Honing a Cylinder Block
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- čas přidán 16. 06. 2024
- Skip the machine shop and rebuild your own engine! In this video we look at how easy it is to hone the cylinders in your engine block.
Tools used in this video:
Cylinder Hone: amzn.to/2WY2lDe
WD-40: amzn.to/3ISbP54 - Auta a dopravní prostředky
First, keep in mind that this is a daily driver engine. The entire point of honing is to provide a little friction to allow new rings to wear to the "not quite exactly round" shape of the bore. If you didn't hone at all, you're still likely to have sub 0.001" gaps that some compression could potentially slide past. My bet is that on an engine like this you might be dropping 2-3HP on the floor - at the most. You'll lose more than that with not-quite-exact timing or a not-quite-ideal carburetor setup.
Internal combustion engines are simple and very forgiving in being able to run. If you're building a high-horsepower motor, then yes, things need to be exact to squeeze every drop out of them, but for a large majority of daily and street stuff, it's just not that critical.
I remember my early days of working on cars. I had plenty of time and not much money. I suspect there are plenty of young people out there that are just starting out and everyone saying "Take it to the machine shop!" and "Just buy aluminum heads!" is not helping them out. Can you go build a motor for $5k and make power? Sure. But you can also build one with less than $500. It's not going to have as much power, but it will still move just fine and the person who assembled it will have not just built an engine, but built confidence. They'll also intimately know how that motor works which is worth more than the cost of the parts.
I'm not showing how to build a mill for a 10-second car. I'm showing that engines are not magical boxes that you should be afraid of that you must pay mechanical wizards to work on. 95% of motors that aren't physically broken can be put back together in a garage with just basic tool, new rings and bearings and run for years.
To me, learning from some excellent engine builders and techs, Proper Carb setup and timing is a must, if you don't want a turd of an engine. Just something this simple makes a huge difference in performance, (among other things) of course.
@YoshiMoshi - quick question. Have you ever used ATF as a lubricant when honing? I've heard it works well and helps clean things up, too. Thoughts?
It would probably work just fine.
@@crxtodd16 To properly hone an engine cylinder (not like this hack does), you should use a constant flow of liquid. You could use a large quantity of water if you wanted so long as it is capable of flushing the cuttings clear of the stones and the block. Oil, any type, is best, so long as it is of sufficient quantity.
In the video provided, you will only achieve a broken engine that will start smoking very soon after assembly. That is because engine rings require a 45 degree cross hatch to perform properly.
And if you watch as he spins his drill at 8 billion miles per second, that is not what he achieved and whatever type of lubricant he was using he was dripping on the outside of the block (deck) and not on the stone 90% of the time.
Please do not do anything this guy does. He may have been a mechanic but that doesn't meant he was a good or qualified one.
And judging by his videos, he wasn't.
@R jD I'm an engine builder for gas and diesel. Especially powerstrokes. I run my own business. And lots of times I do this to them and they still scream like a bitch. Everything he said is right. The tolerances are only super pinpoint when it's a power upgrade build. A regular rebuild will be just fine like this. Dude knows what he's saying. You kinda don't. The cross hatch needs to exist and be decent angled but also doesn't need perfection
Watching this as I have a freshly pulled engine on the stand outside. The surprise at the end kinda sank my spirits a little.
I've done honing in tool & die shops, I think, you're running that hone too fast!
You get better control if slow done the drill!
Get a variable speed drill or even better, a drill press, where a stop can be set up!
So, no need to worry about running into the bearings!
Also, you need a bore gauge too, to measure out of roundness or tapering etc...!
Agreed slow down a lot you wanna do it gradually
Damn .. I was not expecting to see a crack pop up .. I’ll be watching on my build now .. thanks
oh wow, a stone hone chosen over the dingle ball hone for once.. WHAT A CONCEPT
Nice sound effect on that crack, made my day.
Nice video. Learned about the cracks. I am doing this on a motor still in the truck. Had possible head gasket leak . One cylinder seemed to get effected . Pulled apart 6 months later to see a tiny amount of suface rust. Freed up rings . Now going to just hit with honing tool for a few seconds . I have way to clean and keep debris out. I will check compression when i get heads back on. 83k miles on a 72 350 .
my friend great 👍 video and a good understanding thank you for sharing
I use a very old Sun boring drill and it’s really slow and heavy, have to hang it up. But it does a great job and cly looks so dam pretty
great explanation
Holy fast drill speed, slow it down to get a decent cross hatch! otherwise thumbs up
Hey, I need a crosshatch quick! I mean here it is only 4 months later and I'm still assembling the thing. LOL
Now everyone is gonna be dry honing there block with way to fast if a drill speed
Thank You.
