise.
My intuition is that alone makes it worth taking with BR/ABR, even if it never gets used after round 1.
Auto for me with white scars successor. Sometimes bolt rifles with the strategm to make them assault if you want to advance etc
The other great thing with the auto is having the auto hit strategm within half range
The Target Sighted strat, you forgot to mention that Raven Guard get +1 to hit AND +1 to wound characters during tactical doctrine. So you could have 8 to 10 intercessors, hitting on 2's and wounding on 3's for most characters, and two damage a pop. Still spendy at 3CP for that, but the Raven Guard really synergize well with that, and IMHO, are the only chapter worth taking this strat on, as you can be in tactical doctrine for 2 turns now.
They also get mortal wounds on 5+.
@@christopherclayton5500 only on sniper rifles or bolt sniper rifles though; not on the Stalker Bolt Rifles the intercessors have for purposes of the video :)
@@connergiven89 No, the stratagem gives them that effect in addition to the "can target characters" thing.
@@christopherclayton5500 holy moly, right you are, sir! Well, that's even better!
Thank you for doing these analyses, takes the guess work out of choosing load outs.
I appreciate the Stalker Bolt Rifle, but for what I want out of it, in a troop slot, in Blood Angels, I'd rather have camo cloaked sniper scouts with a rocket launcher. I doubt it's an optimal choice, but I already have the models, and they're even painted (camouflage on bright red looks odd, but what am I supposed to do not bear my chapter color). I'm not a super competitive player in 40k (Magic the Gathering is a different story), and I don't have the budget to keep current. Especially since I main sisters of battle and there are so many new shinies they have. But I am going to pick up some intercessors at some point, and I will likely be using the auto bolt rifle with them.
I don't think it makes a lot of sense to fill your Battalion with BA Troops at all if you don't have a cheap and viable way of getting them across the table and stuck in, getting value from those heavy flamers and melee bonuses. Right now, I would rather ally my BA Vanguard with a Raven Guard Battallion; sure I'll lose the +1A on charge from Savage Echoes, but my Troops and potentially Eliminators will be much more durable.
@@p_serdiuk I will probably get the transport for them too. Most of the time my BA ride around in Rhinos decked out with Sisters' iconography.
Pre-doctrine update Salamander, I was planning on running a lot of small Stalker squads to make full use of Master Artisans. With the change, I'll be using two basic Bolt Rifles with Aux Launchers and one Stalker squad to still make use of the rule in all squads. It'll probably be 15 Bolt Rifles over two squads and backline the Stalkers with Sniper Scouts and a Tactical Squad to screen out characters and artillery
Can you do which Knight is the best?
Probably will be looking at the knights again when Engine War comes out. In the meantime though I'd recommend the crusader with thermal cannon and AGC :)
What do you think of the inclusion of T8 stuff? Given that it's S4 it'll affect the maths. Always good to try and finish something off with small arms fire if you're big weapons are busy. Thank you as always.
To be honest it'd just be the same as the T7 column but half as good for all of the S4 rifles. I guess the krak grenade launcher would have a mild edge on it... Maybe next time round :)
@@auspextactics Keep up the great work.
The thing is they're all str 4. It would effect all of them equally. We'd need a str 5 option to get a difference.
I tend to roll them like this:
1) Auto - only full size veterans, only if having option to deepstrike or infiltrate, sometimes - also autohit strat then trying to charge. Only real downside is having to spend at least 3 CP. It's actually really devastating against even heavy infantry just because of sheer amount of autohits. Always try to charge (that's why veterans strat).
2) Stalker - if I can't reliably kill at least one character in one turn, I take this loadout. Just to aid eliminators and sniper scouts. Also, only gunline army list.
3) Boltrifle - either gunline or aim for rapid fire.
Are the slides for the Devastator and Tactical Doctrine mixed up?
I do believe they are yes.
Looks like it yes.
Ah, that's annoying. Apologies for that, will post a correction above. Need to work on my reading comprehension. Thanks for spotting it!
Being able to use the Boltstorm Strategem on an ABR equipped deathwatch intercessor unit during an overwatch attack would be absolutely monstrous with hellfire ammunition. Unfortunately, it's Shooting Phase only.
As someone who’s new to the game I’d would be really helpful in your videos to show what you’re talking about and to give some examples by way of a clip or something. A lot of what you say goes over my head, which you probably don’t mind as you clearly hear your videos towards people who know the game very well. Still like what you do though
I would have chosen stalker previously for my iron hands successor chapter but your comment about the context of the army is making me rethink, I have plans for 2 repulsor executioners, 2 tactical warsuits and a leviathan....so maybe I don't need high AP troops? Having said that I also have only made the leviathan, repulsor and one warsuit plus one squad of tactical marines at the moment so I have the ability to choose before building more troops. Oh and controversially I have one squad of plasma inceptors.
Will you do an updated version?
It seems like bolt rifles are better for objective holders than stalkers for most of the game simply due to bolter discipline: bolt rifles get double shots if the unit is stationary. On turns 2 and 3 this means you have the same S4 AP-2 for both guns, but bolt rifles get two D1 shots which is more useful than the single D2 shot of stalker bolt rifles (no wasted wounds vs 1 wound models, doesn't get reduced against dreads or death guard). You also have the double shots strategem, so a unit of 5 can have 4 times the shots compared to stalkers.
