It is very difficult to install the bonding and grounding system used for buildings. I have found that a large dimeter bare cable dropped into the sea with a metre immersed provides a very good ground. For a small boat I think these cables could be clipped to the shrouds prior to thunder and also to the mast a little way up from the deck and dropped over the side. All large metal objects and the electrical grounding busbars to be connected together, including anchor chain.
Too many through holes in the hull for my liking. I'd also try and keep the lightning on the outside of the boat, use ribbon cables because electricity runs on the outer edges of cables.
The most critical part is a surge protection device, an electronic circuit that shorts out positive and negative during the milliseconds the lightning is flowing through, preventing internal arc on the electronics.
One unsolvable problem with so called "lightning protection systems" is that there is no way to prove their effectiveness. How do I know that the system provides improved performance during lightning strikes relative to boats without the system?
I'm a believer that lightning strikes where it wants to, that giving it a path to ground is important. The vendor's website says, "An interesting feature of hull damage (from a lightning strike) is the tendency for sideflashes to form around about the waterline." I've seen damage from lightning exit in other places, specifically in the rudder when the strike traveled down the rudder post. This method has too many holes on the hull waterline for the sidearc mounts for my taste but I applaud the attempt to manage the strike.
There are several videos on this channel of projects completed on this boat such as the Monitor windvane, seacocks, forward scan sonar. I will soon upload an overall boat tour so you can check back in a couple weeks for that. If you have specific questions you can email me through atomvoyages.com
Only suggestion I would make, for the bolts made to the mast- the paint work around bonding area of the bolts should be removed to get a good electrical connection. Secondly, put some marine approved grease to prevent corrosion. The possibly place some insulation over these bolts to prevent touch or electric sparks to start a fire.
I believe surge protection is a good idea as mentioned below, basically an inline type before expensive electronics. This boat will be protected from lightning strikes , trust me. The conception that adding a rod atop the mast attracts lightning is not the case. I feel lightning strikes well grounded objects, which boats are not. I don't know how well water grounds but not like a tree on land i assume. Also, even though lightning as a bad reputation, it's really all voltage and no force or amperage... so if lightning does hit this boat the voltage will be snuffed out to the water very easily by way of the large diameter wires through out the vessel.
I'm sure the theory is to give the bolt an easier path to ground than making its own hole that will then let water in. Everything is a trade off but if you live in Florida like I do those extra thru hulls backed by scientific theory look quite inviting.
I am a little skeptical about this system. I would rather follow ABYC recommendations if I decide to install lightning protection system. Nice install though.
300 million volts, 30,000 amps... and only 2AWG cable? I'm far from convinced. I'd be looking for solid copper bar considerably larger... at which point it impacts the use of the boat.
I installed it but I'm no expert so my opinion isn't worth much, but as I understand it you would not ground the chain plates when you have dyneema rigging and just hope that the mast carries the current down to the grounding thru-hull near the base of the mast. Dyneema has a very low melting point so what is not known is if a strike will melt the splices near the top of the mast. I had a friend on a catamaran with synthetic rigging and a carbon mast who got hit and it exploded near the masthead out in the Gulfstream and left him dismasted and with holes in the hull, but he made it safely back to shore for a refit. With an aluminum spar and stainless rigging that probably would not have happened. Lightning is one more thing to consider when weighing the advantages, disadvantages and unknowns of dyneema vs stainless wire.
@Andrew Hodgdon all Boat builders should integrate a deep and extensive knowlege about potential lighting damage(s); eg., what to do during lighting conditions such as, "what to do list red alert". Every new tech, brings a fatal flaw some how....example, old sailors know that during said conditios at sea , the old 100 year old mechanical tech wonder, the diesel engine, must be running...as all modules (alternators, control module, starter) could get damaged, but the mechanical Engine itself will not stop and it will take u to your destination or back to your home port. I noticed that all OEMs are rushing to the new electronic tech space(c zone, electric drives, electric tables, electric bathrooms, AI, artificial Inteligence, GPS Charting with level 5 auto pilot...) ahead of preparing the ocean crossing mission for a lighting strike... This capsule is just what we need, congrats, it should be converted to a proposal for safety at sea.
Please correct me if I am wrong. Just for discussion sake... I have hardly any education on anything electrical but my gut instinct - if ever were to be challenged rigging up one immediately to protect my boat - I would connect a thick anchor chain to the mast on deck, lay it on scrap wood planks away from the side deck before dripping it with sufficient length over into the sea. Would that not help, say at anchor?