If you ran into this video, you have probably read about 50 others about Honing. Although no measurements or tolerances are taken into account on this video; the concept and idea is legit and true: especially if its a virgin block that has been taken apart for the first time and never machined. The fingernail/visual/touch inspection works when done as described; comparing ring end of travel surfaces, to adjacent non worn cylinder surfaces that were bored and remained at the original size. I cannot fight against perfection, nor will I as neither the ball hone or the stone 3 fingered hone without a Torque Plate is going to get you perfection to within .0005" (as some keyboard purists will extol as needed) ; but the home engine builder or even the engine itself may not need the level of precision on cylinders that some may mention. One thing is for sure though; the ball hone otherwise known as the dingleberry will only fool you into thinking that your cylinders are symmetrical. The reason being is that the ball hone since it has no flat mating surface will hone every nook and cranny that it touches, so it will for lack of a better word "polish everything up" because it "blends everything it touches to sight". On the other hand the stone hone (especially the ones with larger longer stones; as in the video) will skip over low spots or scratches in the cylinder as Yoshimoshi was doing, and therefore "truing up the cylinder" (not to the perfection of a line honer or a boring machine; but is does do some correcting) The bottom line when honing at home with the stone honer will come down to how good you are not just in understanding with where you want to remove material to somewhat correct the OOR and Taper, but how good you will be in the mechanics of becoming the perfect machine while honing; spinning speed and reciprocating motion, blending from one area to another and measuring and then remeasuring; with the knowledge that after you removed every single scratch or pitting, you may be out of tolerance. Hell, you may still be out of tolerance even if the OOR and Taper check within spec afterwards since it was done without the torque plate; so basically it's a controlled machining operation with expectancies that can be attained with the result quality outcome based on the individual that is doing it; an undertaking only to be done by those who like to do things for themselves and take pride in doing so.. Which is exactly what I liked about this video. So for all the lacking of the scientific approach of measuring and of drill speed; it was certainly better and closer to having something work in comparison to other readings where it has said "Only give each cylinder about 6 passes till it looks clean" ... Yeah :) Keep on building them Yoshimoshi !
Someone told me just yesterday that my videos had "just the right amount of redneck." Yes, there are tools and machines that get more accurate and tighter tolerances, but I'm talking to the guy doing stuff in his garage with a small budget and typical tools. Your example of the torque plate being a great one. I see comments on how it's a crap job without using one and laugh. Of course it would be better with one, but on the average street motor built by the average garage mechanic what's the practical difference? Maybe 1HP. Maybe.
Just watched a Kye Kelly video of him working on a Musi 959 and saw what he does to his $125,000 engine.
He just runs a dingleberry hone in around 8 strokes.
A torque plate distorts the cylinders, some blocks quite a bit. So to make a round bore again with proper cross hatching pattern and depth, typically around 0.002" needs to come out. This amplifies an already out of spec bore. Using ball hones and these spring hones will not take an outa round bore and make it round, so the torque plate won't help. To make an out of round and tapered bore correct, a rigid hone is needed at minimum. One that when set, the stones stay parallel and and at their set diameter. Like the Sunnen micro adjust hone that uses AN stones. This is a hand held tool that is so efficient, even budget honing machines use them. Also, in industrial machining when we need a honed finish, we resort to the Sunnen micro adjust as it is the best hand held, adjustable solution available.
An engine is mechanical. So even when a poor job is done, it will suck in air and fuel, combust and repeat millions of times. That is why so many backyard "rebuilds" work. Take one apart after xx miles and compare with one done correctly and the proof is usually very obvious. I have no bad things to say about people enjoying the hobby and playing in their garages, building their dreams. I promote it, as it great entertainment and really does not effect us engine shops on any financial scale since every year we get dozens and even hundreds of engines to build anyways. Many are even failed home brews. What I do find a bit annoying is the amount of arguement from non engine builders or non machinists suggesting how it should be done and after personally seeing inside thousands of engines, can see that most of the backyard "how to'" guys never spent any time in actual engine building enviroments.
Basically, get in the garage and have a good time with your project is my attitude. But don't over think it. If your going to hand hone for a re-ring, then take your time and do your best. Just make sure to clean the block after really really good. Debris in the backyard engines is one of the biggest issues I have found when disecting them.
I hope my text don't make me seem like I am hating on your text or hating on backyard rebuilds. I swear I am here for discussion and not for saying/proving anyone wrong. I do have many years as an actual machinist and spent quite a few as an engine machinist also. So I have tons of experience but also an open mind to the hobby side as well. I know why we do and don't do things a certain way and not always when we won't do something a certain way means were saying it won't work.
