Standard 2: What Went Wrong [Marvel Champions]

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  • čas přidán 6. 09. 2024

Komentáře • 64

  • @mrjediknight
    @mrjediknight Před měsícem +7

    I'm sure I read something from Boggs somewhere where he said sometimes they used surge to try and make the game simpler. If a card seemed too complex because it did too much they would simplify the card and add surge. Individual cards could have fewer effects to make it simpler for players but they could still chain multiple effects together. On the other hand if something was too easy they would just put surge on it without fully realising how that made the game harder. It also seemed that designers were making alterations fairly late in the process without a lot of time to test them.

    • @mrjediknight
      @mrjediknight Před měsícem +2

      Found the quote from Boggs on hall of heroes, pretty sure I read it on Facebook when he first posted it "In all seriousness, I do agree that surge has maybe been overused, and some of those instances were definitely my decision. That said, surge is an important keyword for the game for one key reason: simplicity.
      The target audience of Champions is one where people who haven’t played a ton of card games in the past can sit down and still have a fun time with the game pretty much off the bat. With that in mind, there have been many times when we’ve gotten to the end of development and realized that some of our cards were too wordy, or some of the concepts were higher in complexity than we wanted. One of the largest hurdles for many casual players to overcome is wordiness-not even being able to process a card because there’s too much information presented at once-and in those instances, surge was considered a good replacement as it let us break things into more digestible chunks. Instead of a card with a lot of words and two tiny paragraphs, it became two cards that a player could look at and process independently, maybe even with fewer words overall.
      However, surge has definitely made its way onto cards that absolutely should not have it (Fanaticism is the best example). In those cases, surge was often added at the end in the hopes of reducing complexity (replacing whatever text with surge), but sometimes also to add challenge or to make a card spicier. While the former has merit, I don’t personally believe surge should ever really be used to increase difficulty. If players want that experience, there’s already an entire mode that exists.
      As the game continues, though, I think we’ll see this issue corrected. I believe it made its way onto more of my products overall not because I love surge, but because I would often push the game into more complex areas. That sometimes meant big changes at the end, and surge was often favored for its simplicity. But both Tony and Caleb are aware of the community’s feelings toward surge at this point, and I’d wager they’ll find other solutions. - Boggs [Facebook]"
      hallofheroeslcg.com/2020/07/08/marvel-champions-lcg-interview-resources/
      He did have some interesting insights to share when he left FFG. I think we've now seen everything he worked on. During the last livestream they mentioned that Bogg's did the initial design on Iceman before he left. So the current wave must have been in development in early 2022.

    • @VillainTheory
      @VillainTheory  Před měsícem

      I'm familiar with some of that but I don't know if I've ever seen the entire quote. That's extremely interesting. My only question is that it implies that Surge was added onto Standard II and Expert II to reduce their complexity which doesn't seem to be true as far as I can see here. The effects seem intended to mimic Standard 1 and Expert 1 through and through?
      Perhaps there's more to it but thanks for sharing this. I'll pin it!

    • @sedlak87
      @sedlak87 Před měsícem

      @@VillainTheory it's more simple to bump up the card a bit and add surge than add a bigger effect without surge.

    • @VaultBoy13
      @VaultBoy13 Před měsícem

      I don't know if it would mess up the balance of anything, but I feel like with Surge the effect shouldn't have been able to chain or there should've been a limit that it only triggers once per Step of Phase. If you reveal a card with Surge, then Surge happens. If the next card has Surge, then ignore the word.
      Surge tends to be at it's worst when you just keep revealing card after card. Similarly, they should've had a keyword for adding another boost card with that same limitation.
      Surge, since it's a keyword, could be fixed similar to how they fixed Teamwork. Extra boost cast though can't without errata for these cards.

  • @DrMcFly28
    @DrMcFly28 Před měsícem +12

    The error was calling it "Standard 2" instead of something like "Brutal"

  • @Anondod
    @Anondod Před měsícem +9

    Surge is a very tricky thing in a game like this. I think it's fine as something that shows up on a card here and there, but if you use it too much you vastly increase the risk of having a run of cards that make you lose from what feels like purely bad luck. (And that feeling wouldn't be entirely wrong.) IMO cards that already have strong negative effects should never have surge.