There are a lot of things that may or may not work to prevent lightning damage and much witchcraft thrown in. Something like what you describe has been a common method that seems to have merit. I doubt it's something you want to cobble together for the first time minutes before a thunderstorm arrives. You could rig it up as you described or maybe better to place a chain inside foam something like a pool noodle and clamp it to the upper shroud when needed. The foam will protect the topsides. Maybe easiest is to use a auto battery jumper cable that already has clamps. The untinned wire and metal clamps would be a corrosion problem long term but maybe you only use it occasionally and rinse it off and grease it up. I've done this a few times on my own boat many years ago.
@@atomvoyager Thank you very much. It is very helpful especially for sailors who are constrained by resource and finding a way round expensive equipment. I think we also need to ask ourselves how things were done in the good old days where practical methods do work based on sound basic theory. Of course, in most cases, modern equipment comes with lots of improvement. No denying that.
I enjoy your video's and glad you took on this particular topic. Did you jumper to the ships other systems (AC ground, AC neutral, cathodic protection, dc negative return)? I wonder if just the deep electrode near the base of the keel stepped mast would provide reasonable protection? That should cover everything above including the shrouds right but who knows, lightning is FM.
The boat already had those other grounds and bonding you mentioned and they were not tied to the lightning system thru-hulls directly. The connection from mast base and upper shrouds to electrode near keel should give some protection and is similar to what is used with a standard traditional lightning ground but the designer believes this gives better protection.
In the video description I list the parts cost as $2,100 and the labor about 25 hours so you'd need to ask your installer for their hourly labor rate. But yes, I'd expect it would cost at least $5k total.
Cost was $2,100 for parts for this 31-footer. You can see the cost breakdown if you click "show more" in the video description. For smaller boats the cost is a bit less and all the cables are more intrusive than on larger boats. But smaller boats are hit less frequently. Big catamarans seem to be the most attractive because of their large footprint.
It is very difficult to install the bonding and grounding system used for buildings. I have found that a large dimeter bare cable dropped into the sea with a metre immersed provides a very good ground. For a small boat I think these cables could be clipped to the shrouds prior to thunder and also to the mast a little way up from the deck and dropped over the side. All large metal objects and the electrical grounding busbars to be connected together, including anchor chain.
Too many through holes in the hull for my liking. I'd also try and keep the lightning on the outside of the boat, use ribbon cables because electricity runs on the outer edges of cables.
my thinking as well, the increased odds of sinking from a failed through hole are greater than the odds of getting sunk by lightning..
@@shaneshaw1895 The through hull of most concern is the knotmeter transducer. If this blows out from a lightning strike the boat will definitely sink.
The most critical part is a surge protection device, an electronic circuit that shorts out positive and negative during the milliseconds the lightning is flowing through, preventing internal arc on the electronics.
One unsolvable problem with so called "lightning protection systems" is that there is no way to prove their effectiveness. How do I know that the system provides improved performance during lightning strikes relative to boats without the system?
To be honnest, when I see this amount of additional through holes in the boat I start to think if I trade one problem with another.
I'm a believer that lightning strikes where it wants to, that giving it a path to ground is important. The vendor's website says, "An interesting feature of hull damage (from a lightning strike) is the tendency for sideflashes to form around about the waterline." I've seen damage from lightning exit in other places, specifically in the rudder when the strike traveled down the rudder post. This method has too many holes on the hull waterline for the sidearc mounts for my taste but I applaud the attempt to manage the strike.
Boy, I'd love to see a bunch more on the refit of that Nicholson!
Love your work and philosophy
There are several videos on this channel of projects completed on this boat such as the Monitor windvane, seacocks, forward scan sonar. I will soon upload an overall boat tour so you can check back in a couple weeks for that. If you have specific questions you can email me through atomvoyages.com
Only suggestion I would make, for the bolts made to the mast- the paint work around bonding area of the bolts should be removed to get a good electrical connection. Secondly, put some marine approved grease to prevent corrosion. The possibly place some insulation over these bolts to prevent touch or electric sparks to start a fire.
Good points. Actually we did sand off the paint in a small spot under the nuts that isn't visible in the video and did apply some dielectric grease.
Part of me wonders if that is not more of a "Lightning Attraction System"
My thoughts as well. I was partially okay with the theory until they stuck a 4 foot lightening rod on top of the mask.
I’ve thought about this issue (as a physicist) I believe it wouldn’t make any difference as to the chances of being hit. I think…
I believe surge protection is a good idea as mentioned below, basically an inline type before expensive electronics. This boat will be protected from lightning strikes , trust me. The conception that adding a rod atop the mast attracts lightning is not the case. I feel lightning strikes well grounded objects, which boats are not. I don't know how well water grounds but not like a tree on land i assume. Also, even though lightning as a bad reputation, it's really all voltage and no force or amperage... so if lightning does hit this boat the voltage will be snuffed out to the water very easily by way of the large diameter wires through out the vessel.
