Parramatta Road to Green Square - New Light Rail for Sydney?
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- čas přidán 29. 06. 2024
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The NSW Government would be absolutely mad if they don’t green light this proposal, as this would be a game changer for how the people of Sydney will commute to and from Inner Sydney & the CBD in every way conceivable.
It's the NSW Government WHEN were they ever sane or done anything sane.
@@PhlanMichellePurss Sydney Metro, B-line, L2/L3, Parramatta LR werent sane or sensible to you?
There's no way a Labor government supports the expansion of the privatisation of public transport in their first term.
Although it would be bloody hilarious seeing all the rage comments about costs for the next $25 years.
@@louiscypher4186 Labor did the original PPP on the Airport Line, and tried for years to build the first Metro line when they were last in power which was going to have a private Operator.
@@kyletopfer7818 The airport was was in Labor's second term under Carr as part of the Olympic spend and before the major backlash against private public transport.
I think this is a great idea. Both sections of the line would def bennift.
Though the central section may start to get a bit overwhelmed especially if they want to increase service in the future.
Such a good proposal!! The government must take the opportunity
I think the Parramatta to Liverpool dedicated T80 bus route could be converted to lightrail as could the other route from Parramatta to Blacktown...it only took a few years to dismantle the extensive Sydney Tram network...The lightrail odyssey commenced in 1997..and has taken 27yrs to get to this pace.
Pick up the pace.".you know it makes sense".
The T80 as light rail is a pipedream. Not only would it take decades of earthworks to regrade and require installing a tonne of level crossings.
But it was built without giving a damn about the south west at all so if they want it to be viable they'd have to reroute it in several locations.
The lack of swing seats in the region makes it unlikely any politicians have an interest.
i love the way that the majority of tram line suggestions for Sydney are exactly where tram routes originally ran.. :)
It's a heartbreaker for sure.
Need to get value uplift payments from property developers.
They’re allegedly trying to at Pyrmont so it could happen
That's the only way this can make financial sense. It needs to happen
Wow! This would be bloody awesome!
Just getting from the CBD to Broadway, UTS, USyd is currently quicker to WALK than take a bus. Besides, it would cut down so much traffic congestion on Parramatta Road & Broadway.
@@AlphaGeekgirl walking is great for your health too, considering we are be becoming a more sedentary nation...it will keep us fit and help stave of type 2 Diabetes cases.
Excellent video, very concise delivering some exciting news. I've been saying this to my friends for a while now, although I did not expect it to be profitable. I'm glad it is, because it doesn't feel like the government had any desire to do this otherwise.
THIS IS SUCH A W IDEA WE NEED THIS IN SYDNEY NOW
Top video, we definitely need more projects like these. Please do more on the future eastern suburbs metro extension.
I think I've said this on one of your videos before, but universities are such a major driver of public transit - it's bonkers that Sydney has so much rail but none of it to USyd. I'm not at all surprised that Altrac are now saying they could make money on it.
... or UTS or Notre Dame (another 40,000 students and staff).
I would LOVE to see Parramatta Rd be revitalised like this, but to be honest, I don't see how this could be made.
This is very professionally developed and attractive proposal, but only in theory.
Too many busy roads criss-cross Parramatta Rd like Liverpool Rd in Haberfield; Norton St and Crystal St in Leichardt; Bridge Rd and Missenden Rd in Camperdown; City Rd, Wattle St, and Abercrombie St in Broadway, and Harris St in Ultimo.
Not to mention the M4/WestConnex exit in Haberfield feeds directly to Parramatta Rd at Haberfield into Taverners Hill.
Even if all traffic from out west were forced to use the recently opened M4/WestConnex route to get in and out of the city, the current capacity would probably need to be doubled to handle traffic that would be cut off from using Parramatta Rd to get to places like Leichardt, Camperdown, or Broadway.
The ONLY motorway tunnel route heading east along the same path as Parramatta Rd is the M8, but there is NO exit until you get to the St Peters Interchange.
So unless they can add new exits to the M8, or find some alternate to replace Parramatta Rd along the same path, I just don't see how this would work.
