Jonathan Haidt: the political chaos isn't over yet
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- čas přidán 5. 07. 2024
- Accompanying article here: unherd.com/thepost/jonathan-h...
Podcast here: open.acast.com/public/streams...
Freddie Sayers meets American social psychologist and NYU professor Jonathan Haidt to discuss how the Right and Left positions have evolved over the past few years.
(1) Harm/care,
(2) Fairness/reciprocity,
(3) In-group/loyalty,
(4) Authority/respect,
(5) Purity/sanctity.
Those are the five moral ‘foundations’ on which, according to moral psychologist Jonathan Haidt, liberals and conservatives divide. In his bestseller 2012 book ‘The Righteous Mind’, the NYU professor made the argument that liberals tend to value the first two foundations over the others, harm and fairness, while conservatives value the others just as much.
But have the past few years, particularly the last 12 months, changed everything? After Trump, Brexit and now a pandemic, global protests and a contested US election we were curious to find out from Jonathan how - or if - the characteristics of Left and Right have changed. Is the new Left not rather more interested in Authority and in-group loyalty than they used to be? And is the prevalence of cancel culture and online censorship now a hallmark of liberal purity? How do these divides map across different generations?
We put these questions to Professor Haidt, and his answers were both unsettling and enlightening. Thanks to him for taking the time to talk to us.
Please get Jonathan Haidt and James Lindsey at the same time. I'll be interesting to see where they differ about politics, why, and how they reconcile those differences.
What are you talking about? They are leftists they have no difference of opinion.
@@yuriarlequim James Lindsay is definitely not a leftist, he voted for Trump, he's calling out the woke culture and wrote a book about it. He's about as far from a leftist as exists. Haidt is also not a leftist, he's a Democrat and a liberal, but he's not one of these woke dipshits
That would be a terrific dynamic, I would love a good, long conversation between those 2
@@chadjohns6955 James Lindsay believes in the same things that all the leftist want. Governament management of the economy, equality at all costs, the kind of John Rawls John Stewart Mill utilitarian liberalism, which is not liberalism at all. It is the kind of managed society that is always under the judgment of a burocratic body that tells if the level of freedom is generating the accepted, by this enlighted unelected burocracy, societal outcomes. He is very explicit in his world views.
And so is Haidt, he also agreeds to the utilitarian view of liberalism, which freedom should be granted to the level in which the professional class o burocrats and intellectuals likes the societal outcomes. There is no fundamental disagreement there.
And do not forget that both of these "liberal" intellectuals were nowhere to be found when this purge of free speech began because it did not begin now.
They are very afraid of the monster that they cultivated in university, the left, but at the same time that are the very least people capable of standing up to these people because fundamentally they believe in the same structural societal organization. Their fears is that it won't be them at the top anymore. Just go look at what Jonathan Haidt says about right wing speakers
@@yuriarlequim I guess I don't see it that way. So, almost every conservative I know that's well-read looks at John Stuart Mill's On Liberty as a foundational writing that many of the founding fathers of America would've been behind. I read the book myself, it was difficult as anything written in the 18th/19th century were, because the language they use, that old English is so different than ours today, but from what I gleaned, I just don't see it as totalitarian at all. Are you advocating for anarchy, or some extreme form of libertarianism that wants virtually no government at all, for the good or bad?
Freddie is a much clearer interviewer than most because he avoids buzzwords and cliches. He puts a lot of effort into articulating concepts as they really are -- you can see Jonathan Haidt's 'aha' moments even when they are in disagreement
completely agree - surprised that he hasn't been picked up by mainstream TV. An outstanding and always well-prepared interviewer. He does his research.
He asks questions in clearest terms possible, and thereby encourages clarity in his guests’ responses.
Yes, he does a good job. He would be wasted in the msm.
Probably would have more clout staying on the internet in this decade anyway
@@martinbaum5354Id say he hasn't been picked up for mainstream TV because he actually asks real questions and isn't just a partisan hack.
I'm a single college teacher used to teaching online and politically slightly on the Burkian/libertarian right, but if these lockdowns and governmental interventions that has led to extreme isolation for people like me is not a form of mental torture I don't know what is..! I'm sick of people with families always taking the side of lockdowns not at all able to empathize with the rest of us! We're a social animal and we're dying inside from this isolation, not to mention that our immune systems doesn't get stimulated!!
I'm a lot older than you (grown family) and really do understand that there are better ways to deal with a corona virus than continued lockdowns and universal vaccinations. Quite a few of my age group of friends agree with your sentiments but too many people have bought into the constant fear-mongering and deception.
Amen. Loneliness kills.
Please reach out to a friend. Humans are not intended to be isolated unless they are seeking silence for the sake of communion with God. This desire cannot be compelled or coerced by any government - although many try. Reach out and get out even if you have to sneak. This whole mess of isolation is intended to cause "disassociation amongst like-minded people". Get together and talk with real people.
@@amycraig3956 Beautifully and poignantly expressed.
Strange. In my experience its the people with families that want to open up and kill the restrictions with the single, younger crowd being the pro-lockdown side.
As far as the classical liberalism goes, those on the right are closer to it in many ways than those on the left in the US
Especially now. Anti war. Prison reform. No longer care about gay marriage. Realizing the failure of the drug war.
Same here in the UK!
I think James hits the nail on the head with the exhausted majority analogy. You will probably find the majority of Americans and Brits would align subconsciously with Classical Liberialism. There problem lies in the extreme arms of either movement dominating the narrative and subverting the reality of dominant thinking.