What an excellent answer for the skeptic assholes out there !! Beautifully worded and well delivered lmao 😜 !!!!!
@carlospulido6111 No offense but your comment is really hard to read because it needs some paragraph breaks. It is what is know as a "walla text". Needs some breaks.
Drill seemed to be a little fast 😊
Have you ever used water and motor oil mix that turns in a white fluid when mixed for honing or boring cylinders ?
Nope, always used a light lube like WD40 or penetrating oil.
A variable speed drill would be ideal
All drills have variable speed.
Ima going to hook up a tach to my Milwaukee and consult the book on hone speeds. Doooooooooh
dingle berry stone lmfao hahahahahaha. man u made me laugh at that haha. its called a dinglestone lol
At first I thought this was a comedy channel. Then I realized this guy was serious.....wow.
The line between comedy and tragedy is blurry, indeed
Slow the drill down and go slowly up and down at about a 1 second count per stroke.
I was definitely going way too fast.
Also the finish depends on what kind of rings your going to run. Cast rings need coarser finish and more angle crosshatch. Moly finer finish less angle on crosshatch.
Will doing this change your piston size? Or do the piston rings compensate the shaft getting wider after honing it?
You won't take off enough to change the piston requirement. The ring easily expands to fill whatever you might remove.
Once this is done do you put just the standard rings or oversized???
Measure the bore to see.
czcams.com/video/uGT-wmIZ-PU/video.html
How course a stone to use depends on ring type.
What about putting new bearings on the maincaps and connecting rod?
That's in #3 of the 5.9 series. czcams.com/video/ntVV7Ia9Q1Q/video.html
@@YoshimoshiGarage Awesome!
Would fine stones and doing this procedure work for moly rings?
I wouldn't use moly rings with a hand honed block. They definitely require a more accurate crosshatch.
Move up and down faster straighter and lower drill speed
I am rebuilding my 5.9 motor. The cylinderwalls still have the cross hatch, but not all around. About 20mm are missing (allways to the outside/sparkplug-side). Should I re-hone?
Yes, I would. It needs to be there so the rings can seat
@@YoshimoshiGarage ok, thank you
Can even buy oversized piston rings for new honing rebuilds ?
Yes. Measure the bore and buy the appropriate size. If it's a self-hone, always use cast rings (not chrome)
The only way to know if it needs bored is with an inside Mike checking for taper etc( not your finger nail)
If you don't have a micrometer, you can also use a feeler gauge to check the end gap of a squared ring at different depths.
Did you cut to with ridge rimmer ?
Those Chevy blocks are soft and usually have a ridge
No, the ridge was almost nothing on this block
It's a small block Mopar... Not Small Block Chev....
what is the grit of the stones you used?
220 grit
So might be a dumb question, do you need bigger pistons after honing like you did? If you didn’t have a bunch of build up?
Not after just a home, no
@@YoshimoshiGarage thanks. I’m going to be redoing mine and everyone just says machine shop but the engine looks really good after a wipe down and such. Thanks again.
Everyone always seems to say "machine shop" but if you're refreshing a daily driver, not building a race motor, it's usually BS, unnecessarily expensive advice.
@@YoshimoshiGarage it had a lot of oil buildup from a leak onto the intake and it looks way worse. Pistons and valves all look good. I do appreciate the honest feedback. Saves me a buck or two
I knew the comment section would be lit hahaha
Note to most chebey guys. DON'T USE BALL HONE !
(nevermind, go ahead use one. you'll find out later)
title says cylinder block but you can clearly see this block has had the cylinders removed
I also drained the blinker fluid.
I spent over 20 years as an engine reconditioner boring and honing 3 to 5 cyl blocks a day and i have never seen a 3 legged hone in any of the shops i worked in but i have seen the results of backyarder jobs with them when they were bought into the workshop to be fixed and i would never use one at home now i am retired. For a home rering job the ball hone is king for ring seal unless the block needs reboring. Some of the comments on here from armchair experts are laughable especially the one about the cyls already being removed but most are right about the speed of your drill it is way to fast.
Is there such an animal as a "drop in Piston"? I purchased a new short block 350 from a Chevrolet dealership years ago but it's got dished Pistons and I want to replace with aftermarket flat tops can I do that without boring the cylinders?? It's only got maybe 1500 miles on it
@@mariocooldude9092 Yes you can just replace the pistons i am not right up with newer chev v8s as i am an Australian but i assume they use circlips now instead of the old push fit rods which would make replacement much easier. But what are you hoping to achieve i have seen people replace dished pistons with flat tops before without even checking the compression height of the piston and they have actually lowered the compression of their motor rather than raise it. Chev flat tops into a holden 308 was a popular mod done by bogans in Australia thinking they were getting more power by upping the compression but they were actually lowering it as the flat tops they were using sat around 040" lower in the bore. I f you are wanting to up the compression in a modern engine you will most likely have to get it tuned to modify the ignition timing to allow for the extra compression. To replace the pistons you need to know weather they are std or not if its a new block they should be. the 350 used to be 4.00" std bore size.