Also, where the hell are the trams starting/terminating? Sloane St is nothing more than a local suburban street that crosses Parramatta Rd. Are they planning to demolish whole blocks of houses to build a terminus at that end?
So are you saying that the justification for Westconnex was to get traffic off Parramatta Road was a lie???
Trams should be running up norton street, crystal st , bridge st, abercrobombie st, and the rest, this looks like a fine backbone to such a system especially if there are is an option to run into the city center.
Prioritising cars over trams is what got us into the public transport mess that Sydney is in. The more and better the public transport the less usage of cars. Cars refusing to give up lanes to far more efficient modes of transport is madness.
At 8 minute headways these trams have a maximum capacity of 3,500 pax / hour / direction. A single lane of this kind of road is about 1,500 or less until you hit peak hour where it can take a nose dive. This should reduce congestion - fairly significantly at peak hour - improve bus services, and make life easier for emergency vehicles, especially if the trams get light priority. A 3 lane section goes from about 4500 pax / hr up to 6,500 pax / hour + buses (if we say 1 every 8 minutes using the tramway that's another 600). If you rip out another lane for a protected bike path you add another 10,000 pax / hour capacity.
The news stories about this proposal talked about the long over due redevelopment of Parramatta Road but it baffles me why only to Taverner's Hill. Most of Parramatta Road is a dead zone with run down neighbourhoods and closed businesses all along it. Why not take a light rail the full length of Parramatta Road and redevelop the entire strip?
Imagine that will be stage 2. Gotta get this through first.
I would hope the planners see this as the end goal. But for now, it's more likely to get off the ground if they keep the numbers small
Because it's not feasible.
Remember the cost blowouts on the CBD metro due to the gas lines under George Street?
They run the entire length of Parramatta road.
Which means either you're going to have to disconnect thousands of properties from gas and compensate the gas companies for lost revenue or your going to have to relocate the gas lines.
If the Parramatta Rd to Green Square light rail opens this means:
Bus route 320 will be ceased
Routes 438x and 461x will be changed to all stops instead of express (Leichhardt and Railway Square section)
It would be either L5 or L6 (if Stage 2 of Parramatta Light Rail opens)
If it extends to Burwood (or Strathfield maybe), this means that route 461x will either be ceased, or timetable reduced
Great video. So much better analysis tha what is in the press. But hard to see it getting traction without speeding up and increasing access to the CBD. L2/L3 must be close to capacity so there would need tobe a new route through the CBD e.g. Castlreagh or Elizabeth St - which would be politically tricky given the George St tantrums.
@@jack2453 it’s a risk it’s going to be needed, it’s can be a continuous loop of let say parra rd to kingsford via George and Elizabeth st loop
Great vid! I hope we get it!
Would be a brilliant addition. Frankly it should also roll through Botany Rd in Mascot past the train station as well and up King St in Newtown which is virutally designed for light rail.
I was thinking the same thing!
I don't think it is a good idea to have interlining or stop sharing between CSELR and this new Parra Rd to Green Square (PR2GS) line. Both PR2GS and CSELR will be very heavily-used lines in the not too distant future, potentially needing to run trams every 1-2 minutes on all. LI think they need to build new tracks down Elizabeth Street, have the CSELR move to those, run PR and GS on to George Street as they used to do.
The L1 can't really through-run to GS either, as it can only run 35m trams rather than the 67m coupled sets proposed for PR2GS and already in operation on CSELR. I do agree that it might be best moving L1 away from the colonade as the section from George Street up to Central is an extremely slow section of the L1, though this can be partly solved in the future by actually buying decent-quality trams that are designed for the line not the cheapest junk.
The proposal also suggests that wire-free could be used, but this would be insane given all the problems we have had on CSELR. I hope they can find a way to increase capacity for events at Moore Park as currently the operations are simply to slow and not enough capacity to deal with match-day or concert crowds.
I was under the impression that if they would be implementing the Green Square section of this proposal, they would add extra tracks so there would be no stop or track sharing (but with switchovers for special services e.g. to Moore Pk)
@@janesk1 the Problem with Moore Park special events Trams the way it is currently configured you can't load and turn back trams fast and efficiently enough to run more than a tram every 2 minutes or so for only a short period of time. They need to totally reconfigure that end, obviously if trams had more space and track to run through at Central rather than the current arrangement that would help.