With this type of installation, if lightning does strike twice, could you time travel? My primary concern is that my sunfish can't hit 88... 😢
Wow! That is quite the comprehensive system.
Seems like a LOT of through hull holes.
I'm sure the theory is to give the bolt an easier path to ground than making its own hole that will then let water in. Everything is a trade off but if you live in Florida like I do those extra thru hulls backed by scientific theory look quite inviting.
I am a little skeptical about this system. I would rather follow ABYC recommendations if I decide to install lightning protection system. Nice install though.
That would be a mistake
@@peterswanson6774 Why?
300 million volts, 30,000 amps... and only 2AWG cable? I'm far from convinced. I'd be looking for solid copper bar considerably larger... at which point it impacts the use of the boat.
What if you have Dyneema standing rigging? Do you still need to run #2/#4 wiring from the lower/upper (Dyneema) stays to the circuit?
I installed it but I'm no expert so my opinion isn't worth much, but as I understand it you would not ground the chain plates when you have dyneema rigging and just hope that the mast carries the current down to the grounding thru-hull near the base of the mast. Dyneema has a very low melting point so what is not known is if a strike will melt the splices near the top of the mast. I had a friend on a catamaran with synthetic rigging and a carbon mast who got hit and it exploded near the masthead out in the Gulfstream and left him dismasted and with holes in the hull, but he made it safely back to shore for a refit. With an aluminum spar and stainless rigging that probably would not have happened. Lightning is one more thing to consider when weighing the advantages, disadvantages and unknowns of dyneema vs stainless wire.
@Andrew Hodgdon all Boat builders should integrate a deep and extensive knowlege about potential lighting damage(s); eg., what to do during lighting conditions such as, "what to do list red alert". Every new tech, brings a fatal flaw some how....example, old sailors know that during said conditios at sea , the old 100 year old mechanical tech wonder, the diesel engine, must be running...as all modules (alternators, control module, starter) could get damaged, but the mechanical Engine itself will not stop and it will take u to your destination or back to your home port.
I noticed that all OEMs are rushing to the new electronic tech space(c zone, electric drives, electric tables, electric bathrooms, AI, artificial Inteligence, GPS Charting with level 5 auto pilot...) ahead of preparing the ocean crossing mission for a lighting strike...
This capsule is just what we need, congrats, it should be converted to a proposal for safety at sea.
Please correct me if I am wrong. Just for discussion sake... I have hardly any education on anything electrical but my gut instinct - if ever were to be challenged rigging up one immediately to protect my boat - I would connect a thick anchor chain to the mast on deck, lay it on scrap wood planks away from the side deck before dripping it with sufficient length over into the sea. Would that not help, say at anchor?
There are a lot of things that may or may not work to prevent lightning damage and much witchcraft thrown in. Something like what you describe has been a common method that seems to have merit. I doubt it's something you want to cobble together for the first time minutes before a thunderstorm arrives. You could rig it up as you described or maybe better to place a chain inside foam something like a pool noodle and clamp it to the upper shroud when needed. The foam will protect the topsides. Maybe easiest is to use a auto battery jumper cable that already has clamps. The untinned wire and metal clamps would be a corrosion problem long term but maybe you only use it occasionally and rinse it off and grease it up. I've done this a few times on my own boat many years ago.
@@atomvoyager Thank you very much. It is very helpful especially for sailors who are constrained by resource and finding a way round expensive equipment. I think we also need to ask ourselves how things were done in the good old days where practical methods do work based on sound basic theory. Of course, in most cases, modern equipment comes with lots of improvement. No denying that.
Could you get lower insurance rates if you had this installed?
I enjoy your video's and glad you took on this particular topic. Did you jumper to the ships other systems (AC ground, AC neutral, cathodic protection, dc negative return)?
I wonder if just the deep electrode near the base of the keel stepped mast would provide reasonable protection? That should cover everything above including the shrouds right but who knows, lightning is FM.
The boat already had those other grounds and bonding you mentioned and they were not tied to the lightning system thru-hulls directly. The connection from mast base and upper shrouds to electrode near keel should give some protection and is similar to what is used with a standard traditional lightning ground but the designer believes this gives better protection.
so if having the marina install, be roughly around 5k or so including parts?
In the video description I list the parts cost as $2,100 and the labor about 25 hours so you'd need to ask your installer for their hourly labor rate. But yes, I'd expect it would cost at least $5k total.
How much is a system like this for a small sail boat
Cost was $2,100 for parts for this 31-footer. You can see the cost breakdown if you click "show more" in the video description. For smaller boats the cost is a bit less and all the cables are more intrusive than on larger boats. But smaller boats are hit less frequently. Big catamarans seem to be the most attractive because of their large footprint.