Forgotten History of Fort Davis Texas

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  • čas přidán 24. 07. 2024
  • Forgotten History of Fort Davis Texas - Exploring Fort Davis, we discover the forgotten history of an old military post and the small town that's named after it.
    About me: I grew up in a small town the Midwest. Now I drive America's backroads exploring small towns, forgotten places, local history and more!
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    #texas #forgottenhistory #fortdavis #forgottenplaces

Komentáře • 176

  • @recalcitrantradical7312
    @recalcitrantradical7312 Před rokem +21

    Sally, back in the day, as now I hear, there were women who followed soldiers. These people were known as camp followers. Rumor is that they were usually older or somewhat ill. Hope that helps, it is still a common occurrence in the Army. In WWII Patton issues an order that when a soldier was diagnosed with VD a letter was to be sent to his mother. fewer cases were reported. Officers row was officer quarters as fraternizing with enlisted was prohibited.

    • @SightseeingSally
      @SightseeingSally  Před rokem +4

      Fascinating! I didn’t know their were military “groupies” back in the 1800s. Thanks for clearing up that mystery. 🤓

    • @johnryan1798
      @johnryan1798 Před rokem

      General Joseph Hooker provided women for his soldiers. Now, they're generally known as Hookers, as the rumor has it.

    • @drewping2002
      @drewping2002 Před rokem +4

      As far as the mercury treatment the old saying went: "One night with Venus, a lifetime with Mercury!" Interesting that the Fort was still called "Ft. Davis" after the Civil War when they'd just spent 4 years fighting an army with Davis as Commander in Chief!

    • @clydekimsey7503
      @clydekimsey7503 Před rokem

      @@SightseeingSally there were many prostitutes outside ft mc kavett south of San Angelo. Been there? Its my favorite TX fort

    • @timdrain4027
      @timdrain4027 Před rokem +1

      Mostly whores. Whitewash it if you want

  • @TexasRusticMetalArt
    @TexasRusticMetalArt Před rokem +8

    I made the silver metal sign that hangs under the porch of the Fort Davis Drug Store. That was one of the very first metal art projects I made back around 2002. From that project, the Sproul Ranch contacted me to make several metal signs for their hunting lodge and for the Harvard Hotel they built next to the drug store. Fort Davis is my favorite town in Texas. My wife and I have made many friends down there because of the work we did for several years in that town. It's a great place to visit.

  • @WhispersFromTheDark
    @WhispersFromTheDark Před rokem +26

    I guarded the border several years ago in that area, and it was so intriguing to just sit there quietly and feel the breeze, close your eyes and 'see' activity that went on there 150+ years ago. The spirits are certainly still active in that area...and it's a wonderful place to visit.

    • @SoonerBear
      @SoonerBear Před rokem +2

      I agree. We used to visit my grandmother (dad's mom) In Pecos twice a year when I was growing up, which is an hour, give or take a few minutes. We'd go to Fort Davis, and tour the place. Lot of history there. Very interesting. I've been there probably at least half a dozen times, if not more.

    • @chrisnnh
      @chrisnnh Před rokem

      Good thing you were guarding the border. We’ve had several borders sneak off without so much as a by your leave. That said, I’m unaware of any borders running through Ft. Davis. We’ve camped there numerous times, I’m happy to report no one in our group was ever required to show our passport. Oh, and “Forgotten History?” How could anyone forget what they never knew? Jus’ askin.’

    • @STROONZONY
      @STROONZONY Před rokem

      Thank you for my service

  • @nealhathaway2004
    @nealhathaway2004 Před rokem +13

    I was born in Fort Davis in 1957 in a "clinic", because there wasn't a hospital within 80 miles. We lived in Balmorhea, some 30 miles from Ft Davis. Looks like it's improved some since then.

  • @MrSlikvee
    @MrSlikvee Před rokem +5

    Ft. Davis is an awesome place to visit. I have been there a number of times, being from west Texas myself. It never fails to intrigue me, the silence that surrounds the place. One can easily feel the spirits that still linger. There are a number of exhibits that display life in the fort all those decades ago. It was actually a very busy place and the town of the same name gives off an aura itself. The Hotel Limpia has been there a very long time. I believe that it was built during the second manning of the fort, around 1874 or so. It’s not extremely obvious now but Im sure there was at least one saloon in close proximity to the hotel. The current inhabitants of the town are very friendly and there are several B&Bs that can accommodate the weary traveler who may be inspired to visit this incredible remnant of an era gone by. Fascinating.