    • @Rey_Plays_Games
      @Rey_Plays_Games Před měsícem +1

      Totally agree!

    • @dlm9090
      @dlm9090 Před měsícem +1

      Ya and somehow, Surge just FEELS bad. Other bad stuff happens, threat, damage, etc, but seeing Surge it just feels like Monday.

    • @Anondod
      @Anondod Před měsícem

      ​@@dlm9090 For me, it would be less of an issue if the surge cards were otherwise weak, I think, but in general I agree.

    • @grantporter8100
      @grantporter8100 Před měsícem

      @@dlm9090 just choked back a laugh … 100% feel this after playing Ronan this Sunday evening

  • @aaaarg7053
    @aaaarg7053 Před měsícem +14

    Our group has basically only used S2 since it came out. Reducing status spam on bosses has made things more interesting for us. Agreed that so much surge is not ideal though.

    • @VillainTheory
      @VillainTheory  Před měsícem +3

      Status spam is pretty insane, glad you've enjoyed S2!

  • @gnarlantlers70
    @gnarlantlers70 Před 26 dny

    Standard & Expert 2 make Cable's precondition and the Blindfold Ally highly valuable. Also - they make the game more like Arkham Horror at high difficulty where even with good play decisions you will still lose.

  • @TAC3O
    @TAC3O Před měsícem

    I wish we have more Standard/Expert sets with difficulty somewhere between Expert 1 and Standard 2. I feel like there is a big gap which could be filled.

  • @gavindalf2547
    @gavindalf2547 Před měsícem

    I like to say Standard 2 comes from Ronan's school of card design. I love difficulty in any game, and I definitely felt like Standard/Expert 1 were too easy, but Standard/Expert 2 were just way too punishing. I remember being so excited for GMW because I heard it was hard, but it was hard for the wrong reasons, and I feel like Standard/Expert 2 are the same. Surge just isn't fun, and the set overall is just too punishing and oppressive and I rarely have a fun time playing with it (and I enjoy playing on Heroic).
    Like you said though, Seek and Destroy is actually kinda fun. I wouldn't even be upset if it revealed your nemesis set, I just love seeing the nemesis minions (but now we have Standard 3 which is just better imo).

  • @cardsndice77
    @cardsndice77 Před měsícem +4

    What do you think about the idea of creating a standard 1.5 set by mixing some standard 1 and 2 cards together? The equivalent cards you show in your video could easily be swapped.
    Furthermore, I think that "Seek and Destroy" could also work as a single-card modular set, which you can add as an extra modular to any scenario to spice up the difficulty a little bit.

    • @VillainTheory
      @VillainTheory  Před měsícem

      The idea of mixing sets is fun. I'm not crazy about it here though with S1 and S2 since I don't particularly like any of the S2 designs being honest. I think the Expert 2 designs are really interesting though and could see myself swapping some of those in with Expert 1.

  • @user-qu4lf3ni5r
    @user-qu4lf3ni5r Před měsícem

    Great analysis as always. Surge for sure is not the solution to increase difficulty in enjoyable mode. I think that the developers didn’t find a better solution to balance the game (and obviously the villains strenght): heroic mode itself practically give “surge” to the first encounter card revelead. I understand that they cannot create new espansions totally different from the standard archetype…maybe they could do as for Arkham Horror lcg for the series of “Return to…”, revisiting the scenarios modifiing and increasing the difficulty of the encounter sets.

  • @ginothespacewhale593
    @ginothespacewhale593 Před měsícem +1

    22:25 I'd love to see some of your design's Villain!! "Standard V" and "Expert V"

  • @leoazevedoesouza
    @leoazevedoesouza Před měsícem

    Good job! Definitly interested in custom content Review to seperate what is worth using from what's not

  • @LosdominiosdeKang
    @LosdominiosdeKang Před měsícem +3

    Since Standar III came out, I usually play Stage II and III (known as expert) but with only standar III. I'll call it hybrid mode and, for solo at least, it becomes more manageable than old expert. About Standar II and Expert II I find it too much difficult from nowhere and really frustrating.

    • @VillainTheory
      @VillainTheory  Před měsícem +1

      That's fun! Makes sense, do what you want with your cards and have fun.