A tip form someone w a y smarter than me,,, after a few up/down strokes,,reverse the drill and repeat to get a true "cross hatch" pattern.
Think about it carefully...
I was wondering why you were honing that cracked block...
Great video! Love your channel. Wish you could snap your fingers with your hone's Infinity stones and fix that crack. Bummer.
I appreciate what you are trying to do, but I have always used a machine shop to bore if necessary and align hone the cylinders. The cost of honing is relatively cheap, and they have the equipment to align hone. The price you pay for the hone, and time, IMO would be a wash with the machine shop. They would also do it at the correct speed. If you were going to do this often in the garage, maybe it would be worth getting equipment to do it at home. I watch these youtube videos where the poster is trying to help and cut costs. But it seems like folks are stepping over dollars to pick up pennies.
@@YoshimoshiGarage - My point was you can still build on budget, but where and when to spend money is the key. Most recently I built a sbc 400 (406 now) and put in Lunati hydraulic roller cam and lifters. IMO it was plenty pricey but it was the right thing to do "while I am in there". To me the correct bore and hone was more important than the Lunati.
I appreciate the feedback and the time you took responding. It's all about the end goal, and maybe audience. Taking it to a machine shop is always ap option, but it's also not always necessary, especially for something like a daily driver. I took the motor after this one to a shop (because this one was cracked) and it ran over $200 for bore and hone. I was fine with that, but I remember building my first motor in high school and that would have seriously cut into money that was needed for other essentials like gas and beer. I also couldn't have done it on a Sunday night after work.
Wat size stone ???
I use a #220
@@YoshimoshiGarage ok thanks
deglazing :)
Buy a bore gauge honing a taper is a waste of time. Also saw a comment about kye kelly using a ball hone on his 959 bbc. You can do that when you are at the track and you know the bore is straight. It's not like he's doing it something with 100000 miles on it.
OLÀ. Não comento o que foi falado porque pouco entendi. O que me foi possível ver foi uma forma totalmente irregular de usar o brunidor de cilindro com excesso de rotação e o resultante erro de grau. Furadeira manual pode ser usada por "artista" . Não é ferramenta adequada para um serviço de precisão. ABRAÇOS... Roberto Udo Krapf
Omg ! Great way to ruin the block.
Jesus you cut all the ring whiteness marks out haha. I garantee the cylinders are probably 10 thousandths over
If I've learned anything from murder mystery shows it's "leave no witnesses"!
@@YoshimoshiGarage Brahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!! Good one. also? who wrote the book on ball hone or stone hone speeds? There has to be one, right? All these comments indicate there is one, somewhere in the Galaxy.
There are specific angles that are recommended for different ring face materials, so the speed is dependent on feed speed as well. But really, for a garage-built daily driver engine like this one, giving a surface to help the rings seat is really all that's required. This isn't an 800HP rocket, it's the kind of thing people have been rebuilding with cheap tools with success since internal combustion engines were invented.
@@YoshimoshiGarage Makes sense to me! So many comments over reacting IMO.
i LOVE the complete lack of measuring anything at all. excellent LOL also, 45 degrees? huh?? wtf who told you that? terrible !!
NOPE! never remove the ridge if using same pistons. naturally formed protection worn in by the rings from combustion temps, just a fine dingle/dunny brush hone its much better in honing up to the ridge to carry oil for sealing , we proved it with so many engines 4's 6's and v8's . compression and leak down test faired better than 30"over new bore. lol and your attempt!? love to have a temp gauge at that speed and no flowing wash!? grinding at the ridge what's the rest of the stone doing inch down? tiers good mpg. for an old girl
Ya, you wouldn't want to take it to a machine shop and have it done correctly. Not when you can have this guy F it up.
Exactly!
Not hone glaze breaker is not honing !!
120000 RPM on the drill will leave a perfectly crappy crosshatch. You will NEVER leave a 45 degree cross hatch for the rings to seat to. This not what you want to do EVER! The cross hatch is effectively 2 degrees which is a guaranteed way to burn oil from the first minute of runtime.
I hope everybody that watches this uses it as a video of what to NEVER do to an engine you plan to reassemble.
Cast rings are amazingly forgiving.