As a lifelong democrat and liberal I don't even think there is a democratic party anymore. Everyone has shifted so far to the left it is unreal. Then to gaslight Trump supporters and act like everyone did not see the undeniable fraud or at least the irregularities within this election is going to trigger something that will truly shock this nation. Not storming the capital to take selfies on Pelosi desk. Something that will be well planned55. After watching Trump and his supporters get mistreated and abused for the last 4 years to think it's over just like that is something I don't see happening.
@@adamzaidi1748 The rejection of almost all attempts to investigate the election result is a huge error on part of the Democrats. If there was no questions about integrity why not investigate... What replaces Trump could be ugly.
Haidt's book "The Righteous Mind- Why good people are divided by politics and religion" is one of my favorite books ever and highly recommended for everyone who seeks to understand this subject.
Seriously, everyone should read it if they want to understand all the divisions going on
People are divided because media divides them. We are not a divided country. We are a country with a divisive media. People who don't watch cable news are easy to get along with.
@@gladyskravitz1000 wow you hit the nail on the head, nice.
Its one of my most cherished items, everyone and i mean EVERYONE needs to read it. It helps you understand not only the other side but also your own. The media flames the fire but they arent the sole reason for division, we are tribal creatures after all.
@@evacope1718 Yep, if you understand the underlying psychology you can avoid being riled up by the media BS and help others do the same
Freddie, really impressed with your interviews. Keep up the good work... the truth is out there somewhere
Refreshing and open interview. No wonder people are loosing faith in the traditional media.
I'm not a well educated person, but freddie is one clever man, and so down to earth makes such a refreshing change.
I *am* a well educated person, and I agree with you.
He is one of the best at his craft in my opinion - he's very balanced and fair in how he interviews.
I wish we had more commentators/journalists like him as opposed to the dreck we have in the US.
I know some well educated people with zero EQ.
Well, if you understand and enjoy hearing him, you have to be very intelligent. People without that intelligence doesn’t enjoy shows like this.
I have a hard time putting our current day paradigm into these historical Liberal / Conservative labels.
I don’t see people like Biden / Pelosi advocating for change, they are preserving the status quo.
And that status quo isnt liberal. Smh
The trick people like Biden and Pelosi are pulling is to disguise the status quo as radical change. That way they can convert the Left’s moral foundations into perpetual power. What these shrewd people seem to misunderstand is that they can only play that game for so long before everyone catches on.
How long have Biden and Pelosi have been wielding power? How much has really changed in that time?
Agree. To me, a leftis is a person fighting for universal healthcare, free education, unions, minimum wages etc. = a «Jesus» (or a mother) fighting for children, sick, old, poor or disable people.
And the status quo is corporate tyranny.
@@ellengran6814 - Having the state become god is not what Jesus had in mind. It is the individual that gives and sacrifices that Jesus notes. You are being misled by communists in warping the word of God to their argument when that is absolutely NOT what Jesus said.
Freddie always provides a really insightful forum for the long-form interview. He is uncommonly fair to the individuals he has on his show and the independent sovereignty of thought and ideas. During this time of Covid, so much of the typical broadcast media add very little content or are openly hostile to countervailing ideas; unherd, on the other hand, embraces and helps make sense of many of the major issues of our time. The program is actually very balanced per topic, his guests range from the credible but obscure to real intellectual heavy weights, and his style of interview is always consistent with trying to make sense of what is happening, esp with institutional responses to the wide array of events of 2020. I like that more recent programming has widened the aperture to discuss political philosophy and cultural issues.
I vote for keeping your name - future archivists will come to view these shows as speaking for a very specific period. The show is epistolary in nature and yet analytic - a kind of media representation of our own contemporaneous Gulag Archipelago.
Well said!
The word marxist or communist wasn't even mentioned. Hmmm!
To me I see similarities with the extreme left.
How does he get paid?
@@Spacecat357 Teaching, writing books, and speaking.
Maybe Marxism is dead.
@@tangosmurfen2376 Quite the contrary, it's thriving. Classical Marxism, in the economic sense, is dead, but it's more sophisticated progeny persists thanks to the near omnipotent proliferation of Critical Theory throughout the academic disciplines.
While Literature is finally starting to extricate itself from beneath the corpse of Critical Theory, Law and "X" group studies are just beginning their love affair.
@@tangosmurfen2376 Cultural Marxism (equity and the destruction of the West and nuclear family) are actual goals of many popular leftist groups such as BLM.
I think he makes too many generalizations, especially about the right. There are plenty of well educated upper middle class people who are Republicans. His statement about people who own businesses being on the right and being against the lockdown and liberals working on Zoom being for the lockdown just shows that people getting a paycheck have much less to lose.
And most people who create actual physical value by working in the real world usually can't work online. Sure, there are podcasters, programmers, etc. who create value and work online. But it looks to me like most of the online work is in either the public or, moreover, the subsidized sector (which comprises most of the "economy" anyway).
@@Spacecat357
I didn't understand when you said "most of the online work is in the public sector". The public sector are (in the UK) people like doctors, nurses, teachers, bin-men, social workers, prison wardens, public park wardens and gardeners and as such have real jobs that don't lend themselves that easily or at all to online work.
The jobs that do very easily allow WFH are the ones in the financial sector, lawyers, accountants and generally people who have (in my mind) very little to do with anything real but are still paid vast amounts of money for their efforts.