  • @Cable2023
    @Cable2023 Před měsícem

    I've been playing since day 1, and I agree that the complaints about how 'easy' the game was really reached a crescendo, one FFG must have heard, which I think resulted in Galaxy's Most Wanted, and this. I believe part of the problem was marketing; there is nothing 'Standard' about this. Perhaps it could have been branded clearly as some type of 'challenge pack' or what not. Similarly, I hope content is released in the future that is designed to be brutally difficult (or at the least, an expectation that you have access to most/all of the card pool to have a reasonable chance). For the most part however, I think most heroes should be strong and should win. Many enjoy winning, in my opinion. As for surge, I wish there was a hard encounter card limit. For example, with Mysterio (oddly, my the villain against whom I have the highest loss rate..really bizarre), I often run into surge runs of 5-8 cards, which is often crippling if not outright fatal.
    S2 is particularly unmerciful against solo players. It's simply too likely that even with main scheme clear of threat, that the villain can scheme out. I wish a future Standard set scales with players. One acceleration token/icon, painful in solo, seems mostly trivial in 4 player. An acceleration icon per player (or, number of players less one), might be an example. I also really enjoy inflicting status effects on villains, it feels fun (to me). Perhaps some environment card could prevent consecutive status effects, for example, or accrue counters for each status, where something very bad happens after reaching a certain amount.
    Overall, I'm glad it's an option in the game. I believe the more the merrier. But do I use it much? No. My main use for it is adding it to villains like Rhino that otherwise aren't too tough. Great video Villain, keep up the awesome work!

  • @DescryGamingMC
    @DescryGamingMC Před 2 dny

    Wow, thanks for the shout out.

    • @VillainTheory
      @VillainTheory  Před 2 dny +1

      You're welcome, I think that video is super important for the game. We shouted you out a few times on the earlier episodes of the podcast too, notably when talking about the harder difficulties/villains of the game!

  • @VillainTheory
    @VillainTheory  Před 2 dny

    I'm rewatching this in September for some reason and no one called me out for calling Night Nurse an upgrade when it's support. Do better guys!

  • @Rey_Plays_Games
    @Rey_Plays_Games Před měsícem +2

    It is certainly an experience playing Standard II and in some ways its harder than Expert (it makes the stun lock strategy harder)
    ..I regularly do Standard II playthroughs because I'm either a sucker for punishment or a completionist (i.e cant just let it lie in the box)....I'm probably both! Hahahaha
    I've found cards like Predictable Ploy, Get Behind Me or Spycraft tend to be more important to include...

    • @alberttaco3668
      @alberttaco3668 Před měsícem

      I would also say Target Acquired. I run it a lot, even in expert I, but I know must people don't. This is very solid anti boost.

  • @prufrock1977
    @prufrock1977 Před měsícem +2

    Before I could play The Hood, I had to move across the country, and I lost my whole collection. I’m buying a new copy at Gen Con, and I am excited to try out the game after all this time.

    • @VillainTheory
      @VillainTheory  Před měsícem +1

      Sorry you lost your collection but, on the flip side, welcome back! The game is the best it's ever been in my opinion

  • @bradymccann
    @bradymccann Před měsícem

    Having a difficulty rating would be amazing! I can’t wait to see your finished product

  • @AmbientFellow
    @AmbientFellow Před měsícem

    Yeah I do enjoy the idea of using S2/E2 to beef up weaker villains along with modulars. I also like how they make protection more valuable in multiplayer with cards like Black Widow and Target Acquired. I could see steady being fine in multiplayer so that there's less competition to status the villain but i'd have to play with it to know for sure. Haven't gotten my hands on Hood yet but I feel i'd agree that it'd be preferable to explore difficulty in other ways than surge.

  • @psovitzky
    @psovitzky Před měsícem

    Great video! Interesting discussion!