Regarding adding an extra track pair in Eddy Avenue and Chalmers, that will be very space constrained and they didnt make that clear in the proposal documents but it may be right. Leipzig has 4 tram platforms at its Central Station but that gets a little messy, Frankfurt used to have 4 but they cut back to 2 a while ago and have been talking about expanding back to 4 again which they should probably do. So its not unheard of.
Great video!
I’ve been advocating for a Parramatta Road light rail for a long time as t
I’ve watched the once vibrant Main Street become a car clogged stroad.
It would revitalise the entire area from Glebe to Leichhardt greatly at the very least. Extending it on to Parramatta ultimately would also be great for the continued growth of Sydney.
That a very great interview say about this feedback well done mate!
It’s a gamble, but also convert Elizabeth st into a tram line and do a full loop. Did do a map but didn’t add green square/zetaland tram line (was a backwater in my mind but will add this). Reason why so they can operate let say parra rd to kingsford and have lots of patterns, like one tram goes to kingsford via cq, another skips city loop but goes to Randwick and whatnot…. Maybe even start having route numbers like Melbourne
Also add a tram to Bondi beach. Can work, it’s will be struggle with Bondi Rd but it’s can work.
Yeah... Bondi Beach for sure.
I feel sorry for the residents there in summer with all the cars.
The same company that built the broken L2-3 line with cracks in the tracks only after 2-3 years of usage
signals and points that fail in the rain.
Dont forget the numerous APS power box failures which require the vehicles to switch to onboard batteries to bridge dead sections.
Also the fact that the Citadis vehicles are chewing/destroying the track at an accelerated rate.
@@joshporter5422 but hey at least we'll have light rail and keep the Greta Thunberg's of the world happy.... who said reliability was part of the equation? 🤣
I pray that one day the Parramatta light rail and those of the L1-3 will eventually be able to form a single, connected network and solve the last mile problem for the entire region
Great idea! Yes 👍🏽
Car traffic capacity might be reduced, by with bike lanes and tramways the pax capacity would be increased, potentially significantly. This is a great idea.
Are there plans ro build public transport beyond the inner west? Like the Hills Districts? Or Penrith area, which has large housing estates, the M4 and infrequent buses? Or Macarthur area? Or Fairfield area?Sydney has population beyond Parramatta and the inner core.
Agree. NSW population projections by 2041 have 3.4 million people living Parramatta and west compared to 2.5 million East of Parra. But I am all for suitable light rail projects anywhere in Sydney and we can all benefit if it is accompanied by high density housing . Parramatta road has so much potential and USyd and RPA precincts could benefit from light rail. Hopefully this proposal comes with higher density housing.
There are a few places west of Parramatta where light rail could work. But first we need the metro/rail connections. Need to connect hills district to parramatta via metro (not light rail). Extend metro at Tallawong to St Marys (or at least Schofields). Connect leppington to the new Airport. And connect Macarthur to new airport.
A Penrith light rail would bring so much to the area, they need some work densifying too.
Highly unlikely the government doesn't give a fuck about about the Greater West.
Just look at the lack of transport options in the south west for the new airport. the only way to get to by train is via Saint Mary's.
Liverpool the closest major metro area to the new airport will be 1.15hrs by train.
Campbelltown 2.5hrs by rail, they won't even put in the connection to leppington which is less than ideal as it doesn't suit either major hub.
I agree, but density isn't high enough to justify large transit infrastructure out there.
Needs to go right up into the CBD via Elizabeth Street. Not having this as an option is what hurts the L1. You can still have a 'cross-country' service (as proposed by Altrac and depicted in this video) but you should also have the majority of services running out from the northern end of the CBD down Elizabeth St. Another branch running down Oxford St all the way to Bondi Beach should be incorporated into this plan as well. Do all of that plus extend the L2 right down to Coogee Beach, extend the L3 to Maroubra Beach and La Perouse (L3L), and have another branch along City Rd past USYD to Missenden Rd, and then you've got light rail in the Eastern Suburbs & Inner West sorted, starting with this project. This is Minns' chance to leave behind a legacy, but does he have the cajonies to finally give it the green light it should've been given 25 years ago? Let's see.