  • @dennissolsbery7846
    @dennissolsbery7846 Před rokem +2

    Sally, another treat that Ft. Davis does is that at a certain time of day, there is what sounds like men and horses doing marching and formation drills with a voice giving the commands. It is played over loud speakers on the parade ground which is the open area between the enlisted and officers buildings. My wife and I sat on the bench on the hospital porch and listened and if you closed your eyes, it was almost like you were there. It was awesome.

  • @pamlaenger6870
    @pamlaenger6870 Před rokem +5

    It’s amazing when I watch these historical videos and there’s a mention of a date like you just did. You said the fort was abandoned in 1891. My grandma was born in 1896. I get to see what life was like in the time when she was born. She passed away in 1970. Talk about seeing things change!
    Thank you for giving me a glimpse of times past.

  • @texasflood1295
    @texasflood1295 Před rokem +9

    Fort Davis is one of my favorite places to visit. The weather is almost always good and there are plenty of outdoor activities to keep you busy. I like to ride a bicycle and the loop going North on 118 and back along 166 is as good as it gets anywhere in the US.

    • @SightseeingSally
      @SightseeingSally  Před rokem +2

      My favorite part about this area is the view! So beautiful 🤩

  • @YamIa3gypsy
    @YamIa3gypsy Před rokem +17

    Great video, Sally! I wasn’t bored at all. It was fascinating! I never would have experienced Fort Davis without you. Thank you 🌸V

    • @SightseeingSally
      @SightseeingSally  Před rokem +2

      Thanks Vicky, I’ll take that as a compliment, so glad we could share this with you 😘

  • @TIM1948
    @TIM1948 Před rokem +5

    On break, I visited Fort Davis back in 1980 when I was working on a Geophysical crew out of Pecos Texas. Being a history buff, it was fascinating. I remember the museum the most; it was the most informative on the site...and...Sally didn't even mention it.

  • @makadutaarzola9453
    @makadutaarzola9453 Před rokem +10

    Thank you for doing a video on Ft. Davis. Lived their for several years and loved it. 💛

    • @SightseeingSally
      @SightseeingSally  Před rokem +2

      I can see why. Fort Davis and the area around it is really pretty!

  • @l.loganboswell1761
    @l.loganboswell1761 Před rokem +1

    Great place we lived there 29 years and raised 2 children and 4 nieces and nephews there. Miss it every day.

  • @richarda996
    @richarda996 Před rokem +4

    My first visit was sixty years ago. I remember walking into a adobe building, the difference between the desert heat and interior cooling was amazing. I enjoyed the review. Thank you.

  • @jackpalmer724
    @jackpalmer724 Před rokem +8

    Nice to see that the park system is restoring our history. Well done video. I like the music.

  • @paulajones9956
    @paulajones9956 Před rokem +2

    I remember climbing up on all those structures as a little girl and I'm 67 years old

  • @duanelogan9633
    @duanelogan9633 Před rokem +10

    I love the land out there Sally that wasn't your clothes hanging on the line to dry was it lol look like you were having fun there Marty do you ever take a long a metal detector Lord only knows what you would find Sally I love that history always a great job always a great creator you guys stay safe stay happy and remember don't drink the water 🏆🌺👍✌️

    • @SightseeingSally
      @SightseeingSally  Před rokem +3

      Lol it was laundry day so I was multitasking 👚😂 Thanks Duane that’s very much appreciated ✌🏻

  • @anamariacanata1597
    @anamariacanata1597 Před rokem +5

    Thank you Sally for this very informative and historical video!! I wish teachers will show this type of information in their history classes. Many including me never realized there are so many places in America, like in Texas. That still have semi ghost towns, or ghost towns, these are a True treasure and part of history, I have a vision of people if they like should move and start revitalizing with the housing and urban devopment, and rebuilding the old houses, and making it new developments, thank you so much for all your trips...