@@myla6135 Your point is taken, Myla, and I see that I am referring primarily to the hundreds of thousands of bureaucrats employed by the gov't here, in the US. The military, academic, and medical industrial complex are all run by thousands of unaccountable bureaucrats raking it in working from home. They have titles like "Epidemic Intelligence Service Disease Detective". I live in New Hampshire, so many our firefighters are actually volunteers. We have widespread homeschooling, so many of the teachers are in the private sector. The teachers that work for the government work from home, paid by the taxpayers to send the students apps that indoctrinate them in communism. The social work and prisons are corrupt make-work programs that are contracted out to the private sector, with vested interests to maximize regulation and profit, with no performance measures. Fortunately Trump held back on the wars, so not as many soldiers are "working" in the middle east. Our national parks do have some employees, but there are a lot of volunteers maintaining them, as well. The legal and financial sectors are part of the subsidized sector, to which I refer.
@@Spacecat357
Thank you for explaining. I thought perhaps you were commenting from somewhere like the US and it was terminology rather than a difference in actuality that was the issue.
I have not come across the description of "subsidised sector" to refer to overpaid bankers and lawyers!
To be fair Bill, he's talking about data. He's a social scientist, so he is definitely talking in macro terms which are generalizations. I think he's very open to nuance though, and while I am more of a center-right person, I really enjoy Haidt in interviews, and I read his book the Coddling of the American Mind last year. It was terrific and very true
Never seen this podcast, but I really like the view from across the pond. Always nice to get a read on what's happening in my country from the outside. I'm happy he noticed how in-groupy Democrats became in the Trump years, they are NOT the party of open-mindedness or tolerance anymore. Surprised Haidt didn't think so to the same degree. Great pushback, great host!
Aphorism: "Teaching a population to be afraid for little reason is just as foolish or nefarious as not warning them sufficiently about a grave danger."
Thank you for your persistent attempts to bring more sense and reason in the "social" media world today.
"I wanted to help Democrats stop losing elections they should have won"
Looks like all you have to do is discard just a wee bit more morality and the problem is solved.
Or gain some actual concern for the wellbeing of citizens.
@@wolfster747Or, the means justify the ends.
They figured this one out. They don't need to win elections the usual way. They just need to rig them to give the appearance of winning and then wail to the high heavens about "disenfranchisement" and "sedition" when they're called out on their BS.
@@wolfster747 lol. So much concern they will deny the rights of at least 75 million Americans. They stole our right to vote.
@@wolfster747 imagine being this naive (or brainwashed)
"the political chaos isn't over yet"... No sh*t.
Just started... Right wing violence will rise.. Left wing violence will level up too
Lol
Unherd is better at asking questions than Haidt is at answering them.
Good questions are easier to work out than good answers-- that's simply the natural order.
It's a privilege and only thankful we have Freddie on You tube like this. He is an exceptional unbiased journalist. The various selection of esteemed people he has interviewed during the pandemic also bares this out. Definitely the go to channel especially during these times.
Coming up with questions is easier than coming up with answers. Going first is easier.
That's not a criticism of UnHerd or of you.
The questioner chooses the subject matter. The plaintiff chooses the cause of action and the venue. The attacking army chooses the battlefield. The pitcher chooses the pitch, speed, and location.
And all of these control the most important factor in any confrontation: the timing.
Whereas the respondent/defendant/defending army/batter is primarily concerned with reaction in real time.
Going first comes with its own challenges, but generally speaking it's easier.
dude what? haidt was articulate and thoughtful in his responses. if they didn't resonate with you perhaps you're not ready to hear.
@@ianbent0n He misses the mark like a lot of left leaning academics. His actual lack of real world experience is glaringly obvious.
41:30 "I guess in Europe you had the 30 years war that went on for I don't know how long that resulted in so much death..."
It's in the name, Jonathon.
Congratulations on landing Jonathan Haidt. Great interview. Here's hoping you'll be able to change the name of this series before the end of this calendar year.
ha hah aha ha ha ha ha ha ha - its never going to end
Wow! What a great segment.
I am well educated. I have a lot to commercial expeience.
Yet, I disagree with Mr Haidt on many points. That could be because I’m wrong and I’m open to that.
I found myself agreeing more with the subtle hints from the interviewer.
I will try to distill my key perspectives as succinctly as possible.
2. Mr Haidt doesn’t describe me in any capacity
2. I understand the radial left but who are this radical right he speaks of?
3. The left do not believe in justice for those disadvantaged ... if they did, we would ONKY focus on the poor... but this is NOT what the left do. The left are predominantly identity politics. In fact, they purposely trample some groups of poor people.
What I admire about Mr Haidt is that his views strongly differ from mine but he comes from a place committed to facts (which I consider rare today). I’d like to understand his perspectives better, however, we have many fundamental differences in our starting points.
There are things Mr Haidt says that make sense. However, it’s as if he was a radical leftist who softened and he’s carrying that baggage. I was centre left until that position shifted radically. The old centre left is now hard right.
Segments like this are fantastic. Rational discourse. So few places encourage this (especially universities that no longer rationalise well). Congratulations to the presenter for a solid performance. You were very careful to direct but allow Mr Haidt to express his views. Well done!
Agree, I believe Haidt did say at the beginning he was more left and has become more mod. That is because the truth shows the destructiveness of the left to a rational person, imo. Unfortunately it seems some radical rights wants some attention in Washington DC. Hopefully it will be resolved quickly.
are you both white? republicans have always been 90+% white
@@pazz2023 This is definitely not true anymore, Trump gained massively within the latino communities and Asians have always been more republican than democrat as I recall. Sure, blacks mostly vote democrat, which is weird as they keep voting for the same shit that they complain about.