  • @kitsunin4690
    @kitsunin4690 Před měsícem +1

    Standard 2 is interesting. I actually think it's pretty good except in solo play. I'm thinking about why it is frustrating to play against, and I think the only real problem I have is that it increases the difficulty in large part by exacerbating the most unfair part of solo. Formidable Foe is technically more "balanced" because Confuse and Stun are overpowered. But it creates a big balance issue in solo play because it disables the only really reliable way to safely flip down to Alter Ego found in the Aggression/Protection aspects. And Dark Dealings just pushes this issue even harder, shrinking the tiny "safe threat zone" even smaller.
    I wonder, it might be pretty interesting to play with Standard 2, but add something like this effect to Formidable Foe: "The Main Scheme will only advance if it has threat equal or greater than its target threat value at the start of the Villain Phase."

  • @wkylegreen
    @wkylegreen Před měsícem

    Great insights! I have yet to try anything beyond Standard. I don’t see myself ever regularly playing Standard/Expert II; however, I think they add value to the game overall. It gives that hard mode for those who want it and force alternative strategies.
    I agree that setup/permanent cards are excellent additions to shake things up in meaningfully different ways. Hope to see more than that. Honestly I’d still like to see the other infinity stones get their own single cards like the Power Stone.

  • @saintmatthew956
    @saintmatthew956 Před měsícem

    I like the idea of just doing it differently. I think something a little more nasty but with rewards could be interesting. Imagine Standard 4 has villain side schemes but if you defeat it, all players get to reduce the next card they play by 2. Something like that could be fun.

  • @fandabidozi3191
    @fandabidozi3191 Před měsícem

    I use Standard 2 in every game. Because I put that extra SOTP card in my Standard 1 deck. 😇

  • @scottguiler
    @scottguiler Před měsícem

    The last time I played a surge heavy encounter deck I limited surge to a maximum of once for each player in each round .

  • @neojaw2192
    @neojaw2192 Před měsícem

    I too use S2 a lot, it literally spices things up for any villain; recently used with Mr. Sinister and came to hate him a lot, since a win for me is winning 2 games in a row

  • @metal_banshee
    @metal_banshee Před měsícem

    I for one would be very interested in seeing you go through some custom content! The custom content discord has tons of great stuff, and they’ve currently been going through waves of “community approvals” where they showcase the best stuff. I think it would be great to see you pick a couple heroes from those community approvals and just flip through the cards and react to them like you would a new hero article!

    • @VillainTheory
      @VillainTheory  Před měsícem

      I need to find my way into that Discord, sounds fun!

  • @dymektrejo2647
    @dymektrejo2647 Před měsícem

    Maybe now top 10 most devastating encounter cards? I wonder if you will place anything higher than Cruel Intentions

  • @adamholt5395
    @adamholt5395 Před měsícem

    Would a good "fix" for Standard 2 just be to remove Surge on all of the cards? That way you still have a feel for the original design and upgraded versions of 1, but without the brutal extra cards?

    • @andyn2854
      @andyn2854 Před měsícem

      You could change Surge to mean something like discard a card from your hand.

  • @Mat23
    @Mat23 Před měsícem

    😅standard II is the definition of not play testing a release enough lol

  • @Smoothjedi
    @Smoothjedi Před měsícem

    I remember one game, after some deliberation, I spent my whole first hand getting an Avenger's Mansion on the board. Then I got dealt Overwhelming Force in the first villain phase. Needless to say, I was not pleased.

  • @anthonypereira6369
    @anthonypereira6369 Před měsícem

    I like playing Standard 3, Expert 2. It makes it a challenge when one of those cards comes up. But standard 2 isn't fun somehow. Maybe the steady, but I do not know.

  • @guarism0
    @guarism0 Před měsícem

    Now that you explained the problem, what are the strategies to play against S2 and E2?
    What player cards become more relevant?
    What new strategies does it create?

    • @VillainTheory
      @VillainTheory  Před měsícem +2

      Those are great questions. I'll try and do a video on that in the future while I'm doing all this villain-related stuff!

  • @kristhomsen3059
    @kristhomsen3059 Před měsícem

    I agre that standard 2 servers a purpurs. I relly like that it's there not that i play it that often but like you said i like that there are a standard set for some of the easier villains that makes it more dificult (Kinda how i like that the infinity gauntlet can be added to all villains even though i don't offen do so)

  • @Champion_Leon
    @Champion_Leon Před měsícem +2

    When you are playing a match and the card you fear the most are the standard cards and not the villains. Feels like a design fail. That’s my opinion. I think if S4 exists, I want the S2 Mob Mentality effect to find minion or side scheme. This is a better design.