  • @hikingwithjackieboy
    @hikingwithjackieboy Před rokem +6

    This is one of my favorite areas of the state to visit. It is a great relief to visit there during the summer because most of the time you get a break from the Texas Heat. Thank you for sharing

    • @SightseeingSally
      @SightseeingSally  Před rokem +2

      It’s a beautiful area! And the weather in winter is pretty nice, especially compared to the typical Wisconsin winter. 😄

  • @markwilkerson9785
    @markwilkerson9785 Před rokem +3

    Loving these field trips! The music in the beginning is well thought out and gets the viewer into tour. Keep up the great work!

  • @rodneymoore7270
    @rodneymoore7270 Před rokem +2

    I served in the 2/9th Cavalry .... we called ourselves Buffalo Soldiers in honor of our history. We knew of the history of the post civil war black buffalo soldiers who were effective against the fiercest Indians in the American west. They in particular MOVED the fort away from the foothills of the Davis Mountains because Apache warriors would be able to approach unseen at night and successfully raid it till it was relocated to open ground. Those newly minted black Cavalry Troopers were smarter than the problem possibly because some were Civil War veterans.

  • @voodoo0202ify
    @voodoo0202ify Před rokem +1

    You are correct, it is called a "magazine" and yes, that's where gun powder and other items such as cannonballs are stored. And yes, a wood house is exactly for that, for storage of firewood

  • @kelly3560
    @kelly3560 Před rokem +3

    Lol Marty … yup. Thank you for sharing your adventures.

  • @oldtop4682
    @oldtop4682 Před rokem +5

    A magazine is indeed where you store munitions. Back then this would likely be the black powder stores for muzzle loading firearms, and artillery related stores. Normally, these are located well away from inhabited areas (as this appeared to be) and well guarded. Definitely a no smoking area (and still are).
    As for the STDs....This has been an issue for armies going WAY back in time. Someone mentioned camp followers, and indeed that's what they were. Generally, a town would spring up with sleazy bars, shifty shopkeeps and a cat house or two. And it didn't take long for them to show up. Some towns grew, and the camp followers generally moved on to the next place. Happened with mining towns as well.
    Some armies actually managed these things. The French Foreign Legion brought their camp followers and ladies of the night with them on campaigns in No. Africa (for instance - this is not restricted to that group). Still today, right outside the gate of any military installation you will find pawn shops, barbers, sewing shops, sleazy bars, strip clubs, and......hookers. Though, I will say, that this has decreased significantly over the last 40 years or so. (I spent over 20 years in the Army, so this is personal observation.)
    Fort Davis is now on my list of places to visit! If you get up to Wyoming Fort Bridger is an interesting place. Same kinda deal.

  • @onrycodger
    @onrycodger Před rokem +4

    Super cool 😎 👍New video!

  • @louisliu5638
    @louisliu5638 Před rokem +1

    That WIND. I never get used to it. So many of these forts from Oklahoma and Texas to Calgary, Alberta were right in the prairie wind all the time. Think of winter.

  • @luckytahlula6515
    @luckytahlula6515 Před rokem +4

    Loved the video. Thanks to you.....and Marty........and the pooch for sharing. I think you were correct on the wood and magazine buildings. Stay well and God bless you.

    • @SightseeingSally
      @SightseeingSally  Před rokem +2

      Thank you, I guess that means my memory isn’t so bad after all

  • @ellymeerleveldt614
    @ellymeerleveldt614 Před rokem

    Thank you so much for this awesome video Sally and Marty👍🤠

  • @glennfoster2423
    @glennfoster2423 Před rokem +2

    Fascinating information. My wife's last name was Musquiz and we know the family had a ranch along what is now Musquiz creek. I wish we had more time to visit. The history of the area and Ft. David is so important.

  • @steve7730
    @steve7730 Před rokem

    Yes, I have been here many times, Texas History Sally, this is a great place to Vacation as I spent time in 😊 Balmorhea scuba diving and Marfa visiting the lights at night time , lots to do in West Texas…

  • @earllutz2663
    @earllutz2663 Před rokem +1

    Thank you Sally, for another great video, and history lesson.

  • @Materialworld4
    @Materialworld4 Před rokem +4

    Love Ya Both! I gotta tell ya, watching your videos really makes me want to go see these places for my self, and that is testament to both of you.

  • @rle440
    @rle440 Před rokem

    I grew up in Pecos and visited Fort Davis fairly often. Great to see this part of the country again.

  • @stucook8622
    @stucook8622 Před rokem +3

    Thanks for another great video!