Aphorism: "With a both political and popular movement moving the moral compass towards having the greatest possible safety, comfort, and security for all, we may unwittingly create a monstrous situation posing the greatest threat of all"
Corruption corrupts completely until there is nothing left to feed on but itself. We are almost at that stage now.
I’d argue that the “Woke” people would start very close to the center-left, and go all the way to extreme Left, with varying degrees of passion and intensity. Most of the “Clinton / Obama” Democrat fans I know profess at least some degree of “Wokeness”
Yes, there's *far* more nuance than what he describes here with his "center-left" vs. "far/woke-left" dichotomy. As you mention, most of the neoliberal Clintonite "centrist" types lean heavily into the "woke" identity politics as a way to pander, and also as a way to deflect away from more populist class-based analysis, which would actually harm the oligarch corporate donors (if it were ever actually implemented as public policy)....Conversely, while I would say that a solid majority of the "far-left" socialist types do embrace "wokeness," there are many who try their best to ignore it and to focus on more substantive issues, and a small but not insignificant minority that's actually openly hostile to "wokeness."
@@Bike_Lion Great analysis. I just hope we had more room for civilized dialog, particularly around the center. Lately I have been making an effort to listen to analyses both right and left of center, without going too far, of course. Thanks for sharing your insight.
@@mariano_buitrago - Thanks, and I'd largely agree. One caveat though that I'd add is that "bipartisanship" isn't *inherently* good, or inherently bad, but it really ultimately comes down to a question of "bipartisanship *to what ends?"*
We recently saw Josh Hawley and Bernie Sanders come together (along with Trump) to call for including more money in direct payments to Americans in the massive "covid relief" package (much of which was pork and other such BS), so I'd obviously see that as a positive and productive sort of bipartisanship. But too often "bipartisanship" has meant corrupt Dems and corrupt Republicans coming together to embrace more pork, more wars, more corporate welfare, and more loopholes for well-connected lobbyists.
Personally, I'm far from being a gung-ho "MAGA!" type, but I do understand why Trump appealed to so many working class voters who'd become disgusted with the corrupt bipartisan business-as-usual status-quo. The fact that the leadership of both parties hated him with such a visceral passion only added to Trump's credibility in their eyes!
Unfortunately though, Trump's personality, combined with the hysterical antics of the anti-Trumpers led to a situation where our society is much more polarized and to sort of positive and productive bipartisanship in the interests of the people seems more difficult now than ever :-//
agreed --- if you go back ~4 years, woke was on the fringe, but it has been thoroughly mainstreamed. It's kinda silly to say you're "anti-woke left" at this point, because none of the actual left wants anything to do with you.
Thank you Jonathan, thank you Freddie
While I'm not going to disagree with Haidt on what the moral vectors are, I am going to disagree with him about who holds what. I've been following this theory for a while, and I'm fairly certain that by the time he published it, it was no longer true, as the left is definitely very very concerned with ingroup loyalty, purity, and authority. And "equality of outcome" can't in any world be construed to mean "fairness".
Yup, 31:00 was edited
It's a good interview, but really it feels like a discussion over the arrangement of the deck chairs on the Titanic.
It’s only the titanic if we don’t recognise where we are going off the rails.
Jonathan said the left promote those disadvantaged and I strongly call BS on this. We used to talk of “supporting the poor” because social disadvantage is often linked to poverty. The modern left are hardcore into identity politics and ignore poverty all together. The old saying is “Oprah is oppressed because of her skin colour”.
If we don’t course correct to common sense, we are in serious trouble. So far, I see zero interest in course correcting.
I don’t understand Jonathan, I really don’t. I’d like to understand him better. Rational discourse... the absence of it today worries me deeply too. I say this as a person with multiple university degrees and a lot of commercial experience.
@@wb5036 I think his point was that the Left co-opts the angst felt by the poor. It's an old trick: identify those are or feel disenfranchised, then convince them that something other than the real issue is the cause. They mostly don't care if they get their outrage right, just as long as they have "someone" to blame.
Assuming you are on the Titanic, knowing in advance that you'll sink seems like useful information.
Unless you're just going to let the women and children have the lifeboats.
Which I, for one, will not be doing.
Let those hooers drown.
@@wb5036 I didn't know the Titanic even was on rails!
👏
Awesome: this was in the best tradition of UnHerd interviews, with challenging questions and lots of interesting responses. Keep up the good work!
Jonathan Haidt was balanced and fair-minded as always, but you can tell that he's far less familiar with the lockdown-skeptical science than those of us who have been following it closely. This is a huge casualty of the political schism - scientifically based reasoning that was skeptical of the coronavirus threat was totally drowned out, and now most people aren't even aware of it...
"Jonathan Haidt was balanced and fair-minded as always, bu"
Calling pro border control advocate racist? .. eeeh.. no.. that is not fair minded.
Jonathan haidts work the moral mind is more relevant than ever. Seriously, this man changed my perception and my life.
nauseated by the spoiled fruits of their leisure they've become afflicted with the deadly disease of humorless hubris
Wait until we allow to bring in their build back better,All together in a more open prison than we already are.
"The Great Reset", but to what?
Perhaps the Bush/Obama endless wars?
Or perhaps further to outright feudalism?