You're dreaming mate. Also I think on of their options for Central works as that where the line goes to circular quay instead. People can transfer modes around central for last leg and Metro will make that easy for the key city areas.
Not to mention the option to use the “tracks” as a bus way similar to how L2 tracks are used between Moore park and Kingsford. Win win IMO
Public transport is needed in the West and growth areas that lack public transport options, not areas that already them.
Important point. Even though a plan like this would have enormous benefits, it is hard to justify as long as there is such a backlog in the west.
Parramatta Road from Ultimo to Ashfield already full of traffic anytime of the day. If they build New Light Rail , you basically give the car, bus, van a death sentence on the Parramatta road.
That's the idea!
@@jack2453 Do you know how many different bus numbers travelling along the Parramatta Road ? At least 10-15 The government want to make it look like a European city with Light Rail. It has nothing to do with solving the traffic problems. the cost for maintenance much higher than bus and less efficient
And how many buses will no longer be required after a much higher capacity tramway gets built?
@thetrainguy4 you are so dumb . Light rail can't cut through the suburbs and connect with shopping centre,train and bus . It just a straight line on the main road
Good idea!
I think this is a great proposal, although I reckon they need to come up with a better idea regarding how the line interacts with central station
it should join up with Olympic Park that way it'll be parra to city light rail.
Not a great benefit though, because no-one will use it to go from Parramatta to the city, as it would be uselessly slow compared to the T1, BMT or Metro West when it opens.
@@SYDTrainsFilms True but, at least with trams it'll be closer to the destination where the heavy rail cannot reach, that's where LR and Metro come in handy sometimes.
1:35 Wattle Street and Chippendale are a bit messed up on the map.
(Actual Wattle Street (UTS) is where Chippendale is marked, and And Glebe Point Road is where Wattle Street is marked)
How to build to budget this time ?Or increase capacity per carriage ?
Look good!give me more details good future,,,,,
A worry is that all the fanfare could crowd out consideration of other potential light rail projects ( as highlighted in your recent excellent video) many of which might be better value than Parramatta Rd. I have long thought that a combination of an upraded high frequency T2, the Parramatta metro and traffic reduction/busways/pedestrianisatin on P road could do the trick and Little Bay, Eastgardens, Carlingfird missing link, crosstown routes etc etc should be higher priorities. This proposal could potentially capture the debate.
Would be even better if this can service RPA and Newtown
I’m all for public transports but is there not already sufficient public transports in and around the CBD and Parra areas e.g. Parramatta Light Rail, Bankstown Metro, Dulwich HIll Light Rail, frequent buses and trains, Uber and taxis? I don’t see any infrastructure proposals for south west Sydney, in particular the Fairfield, LIverpool and Campbelltown corridors. There’s hardly any major highways along Fairfield and absolutely no motorways, no light rails, no metros, buses and trains are so infrequent and long journey times, especially weekends. If you stay in the city after 1am on the weekend, you get one night bus per hour. This will only cause people from the west to not take public transports and drive into the city. The only public transport development is the St Mary’s metro, and that doesn’t even reach any of the three major LGAs. Liverpool and Campbelltown are major growth LGAs and both the Hume Hwy and M5 in Liverpool are becoming a Parramatta Rd nightmare.
Those areas are not nearly as dense. The areas you list do have decent bus coverage and frequent train services all week.
@@thetrainguy4you seem to have a skewed definition of 'frequent', just saying...
@@thetrainguy4 I wouldn’t consider every 20mins during peak is decent when other places get one every 7-10 mins, and that’s not even counting the buses around the inner west, which get one every 2mins during peak. Not peak, you’d be lucky to get one every 30 mins. And those buses don’t take you to the city, only to the nearest train station, which you then must sit on a train for 60-70mins.
If it’s only about density, then why bother with Parramatta, focus on the east and inner west only, which are way denser. The fact that Parramatta already has super frequent trains (4min peak), 20min express trains to city, buses to city, M4, M2, light rail, going to have Metro West and now going to have another light rail.