  • @Gyalog44
    @Gyalog44 Před rokem +2

    Thanks for beautiful video, will definitely tried visit in near future! God Bless & stay safe! 🙏🇺🇸

  • @paulm749
    @paulm749 Před dnem

    I've vacationed in and around Fort Davis a few times and find it to be one of my favorite destinations in the entire state. It's got beautiful scenery, history and small crowds. Hope you got a chance to participate in a star party up at McDonald Observatory while you were in the area.
    About that Chihuahua Trail - I searched and searched but never could find any signs of it. Locals couldn't help me either as none of them had ever seen it's actual remnants. Then it struck me: even during it's heyday that trail would only be 3 or 4 inches wide! Duh!

  • @gregboyden564
    @gregboyden564 Před rokem +1

    thanks for a very imformative video. really enjoyed the details of living as a soldier at Fr. Davis. would love to visit this place someday.

    • @SightseeingSally
      @SightseeingSally  Před rokem

      You’re welcome Greg. There’s lots to see here, plus there’s town and the state park close by, too.

  • @marjoriegarner5369
    @marjoriegarner5369 Před rokem +2

    Great presentation. Very interesting.

  • @mpojr
    @mpojr Před rokem

    Great job Sally really enjoyed this video learned things that l did not know

  • @dennisgrubbs1929
    @dennisgrubbs1929 Před rokem

    What a awesome video details everything wish I was close by damn Thanks 👍 safe travels 😊

  • @kellycoleman715
    @kellycoleman715 Před rokem

    Fun place to visit just 2.5 hour drive from Midland. Hike the trail above the old fort. Great views. Limpia creek runs behind it.

  • @terryderush2657
    @terryderush2657 Před rokem

    Seriously thank you 😊 for sharing this with us 🇺🇸 or just me. I truly enjoyed it.

  • @jefferyedwards5003
    @jefferyedwards5003 Před rokem

    Cool place...got to visit there last March.
    Hauntingly quiet with only a couple of other visitors there. Easy to lose yourself and picture the soldiers and their families going about their day.
    Nearby cemetery on the road to the fort have some of the personnel stationed there were buried.

  • @marcinasia1731
    @marcinasia1731 Před rokem +1

    probably a lot of great old bottles in those privies !!!

  • @virginiagross5836
    @virginiagross5836 Před 10 měsíci

    Venereal disease was probably acquired before assignment to the fort. Great video! Fort Davis is our favorite place in Texas. Maybe anywhere. We married there at the old Methodist church.

  • @TaipanTex
    @TaipanTex Před rokem +1

    Remember going there in the 1960s when I was a little kid for vacation to Big Bend National Park nearby. People who haven't been to this area of Texas have no idea how isolated and sparsely populated even today it is. I can only imagine in the 1800s it must have been like going to the moon or Mars. You had to be tough as nails to survive there.

  • @howardbilly4219
    @howardbilly4219 Před rokem

    The country of my people, love the place, might visit one day.

  • @garybryant6148
    @garybryant6148 Před rokem

    Outstanding video Thank you

  • @gerald9264
    @gerald9264 Před rokem

    Fort Davis Texas is a great place to visit. My grandparents lived here and
    worked at McDonald's Observatory,
    which is also a great place to visit.

  • @RioAbajoBelen
    @RioAbajoBelen Před rokem

    Marty: "Yup"
    Got to love it. ;-)
    Great video.
    Doug and Pam
    Belen, New Mexico U.S.A.

  • @jeromebarry1741
    @jeromebarry1741 Před rokem +1

    I visited the town of Ft. Davis July 4, 2004. My tour guide was a local rancher land grant inheritor. We attended a parade in Ft. Davis. As the decorated 'floats' drove along the parade route, people on the floats threw money to the observers.

  • @culturedape279
    @culturedape279 Před rokem

    Love it! History with a pretty smile.

  • @arthurmcgee4746
    @arthurmcgee4746 Před rokem

    Good video and a good area to explore.

  • @clydeprather941
    @clydeprather941 Před rokem

    San Angelo, TX. has another AWESOME restored fort!

  • @lesliegriffith9830
    @lesliegriffith9830 Před rokem +3

    Great video! You should see old Fort Union in New Mexico and Fort Laramie in Wyoming.