Terrific channel Freddie. Thanks.
i like Haidt, but some of the things he said make it very clear to me that there is no use for conversation anymore. There is no dialogue possible between the two sides anymore simply because they live in different realities and think that the other one is crazy or delusional. At one point he said as a side comment that it's insane to him that the election was stolen. There was a poll recently that showed that only 3% of trump voters think that Biden won fair and square, in other words there are over 70 million voters that think that Biden is an illegitimate president. Haidt seems to think that they are all gone insane, and this is a guy who really makes an effort to stablish dialogue between the two sides, he really tries to understand the other side, even so he has no problem diminishing or negating a deep and worrying griveance that half the country has. This won't end well.
I too found the Election comment stood out like sore thumb. He thinks he's fair, sincere and balanced but is casually dismissive and oblivious.
Coming from the left (NOT the woke kind!) and reeling after Brexit/Trump in 2016, I went on a learning journey in an attempt to understand better other viewpoints. Haidt was one of my best teachers. Can’t wait to read what he writes next.
So let me see, have I understood this correctly? The Right are rigid and authoritarian and the Left are open and tolerant.....really?
It's their caricature view of the world.
Haidt use to acknowledge this more... at one point he mentioned how liberals want diversity in everything except thought.... it appears he is turning his back on his own findings and previous positions, he is starting to become far more partisan.
Yes but he did not say that about the extreme left.
So from what I understand the most unintelligent in society are seeking to be in control through violence.
@@jeffsmith7369 The poor (not necessarily in wealth) has a tendency to elect leaders who will keep them poor by decreasing their chances of upward mobility.
Much respect for Haidt, but he's tying himself in knots defending the establishment here.
respect for white supremacist
@@pazz2023 liberals are white supremacists? Makes sense.
Haidt is the signal in the noise. I read his books more than three times each.
hes a white supremacist. try Jamelle Bouie and Adam Serwer
@@pazz2023 Hahah you are hilarious. He is a Jewish atheist. And you have not read his books. Good luck with your postmodern nonsense it will bring you anomie and desilusion
Dr Haight needs to get out of NYC some.
Wow, the academic world is worse than I thought.
Why?
Yep. Haidt is a good example of that. He either honestly believes that the democrat party believes in liberty (in which case he is ignorant beyond all reason), or he is such a bad liar that he believes he can convince non-democrats that what they read/hear/see coming from the democrat party is all just a delusion of the non-democrats.
JS Mill didn't advocate for concentration camps like NY is trying to legalize. Mill didn't advocate for destruction of the middle class through overly burdensome taxation & restrictions. Mill didn't advocate mass slavery in order to force provision of "healthcare" for landwhales who refuse to take any responsibility for trying to be healthy. And, last time I checked, Mill didn't advocate banning self defense, and robbing Americans of their firearms at government gunpoint.
@@harbingertheheretic3541 Jonathan Haidt is a well meaning guy and an accomplished scholar, but he lives in an ivory tower and the world just looks very different from so high above the ground and only if you're very quite can you hear the masses down there or J S Mill's cry from the past;-)
Henry Cavil’s brother is quickly becoming one of my favourite interviewers.
Freddie, you made a great attempt to tease some new thinking out of him but to no avail. Seems Jonathan might be stuck in 2012! It appears quite obvious that there are some massive changes happening in our world and our psyches in this moment. Oddly, he just couldn't quite go there. Sounded like the old partisan blindness might be creeping back in?
I wouldn't say that. I think he might be getting all of his news through CNN. He could be right... Depending on which set of fact you use lol
At minute 13, Haidt makes grossly-generalized statements about the two sides. "conservatives speak for institutions and traditions; want order even at cost to those at the bottom." That statement is the Right through the Left's language. It's like a cat describing dogs. Conservatives, like me, believe that those at the bottom can take the help they're given and make better choices--and it's been seen in many lives that this is true--and then they're not "at the bottom" anymore. It might take a generation.
But conservatives *do* speak for institutions and traditions. They *do* want order even at cost to those at the bottom. That is the historical meaning of "conservatism" for centuries.
The second part of what you say, which is basically that the order that conservatism conserves also ultimately helps the poor, is also true, and also part of conservatism. It's not at all inconsistent with preserving order above all - and Haidt doesn't suggest it is.
Basically what you are saying above is that, whatever the traditional meaning of "conservative" is, it should now mean what you want it to mean because you identify as conservative - you *feel* conservative relative to other folks out there.
And that - not anything Haidt says - is "the Right through the Left's language."
Think about it. You are calling yourself "conservative" on the one hand, while trying to shoehorn the definition of "conservative" to suit what you believe now, and using a version of leftist identity politics to do it.
I encourage you to think more deeply about what you actually believe versus what you say you believe. Ask yourself why some people on the right prefer to be called "classical liberals" rather than "conservatives." This habit of always questioning oneself first is the bedrock of critical thought. It comes with a cost, however: you may have to let go of labels when you find none of them quite fit.
@@cisium1184 you might be right. What most conservatives are trying to conserve isn't there any more. It would actually be change to get liberalism back.
@@kinghenry238 yes thats why we are seeing more conservatives advocating for freedom of speech and everyone left of centre-leftists seeking to control speech.
Excellent interview. Thank you. Re 1968, I came from a working class, Labour voting, home, where the value of money was understood. The zeitgeist for a teenager was intoxicating and fun. I bought a copy of Chairman Mao's Little Red Book and the Communist Manifesto. It then took about a month of watching entitled dummies prance around Europe breaking things that they could afford to replace, but we couldn't, to drive me to the Conservatism that defined my outlook ever since.