Strangely enough, the stalker bolt rifle probably always outperforms the bolt rifle vs marines when the squad is moving and more than 15" away. Stalkers hit at 4+, wound at 4+, and each failed 5+ save is a dead marine. Moving bolt rifles hit at 3+, wound on 4+, with 5+ saves too (turns 2 and 3) but you're only getting half the wounds.
Fantastic Job
Hmm, how much does this also apply to Hellblasters (also with a choice of Assualt/rapid/heavy variants)? Probably less of a difference since their starting AP of - 4 means that the Doctrine they are in matters far less. I mean how often do you need AP - 5?
james puliin when you null zone a bunch of custodes
@@roaringlaughter3812 4+ invuln go brrrr
Not sure if the same rings for other people but as a deathwatch player I personally find both the auto and standard bolt rifle to be a better option than the stalker pattern when using SIA on them
I used standard bolt rifles mainly as I use them for screening for Bjorn.
With the wolf stratagem "true grit" would they benefit from assault doctrine?
Don't blood angels have bolter discipline? Wouldn't that let them shoot a standard bolt rifle at rapid fire at full range if they dont move?
Sons of gulliman let's you fire as if standing still if you're in tactical doctrine and didn't advance or fall back. Which would fit best with that? More assault? Or utilize bolter discipline high AP shots?
How do people feel about assault rifles and a thunder hammer in impulsers for turn1 shots and a threat if they aren't dealt with?
space wolfs have a stratagem to use in combat if have Auto Bolt Rifle/ Bolt Rifle and make them Pistol 2. *TRUE GRIT* so cold be god to use if not meny models left in a unit combat with and want to use unit charge a different unit close to them.
I really like this strat. It's super situational and rarely comes up. But when it does it always catches my friends off guard. Don't mind me, I'm just gonna murder bolt what's left of this squad I'm locked up with and then charge into the next 😂
@@sirdanthechipwright821 if mad and depending big your unit is or what kind of enemy they are close to.. cold use BOLTSTORM strategem auto hit with them in combat now.
YES I was about to make a reddit post about this, thank you!
Does the bolter discipline work for bolt rifles as well? So when they are half range they shoot 4 times instead of 2? Love your videos, they help me out alot!
You legend.
Love this. Please do one similar for Deathwatch special issue ammo
Does boltstorm also affect it? autohitting at close range is a big bonus.
Thanks!
Still glad I’m using the auto bolt rifle to make poxwalkers and guardsmen disappear
I have a question, in this video you say Auto bolt rifles shoot 3 shots at 24" but my codex says they are Assault 2, am I missing something? I am returning to the hobby from 5th edition and am a bit confused.
they updated the bolt rifles in the more recent space marine codex.
You should probably just take this down and start over. Mismatching the discussion to the wrong charts pretty much screws up this version of the video.
Is the slide still mixed up?
I can rarely recall clicking faster
So wich bolter best for Space Wolves??
I play salamanders and a 10 man squad of bolt rifles with suppressing fire and crucible of battle is really hard to not take. Lol it’s 3 cp but damn..... it fucking wrecks.
Do you now have to pay a point for each auxiliary grenade launcher?
While the Auto Bolt Rifle is good, I don't think you mentioned that it does cost an addition point over the other two variants. So there is a bit of hidden cost in your assessment of each weapon as 17 Auto Bolt Rifle Intercessors is like having 18 Bolt Rifle Intercessors.
Yeah, that's true to be fair. Should probably have mentioned it as it is definitely a factor. Thanks :)
I’m building autos: mass of fire is still king in 8th, and assault weapons offer the most flexibility in movement options anyways. I probably won’t be using the stratagem though, to many other important stratagems have priority, and I don’t like brigade tax for CP, (or how CP works for that matter) so I’m taking only one, in some lists I may even not bother with it at all and just take a patrol.
Do the Eldar Guardian vs. Dire Avengers :)
Bolt rifles? We use good old Bolters, anything else is heresy! :)
If only I didn't run a non primaris army!
sternguard for ap bolters it is then :)
It’s pronounced ‘doc-trin’
I’m sorry but that ‘doc-treen’ you keep saying really grates
Will try and keep it in mind for future vids, sorry :D
@@auspextactics doc-treen is completely valid. I say "doc-trin" and I still never noticed how you said it.
Best troop weapons in the entire game and 2 wounds yeah not overpowered at all lmao playing primaris must be like playing on super easy mode.
Throw A. Way here son, take some salt.
You actually have no idea what you’re on about
Clay Keller
All 3 load outs of Intercessors do different jobs, you wouldn’t give a squad auto bolt rifles and sit the on a backfield objective because they’d be useless no matter how good there guns are, there actually 3 different units and comparing there load outs is pretty pointless as when building your force you know what you want them to do, I.e push forward, sit back or bit of both, in essence there 3 different units depending on how you want to play.. don’t get me wrong the math is sound but again your not going to load them with stalkers and run them up field trying to catch a midfield objective