    • @SightseeingSally
      @SightseeingSally  Před rokem

      Thanks! I wonder… did Fort Laramie inspire the old western tv show “Laramie”?

  • @coolmoodee
    @coolmoodee Před rokem

    Looks like thats going to be on a to do list very soon.

  • @bradfordbarrettluckotheIrish

    Fascinating history

  • @Susan71105
    @Susan71105 Před rokem +2

    Many years ago, I would pass the exit for Ft.Davis. I always wanted to go there but never did.

  • @ahmedhumayunrasheed2434
    @ahmedhumayunrasheed2434 Před rokem +2

    Marty barking YUPP was cute and funny!

  • @master.of.reality
    @master.of.reality Před rokem

    Great video

  • @MS-ih8tg
    @MS-ih8tg Před rokem

    Well done. We live in Boerne Texas and 8ntend to visit the area soon. You should make a trip to White Sands New Mexico to see the Trinity site (first nuclear explosion) someday. Open two Saturdays a year. Wonderful experience to be at a place where history was made. Did the math with slide rules. Gambled that it might cause a chain reaction and destroy the earth's atmosphere. A few hours from El Paso. Enjoy

  • @dougrogillio2223
    @dougrogillio2223 Před rokem

    Fort Davis IS a small town. We really enjoy the area. We stay at the Indian Lodge within Ft Davis State Park. Don't bypass Big Bend, whatever you do.

  • @marjoriegarner5369
    @marjoriegarner5369 Před rokem +2

    You do a great job.

  • @michaelhager2846
    @michaelhager2846 Před 27 dny

    Thank you 😊

  • @jessemccullough6263
    @jessemccullough6263 Před rokem +1

    Just wanted to invite you to San Angelo,TX. We have" Fort Concho" which I'm sure you would like just as much or more than "Fort Davis".
    Hope you can make it sometime.

  • @brucelovenite
    @brucelovenite Před rokem

    amazing thank you

  • @JohnShinn1960
    @JohnShinn1960 Před rokem +1

    🤔
    Jeez.
    Thanks Sally, Thanks Marty.
    🤠👍👍👍

  • @45AMT
    @45AMT Před rokem

    Makes you realize how good we have it now.

  • @tomriggle3217
    @tomriggle3217 Před rokem

    I've been to Fort Laramie In Wyoming. Very interesting place also

  • @mikefluke3029
    @mikefluke3029 Před rokem

    Great video..have you checked out six gun Charlie's yet? It's north of balmorhea on 17

  • @vincentmaldonado3043
    @vincentmaldonado3043 Před rokem

    a trip back in time

  • @richarddegen6184
    @richarddegen6184 Před rokem

    Been there a couple times...very well restored and quite large! Town is cool also!

  • @JSB1882
    @JSB1882 Před rokem +2

    I never heard of that movie, "Dancer, Texas, pop. 81". I'll have to check around for it because it rates 6.8 on IMBd.

    • @SightseeingSally
      @SightseeingSally  Před rokem +1

      We watched it after finding out it was filmed in this area. I thought it was a fun movie, easy to relate to since I grew up in a small-ish town. I say small-ish cuz I’m quickly learning our “small” town wasn’t so small after all.

  • @dennissolsbery7846
    @dennissolsbery7846 Před rokem

    You're correct about the Magazine.

  • @David-vh8ij
    @David-vh8ij Před rokem +1

    I've been to ft. Davis a couple of times. It's so beautiful there. Did y'all go to Balmoreah state park near there? It has the nations largest spring fed swimming pool.

    • @henryrodgers1752
      @henryrodgers1752 Před rokem +1

      Crystal clear water! Swim with soft-shell turtles! Great place to picnic.

  • @carlosmontana8840
    @carlosmontana8840 Před rokem +1

    I stayed a night at the hotel Limpia, very nice, didn't really want to leave.

    • @SightseeingSally
      @SightseeingSally  Před rokem

      Looked like a really nice place to stay, I can imagine why you didn’t want to leave

  • @dvknauss
    @dvknauss Před rokem

    We went. There on 1967 was great

  • @1954shadow
    @1954shadow Před rokem +2

    M-A-R-T-Y!

  • @ahmedhumayunrasheed2434
    @ahmedhumayunrasheed2434 Před rokem +1

    Sally must be for Rio Grande and Mexico reason! Fort means army was present might be a small outfit but gotta be there!