Also, if we’re just going to focus on the already dense areas, that will only increase house prices that are already high, making it even more unaffordable as more people will want to move to these already dense areas. If you build a station in woop woop, people will want to move there coz there’s at least one selling point, especially in the current housing crisis
They should build it at Bondi
Does Altrac own any property along the corridor?
They will soon (hopefully; we'll get more PT because of it)
Great video, interesting the various central options. I'm not convinced they need to link the two new lines together at central though, just an appropriate interchange between lines and central.
Note I'm a Labor member and I have zero faith in Minns/Haylen... I doubt I'll be voting for the party that I'm a member of next NSW election... Especially if they ignore this!
So hyped for Parra Rd light rail !
LR should head to Rosebery, instead of Zetland. Zetland is already getting a metro
Zetland is not already getting a metro...
DO IT DO IT DO IT
Seriously, Parramatta Rd needs this badly. It’s just an awful place to be a pedestrian at the moment, and it shouldn’t be.
There should be bipartisan support, too! Labour love to promote public transport spending and pretend it was their idea. Coalition will love that road users are forced on to private toll roads and use privately operated parking lots.
The only thing I’d change - and it’s probably a down the line thing - is the terminus at Taverners Hill. It should continue a short distance to terminate at Ashfield station.
Will you be doing a video on the July roadmap?
Look, probably not. TSW5 has killed all the remaining interest I had in the franchise so unfortunately I’ll probably stop making videos on it.
@@thetrainguy4 Completely understand, just want to see some other thoughts and it and have some summer speculation to try and brighten up our spirits.
Option 3 having a stop on Eddy Avenue would be fantastic for pedestrians... but I can see there would be fatalities. :(
Just watching pedestrians crossing from Belmore Park to Central freaks me out, without the addition of people getting off the tram.
This is why we can't have new things.
CoS have plans to build a ped bridge from Grand Concourse to Belmore Park, that could reduce foot traffic. Trams are also more predictable than cars and so ped collisions would be far more avoidable than with cars.
Why can't that section of road be closed, so that we can have a central station with multiple modes?
I dont see this happening at least not until the airport is built.
How to build a double decker tram this time
Who are the joint venture partners and how do they finance this ? U have to remember these type of privately funded projects normally cost the taxpayer more in the long run as the private sector borrow on behalf of government at higher interest rates plus then charge a premium back to the govt. whereas if the govt funded it itself could borrow at far cheaper rates.
It’s an infra company and a few super funds IIRC. It may be more expensive in the long run but for taxpayers that expense is constant over many decades, reducing budgetary pressures and enabling sooner construction.
@@thetrainguy4 I'd agree with this.
I'm pretty sure Altrac has renamed their brand as "CAF" - Don't quote me on that though.
???
privatised tram infrastructure is always a bad idea and the tax payer will always foot the bill.
Afaik the infrastructure itself isn’t privatised, they are contracted to design it.
It would be owned by the government and operated by Altrac in the same arrangement as the current lines.
The only real option for extending the light rail is down parramatta road. Green Square has a train station already as well as bus services. Creating a new line that just continues down george street on to parramatta road to the university of Sydney is the only realistic project. Everything else is just pie in the sky stuff.
Ugh I would love this
This would benefit me greatly. And hopefully many others.
Could they maybe not cut through so many cycleways?
Just one, which has no real alternative alignment?
Why are trams called Light Rail?
Didn't Minns reject it? If so the opposition should take a hard look at it.
No, Minns hasn't said anything just yet.
Parramatta rd yes but dont come to redfern its already chaotic enough here..
My 'Unsolicited Proposal' is to use brumbies brought down from the Snowy to pull drays. Hand out advertising umbrella's to the office workers when it rains. Multi-modal is all the go. Clop, clop, clop, "Gee yup!" 😉
I'm confused by this comment.
Already dead. Goivernment have said bus priority is all Parra Road is going to get.
This mob is hopeless.
Nope, that was just a comment made by Jo Haylens (the transport Minister) office, and doesn't fully reflect what's going to happen fully.