Too many antiquated labels which do not apply to current humans. These opinions are so beyond biased and tunnel visioned.... generalizations and lumping is into categories is a bit naive. Ugh.
@duane worth
Not so much bud.
He laid out (multiple times) the break down across both spectrums. Far left to the middle. Far right to the middle.
He spoke of university educated people and blue collar workers.
He spoke of ridged partisanship and of open minded citizens willing to receive opposing view points.
He even touched on the different definitions over the decades of both ‘liberal’ and ‘conservative’.
What’s the matter? You need your personal opinion to have a National category and party?
As a lifelong Democrat and liberal myself I completely agree with him. Not one thing he said was inaccurate. Democrats and liberals have shifted so far to the left and can't even realize it and is all driven for their hatred of the orange man. I have never seen so much hatred in my life. About 90% of it is coming from the left.
Researchers like to divide into categories the better aggregate data. They do this, while admitting its imperfect, because its actually useful.
Gen X once again completely ignored LOL-talking about moderate middle that's gen X-but it's not clickybait enough for media. Nuance is lost in the outrage machine (social media-especially Twitter!)
Or, as I call it: FaceBitter
The last generation to get the “put things in perspective” approach. This hill is ours to deee free defend.
Well I was trying to think what the traumatic events of my age 14-18 years were, and I really couldn't think of anything. The end of the cold war happened, but that wasn't traumatic at all. We might actually be the most well-adjusted generation because nothing particularly alarming happened.
I am always looking forward for Freddie interviews , no matter the time and/or the topics , it's an refreshing and frankly after a long busy day or night , intelligible , open and exiting interview give me hope for a better days and nights to come .
Keep it going , please Freddie & Team . Thank you and happy new year to all ...
Why did Covid not trigger the reflex of defending the homeland on the Right? That is the great mystery to me.
Thanks for the interview! Would be great have access to Unheard through podcast platforms out there - I would be able to consume more content! :)
Hi Jamie, thanks for your message. Podcasts can be found here: open.acast.com/public/streams/5fad6d24bc034454b53fe011/episodes/5ff5bd02d11a3c56e442dc7f.mp3
Enjoy!
This guy is still stuck on irrelevant caricatures about the right. But good job on the interview.
He is only 57 years old and already irrelevant. It seems to be a professor at an American university you have to parrot the same old dogma.
As well as caricatures on the left. Haidt still thinks Clinton/Blair/Obama are somehow on the 'left'. I mean, it's ridiculous.
My recollection of my political views back 30 years ago, when I was 22, just shows me how much I changed over the time thanks to a hugely better access to a wide, structured and sensitive information, through databases, archives etc. The idea that in average our worldview is forged and definitely shaped when we are 22 and doesn't change later on is a sort of determinism which is highly praised by academics, social scientists, specially in the English Speaking world because it makes possible to aggregate big numbers, but which scarcely reflects our plastic ability to evolve, integrate data and become conscious of what we were ignorant before, which is called our neotenian characteristics.
Excellent conversation, we need much more of these insightful discussions.
Freddie, you need to get Peter Bogosian on to talk about "the legitmation crisis" that Haidt sort of talked about without naming it regarding the politization of science and the increasing distrust of our institutions when "scientists" and our political "leaders" say "x" today but tomorrow say "not x," or tell us not to do a thing while they're out doing that very thing. Bogosian explains this problem very well.
AKA the cult of experts who get paid without performance measures.
@@Spacecat357 Aye
Unheard is back! 😁
Good interview, Freddie. You're getting there. Now you need to interview Robert Barnes.
This interview had so many insights.thank you!👍
These divides seem very old fashioned - seems like everything has flipped
His description of left's liberalism values just got SMOKED by the great social media purge that just happened.
I think the answer to that would be that they are not left liberals but represent the illiberal "woke" left, or at the very least are aligned with or pandering too the illiberal left. Then, when it comes to also shutting down Parler its easy to see a monopolist motive as well.
@@BlackJar72 Not politics? That's bullshit and you know it. Email services, app store, servers, flight services, social media, reddit, banking, all doing coordinated power moves to knock Trump supporter off grid AND deny any new platforms. Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining pal.
@@nomoresunforever3695 Dems shoulda "de-escalated" four years ago before going to war on us, and willfully undermining the President at every turn. Every Trump voter needs to wake up and use every means and platform to undermine not only Biden, but also treat Dem voters how they've treated us these 4 years. They are purging us from society. Conservatives must band together now.
Great interview. Rarely have I seen anyone challenge a guest so intelligently. The part about woke purity was spot on.
Excellent questions. Congrats for the interview, Freddie.
Totally agree. Freddie is so human and very logical in a gentle manner. So refreshing after all the sarcasm and rudeness in most interviews.
This guy definitely doesn’t understand the American right
Unless you completely understand the American right, how would you know?
He definitely understands the broader aspects of political behavior, which tend to be the same no matter what one's stated beliefs are.
He may not be current with how many Americans identify themselves politically. But then neither are many of those Americans themselves.
If you read Righteous Minds, I think you will be pleasantly surprised at how well Haidt understand the Right leaning population. He spends the first part of the book seeming like he wasn’t gonna be able to make it all the way to understanding. Then, it suddenly starts to come together in the last few chapters.
Beauty, yes Freddie ! Thanks for all your great conversations. All the best to you in 2021!