  • @douglashall2141
    @douglashall2141 Před rokem

    I believe there were Tales of Madam's with a wagon full of her employees traveling from one place to another, partly because they were run out of town or they were following the gold. It's likely both were the reason. And the brick magazine, is your storage 4 gunpowder, ammo and rifles. But mostly gunpowder and ammo

  • @STROONZONY
    @STROONZONY Před rokem

    I love the way you say "kicked in dee abdomin by a hoyrse

  • @daviddaughenbaugh1080

    Grrrreat!

  • @justinbranden5275
    @justinbranden5275 Před rokem

    Come to Amarillo. Tons of history!

  • @rodneymoore7270
    @rodneymoore7270 Před rokem

    Post civil war soldiers used cased "modern" ammunition but they still needed to keep gun powder for cannon/artillery.

  • @chrisfaucette4085
    @chrisfaucette4085 Před rokem

    Fort Davis was also where the army carried out an experiment on using camels.

  • @davidcarlisle6244
    @davidcarlisle6244 Před rokem +2

    Officers get their own "Privy". Filling in for Marty He's walking the dog.

  • @ahmedhumayunrasheed2434
    @ahmedhumayunrasheed2434 Před rokem +1

    Sally as Heisenberg would exclaim mofw!

  • @robertbarnett7929
    @robertbarnett7929 Před rokem

    After the civl war the buffalo soldiers were stationed at ft davis and other forts there mission was to protect the stages wagon trains etc from Indians,Mexican Bandits,Texas Outlaw Etc.And yes V.D. was very common.

  • @ahmedhumayunrasheed2434
    @ahmedhumayunrasheed2434 Před rokem +1

    Mornin Sheriff Sally!

  • @shawnb4938
    @shawnb4938 Před rokem

    The magazine Is where you stopped by on the way to the privy.
    🤣 Just kidding. It is where the ammunition was stored.

  • @wrobinson1702
    @wrobinson1702 Před rokem

    Armies have had camp followers ever since there has been armies. VD and unexpected, often inter-racial, pregnancies, have been common issues surrounding militaries just as long.

  • @garyraines7511
    @garyraines7511 Před rokem

    One of the last Indian attacks occurred around 1880, an attack on the El Paso--SA Stage (enroute to SA).....a small band of Mescalero Apaches killed off the pasajeros.....Tx Rangers located the Mescaleros and dealt with them, but never found the Coach or passengers....Mescaleros are now running Ski Apache around the Ruidoso area. Are any of those restored houses for rent @ Ft Davis?? gl

  • @KarlMcCleve
    @KarlMcCleve Před rokem

    If you haven't been to fort Bayard New Mexico great place

  • @chars437
    @chars437 Před rokem +1

    👏👋

  • @johnryan1798
    @johnryan1798 Před rokem +2

    Dancer, Texas Pop. 81

    • @SightseeingSally
      @SightseeingSally  Před rokem

      It’s a cute movie, great to watch when you don’t feel like thinking too much

  • @thomaslockwood8870
    @thomaslockwood8870 Před rokem

    Comanches were the fiercest indians(I choose this term not native Americans git overit).
    Apache were scared. Get the book"Empire of the Rising Moon" tells the story of the last chief, Quana Parker. His mother was white, captured by tribe.
    Quana's son collected😊 artifacts. They're in a museum inside Crosbyton Texas. The greatest artifact collection I ever viewed. Go for it Y'all.

  • @christopherdawson6363

    Just an FYI, securing a route is a military mission.

  • @robertcolfack26
    @robertcolfack26 Před rokem

    I never knew there was a Fort Davis but I'm sure millions of people know nothing about Fort Hartsuff in Nebraska near Elyria

  • @dubyacwh7978
    @dubyacwh7978 Před rokem

    Somewhat ironic, that one of the first outpost for the buffalo soldiers, was at a fort named after the president of the confederate states of America

    • @georgederocher8202
      @georgederocher8202 Před rokem

      At the time of its creation, Davis was US Secretary of War , but yeah, it’s ..interesting

  • @charlesblount6858
    @charlesblount6858 Před rokem

    Magazine was a place they stored their ammunition.

  • @raymondmoore2707
    @raymondmoore2707 Před rokem +1

    Officers and NCOs often had their wives along with them. And there were laundry women etc.