    • @Rey_Plays_Games
      @Rey_Plays_Games Před měsícem

      I agree Standard II isn't the best, but design wise the Standard cards facilitate the villains' effects so in that regard I still think it's valid to have some Standard cards as being potent..

    • @monoludico6166
      @monoludico6166 Před měsícem +1

      Standard II, expert II saved Next Evolution for me. Villains in that Box felt very easy. I wouldn't be playing against those villains If it weren't for the inclusion of expert and standard II.

    • @Champion_Leon
      @Champion_Leon Před měsícem +1

      @@monoludico6166 I just took out Hope. For Mr. sinister, I put hope back on the last main scheme by putting the side scheme out. For Stryfe, I also put the side scheme in play. That really just make it more challenging and didn’t break the game

    • @monoludico6166
      @monoludico6166 Před měsícem

      @@Champion_Leon Good ideas, but still I find that S II & E II make some scenarios more challenging again (not just Next Evolution ones).

  • @Izathel1
    @Izathel1 Před měsícem +1

    I play almost exclusively Standard 2. The game is way too easy without it. Specifically, chump blocking with allies is too good and overkill also helps with that.
    Hell, I have to use community fixes to limit numbers of allies in deckbuilding on top of that. I acknowledge I'm an Arkham Horror boy that only plays Champions because I don't have time for campaigns anymore, but I hope we get Standard 4.

    • @zzgrom
      @zzgrom Před měsícem

      Yes, I want to try it more. Expert is too easy. We have tried half Heroic - pretty good.

    • @bradymccann
      @bradymccann Před měsícem

      What are you looking for out of standard 4?

    • @Izathel1
      @Izathel1 Před měsícem +1

      @bradymccann Personally I'd like to see something with the difficulty of Standard 2, but more creativity.
      I'm not a huge fan of surge and I feel steady cuts out too many heroes that rely on statuses in their main kit.

  • @rickmel09
    @rickmel09 Před měsícem +1

    surge is annoying, that's about it

  • @scottdouglass2
    @scottdouglass2 Před měsícem

    I dislike Surge. I think it should have been split into 2 pieces: a rule and a keyword. The rule would be if you reveal an encounter card and it has no impact on the board state (other than putting the card itself into the discard pile), you reveal another encounter card. That saves text on a bunch of encounter cards, and makes it so that villains more consistently do things. The keyword should have either been something that goes on minor effects like incite 1 or take 2 indirect damage, or something that can only trigger once per hero per villain phase, but goes on full fledged encounter cards. Either of those options would reduce the risk of surge getting out of control.
    I dislike having Overkill on a boost effect. It feels like a cheap way to lose the game if you were relying on blocking with an ally. I think enemies making Overkill attacks should be part of the game, but it should be signposted to the player before they make their defensive decisions.
    I also have some issues with the way that conditions were implemented in the game.
    I agree that a better way to add difficulty would be to add optional modular sets that give Permanent Setup cards to the villain that give them an extra Acceleration Icon per player or build up counters every turn and do something every 3 turns or something like that.

  • @sedlak87
    @sedlak87 Před měsícem

    I hate lazy design. This standard II. set seem like a pretty lazy design. Standard 3 is better in all the ways.

  • @underthewronghat.0101
    @underthewronghat.0101 Před měsícem

    Two very bad game design mechanics are present here. First with many LCG's you're building up (ie. upgrades and supports), to get a sort of engine going. Anything that discards those just breaks the fun of the game, giving it a two steps forward and two steps back sort of feel on the player state (vice general board state which is always in flux). The puzzle here is a mix of building up while maintaining the board state. If you work hard to figure a way to handle everything while playing that expensive upgrade, and then it gets discarded --then it was all a waste. Wasted turns are just no fun at all. Second, speaking of wasted turns: stuns, exhausts, or skip your turn mechanics are bad for any game. Are we there to play, or to just sit and watch? If the players aren't playing, that's a bad game. There are notable exceptions in fast-paced games like UNO where the fun is trying to minimize what happens on your turn, and if you do get skipped, it'll be your turn again in five seconds, but in general --terrible game design.