Freddie, my hat is off to you... I really like your soft, soothing, and rational style.. Great questions. Definitely following this show.
Haidt doesn't mention that the suicide rate in the U.S. among young people is high although the same as in the mid 1980s.
Great interview. Huge fan of Haidt. I appreciate your work.
Really benefit from your interviews, thank you
I object to this man being interviewed saying that those of us who believe in guarding of our borders are racist! 👎🇺🇸
Great conversation
Jonathan Haidt just lost a fan.
@Flap Jack He implies that authoritarianism exists only on the right. Freddie, to his credit, kept pressing that the far left is the current form of authoritarianism.
@@vicmartinez3711 The far left is "a* current form", just like the the American (don't know how far) right, just tried to overrule democracy, and is another form of authoritarianism. I'd be more worried about them if I was in America
@@Henriktranoy Try moving here and you will live the life of far left oppression.
@@vicmartinez3711 Oh, believe me, I have some issues with the extreme wokeness on the left in USA. As an example, in Norway, a 10 year old TV program was removed from TV this Christmas because of a "blackface" character. Was nothing racist of it, but some felt that due to 50 year old + American culture, we should not do that. Most people landed on the defence of the TV program, and it was re-instated. Most people think here that the woke movement is rather extreme.
But it seems that what we consider extreme right here is just right of centre over at your place. Europe was quite shocked already the first week of Trump, when he started with "alternative facts" And smearing all news he did not like as "Fake", and making journalists more susceptible to violence, etc, taking two of the main things warned about in 1984. And things just went downhill from there.
@@Henriktranoy Do you consider absolute freedom from the "government from making laws which regulate an establishment of religion, or that would prohibit the free exercise of religion, or abridge the freedom of speech, the freedom of the press, the freedom of assembly, or the right to petition the government for redress of grievances" as essential freedoms? I put that long phrase in quotes since those are words from the 1st Amendment to the US Constitution - the most important rights for any person in civilized society. The institutional media and the so called mainstream media here in the US and perhaps most westernized countries are simply propaganda machines for the either the view that makes them the most profits or the ideological bias they have. If you were shocked with the first few weeks of Trump's presidency, then the actions of the far left supporters, donors, and elected officials must be absolutely horrifying to you. It is to me. Enough for me to start putting my contingency plans just in case out all violence breaks even in the peaceful suburb I live in.
Wow - a lot to think about ❗️ an incredibly insightful discussion ❗️ Thank you both for sharing and teasing out so many perspectives 🌹
Very informative. Thank you for doing this interview.
Aphorism: "Far more dangerous than the coronavirus (or, for that matter, climate change) is the corruption of our institutions as moral bastions of society. Without these pillars of civilized commerce and behaviour, our fate will surely take the form of which Yeats speaks when he announces in his poem, The Second Coming: 'Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold / Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world.'”
Absolutely agree👍
"May you live in interesting times." Chinese curse!?
Finally someone said it. I am 67 years old and i am gobsmacked by how fearful some young people are of the virus. I would say i am the least fearful of my friends however i saw many elderly people over 75 out and about this summer not concerned at all about covid. They just wanted to enjoy their life and said they didnt have much time left anyway. I just want the world to focus on something else this year and no more lockdowns......as i am in one in Canada right now. Hopefully vaccines will open things back up. Have to say my mental health is not the best. Between the virus lockdowns and people in so many different groups and so angry with each other I feel the best of life has disappeared....
I wish you the best!
@@asdfg6626 🙏
Brillliant, once again. Thank you Mr. Sayers.
That was a good interview. I bleed so much for the youth and the children. We have lost much of the old school socializing over generations, which can make the young understand some of their everyday history and put it into the context of today all by themselves. They may be lost forever in a world of emotions over facts and a social media that rewards narcissistic tendencies.
As for myself, I have tried to research earlier pandemics as much as possible lately. No one in older generations that I asked, either in person or online, including my own dad, remember any bigger general restrictions during the Asian and Hong Kong flu's for example. There is not much documented and were only some outcry i media. It is believed that people were tired of crisis after the war in Europe and the authorities preferred a keep calm and carry on-mentality because of that. Today instead, it seems like people from all sides of the political spectrum, extreme or not, try to use the crisis only to get their points out. I hope we all come back to a common sense soon...
Even on the far left there is a difference between the woke and what has been called the "dirtbag left". And the debate on "class reductionism" vs identity politics. In Denmark we have 10 parties in parliament, and even then I can find it a bit difficult to find one I really agree with.
What's the "dirtbag left"?
@@squatch545 An example is the popular podcast Chapo Trap House that is very left and very critical of someone like Robyn D'Angelo (author of White Fragility) at the same time.
@@NilsSF I still don't understand. Who is calling who the "dirtbag left"?
@@squatch545 they've called themselves that. Google it.
Thoroughly enjoyed the discussion as someone trying make sense of WTF is going on in the USA , shame missed out on the Capitol Hill events but enlightening , very impressed by the interviewers balanced and guiding manner, thx have subscribed 👍
Thank you for your sane, and intelligent approach to this channel. I truly appreciate your style and scholarship in contrast to much we see out there. We need to bring all ideas to be accessible and you do that well!
Wow you got professor Haidt on!
wow!!
Do I detect sarcasm clucky? He's one of my heroes :D
I'd still really like someone to define just exactly what left and right mean. If we can't define it, we should stop using it. I don't think it means anything and can be used to represent anything.
Left- Advocates of change, with varying qualification's as to what and how much change is desired.