Question is: how long is it going to take to build?
And how long until it is actually accessible to the public?
Both City and Parramatta light rail projects have major delays.
A lot less than metro.
its a tram
This will never happen as the govt is already opposed to it even if ALTRAC fully funds the upfront costs of the construction.
The govt is not strictly opposed to it- they just very loudly discussed other projects they are focussing on. Anything can happen.
Let's hope that the government does let this go through! How amazing would it be to see parramatta road get rejuvenated? ;p
@@thetrainguy4 Jo Haylen said after this proposal got unveiled that they only want to improve bus services on parramatta road, whilst Chris Minns called it a waste of money.
@@anguscovoflyer95a waste of whose money though? Not Chris Minns that's for sure. We need projects like these to go forward unimpeded
This is the dumbest idea ever. For the density of these areas only a metro would make sense. Reducing Parramatta Road to one lane for cars in each direction is absolutely insane.
Parramatta Roads has just been increased to 10 lanes for cars by Westconnex, can't we have one or two back.
The proposal has a bus and general lane in each direction. Add the trams down the middle and you have a street that can move far more people in the same space. Car-oriented planning doesn’t work in urban environments.
@@jack2453Except inner west locals have been told to use Paramattta Rd and avoid the Rozelle Interchange
@@thetrainguy4there’s already a bus lane in each direction with a staggering amount of bus routes. Adding light rail while having to share stops with buses is idiotic. Given the density of the corridor only a metro would make sense.
Here’s a thought- some of the routes will be made redundant when the trams open…
If we consider the long-term perspective, there's only one answer: the METRO. Outdated trams are being phased out in many countries, like Malaysia. These trams are relics of the last century, with unsightly wires! Businesses along the CBD routes are suffering and have not recovered. While developed regions are burying power lines underground and removing poles, Sydney is cluttering our skies! If you dare add the messy wires and torn-up ground to the renderings, no one will like them. Trams should not be built in crowded areas; they belong in museums
I don’t know where you have been but trams a very good😂
Most developed countries are perusing new ‘Modern European’ style trams. Wires are not ugly if done right. Paris for example has built hundreds of kms in the last 20 odd years, you don’t know what you’re talking about.
That's hilarious! Not sure where you've been hiding these past 5 to 10 years but worldwide light rail has been the saviour of many many cities around the world. Including Sydney! Have you actually looked at the numbers?
I ride the light rail in the CBD more than 50 times per week. There is no comparison.
@@thetrainguy4 As far as I know, Paris's METRO will outlast TRAM. Adding power lines and countless poles is huge visual pollution with no solutions. Tracks for noisy trams must be on concrete, which isn't suitable for densely populated areas. Concrete roads are noisy and cause visual and light pollution, making cozy neighborhoods feel industrial!!! This is why people avoid these areas. Look at Parramatta Road and around Sydney Park-Places with such roads typically lose the sense of community along the way, resembling more of an industrial area. This correlation is undeniable. Look at high-quality, cozy, successful communities-how many use concrete roads?
METRO is the future SIMPLE
@@donttalkcrap I just want to say that METRO offers more long-term value. Imagine swapping your daily tram for a METRO that runs every 4 minutes during peak hours. Outside the metro station, you'd enjoy streets better suited for walking and quiet, cozy communities.
Clover Moore is campaigning to have this accepted 👍
They are called trams Shitney….
China Civil Engineering Construction Corporation have build the same light rail in Israel, Red Line (Tel Aviv Light Rail), Australia should import the Chinese labours to build rail way and houses.
NO.
this is gonna be a shit show like the other light rail projects, make existing roads smaller and remove bus routes reducing over all public transport capacity and increasing traffic
Increasing capacity you mean?
@@thetrainguy4 no, when they made the south east line they removed loads of bus routes thus lower capacity, it was also a pain in the arse because so many roads were closed off for years while they built it.
No cycleways. Waste of money for the absolute minority that use them
Except that building them in useful places encourages more people to use them, taking cars off the road reducing congestion.
@@thetrainguy4 except that's not the case. Rarely see a bike lane being used in the cbd
do not do this its so stupid
Personally, I don't think this is a good idea