@@YoshimoshiGarage But it's still wrong. And wrong is never right.
Indeed! The rest of us mortals can only hope to always be as right as you. I'll work harder
thats because you are naming this procedure incorrectly. you are NOT honing you are DEGLAZING. a true honing removes layers.
Blind leading the blind….
It's ok, we brought along a deaf interpreter.
FYI a daily driver should be built as good or better than a nascar engine, drag engine whatever.
JUST TAKE IT TO THE MACHINE SHOP..HONING IS VERY IMPORTANT.. IF THE RINGS DON'T SEAL, YOUR DOING IT ALL AGAIN AND MORE...
honing cylinders yes glaze breaker no !!
@@kennethquackenbush8450 YOUR BORES HAD WEAR,THAT'S WHY YOU HAD A RIDGE AT THE TOP, YOU HAD NO ORIGINAL HONE THERE.. DID YOU MEASURE CYLINDERS BEFORE AND AFTER YOUR EFFORT ???... AND ALL I CAN SAY IS TO WATCH SOME TOTAL PISTON RINGS, TECHNICAL VIDEOS ON CYLINDER BORE FINISHES... THEN YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THE THEORY OF CORRECT HONING TO WORK WITH ALL DIFFERENT PISTON RINGS... THANK YOU
@@drcolster ALL CAPS? ALL THE TIME?
@@robeddy3722 1 FINGER.... EASIER..... YOUR A THICKHEAD, THAT HONE TECHNIQUE IS RUBBISH, WRONG,NOT EVEN CLOSE TO CALLING IT A CYLINDER HONE... EDUCATE YOURSELF.. ITS NOT 1920'S... KEEP WELL...
F/:$k! That’s why you don’t go up to far 😅
🤣
please stop using the scotchbrite pads for a serfacer!!! Ive seen over .060"" dips from those effing things. as well as car manufactures have band them from the service bays!!! that hone is about as good as the dingleberry neither is worth a poop, but they are good for cleaning the bores before inspecting. thats about all there good for. do not hone very much!!! unless you plan to have the block bored. yes you can eff up the bore with those. you may of been a lot better off getting a real hone from sunnen or lisle, the lisle is much better than what you have there, the sunnen is much better than the lisle and always use the correct honeing fluid!!! and never hone rough!! always use a fine stone!!! why do you want all the wear area gone?? your just enlarging the entire bore and misshaping it too. unless you are changing pistons and need more clearance you do not need to remove that. torque plates should also be used. look at how much the flex joint is bowed!! you now have a over sized wallered out bore....but it should be fine,ive seen oh somany like this, but that dont mean it's right., also turn the block so your going in&out easely not up and down. congrats you now have a bock that needs to be sent to the shop to be bored&honed. and yes it's common to see cracked bores.Ive seen many and sleeved many.with torqueplates&proper equipment.
That is a 'deglazer'.... it is NOT a 'Hone' !!!!! which a "Hone" is defined as having lateral control provision as well as a variable tension/pressure mechanism to control the cut.
Those just flop around tensioned by a spring ?
My point being.... that should NOT be used for any material 'removal whatsoever !!!!
it should only be used to 'scuff' up the cylinder walls slightly in order to provide some friction for ring break-in only..... which, since Manufacturers have now changed the methodology for moly adherence to Oil Rings... I highly doubt that can even deglaze sufficiently for re-ring anymore.
Thanks! I'll let all of the manufacturers of these, as well as brake cylinder hones, know that they're wrong.
@@YoshimoshiGarage I think you should phone... wherein they themselves will tell you exactly what I just told you ?
NOT reccommended for anything but 'DE-Glazing'
You win! Pedant achievement unlocked.
He isn’t doing this right! Don’t use this video! Totally worthless and wrong ! An oversized wheel cylinder hone is no better than a dingleberry hone ! You need a straight bar hone and a stress plate to keep the cylinder round !
To each his own. Thousands of daily driver and street engines have been rebuilt successfully for decades with both types of hones. We're not building an 800 horsepower race engine.
@@YoshimoshiGarage Agreed and not everyone has thousands of dollars falling out their pockets to spend on a machine shop, especially with the skyrocketing prices the last year or 2.
He's not boring the cylinder. Just scuffing it for new rings.
People are so funny about using torque plates, there's plenty of evidence out there to show you they aint worth a damn unless you're building a top fuel dragster. Why spend 2 grand on fully machining an old block when you can get a new short block for the same price? Learn to do shit yourself and you'll find yourself enjoying the fruits of your labor much more than having a shop build your entire car and you just driving it around like a grandma.
@@SemperMortemyeah 👍 100%