Right- Advocates of the status quo, with varying qualification as to why and how the status quo should be maintained.
It holds historically as well, except for blips like Nazism which would meet the definition of Left, but is classically considered of the Right.
The fact that the terms are so sticky and prevelent in society demonstrates they have value - they convey meaning that most people can understand. I do believe they are very low resolution terms however.
Left-wing ideology promotes top-down planning of society based on utopian idealism. The right-wing opposes top-down planning on the basis that they:
a)reject social engineering
OR
b) propose an alternative blueprint for society. Fascism is revolutionary and utopian, but because it contradicts with the current desire of the elite, it's right-wing.
Jonathan Haidt has a TedEd talk about this. He touches on it in the video you just watched.
"The moral roots of liberals and conservatives"
czcams.com/video/8SOQduoLgRw/video.html
I'll never forget a speaker coming from the John Birch Society to speak to my 9th grade class.Stuck with me forever..probably made me a liberal for life!
Great discussion, thanks
I am a great admirer of Haidt but once again where are all these Nazis at?
Pretty much everything he says about the right is wrong.
They were in the 6MWE shirts on 1/6/21
I think the last duality, of "pure/impure " has been analyzed in anthropology, notably by Claude Levi-Straus.
Can you recommend his works?
Jonathan's such a good guy. We desperately need more well-spoken, thoughtful people like him in our institutions. Keep it up dudes!
Again, another fabulous interview, Freddie.
America First policy in trade and in secure border has more to do with keeping American jobs and wages, level playing field in terms of pollution regulations & labor rights (China for example pollutes & uses forced labor) and safety/security reasons (drugs, trafficking & criminals). Haidt attributed this populism to authoritarianism based in racism, which is not an accurate generalization. I read Haidt’s Coddling of the American mind and I respect his work, I just don’t always agree with his conclusions. One thing I’d like to hear him discuss is if it’s not inevitable for liberal thought not to end in “tyranny of relativism” and absurdity/chaos. (I think that’s coined by Pope Benedict, not sure). Haidt talked about banning conservative speakers on campus but now we seeing safe spaces on universities banning people with white skin so that people with nonwhite skin can feel safe.
Agreed. But is there really anything wrong in also basing some decisions on race? Almost all other countries of color do in their immigration/citizenship laws whether it be directly or indirectly. Would Nigeria be the same if 50 million Chinese decided to migrate to Nigeria? No. And I bet Nigeria would not let that happen.
Maybe the "xenophobia" comes from the fact that many white Americans understand that the races are naturally different and those differences will exacerbate within larger groups. So when you invite mass immigration from 3rd world countries of color that naturally see the world as a group differently than the host countries population the only conclusion is that your country will change.
Why is it that White people that have migrated to other continents are called "colonizers" from a negative perspective, but immigrants of color that have migrated to predominately white countries are referred to as immigrants looking for a better life?
I don't think there is too much wrong with a country that wants to keep their racial majority the same. Practically every country practices that to some extent except white countries.
What is missing form the discussion is that Wokeness is the religion of the state and establishment in the US (and West in general)... Universities are it's vatican...
Thank you for another brilliant episode.
I listened to podcast. Having another listen to understand ideas and thinking better. Helpful seeing slides too.
Enjoyed listening to Jonathan Haidt’s book Happiness hypothesis. After hearing him express thoughts through a RSA channel. It’s extremely insightful.
There’s so much to unpack here...
Five moral foundations is an interesting model. Ironically, we’ve seen a recent rise in loss of taste.
Maybe we could explore how to increase our wholeness and fullness with taste?
Currently our most problematic disease is our persistent, almost scientific, need to divide ourselves and people.
Best guests, best questions! Thanks again Mr.Sayers you are clear and concise as always.
What evidence is Professor Haidt talking about at 23:00 when discussing that the politics of a person gets determined between ages 14 and 22?
If that were true I would still be a libertarian.
The American Revolution was a Right Wing Revolution. Now contrast that will all the failed Left Wing Revolutions. I'm losing more and more respect for Jonathan Haidt as this interview goes on.
Couldn't agree more. He has no clue what conservatism (constitutionalism) is about. Listen to him accuse Regan of roping in authoritarian racists. WTF?
The French Revolution was left wing, so was the Russian Revolution, the Cuban Revolution, the Mao Revolution, the Spanish Revolution, etc. Most of these were not "failures".
@@squatch545 . . . they were all miserable "failures".
Excellent interview. Thank you
The righteous mind is excellent, I've read all of Haidt's books and it's his best and most important. Freddie is excellent as usual.
I'm very pessimistic about America's future, but i live in chicago where the worst of the country is on full display every day.
I hope things get better for you. Your mayor looks useless from what I see.
Life has gotten better for some people because they dont have to comute ? The most out of touch comment about the lockdown ive ever heard
It’s true - there are definitely people, often middle aged, well paid professionals in secure jobs, who have saved loads of cash this year and are enjoying a better quality of life overall from not having to waste time commuting every day, and can spend it with their family or their personal interests instead. Obviously this doesn’t apply across the board. But for a not insignificant number of people, it’s spot on.
@@ruthacheson8604 Agreed, my wife is one of them.
@@hansmeiser32 Yes, the people I spoke of are known to me personally!
10:00 You might find that appearance of loyalty is due to the way they have become Authoritarian and that they know they will be fed to the dogs if they do not fall in line?
This is so surreal to watch, in light of what happened shortly after this.
Very interesting chat. Learning continues for me. Thanks